Women’s March London: Thousands Take To The Streets In Startling Show Of Strength

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Again I have not discounted that leave voters would experience the same and would be classified with the no vote group. At no point have I discounted this and agree d with you. What you cannot do is work out simple maths. Of the non-voters, The non-voters are 13.8% biased towards staying in the EU. That means if all the non-voters voted together with the rest, leave would be the majority.
Has this sunk in yet?
Or do you need me to dumb it down further for you?

There's no need to be rude. We haven't finished discussing the issue I raised yet - those who allegedly wanted to vote to remain but didn't bother because they thought it was a done deal. Now the article suggests that some of them didn't bother because they would need to leave work early to get home by 10pm. For a start, even if they leave work at 6pm, how likely is it that it would take them four hours to get home? Secondly, the same thing applies to leavers who really wanted to make the effort. How many of them would think - oooh, it might take me several hours to get home so I'd best leave at 4pm?

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's no need to be rude. We haven't finished discussing the issue I raised yet - those who allegedly wanted to vote to remain but didn't bother because they thought it was a done deal. Now the article suggests that some of them didn't bother because they would need to leave work early to get home by 10pm. For a start, even if they leave work at 6pm, how likely is it that it would take them four hours to get home? Secondly, the same thing applies to leavers who really wanted to make the effort. How many of them would think - oooh, it might take me several hours to get home so I'd best leave at 4pm?

I am not being rude, I am just stunned at how you cannot work out something so simple.
You are simply not listening and repeating the same circular argument
You then introduce time frames, magically from thin air for work and no knowledge of where people live and commute from, which renders the views being made by you redundant and of no importance
What is important is that on both camps, people missed being able to vote
If the non-voters, were able to vote, then remain would be the majority

Seriously, when is this going to sink in with you?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I am not being rude, I am just stunned at how you cannot work out something so simple.
You are simply not listening and repeating the same circular argument
You then introduce time frames, magically from thin air for work and no knowledge of where people live and commute from, which renders the views being made by you redundant and of no importance
What is important is that on both camps, people missed being able to vote
If the non-voters, were able to vote, then remain would be the majority

Seriously, when is this going to sink in with you?

You haven't addressed the issue yet, you just keep going on about the figures. You need to actually think about what the article says and apply some logic to it. The voting booths closed at 10pm - plenty of time for people to get home without leaving work early. You then introduced some kind of "work commitment" issue which it doesn't even mention. You then refused to reply to my question re do you think that remainers are more likely to have had work commitments than leavers?

And demographics also change the scene. There are 750,000 new 18 year old voters each year and a balancing number of deaths, the vast majority in the 65+ range. The 18-24s voted 75% in favour of Remain, the 65+ group voted 35% for Remain. The 40% difference means that year-on-year, assuming the referendum voters stick with their choice, there will be 300,000 added to the Remain camp. The calculation is complex because the different groups had different turnouts but a Financial Times model has the Remain camp winning a referendum vote (ignoring all the non-voters) by the end of 2021.

Raggamuffin wrote:Didge, as you have failed to apply any kind of logic to the claim in the article, let's move on to the next claim re young people. Now he might have a point re the 1.5 million university students who had registered to vote in the town where they went to university and who might have gone home and so didn't vote. However, he doesn't give any figures re how many of those who were registered to vote in their university town didn't actually vote.

Raggamuffin wrote:Oh I see. You posted an article and now you don't want to discuss it. Fine by me - I've shown that the article lacks logic.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Oh I see. You posted an article and now you don't want to discuss it. Fine by me - I've shown that the article lacks logic.

I have discussed it and you are simply not getting it and hence why

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I have discussed it and you are simply not getting it and hence why

You're the one who's not getting it. I'm not necessarily disputing the figures, but you're not questioning the reasons that some people didn't vote, you're just automatically backing what the article says because it suits you to do so. It's easy for people to say afterwards - oh, if I'd voted I'd have voted to remain. It's what they would have voted for at the time which counts, and their reasons for not doing so.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You're the one who's not getting it. I'm not necessarily disputing the figures, but you're not questioning the reasons that some people didn't vote, you're just automatically backing what the article says because it suits you to do so. It's easy for people to say afterwards - oh, if I'd voted I'd have voted to remain. It's what they would have voted for at the time which counts, and their reasons for not doing so.

I do not need to question the reasons why some people did not vote, because there will be many reasons, but you keep failing to understand that nothing is set in stone and that people change their mind. For all the many reasons that people did not vote, the fact is, if they did, remain would win. So going off and inventing times when people leave work, based off no evidence and then even worse  not knowing the distance between where they work and live, discounting any knowledge of traffic, train, tube delays and cancellations. Made your argument lacking any evidence. What we do know is this effected both camps and that we also know that more non-voters are in the remain camp.

Now I have said my peace on this as its just going around in circles

Raggamuffin wrote:Didge, as you have failed to apply any kind of logic to the claim in the article, let's move on to the next claim re young people. Now he might have a point re the 1.5 million university students who had registered to vote in the town where they went to university and who might have gone home and so didn't vote. However, he doesn't give any figures re how many of those who were registered to vote in their university town didn't actually vote.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Didge, as you have failed to apply any kind of logic to the claim in the article, let's move on to the next claim re young people. Now he might have a point re the 1.5 million university students who had registered to vote in the town where they went to university and who might have gone home and so didn't vote. However, he doesn't give any figures re how many of those who were registered to vote in their university town didn't actually vote.

You would have thought university students would have more brain power...

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


Absolute rubbish!!!

Every person I speak to and I am speaking to the public everyday with my job would vote to leave again and many would vote leave who voted remain .

It really doesn't matter though because its done and protesting did nothing to change the result .

Tommy Monk wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Every person I speak to and I am speaking to the public everyday with my job would vote to leave again and many would vote leave who voted remain .

It really doesn't matter though because its done and protesting did nothing to change the result .

Yes that is the same as I have seen too...


Good to see you back!

Thorin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

You would have thought university students would have more brain power...

Brain power?

Did you mean intelligence or intellect?

Holy crap on a cracker

Many students are disinterested in politics and its easy to understand why
They are wrongfully cast aside as inexperienced to life and that their views have less value
Thus the only relevance to power here, is to empower our youth

Tommy Monk wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Brain power?

Did you mean intelligence or intellect?

Holy crap on a cracker

Many students are disinterested in politics and its easy to understand why
They are wrongfully cast aside as inexperienced to life and that their views have less value
Thus the only relevance to power here, is to empower our youth

Bit stupid to register to vote in one place and then decide to travel to another part of the country during voting day period... and then complain that they were unable to vote...


Voting to leave the eu was about restoring our democracy to us,that had been stolen by career politicians and given away without our permission to other unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Thorin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


Bit stupid to register to vote in one place and then decide to travel to another part of the country during voting day period... and then complain that they were unable to vote...


Voting to leave the eu was about restoring our democracy to us,that had been stolen by career politicians and given away without our permission to other unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

Voting was based on leaving, it did not require for people to vote to stay, as we are already in that.
Hence the absurdity of the vote
Leave should have been required to have democratically 50% of the eligible vote
It only received 38% of those eligible to vote wanting to leave
Which is certainlly not a majority of the British populace wanting to leave
The premise on the vote was to leave
Hence its irrelevant to ask people to vote to stay to something they are happy to be within
Hence why the leave vote can never be classed as a majority

Tommy Monk wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Didge, as you have failed to apply any kind of logic to the claim in the article, let's move on to the next claim re young people. Now he might have a point re the 1.5 million university students who had registered to vote in the town where they went to university and who might have gone home and so didn't vote. However, he doesn't give any figures re how many of those who were registered to vote in their university town didn't actually vote.

You would have thought university students would have more brain power...

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Voting was based on leaving, it did not require for people to vote to stay, as we are already in that.
Hence the absurdity of the vote
Leave should have been required to have democratically 50% of the eligible vote
It only received 38% of those eligible to vote wanting to leave
Which is certainlly not a majority of the British populace wanting to leave
The premise on the vote was to leave
Hence its irrelevant to ask people to vote to stay to something they are happy to be within
Hence why the leave vote can never be classed as a majority

It did require people to vote to stay.

You can't force people to go out and vote. If you insist that 50% of people registered to vote were required to vote to leave, all the remainers just had to stay away from the voting booths. Everyone eligible to vote had the opportunity to do so - they just didn't exercise their right.

Despite worries about youth turnout and confusion over student voter registration, research agency YouthSight found 87 per cent of eligible students at UK universities voted in the referendum. This was a higher rate of turnout than the general population of which, according to the Electoral Commission, 72 per cent showed up to vote amongst the overall confirmed electorate.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It did require people to vote to stay.

You can't force people to go out and vote. If you insist that 50% of people registered to vote were required to vote to leave, all the remainers just had to stay away from the voting booths. Everyone eligible to vote had the opportunity to do so - they just didn't exercise their right.

That is right, thy should be able to stay at home, when the referendum is based on the option to leave.
Hence why its not a majority of the populace that want to leave.
Only 38% of the populace want to leave the EU.
62% either voted to stay or had no view either way
The premise was on to leave
Hence why for a true democratic vote to leave, should have required over 50% of those eligible to vote
Hence those claiming the majority voted to leave the EU, is a fabrication
Only 38% did

Raggamuffin wrote:Anyway, it says here that 87% of university students who were eligible to vote did actually vote, so I don't think that being on holiday had much of an impact.

Despite worries about youth turnout and confusion over student voter registration, research agency YouthSight found 87 per cent of eligible students at UK universities voted in the referendum. This was a higher rate of turnout than the general population of which, according to the Electoral Commission, 72 per cent showed up to vote amongst the overall confirmed electorate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/brexit-eu-referendum-uk-student-vote-leave-remain-european-union-youthsight-analysis-a7154626.html

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Anyway, it says here that 87% of university students who were eligible to vote did actually vote, so I don't think that being on holiday had much of an impact.



http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/brexit-eu-referendum-uk-student-vote-leave-remain-european-union-youthsight-analysis-a7154626.html

Not all youths are in university, hence moot point
So about 300,000 uni students did not vote
How many non-university students?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


That is right, thy should be able to stay at home, when the referendum is based on the option to leave.
Hence why its not a majority of the populace that want to leave.
Only 38% of the populace want to leave the EU.
62% either voted to stay or had no view either way
The premise was on to leave
Hence why for a true democratic vote to leave, should have required over 50% of those eligible to vote
Hence those claiming the majority voted to leave the EU, is a fabrication
Only 38% did

What percentage wanted to leave? Those who didn't vote had no view either way, so you can turn that argument around.

You could also say that perhaps a lot of leavers didn't vote because they assumed they would lose anyway.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Not all youths are in university, hence moot point
So about 300,000 uni students did not vote
How many non-university students?

I wasn't talking about youths, I was talking about university students - which were mentioned in the article you posted, and which Tommy was also talking about. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What percentage wanted to leave? Those who didn't vote had no view either way, so you can turn that argument around.

You could also say that perhaps a lot of leavers didn't vote because they assumed they would lose anyway.

38% of he eligible vote wanted to leave
That democratically is not a majority of those eligible to vote
We are already in the EU
The referendum was brought to give people they chance to leave
They never achieved 50%+
Which is not a majority
What relevance does it have on leavers not voting in regards to obtaining a majority of 50% plus?

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I wasn't talking about youths, I was talking about university students - which were mentioned in the article you posted, and which Tommy was also talking about. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

and 300,000 did not vote, which all adds up, hence the irrelevance of your article,. as you are still missing 300,000 votes

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


38% of he eligible vote wanted to leave
That democratically is not a majority of those eligible to vote
We are already in the EU
The referendum was brought to give people they chance to leave
They never achieved 50%+
Which is not a majority
What relevance does it have on leavers not voting in regards to obtaining a majority of 50% plus?

I mean what percentage wanted to stay. You can't have a referendum where some people are required to vote and others aren't. That would be silly.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:

and 300,000 did not vote, which all adds up, hence the irrelevance of your article,. as you are still missing 300,000 votes

You don't know why they didn't vote though. Maybe they didn't care, or couldn't be bothered.

Thorin wrote:For someone who claims not to have voted on the referendum Rags, you sound awfully like a leave supporter to me

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You don't know why they didn't vote though. Maybe they didn't care, or couldn't be bothered.

Which is irrelevant why they did not, when the emphasis to obtain a majority is on the leave camp

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:For someone who claims not to have voted on the referendum Rags, you sound awfully like a leave supporter to me

I never claimed I didn't vote in the referendum.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Which is irrelevant why they did not, when the emphasis to obtain a majority is on the leave camp

Yes, it is irrelevant because their potential votes don't count. If you want to be counted, go out and vote.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I mean what percentage wanted to stay. You can't have a referendum where some people are required to vote and others aren't. That would be silly.

What relevance does the stay percentage matter, when we are in the EU?
Its about leaving the referendum, as to why such a vote was held
For a truly democratic majority would require 50%+ of those eligible to vote
It was only 38%
To have a truly democratic vote to lave should only have people required to vote to leave

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, it is irrelevant because their potential votes don't count. If you want to be counted, go out and vote.

I agree, you should go out and vote to obtain a majority to leave when already we are in something.
Its absurd to asl people top vote to stay in something when the emphasis is on leaving.
So again 38% who voted to leave is not a majority is it not Rags on those eligible to vote?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


What relevance does the stay percentage matter, when we are in the EU?
Its about leaving the referendum, as to why such a vote was held
For a truly democratic majority would require 50%+ of those eligible to vote
It was only 38%
To have a truly democratic vote to lave should only have people required to vote to leave

Because you can then say that less than 38% voted to stay and the rest either voted to leave or didn't care either way.

So do you take the same view re General Elections? If no party gets more than 50% of the total eligible vote, nobody should win?

You're never going to get 100% turnout anyway.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Because you can then say that less than 38% voted to stay and the rest either voted to leave or didn't care either way.

So do you take the same view re General Elections? If no party gets more than 50% of the total eligible vote, nobody should win?

You're never going to get 100% turnout anyway.

But we are already in the EU
The vote was on no leave
Again my point is on people claiming he majority of the British want to leave the EU
This is a falsehood as i have easily proven
Hence when people claim the people have spoken, its in fact a load of bollocks
General elections have more than one options, as there is multiple candidates.

So you cannot apply the same reasoning

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:



I agree, you should go out and vote to obtain a majority to leave when already we are in something.
Its absurd to asl people top vote to stay in something when the emphasis is on leaving.
So again 38% who voted to leave is not a majority is it not Rags on those eligible to vote?

So in the next General Election, do you think that Tory voters shouldn't be required to vote on the grounds that they don't want any change?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


But we are already in the EU
The vote was on no leave
Again my point is on people claiming he majority of the British want to leave the EU
This is a falsehood as i have easily proven
Hence when people claim the people have spoken, its in fact a load of bollocks
General elections have more than one options, as there is multiple candidates.

So you cannot apply the same reasoning

No, the vote was to stay or leave. The majority of people who bothered to vote want to leave. You can't include those who didn't vote as they forfeited their right to influence the outcome.

Even if there were only two parties in a GE, you still appear to be saying that only 100% turnout would be good enough.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So in the next General Election, do you think that Tory voters shouldn't be required to vote on the grounds that they don't want any change?

If you want to disqualify all the other candidates and leave it between just two of them
Otherwise it won't work
If one party was in power and one was challenging
Then it would work, people would only need to vote if they wanted change

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

No, the vote was to stay or leave. The majority of people who bothered to vote want to leave. You can't include those who didn't vote as they forfeited their right to influence the outcome.

Even if there were only two parties in a GE, you still appear to be saying that only 100% turnout would be good enough.

But we are in the EU, so the referendum was brought up for people to vote to leave was it not?
So only 38% of people eligible voted to leave
That is not a majority of the British populace
So those claiming democracy are claiming a false charge to stand by the vote
In fact we are backing a minority to invoke Brexit

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


If you want to disqualify all the other candidates and leave it between just two of them
Otherwise it won't work
If one party was in power and one was challenging
Then it would work, people would only need to vote if they wanted change

It still wouldn't work as you would have to assume that the previous Tory voters would still vote Tory as opposed to not actually caring. Also, nobody knows who voted for which party because it's a secret ballot, so you'd only have people's word for it that they voted Tory, and how would you collect that information anyway?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


But we are in the EU, so the referendum was brought up for people to vote to leave was it not?
So only 38% of people eligible voted to leave
That is not a majority of the British populace
So those claiming democracy are claiming a false charge to stand by the vote
In fact we are backing a minority to invoke Brexit

It was brought up to leave or stay. If you only made leavers vote, you'd have to assume that everyone else who didn't vote wanted to stay, and that wouldn't necessarily be true.