EDL In Birmingham Shown Where To Go By Mosque And Residents

by Guest Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:47 am

First topic message reminder :

The English Defence League (EDL) held a march in Birmingham on Saturday and if one photo has to sum the day up it is definitely this one.

EDL In Birmingham Shown Where To Go By Mosque And Residents - Page 4 C86ZpbDXUAEdypF

EDL In Birmingham Shown Where To Go By Mosque And Residents - Page 4 C86ZpbDXUAEdypF

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/edl-in-birmingham_uk_58e93ffee4b05413bfe36c87?90c&utm_hp_ref=uk

by Tommy Monk Mon May 01, 2017 10:22 pm

At no point in the video footage did the two stand in the position that the fake photo claims.

by Original Quill Mon May 01, 2017 10:34 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Breitbart is known for taking false or half-facts, leaving out substantiation, and turning them into the story. Tommy is doing that right here.

Tommy is saying that because no one has produced a video that shows the two principals together, ergo, they were never together. This, despite the fact that the still photo clearly shows the two together. In other words, he is saying that only the video is valid. To do this he has to allege the still photo is altered...but he offers no proof of alteration, nor even a plausible explanation of why. This is typical Breitbart.

Tommy is selectively acknowledging only half the evidence, and thereby fabricating his story. I call this, playing a Breitbart hand.

OK.
I took it more to mean that Tommy is accusing the press of playing a Breitbart hand by falsifying the photo, which he obviously believes they have done.

No, the war with the press is Trump's war. Breitbart News Network is the press. Your interpretation would be a self-contradiction.

Tommy has no evidence for the thesis that the photo is altered. His argument that because the two principals do not appear together in a video, the still is faked, is groundless. Why is the video any kind of standard?

There are standards of evidence for this kind of argument. Before you can accuse, you must have reason to suspect (called probable cause). Then there are various different presumptions based upon probabilities, and these have their own standards. Finally, the final judgement must have (depending on the question) anywhere from preponderance of the evidence (sometimes stated as 66% or more) to beyond a reasonable doubt, which you've heard of as the criminal conviction standard.

What the Alt-right (among them, Breitbart) does is completely ignore all the standards of evidence. They will plant a fabricated story on one website, and then quote it as their probable cause on the next website...and off we go. It's called bootstrapping because it simulates lifting yourself up by your own bootstraps.

Tommy has no probable cause to believe the still photograph is not genuine. It has been fabricated and played on some website, and tommy borrows that as if the appearance legitimizes it. Nowhere is there any kind of evidence.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 01, 2017 10:44 pm

I said the photo was faked before any video was posted... on the basis that the sunlight/shadows didn't add up and that there were other blurry anomalies around the edges of those in shot...

The video confirms my belief in photo being faked...

by Original Quill Mon May 01, 2017 10:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I said the photo was faked before any video was posted... on the basis that the sunlight/shadows didn't add up and that there were other blurry anomalies around the edges of those in shot...

The video confirms my belief in photo being faked...

The video confirms nothing. You cannot use negative evidence for support of a positive allegation.

As to your mumbo-jumbo about shadows, I don't see anything conclusive. My own interpretation says the lighting confirms the validity of the still; sunlight is behind the beautiful young woman, and so her shadow appears precisely as you would expect in the rest of graphic to the right. You would need a lighting expert to support you in the face of such clear evidence.

I see you don't have an expert. You have no evidence.

by eddie Mon May 01, 2017 10:54 pm

Quill I am guessing that the next time you post what you think, you'll be bringing along an expert.

No expert. No evidence mate. Razz

by Original Quill Mon May 01, 2017 11:04 pm

eddie wrote:Quill I am guessing that the next time you post what you think, you'll be bringing along an expert.

No expert. No evidence mate.

Go back and reread what I've said about standards. I am not making any allegations...so I have nothing to prove. I am simply saying that tommy has failed to offer probable cause.

Eds, you've got to use your head...where does it start? A statement or argument begins with an assertion. So the position of the person depends upon whether s/he is the proponent or the auditor of that assertion. As to this question, tommy is the proponent. The rest of us are the auditors of his assertion.

It might be nice if I had my own expert, but the theory of skepticism says tommy must prove his assertion. Until he does, we just sit back and maintain a position of doubt.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 01, 2017 11:06 pm

The video shows that the two were never in positions shown in fake photo...

by Guest Mon May 01, 2017 11:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:At no point in the video footage did the two stand in the position that the fake photo claims.

So why has not the EDL leader then denied it happened?

He admits it did happen.

Are you saying he is lying to make himself look a tit?

by Syl Mon May 01, 2017 11:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The video shows that the two were never in positions shown in fake photo...

The video didn't show the full days happenings Tommy.
The shadows on the pic are exactly where they should be.

by eddie Mon May 01, 2017 11:12 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Quill I am guessing that the next time you post what you think, you'll be bringing along an expert.

No expert. No evidence mate.

Go back and reread what I've said about standards. I am not making any allegations...so I have nothing to prove. I am simply saying that tommy has failed to offer probable cause.

Eds, you've got to use your head...where does it start? A statement or argument begins with an assertion. So the position of the person depends upon whether s/he is the proponent or the auditor of that assertion. As to this question, tommy is the proponent. The rest of us are the auditors of his assertion.

It might be nice if I had my own expert, but the theory of skepticism says tommy must prove his assertion. Until he does, we just sit back and maintain a position of doubt.

Quill, I do get what you're saying - it was the "bring along an expert" I was questioning.
If any poster said "oh I just got an expert to look at this and he said.." who's going to believe them?

Probably me actually because I never assume people lie.

by Syl Mon May 01, 2017 11:12 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:At no point in the video footage did the two stand in the position that the fake photo claims.

So why has not the EDL leader then denied it happened?

He admits it did happen.

Are you saying he is lying to make himself look a tit?

Good point . Razz

by Guest Mon May 01, 2017 11:14 pm

Syl wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So why has not the EDL leader then denied it happened?

He admits it did happen.

Are you saying he is lying to make himself look a tit?

Good point .

by Original Quill Mon May 01, 2017 11:15 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Go back and reread what I've said about standards. I am not making any allegations...so I have nothing to prove. I am simply saying that tommy has failed to offer probable cause.

Eds, you've got to use your head...where does it start? A statement or argument begins with an assertion. So the position of the person depends upon whether s/he is the proponent or the auditor of that assertion. As to this question, tommy is the proponent. The rest of us are the auditors of his assertion.

It might be nice if I had my own expert, but the theory of skepticism says tommy must prove his assertion. Until he does, we just sit back and maintain a position of doubt.

Quill, I do get what you're saying - it was the "bring along an expert" I was questioning.
If any poster said "oh I just got an expert to look at this and he said.." who's going to believe them?

Probably me actually because I never assume people lie.

I'm just modelling my description after the way it would be done in a court.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 01, 2017 11:32 pm

Where is this 'admission' Didge...?

Syl... shadows don't add up... man's front is covered in sunlight when it would be shadow if woman was standing close by.

by Guest Mon May 01, 2017 11:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Where is this 'admission' Didge...?

Syl... shadows don't add up... man's front is covered in sunlight when it would be shadow if woman was standing close by.

Where is his denial or claim the photo is faked?

by Tommy Monk Mon May 01, 2017 11:39 pm

Didge... you said "he admits this happened"...

So... where is this admission of his...?

by Guest Mon May 01, 2017 11:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Didge... you said "he admits this happened"...

So... where is this admission of his...?

The fact he has never denied it

Can you not work that one out?

Has he claimed the photo was faked?

No

Did he deny it happened?

No

Did he in fact state that she was the one confrontational, thus admitting it happened?

Take your time

by Tommy Monk Tue May 02, 2017 12:15 am

So you lied when you claimed that he had admitted the picture was genuine...!?

OK...

by Guest Tue May 02, 2017 12:17 am

Tommy Monk wrote:So you lied when you claimed that he had admitted the picture was genuine...!?

OK...

He did, he claimed she was confrontational

That is about as admitting the situation happened as you can get.

So why did he not deny this or claim the photo was faked?

Why did countless other people there including the Police and media not claim this was faked.

How many witnesses is that?

Hence the point Quill is making.

There is countless witnesses to the event and not a single one makes the absurd claim you are making.

by Tommy Monk Tue May 02, 2017 9:30 pm

So at what point in the video footage of the incident were the two actually in the position that the photo claims...?

by Original Quill Tue May 02, 2017 9:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:So at what point in the video footage of the incident were the two actually in the position that the photo claims...?

You assume the video covers everything that happened. Obviously it did not, as the still photo proves.

by JulesV Tue May 02, 2017 9:51 pm

I made a typo in saying the confrontation occured at 1:31, it occured around 1:41. In the general melee it's hard to pinpoint when. Is it really that important to you Tommy? EDL In Birmingham Shown Where To Go By Mosque And Residents - Page 4 2190311264

EDL In Birmingham Shown Where To Go By Mosque And Residents - Page 4 2190311264

I wouldn't have bothered to correct my error since the thread was virtually falling off the radar - it was last on the scrolling list. But since you bumped the thread again, I felt I might as well correct the error, and I have. Laughing

by Tommy Monk Tue May 02, 2017 9:59 pm

Still don't see any point that the two of them are as close as picture claims...

by Original Quill Wed May 03, 2017 4:30 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Still don't see any point that the two of them are as close as picture claims...

The still photo is the proof. I suspect the video camera was off, or the sequence has been edited.

by Fuzzy Zack Wed May 03, 2017 3:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Still don't see any point that the two of them are as close as picture claims...

You're really good at clutching straws. But I'm sure your wife tells you that all the time.

There's another photograph in the link below, as well as a quote from the EDL leader admitting he wanted to knock her teeth out:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/10/wasnt-scared-says-woman-faced-edl-leader-comments-lucky-got/

by Andy Wed May 03, 2017 3:18 pm

Love the statement that Crossland was mumbling. For an EDL member, that would be an articulate and eloquent speech. He is teaching Tommy how to write.

by Tommy Monk Wed May 03, 2017 9:43 pm

The picture was fake and the video footage of the incident shows that they were never facing off 'toe to toe' at all...!

by Original Quill Wed May 03, 2017 10:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The picture was fake and the video footage of the incident shows that they were never facing off 'toe to toe' at all...!

No evidence of that. The picture doesn't lie...whereas the video was probably turned off, or turned the other way. There are a lot of reasons why the video might not tell the whole story, but the still photo was pointed right at them and it gives irrefutable proof.

by Tommy Monk Wed May 03, 2017 10:37 pm

Bollocks!!!

The video shows the whole incident... the pic is a fake!!!

You can even see dodgy blurry areas around the spliced bits!!!

by Original Quill Wed May 03, 2017 11:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Bollocks!!!

The video shows the whole incident... the pic is a fake!!!

You can even see dodgy blurry areas around the spliced bits!!!

Apparently not, tommy. Seeing is believing.

You're doing what those police officials do after an officer gets caught in some wrongdoing on a phone video: "What you clearly saw with your own eyes...you didn't see!" They are so used to getting their way behind the badge, that they think they can buffalo the public into disbelieving their own eyes.

It ain't gonna happen, tom. It's in plain view. That lovely young woman is backing down the bigot with a wonderful smile.

by Guest Wed May 03, 2017 11:45 pm

Thorin wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:So you lied when you claimed that he had admitted the picture was genuine...!?

OK...

He did, he claimed she was confrontational

That is about as admitting the situation happened as you can get.

So why did he not deny this or claim the photo was faked?

Why did countless other people there including the Police and media not claim this was faked.

How many witnesses is that?

Hence the point Quill is making.

There is countless witnesses to the event and not a single one makes the absurd claim you are making.

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