Adidas – Break Free

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXfLl3qYy0k

I'm sure it's not the intention....but I found that really depressing.

Syl wrote:I'm sure it's not the intention....but I found that really depressing.

I found this enlightening.
For one reason. If we saw children being treated this way, we would rightly claim child abuse and yet we allow the elderly to be abused daily in homes, when many of their very freedoms are taken away.

Why is it we rightly are angered when children are neglected, but with the elderly. It never generates the same anger?

I agree its depressing to watch Syl and for one reason. Why do we sit by and allow people who have given to their nation all their lives to to be cast aside so easily?

Its appalling in my eyes and we should be ashamed how we easily can and often do cast aside the elderly.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:I'm sure it's not the intention....but I found that really depressing.

I found this enlightening.
For one reason. If we saw children being treated this way, we would rightly claim child abuse and yet we allow the elderly to be abused daily in homes, when many of their very freedoms are taken away.

Why is it we rightly are angered when children are neglected, but with the elderly. It never generates the same anger?

I agree its depressing to watch Syl and for one reason. Why do we sit by and allow people who have given to their nation all their lives to to be cast aside so easily?

Its appalling in my eyes and we should be ashamed how we easily can and often do cast aside the elderly.

I agree if we allow our old folk to be ill treated we should be ashamed of ourselves.
I have seen first hand how some old people are abandoned when they can no longer take care of themselves, I also know some care homes are horrible places....some, not all.

The hard facts are that many older people need the safety and the care of being looked after professionally 24/7....and that's not something many people can manage or afford at home.
The problems arise when the care homes don't care enough....so the responsibility MUST be with the family to make sure they get the care they need....and the authorities have to weed out the bad from the good.....and train people to care properly, not pay minimum wage to 'carers' who are there because they cant do anything else.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I found this enlightening.
For one reason. If we saw children being treated this way, we would rightly claim child abuse and yet we allow the elderly to be abused daily in homes, when many of their very freedoms are taken away.

Why is it we rightly are angered when children are neglected, but with the elderly. It never generates the same anger?

I agree its depressing to watch Syl and for one reason. Why do we sit by and allow people who have given to their nation all their lives to to be cast aside so easily?

Its appalling in my eyes and we should be ashamed how we easily can and often do cast aside the elderly.

I agree if we allow our old folk to be ill treated we should be ashamed of ourselves.
I have seen first hand how some old people are abandoned when they can no longer take care of themselves, I also know some care homes are horrible places....some, not all.

The hard facts are that many older people need the safety and the care of being looked after professionally 24/7....and that's not something many people can manage or afford at home.
The problems arise when the care homes don't care enough....so the responsibility MUST be with the family to make sure they get the care they need....and the authorities have to weed out the bad from the good.....and train people to care properly, not pay minimum wage to 'carers' who are there because they cant do anything else.

I think the root cause first stops with family.
Now we have as people so many things to occupy us. That now looking after our elderly family members is in the main seen not as something we should do, but as a burden. Granted it is challenging and a burden at times, but in many cases they did this for us for 18+ years growing up.

To me cares homes are an easy option for people to get out responsibility. That was once given freely by their family whilst growing up.

I agree on your point with wages, but to me its more how society has become and fails to see that one day they will be placed in this same situation. Some care homes are brilliant and others are poor. The irony is people bemoan immigrants to this country, but they still have a great ethos when it comes to looking after their family elders. Technology has made people selfish to their own needs and I also think work demands also play a factor on lifestyles and making people drained on how to cope. A reality check is required and it may well be difficult to look after people who need constant care, but I fail to see why if paying for a care home. That people not pay for a carer, whilst they are at work. Their elderly family members are going to feel more comfortable in family surroundings

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I agree if we allow our old folk to be ill treated we should be ashamed of ourselves.
I have seen first hand how some old people are abandoned when they can no longer take care of themselves, I also know some care homes are horrible places....some, not all.

The hard facts are that many older people need the safety and the care of being looked after professionally 24/7....and that's not something many people can manage or afford at home.
The problems arise when the care homes don't care enough....so the responsibility MUST be with the family to make sure they get the care they need....and the authorities have to weed out the bad from the good.....and train people to care properly, not pay minimum wage to 'carers' who are there because they cant do anything else.

I think the root cause first stops with family.
Now we have as people so many things to occupy us. That now looking after our elderly family members is in the main seen not as something we should do, but as a burden. Granted it is challenging and a burden at times, but in many cases they did this for us for 18+ years growing up.

To me cares homes are an easy option for people to get out responsibility. That was once given freely by their family whilst growing up.

I agree on your point with wages, but to me its more how society has become and fails to see that one day they will be placed in this same situation. Some care homes are brilliant and others are poor. The irony is people bemoan immigrants to this country, but they still have a great ethos when it comes to looking after their family elders. Technology has made people selfish to their own needs and I also think work demands also play a factor on lifestyles and making people drained on how to cope. A reality check is required and it may well be difficult to look after people who need constant care, but I fail to see why if paying for a care home. That people not pay for a carer, whilst they are at work. Their elderly family members are going to feel more comfortable in family surroundings

If a person can safely manage to care for the parent at home that's ideal, many cannot.

My mum was in a care home for 3 years before she died. The fact is she needed full time professional care, with all the will in the world, after caring for her in her own home for 10 years, I could not provide that for her, it's one of the hardest decisions I ever made though, and a lot of care was made in choosing a suitable place, and we visited all the time.

The flip side of this is I believe some families avoid placing their parent into care because they don't want to see their inheritance disappear at a rate of knots...£1000 a week isn't unusual....but if the parent is unsafe at home, either through mental or physical reasons....sometimes, a care or nursing home is the best place for them to be.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I think the root cause first stops with family.
Now we have as people so many things to occupy us. That now looking after our elderly family members is in the main seen not as something we should do, but as a burden. Granted it is challenging and a burden at times, but in many cases they did this for us for 18+ years growing up.

To me cares homes are an easy option for people to get out responsibility. That was once given freely by their family whilst growing up.

I agree on your point with wages, but to me its more how society has become and fails to see that one day they will be placed in this same situation. Some care homes are brilliant and others are poor. The irony is people bemoan immigrants to this country, but they still have a great ethos when it comes to looking after their family elders. Technology has made people selfish to their own needs and I also think work demands also play a factor on lifestyles and making people drained on how to cope. A reality check is required and it may well be difficult to look after people who need constant care, but I fail to see why if paying for a care home. That people not pay for a carer, whilst they are at work. Their elderly family members are going to feel more comfortable in family surroundings

If a person can safely manage to care for the parent at home that's ideal, many cannot.

My mum was in a care home for 3 years before she died. The fact is she needed full time professional care, with all the will in the world, after caring for her in her own home for 10 years,  I could not provide that for her, it's one of the hardest decisions I ever made though, and a lot of care was made in choosing a suitable place, and we visited all the time.

The flip side of  this is I believe some families avoid placing their parent into care because they don't want to see their inheritance disappear at a rate of knots...£1000 a week isn't unusual....but if the parent is unsafe at home, either through mental or physical reasons....sometimes, a care or nursing home is the best place for them to be.

Sorry to hear about your mother and you did though care for her for many years until it was not possible.
The fact is you did try everything and can see it no doubt went against every principle you had to do. That you never wanted to do and place her into care. You wanted the best for her. I am more talking about how people when they can help, do not want to help and ship them off in to care homes and its the easier option. So please do not take my views as in anyway having a go. As I understand how it can become impossible to be their 24/7. Like I say, sometime we have to be reliant on others. I do still think though that those family elders who even have such medical mental health problems are going to be better placed with family. As I have seen what it does to some where they are torn from their families and its shattering, when they are already are so confused and lost.

To me we need a better system and more money invested to help care for those we love that need constant provision of care.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

If a person can safely manage to care for the parent at home that's ideal, many cannot.

My mum was in a care home for 3 years before she died. The fact is she needed full time professional care, with all the will in the world, after caring for her in her own home for 10 years,  I could not provide that for her, it's one of the hardest decisions I ever made though, and a lot of care was made in choosing a suitable place, and we visited all the time.

The flip side of  this is I believe some families avoid placing their parent into care because they don't want to see their inheritance disappear at a rate of knots...£1000 a week isn't unusual....but if the parent is unsafe at home, either through mental or physical reasons....sometimes, a care or nursing home is the best place for them to be.

Sorry to hear about your mother and you did though care for her for many years until it was not possible.
The fact is you did try everything and can see it no doubt went against every principle you had to do. That you never wanted to do and place her into care. You wanted the best for her. I am more talking about how people when they can help, do not want to help and ship them off in to care homes and its the easier option. So please do not take my views as in anyway having a go. As I understand how it can become impossible to be their 24/7. Like I say, sometime we have to be reliant on others. I do still think though that those family elders who even have such medical mental health problems are going to be better placed with family. As I have seen what it does to some where they are torn from their families and its shattering, when they are already are so confused and lost.

To me we need a better system and more money invested to help care for those we love that need constant provision of care.

Thank you Thor, and No I don't take you words personally.

I do believe it's the hardest decision any loving family member can ever do.....when you realise you have failed a parent (and I know that's how many do feel) it's very hard.

I think it's a huge problem in todays society, people are outliving their physical and mental capabilities, and there is not enough being done to make their final years dignified and comfortable.....some of the things we read about  care homes and the people they employ are horrendous.

Like you say...money needs to be invested, staff should be trained and paid accordingly, more nurses should be employed in care homes, more homes are needed. People should get more support if they are still able to live at home or with family......personally I found social services worse than useless when I cared for my mum, they constantly made her situation worse, in the end we more or less managed without them for 10 years.

I also think care/nursing homes should be constantly under surveillance with CCTV in all rooms of severely demented patients.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Sorry to hear about your mother and you did though care for her for many years until it was not possible.
The fact is you did try everything and can see it no doubt went against every principle you had to do. That you never wanted to do and place her into care. You wanted the best for her. I am more talking about how people when they can help, do not want to help and ship them off in to care homes and its the easier option. So please do not take my views as in anyway having a go. As I understand how it can become impossible to be their 24/7. Like I say, sometime we have to be reliant on others. I do still think though that those family elders who even have such medical mental health problems are going to be better placed with family. As I have seen what it does to some where they are torn from their families and its shattering, when they are already are so confused and lost.

To me we need a better system and more money invested to help care for those we love that need constant provision of care.

Thank you Thor, and No I don't take you words personally.

I do believe it's the hardest decision any loving family member can ever do.....when you realise you have failed a parent (and I know that's how many do feel) it's very hard.

I think it's a huge problem in todays society, people are outliving their physical and mental capabilities, and there is not enough being done to make their final years dignified and comfortable.....some of the things we read about  care homes and the people they employ are horrendous.

Like you say...money needs to be invested, staff should be trained and paid accordingly, more nurses should be employed in care homes, more homes are needed. People should get more support if they are still able to live at home or with family......personally I found social services worse than useless when I cared for my mum, they constantly made her situation worse, in the end we more or less managed without them for 10 years.

I also think care/nursing homes should be constantly under surveillance with CCTV in all rooms of severely demented patients.

+1

So on the point, especially the last point.
This is he problem going forward though where people fail to understand that by 2050, there is going to be an imbalance of the population. With over 25% over 65. Its why we still at present need to counter this with either a baby boom or more young immigrants. To meet the demand that will be needed to care for the elderly. Carers, nurses etc, who the latter I agree more should be working in homes to help the elderly.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Thank you Thor, and No I don't take you words personally.

I do believe it's the hardest decision any loving family member can ever do.....when you realise you have failed a parent (and I know that's how many do feel) it's very hard.

I think it's a huge problem in todays society, people are outliving their physical and mental capabilities, and there is not enough being done to make their final years dignified and comfortable.....some of the things we read about  care homes and the people they employ are horrendous.

Like you say...money needs to be invested, staff should be trained and paid accordingly, more nurses should be employed in care homes, more homes are needed. People should get more support if they are still able to live at home or with family......personally I found social services worse than useless when I cared for my mum, they constantly made her situation worse, in the end we more or less managed without them for 10 years.

I also think care/nursing homes should be constantly under surveillance with CCTV in all rooms of severely demented patients.

+1

So on the point, especially the last point.
This is he problem going forward though where people fail to understand that by 2050, there is going to be an imbalance of the population. With over 25% over 65. Its why we still at present need to counter this with either a baby boom or more young immigrants. To meet the demand that will be needed to care for the elderly. Carers, nurses etc, who the latter I agree more should be working in homes to help the elderly.

It's a scary thought isn't it.....people are living a lot longer, and it's likely that many will need full time care in their later years. We do need to start properly valuing carers, both professional and family carers, I also think, going down another road, assisted dying laws should be changed in this country, the sad fact is many people would choose NOT to live like they do in their final years.

Research is being done on dementia and altzheimers, numbers of cases are increasing yearly as the population ages, the future looks bleak if it carries on so something needs to be done now.
I agree that many young immigrants either find work in the NHS or private caring, and they are invaluable, more should be done to recruit, either here or abroad. I think like nursing, caring is a vocation not a casual job to do till something better comes along.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


+1

So on the point, especially the last point.
This is he problem going forward though where people fail to understand that by 2050, there is going to be an imbalance of the population. With over 25% over 65. Its why we still at present need to counter this with either a baby boom or more young immigrants. To meet the demand that will be needed to care for the elderly. Carers, nurses etc, who the latter I agree more should be working in homes to help the elderly.

It's a scary thought isn't it.....people are living a lot longer, and it's likely that many will need full time care in their later years. We do need to start properly valuing carers, both professional and family carers, I also think, going down another road, assisted dying laws should be changed in this country, the sad fact is many people would choose NOT to live like they do in their final years.

Research is being done on dementia and altzheimers, numbers of cases are increasing yearly as the population ages,  the future looks bleak if it carries on so something needs to be done now.
I agree that many young immigrants either find work in the NHS or private caring, and they are invaluable, more should be done to recruit, either here or abroad. I think like nursing, caring is a vocation not a casual job to do till something better comes along.

Maybe the way forward is to make the job that much more skilled with qualifications. Not as difficult as nurses, but one that focuses on health and empathy to the elderly Syl. It would cost more money, but to me, what is money really when it comes to looking after people who have given to that country all their lives through working etc.?? Some caring homes are really good and area exceptional. Some are appalling and where the carers do not even have recognition of the basic symptoms of a stroke or a heart attack. Some confuse agonal breathing, as their client as breathing and conscious. Yet in 40% of heart attack victims they have agonal breathing which is very much like snoring, but they are not actually breathing. The body can also make unnatural movements as if it seems they are conscious, when they are not. Simple things like this can help save lives.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

It's a scary thought isn't it.....people are living a lot longer, and it's likely that many will need full time care in their later years. We do need to start properly valuing carers, both professional and family carers, I also think, going down another road, assisted dying laws should be changed in this country, the sad fact is many people would choose NOT to live like they do in their final years.

Research is being done on dementia and altzheimers, numbers of cases are increasing yearly as the population ages,  the future looks bleak if it carries on so something needs to be done now.
I agree that many young immigrants either find work in the NHS or private caring, and they are invaluable, more should be done to recruit, either here or abroad. I think like nursing, caring is a vocation not a casual job to do till something better comes along.

Maybe the way forward is to make the job that much more skilled with qualifications. Not as difficult as nurses, but one that focuses on health and empathy to the elderly Syl. It would cost more money, but to me, what is money really when it comes to looking after people who have given to that country all their lives through working etc.?? Some caring homes are really good and area exceptional. Some are appalling and where the carers do not even have recognition of the basic symptoms of a stroke or a heart attack. Some confuse agonal breathing, as their client as breathing and conscious. Yet in 40% of heart attack victims they have agonal breathing which is very much like snoring, but they are not actually breathing. The body can also make unnatural movements as if it seems they are conscious, when they are not. Simple things like this can help save lives.

You hit the nail on the head there when you said the word "Empathy".....if a person has that they will care, if they don't, they are just going through the motions.
I think the best thing anyone can ever do if they are looking for a care home is to research, ask local Dr's, district nurses, care workers. etc about what is available. Then visit....over and over if need be, a decent care home will always welcome you....turn up without an appointment, talk to the residents,ask how long the staff have worked there, then when you narrow it down involve the person who needs the care, if they can still make decisions listen to them.

Everyone who works in a care home should know the basics of first aid and age related illnesses, sometimes, like you say, a simple procedure can prevent a more serious complication arising. Even making sure a person is turned frequently in bed prevents ulcers for eg, which can be really serious in the aged.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Maybe the way forward is to make the job that much more skilled with qualifications. Not as difficult as nurses, but one that focuses on health and empathy to the elderly Syl. It would cost more money, but to me, what is money really when it comes to looking after people who have given to that country all their lives through working etc.?? Some caring homes are really good and area exceptional. Some are appalling and where the carers do not even have recognition of the basic symptoms of a stroke or a heart attack. Some confuse agonal breathing, as their client as breathing and conscious. Yet in 40% of heart attack victims they have agonal breathing which is very much like snoring, but they are not actually breathing. The body can also make unnatural movements as if it seems they are conscious, when they are not. Simple things like this can help save lives.

You hit the nail on the head there when you said the word "Empathy".....if a person has that they will care, if they don't, they are just going through the motions.
I think the best thing anyone can ever do if they are looking for a care home is to research, ask local Dr's, district nurses, care workers. etc about what is available. Then visit....over and over if need be, a decent care home will always welcome you....turn up without an appointment, talk to the residents,ask how long the staff have worked there,  then when you narrow it down involve the person who needs the care, if they can still make decisions listen to them.

Everyone who works in a care home should know the basics of first aid and age related illnesses, sometimes, like you say, a simple procedure can prevent a more serious complication arising. Even making sure a person is turned frequently in bed prevents ulcers for eg, which can be really serious in the aged.

The sad reality is many carers do not even know first aid Syl, let alone what signs to look out for with emergency problems. The system needs to be overhauled and agree empathy has to be the key, but this needs a ethos change in the country again. Where once work was done with an ethos of being proud of he work we achieved daily. Now to many its a chore and a means to and end. People have no love in the work they do and in some cases begrudge that they have to. Prosperity has brought about this negative attitude within people. Where they have lost sight on the unity a nation needs on helping each other. People are becoming more and more selfish. They may well give to charities, but the want to do well in your work is a dying breed. We need to start when people are young again to instill a work ethic into people and parents have to play their part and not constantly pander their children's every needs. People have forgotten what hardship is and have become to comfortable.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

You hit the nail on the head there when you said the word "Empathy".....if a person has that they will care, if they don't, they are just going through the motions.
I think the best thing anyone can ever do if they are looking for a care home is to research, ask local Dr's, district nurses, care workers. etc about what is available. Then visit....over and over if need be, a decent care home will always welcome you....turn up without an appointment, talk to the residents,ask how long the staff have worked there,  then when you narrow it down involve the person who needs the care, if they can still make decisions listen to them.

Everyone who works in a care home should know the basics of first aid and age related illnesses, sometimes, like you say, a simple procedure can prevent a more serious complication arising. Even making sure a person is turned frequently in bed prevents ulcers for eg, which can be really serious in the aged.

The sad reality is many carers do not even know first aid Syl, let alone what signs to look out for with emergency problems. The system needs to be overhauled and agree empathy has to be the key, but this needs a ethos change in the country again. Where once work was done with an ethos of being proud of he work we achieved daily. Now to many its a chore and a means to and end. People have no love in the work they do and in some cases begrudge that they have to. Prosperity has brought about this negative attitude within people. Where they have lost sight on the unity a nation needs on helping each other. People are becoming more and more selfish. They may well give to charities, but the want to do well in your work is a dying breed. We need to start when people are young again to instill a work ethic into people and parents have to play their part and not constantly pander their children's every needs. People have forgotten what hardship is and have become to comfortable.

I agree with EVERYTHING you have said here.
It started imo with Thatcher....the I'm all right Jack attitude that saw people put themselves first, communities seemed to disappear, everyone was on a mission to better themselves at any cost....that attitude is still here today in this country, though now it's mixed in with disillusionment for many, because a happy life doesn't work like that.

I also think that not allowing youngsters to work freely till they are 18 is wrong. Not everyone is academic, there are far too few apprentices around. I worked at 15, by the time I was 18 I was independent....now youngsters cant afford to be independent till they are in their mid 20's or later....all these things contribute to a society that's lost it's way imo.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:

The sad reality is many carers do not even know first aid Syl, let alone what signs to look out for with emergency problems. The system needs to be overhauled and agree empathy has to be the key, but this needs a ethos change in the country again. Where once work was done with an ethos of being proud of he work we achieved daily. Now to many its a chore and a means to and end. People have no love in the work they do and in some cases begrudge that they have to. Prosperity has brought about this negative attitude within people. Where they have lost sight on the unity a nation needs on helping each other. People are becoming more and more selfish. They may well give to charities, but the want to do well in your work is a dying breed. We need to start when people are young again to instill a work ethic into people and parents have to play their part and not constantly pander their children's every needs. People have forgotten what hardship is and have become to comfortable.

I agree with EVERYTHING you have said here.
It started imo with Thatcher....the I'm all right Jack attitude that saw people put themselves first, communities seemed to disappear, everyone was on a mission to better themselves at any cost....that attitude is still here today in this country, though now it's mixed in with disillusionment for many, because a happy  life doesn't work like that.

I also think that not allowing youngsters to work freely till they are 18 is wrong. Not everyone is academic, there are far  too few apprentices around. I worked at 15, by the time I was 18 I was independent....now youngsters cant afford to be independent till they are in their mid 20's or later....all these things contribute to a society that's lost it's way imo.

I think technology is what changed people on work ethics. Where they had far more luxuries, especially with the rise of the computers, game consoles and mobile phones. Its made people easily distracted from the realities of the world at hand. They live their lives as if online constantly Syl. Its going to turn peoples ability to deal in the real world flawed. They will never have the ability to face problems head on. They will only know how to hide behind their PC or phone. People have far to many distractions now. They cannot spend even 2 minutes away from their phones as if their lives depended on it.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I agree with EVERYTHING you have said here.
It started imo with Thatcher....the I'm all right Jack attitude that saw people put themselves first, communities seemed to disappear, everyone was on a mission to better themselves at any cost....that attitude is still here today in this country, though now it's mixed in with disillusionment for many, because a happy  life doesn't work like that.

I also think that not allowing youngsters to work freely till they are 18 is wrong. Not everyone is academic, there are far  too few apprentices around. I worked at 15, by the time I was 18 I was independent....now youngsters cant afford to be independent till they are in their mid 20's or later....all these things contribute to a society that's lost it's way imo.

I think technology is what changed people on work ethics. Where they had far more luxuries, especially with the rise of the computers, game consoles and mobile phones. Its made people easily distracted from the realities of the world at hand. They live their lives as if online constantly Syl. Its going to turn peoples ability to deal in the real world flawed. They will never have the ability to face problems head on. They will only know how to hide behind their PC or phone. People have far to many distractions now. They cannot spend even 2 minutes away from their phones as if their lives depended on it.

I think that came a bit later Thor....and it has shaped the generation that is now late teens into being more comfortable communicating with machines rather than face to face.
My younger grandson (17) has played with his friends in his room for years....only there is only him there, the rest are in front of him on his computer,....very odd.
People see the world through their mobiles, and what really pees me off is when they abrubtly end a conversation with a real life person in order to have one with a bloody hand held gadget...I don't even own a mobile phone, and I hope I never will.

I have enjoyed our 'talks' today Thor.....I think we are proving that what we say is true though....

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:

I think technology is what changed people on work ethics. Where they had far more luxuries, especially with the rise of the computers, game consoles and mobile phones. Its made people easily distracted from the realities of the world at hand. They live their lives as if online constantly Syl. Its going to turn peoples ability to deal in the real world flawed. They will never have the ability to face problems head on. They will only know how to hide behind their PC or phone. People have far to many distractions now. They cannot spend even 2 minutes away from their phones as if their lives depended on it.

I think that came a bit later Thor....and it has shaped the generation that is now late teens into being more comfortable communicating with machines rather than face to face.
My younger grandson (17) has played with his friends in his room for years....only there is only him there, the rest are in front of him on his computer,....very odd.
People see the world through their mobiles, and what really pees me off is when they abrubtly end a conversation with a real life person in order to have one with a bloody hand held gadget...I don't even own a mobile phone, and I hope I never will.

I have enjoyed our 'talks' today Thor.....I think we are proving that what we say is true though....

Thank you and I have enjoyed this also Syl#

Great minds think alike