Both my comments are true... or are they...?

First topic message reminder :

4EVER2 thinks I am wrong...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Lurker wrote:A nativity scene for Trump supporters, no refugees, no Jews, no Arabs, no Blacks.

Not sure about that... but there were definitely no Muslims back then...

Rather ODD, how you'll start your post with a 'not sure', but then you quickly followed that up with a "but there were definitely no Muslims back then!" statement ...Sweet Jesus     Tommykins, still proving that lack of reading and just sticking your neck out to get it chopped off! 

If you don't like this thread about 'Thumping-Chump' then ignore all of the sarcastic banter and continued pungent jabs that the rest of us do ...

IT'S RATHER OBVIOUS WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT ...DUHHHH

10. Islam: Islam is the one of the oldest religion of the world that was brought by the Holy Prophet PBUH. It is the monotheistic religion in which the Muslims believe of the oneness of Allah Almighty and the Prophet Hood. Islam is the second major religion of the world with almost 1.5 billion followers called Muslims. The origin of the Islam was started in the 622 AD and it was spread to the whole world within a short period of time.
9. Christianity: standing next on our list is the religion called Christianity that was started in the 300 AD before the advent of Islam. It is also a monotheistic religion that was based on the teaching of the Jesus Christ. Christianity is world’s major religion with around 2.1 billion followers. The Christians believe the Jesus Christ to be the son of Allah Almighty and reserves the Holy book called Bible or New Testament.
8. Taoism: Taoism is the one of the oldest religion that arrives before the arrival of Christianity. It was actually a tradition of Chinese origin that gives the lesson of living in peace and harmony. However Taoism can also be found in the other religions and was started in the 4 to 3rd century BC.
7. Jainism: the other oldest religion of the world is the Jainism or usually called Jain Dharma and it belongs to the Indian religions. The religion teaches to be the non-violent, non- stealing, non- absolute and non- possessive. It is a philosophy of eternity that spread all across the India from the very first day of its origin, 450 BC.
6. Confucianism: it is next on our list because it is the one of the oldest religion that describes the ethical and sociopolitical teachings and is spread in the countries like China, Hong Kong, Macau, Japan, Vietnam and Singapore. The advent of this religion started in the 500 BC.
5. Shinto: it is the ethical religion that is followed in the Japan. The religion focus on the ethical values of the people of the Japan there are several types of Shinto that is practiced all over the Japan and it is the largest religion of Japan. The origin of this religion was recorded in the 8th century and is till famous.
4. Buddhism: it is another oldest and the famous religion of the world that consist of the various traditions and practices that are based on the teachings of the Gautama Buddha. The religion was started in the 6th and 4th BC that awakened the regions of China, Thailand, Japan, Korea and India with the estimated followers of 488 million throughout the world.
3. Zoroastrianism: next on our list is the religion that is among the oldest religions of the world. The religion offers the cosmogonic dualism and monotheism in the regions like Iran and India with the 2.6 million followers. The religion started in the 1000 BCE and the basic beliefs of this religion are the Good thoughts, good words and the good deeds.
2. Judaism: the Judaism is the one of the oldest religion that teaches way of life. The Jewish people follow the religion of Judaism that contains the philosophy of culture and the philosophy of monotheism. Torah is the evidence and the foundational text of the Judaism. The origin of this religion was 2000 BCE.
1. Hinduism: this religion is the oldest religion of since the evolution of human beings on Earth that was originate in 4000 to 2500 BCE. It is the dominant religion that is followed mostly in the regions of South Asia like India and Nepal. The Hinduism revolves around the family of the Gods who gave the teachings of cosmology, pilgrimage of the sacred sites and shared textual resources.
http://www.listawake.com/top-10-oldest-religions-of-the-world/

     This statement is just insanity, lamely disguised as a possible attempt at humor; but sorrowfully wrong in all aspects just the same!

Saddam hussein and his baath party were leftie socialists!
And under his rule Iraq was relatively stable, secular and peaceful.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Muslims are followers of Islam... islam didn't start to exist until 600 years after the birth of Christ.


Jesus performed miracles... healed the sick, even rose 3 people from the dead... his message was freedom/peace/love...

Mohammed did nothing but bring war/death/murder/rape/robbery and brutal dictatorial rule based on fear...

I don't know about Jesus performing miracles.   But I do believe he preached love and not hate.   Also, I think he was the physical embodiment of the spiritual state that we all have but forget about on this planet.   In other words, when he is quoted to have said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." he meant that you have to have love in your heart and not hate to progress and evolve spiritually.  But that's just my interpretation.   I think the Bible is mostly a mish mash of man made writings, particularly the Old Testament and the Q'uran is even worse.  

That is pretty much my take TBH. I think Jesus existed and was a good guy who tried to spread love and peace, but miracles? No. not of the sort that's in the bible.
I think the stories are based in truth and Chinese whispers.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Yes, that is the crux of the matter.  To make it even a finer point, there were followers, and FOLLOWERS.  

Originally, among the followers were the Cathars and the Paulines, or Catholics.  What transformed followers into FOLLOWERS--the religion, as distinct from a group of devotees--was the Emperor Constantine.  Even he didn't care about the religion, but he wanted to use it to consolidate Rome.  As a by-product, he made a following into a religion.

The Church, under the Pope--then, merely the Bishop of Rome--became the tail that wags the dog.  As the Roman Empire diminished, the fortunes of the Pope rose, and eventually he was naming the emperor.

http://www.debate.org.uk/debate-topics/theological/jes-paul/

Exactly my point. Paul's message was far removed from the teachings of Jesus.

HT wrote:Who told him to do that? Or did he think, what a great way to be popular and get a following?

I don’t know.  It’s a highly personal question.  Even if you asked him, you cannot be sure of the answer.  It’s kinda like asking, under it all, is an altruist really a hedonist?  Maybe he saw fame and fortune in it for himself, maybe not.  If he was being paid, we'd have independent evidence...but I haven't seen anything.  

Certainly we can't take his word for it...at least without evidence.  It's too personal a question.  I doubt he'd know.

HT wrote:Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Of course, it’s their world view.  Muslims view the work of Allah, not as one as creation, as do Judeo-Christians, but as one of living in the now:

Boorstin, D.J, The Creators wrote:The Muslim Creator-God is notable not only, nor even mainly, for his work in the Beginning, but as an orderer, a commander, of life and death in our present.  The Judeo-Christian God is awesome for his uniqueness of His work in the Beginning.  Then he may intervene by divine providence.  But the Muslim God awes us in the continuity, the omnipresence, the immediacy, the inscrutable arbitrariness of his decrees.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:So... Muslims are just the followers of the guide book known as the koran...!?

Which was compiled more than 600 years AFTER the birth of Jesus...

Yes.

There is no proof of when the Koran was written. The Koran consists of 114 units of varying lengths, known as suras; the first sura is said as part of the ritual prayer. These touch upon all aspects of human existence, including matters of doctrine, social organization, and legislation.

The suras were dictated to Muhammad by the Archangel Gabriel, but he gives no indication of when they were actually written.

If the text of the koran was dictated to mohammed... then this was some time during mohammeds lifetime... which was around 600 years AFTER the birth of Jesus...

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

No, Paul had nothing to do with the Gospels.  Paul wrote in letters, in which he started the religion known as Christianity.  Paul wrote thirteen letters which are included in the New Testament.



The Gospels were written some 1 to 3 centuries after the death of Jesus, the earliest being Mark the Evangelist, founder of the Church of Alexandria.

The Gospels were written earlier than that. Paul didn't start Christianity when he wrote his letters.

Of the four Gospels, Mark's was the first. Mark, a Palestinian Jew, was said to have received his information from Peter, his source. Mark is believed to have written before 70 AD.

Luke, Matthew and John all post-date Mark. The Gospel of John differs from the rest in that he breaks with the Synoptic tradition. It appears to be part oral and part written, so a source date cannot be precisely fixed. These writing were written and rewritten for centuries, until formalized by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

Tommy Monk wrote:If the text of the koran was dictated to mohammed... then this was some time during mohammeds lifetime... which was around 600 years AFTER the birth of Jesus...

Unfortunately, that gives us no clue of when they were originally conceived and written.  The implication of the story is that they pre-dated Muhammed.

4EVER2 wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:Just to bring a little objectivity to this discussion:

The Christian Bible had reached more or less its current form by the fourth or fifth century. Muhammad wouldn't be born for several more centuries. Also, the Quran references Christianity, but the Bible doesn't reference Islam, another indicator that Muhammad intended to found a new religion.

A Muslim is simply someone who follows the Islamic faith. "Muslim" doesn't refer to a race or nationality. Therefore, before Islam there could be no Muslims.

Turkic - DNA link, lots of recent written papers regarding this issue!

It has often been suggested that the Xiongnu, mentioned in Han Dynasty records, were Proto-Turkic speakers. Although little is known for certain about the Xiongnu language(s), it seems likely that at least a considerable part of Xiongnu tribes spoke a Turkic language. However, some scholars see a possible connection with the Iranian-speaking Sakas. Some scholars believe they were probably a confederation of various ethnic and linguistic groups. Genetics research in 2003 on skeletons from 2000 year old Xiongnu necropolis in Mongolia found some individuals with DNA sequences also present in some modern-day Turks, suggesting that a Turkish component had emerged in the Xiongnu tribe at the end of the Xiongnu period.
In 2009, archaeologists found Turkic balbals which are 2000 year old.
According to another archeological and genetic study in 2010, the DNA found in three skeletons in 2000-year-old elite Xiongnu cemetery in Northeast Asia belonged to C3, D4 and R1a. The evidence of paternal R1a supports the Kurgan hypothesis for the Indo-European expansion from the Volga steppe region. As the R1a was found in Xiongnu people and the present-day people of Central Asia Analysis of skeletal remains from sites attributed to the Xiongnu provides an identification of dolichocephalic Mongoloid, ethnically distinct from neighboring populations in present-day Mongolia.
Xiongnu writing, older than Turkic, is agreed to have the earliest known Turkic alphabet, the Orkhon script. This has been argued recently using the only extant possibly Xiongu writings, the rock art of the Yinshan and Helan Mountains. It dates from the 9th millennium BCE to the 19th century, and consists mainly of engraved signs (petroglyphs) and few painted images. Excavations done during 1924–1925 in Noin-Ula kurgans located in the Selenga River in the northern Mongolian hills north of Ulan Bator produced objects with over 20 carved characters, which were either identical or very similar to the runic letters of the Turkic Orkhon script discovered in the Orkhon Valley.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#History 

Pre-DNA testing the only data source we had was from what the 'dirt diggers' were able to uncover ...now there are many ways of proving ones lineage - regional areas of origin etc., etc., etc.

But there's a lot of great information in just that one single link, if one is interest in broadening the mind!

And now that the ADHD children have retired the topic, I'll continue the DNA linkage with the line from the early 2000 yr old thawed mummfied remains-Turkics right into modern day Islamic regions that we see so much turmoil and strife in today. 
My interest in all of this became tweaked when I became interested in the Zen Buddhism following/teaching and in reading some of the passages/teaching tools - quotations from masters like Confucius ...I noticed some very familiar phrases and quotes that sounded exactly as those attributed to what Jesus had said and what had been written in the bible.
Got me to wondering; what came first - the oldest written language known to mankind or the plagiarized - manipulated transcripts used to compile the Bible?
And my search and study brought me rather back door ...from Asia to the Mongol Invasion and what predated whom and those written texts and scrolls that have been found.
 

As the Seljuk Empire declined following the Mongol invasion, the Ottoman Empire emerged as the new important Turkic state, that came to dominate not only the Middle East, but even southeastern Europe, parts of southwestern Russia, and northern Africa.^[68]
The Delhi Sultanate is a term used to cover five short-lived, Delhi-based kingdoms three of which were of Turkic origin in medieval India. These Turkic dynasties were the Mamluk dynasty (1206–90); the Khilji dynasty (1290–1320); and the Tughlaq dynasty (1320–1414). Southern India, also saw many Turkic origin dynasties like Bahmani Sultanate, Adil Shahi dynasty, Bidar Sultanate, Qutb Shahi dynasty, collectively known as Deccan sultanates.
In Eastern Europe, Volga Bulgaria became an Islamic state in 922 and influenced the region as it controlled many trade routes. In the 13th century, Mongols invaded Europe and established the Golden Horde in Eastern Europe, western & northern Central Asia, and even western Siberia. The Cuman-Kipchak Confederation and Islamic Volga Bulgaria were absorbed by the Golden Horde in the 13th century; in the 14th century, Islam became the official religion under Uzbeg Khan where the general population (Turks) as well as the aristocracy (Mongols) came to speak the Kipchak language and were collectively known as "Tatars" by Russians and Westerners. This country was also known as the Kipchak Khanate and covered most of what is today Ukraine, as well as the entirety of modern-day southern and eastern Russia (the European section).

Not for the faint of heart - defiantly not for the immature and illiterate and absolutely not to be wasted upon those that can't grasp the importance of comparing the newest data back against the oldest data to see where the mistakes had been made! 
Yes, Tommykins ...if your reading abilities have pushed you thus far --- there is DNA and it does matter!  But your making those immature ugly Muslim/snidely jerky/jokes have zero place in adult discussion!  You are what you type

WTF are you wittering on about you complete mental obscenity...!!!???


Muslims are not defined by race or ethnicity...


Muslims are defined by being followers of mohammed and his islam...


Before mohammed there was no mohammed and there was no islam...


There were no followers of mohammed or islam before there was any mohammed or islam to follow...


Therefore... before mohammed/islam existed... there could not be any followers of them...


Follower of mohammed/islam = Muslim


Before mohammed/islam = no followers = no Muslims


I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand...!?

Mohammed is believed to be the last prophet of God, the first prophet being Abraham with both Moses and Jesus falling between them.

There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group.

According to Muslim belief, Muhammad did not create Islam.  Rather, he was the latest prophet of the monotheistic religions prevalent in the region at the time, and was inspired to restore the monotheistic faith to its true, uncorrupted form through the Quran.  This monotheistic faith had earlier prophets, including Jesus, Abraham and Moses; many of the fundamental aspects of Judaism and Christianity are likewise part of Islam.

https://www.quora.com/What-religion-s-did-the-Arabs-follow-before-Islam

Tommy Monk wrote:If the text of the koran was dictated to mohammed... then this was some time during mohammeds lifetime... which was around 600 years AFTER the birth of Jesus...

Odd isn't it that people slavishly follow a book that was 'dictated' from up high centuries ago when everyone believed the world was flat, and yet scoff and mock when we have people in this day and age who claim to have connections with those 'on high'. If someone took to the media tomorrow claiming to have written a book dictated by 'God' with a set of rules we all had to adhere to, what do you suppose would happen? Everyone would say, 'Fuck off, you nutter.'

The Kaaba originally a PAGAN Temple!!!
The Kaaba is supposedly the centre of all religious importance in islam, their most sacred site, being the focus of the most sacred “islamic pilgrimiage”. How surprising, then, that this is actually in fact a PAGAN Temple built originally for the worship of Pagan Gods.
It was said that the walls of the Kaaba were originally engraved with names and symbols of various Pagan Gods, including the God known by the title “AlÍlah”, who was the Mesopotamian Moon God Sin aka Nanna. His symbol was the crescent Moon and Star:

It is very clear where islam stole their “god” Allah from. In the Ancient Middle East, the title of “Al-Ilah” was bestowed upon the chief God of an area or tribe, and simply meant the supreme Deity. Lifting this, islam corrupted the concept and removed all Knowledge of the Pagan Gods, replacing it with their fictitious abrahamic spook. For more information on this in particular, see:
http://exposingthelieofislam.weebly.com/iblis-and-the-djinn-the-original-gods.html
http://exposingthelieofislam.weebly.com/islamic-symbols-stolen-from-ancient-paganism.html
Much of this is actually Allegorical, and has to do with Power Meditation and the Soul. The “Temple” represents the Soul. The designs of many Ancient Pagan Temples throughout the world were highly Alchemical in their designs, often being a physical representation of the Spiritual process of Enlightenment. The Kaaba is a cube shape. The cube represents the Soul, with its Four Pillars. So engarved upon the cube being the Names and Symbols of the Gods, means Meditation upon the Soul in order to achieve Enlightenment. One only needs to study Sacred Geometry and Alchemical Architecture to see this.
Now, it is also stated in the quran that Muhammad discovered 360 Pagan idols within the Kaaba, which he proceeded to destroy. Again, this is highly Allegorical. From a numerological perspective, 360 adds up to the very important Occult number 9. 3+6+0= 9. 9 Is an important number Spiritually as it ties into the Magnum Opus or Spiritual Enlightenment. The all important 108, used most frequently in Meditation throughout the world and most notably in the Eastern Tantric Traditions, also adds up to 9. This has to do with the 7 Major Chakras along the Spine, plus the 2 Chakras located at the shoulders, which forms the “Cross” of the Soul. See:
http://exposingthelieofislam.weebly.com/exposing-spiritual-corruption-in-islam–stolen-spiritual-allegories-in-the-quran.html

So, the “360” idols which were found within the Kaaba did not refer to literal statues, but rather to a Spiritual concept relating to the Soul, the Chakras and the attainment of Enlightenment. The idols within the Kaaba= the Soul and the Chakras. It was this Pagan sacred Knowledge that was destroyed by Muhammad.

The following is an excerpt from a sermon written by High Priest Don Danko, titled “AUM Cosmology, Siva And The Kabaa”. This further illustrates the Pagan origins of the Kaaba

“kabaa
We can see in Mecca the Islamic’s holiest site of the Kaaba is originally a Siva Temple. As Danielou points out Mecca was created by Brahmana’s from India. Even the 786 in Arabic, symbol on the cover of the Koran is a reigned AUM symbol. In Sri Lanka there is a Temple called Kabaa-lishwaran and is Lord Siva. Meaning its an alchemical diagram [as all the temples are] to the great work. Such temples also have the black stone or Siva Lingam within them. The same as the black stone at the kabaa in Mecca which was once a larger Lingam stone before being cut into its current shape to hide its origin.
In India they still go seven times around the Lingam. In Mecca they go seven times around the same. But Islam changed the direction of movement into the opposite. They still wear the white garments as in the Siva Temples.
In India the pedestal of Brahma [originally another title of Siva in Indus Valley/ Vedic times as Danielou shows] Is octagonal in shape which represents the perfected soul the eight rays of light from the solar charka of which union the six pointed star of Siva represents at the navel region where the point down chakra merges with the point up of the sacral, one water the other fire. Hence Si [fire] Va [water]. And why the Blue God is shown in the solar chakra in many yantra’s.

The pedestal at the center of the Kabaa: Maqam E-IBRAHIM is the same octagonal shape. Its at the center because the sun is the center of the soul and solar system.

With the Kabaa the black cube represents the La the four elements that form into the material body being purified in the Tamos or black stage of the work into the Satva guna or White. Siva rules over this stage as well [as the other two of which the trine prongs on its trident denote]. As this destruction or dissolution stage brings Liberation of the Godhead. Where the tantra’s state the Jiva is turned into Siva. Or man into Godman.

The false or profane ego is that of the gross elements and there conditioned accumulation of karmic properties. That is purified in the final dissolution. To the new or super conscious state [Jiva into Siva]. This has been symbolized in many different ways.

In the Sayar-ul-okul . Which is considered the most important anthology written on the customs and culture of ancient Arabia. It states:
“Va Ahlolaha Azaha Armiman Mahadev o Manazel I lamuddine Minjum Va Satyattaru!”
Which translates to:
“Even if once only he worships Mahadev. He can obtain the highest position in the path of righteousness.”
Mahadev is a major title of Siva. And one will see the truth Siva was the God worshipped in Arabia before Islam was created by the enemy.

We can see Islam along with Christianity is a fake religion” – High Priest Don Danko

The Kaaba, black stone and the pilgrimage are all of Pagan origin. Islam stole this, like it stole everything else, before corrupting and twisting it. Islam is a LIE and a hoax!!

https://exposingthelieofislam.wordpress.com/

And spinner talks about 'idol worshipping'...


https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/is-the-kaaba-an-ancient-hindu-shiva-temple-confiscated-by-mohammed/

Tommy Monk wrote:And spinner talks about 'idol worshipping'...


https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/is-the-kaaba-an-ancient-hindu-shiva-temple-confiscated-by-mohammed/

Clearly you missed the bits I wrote about the polytheistic worship in earlier posts?

on the Arabian peninsula itself, the tribes were most often polytheistic prior to their being united under Islam by Muhammad.  Individual tribes often had gods and goddesses they'd hold sacred more than others, as their protector or patron deities.  In fact, pilgrimages to Mecca pre-date Islam, and the Kaaba shrine in Mecca (Islam's holiest site) once housed hundreds of statues of tribes' patron deities.  There was one god supreme to all others, and referred to as "Allah" (which means "The God" in Arabic), but Allah was nonetheless supreme to a considerable number of lesser deities.

According to the holy Muslim text the Quran, Ibrahim, together with his son Ishmael, raised the foundations of a house and began work on the Kaaba around 2130 BCE.

https://www.boundless.com/world-history/textbooks/boundless-world-history-i-ancient-civilizations-enlightenment-textbook/the-rise-and-spread-of-islam-8/pre-islamic-arabia-42/culture-and-religion-in-pre-islamic-arabia-155-13225/

Therefore, the foundations of Islam were already there.

Think you missed the bit about idol worshipping and that the Kaaba is a Hindu/Pagan Temple...


Mohammed plagiarised bits from other religions and made the rest up as he went along his brutal way robbing/raping and murdering around the place.

Tommy Monk wrote:Think you missed the bit about idol worshipping and that the Kaaba is a Hindu/Pagan Temple...


Mohammed plagiarised bits from other religions answer made the rest up as he went along his brutal way robbing/raping and murdering around the place.

Seriously Tommy I do wonder if you actually bother reading anything other people write.

I read but disagree...

Tommy Monk wrote:

I read but disagree...

Then maybe you should open your mind a bit.

Problem I see with you and most right wingers is that they only see things in black and white, forgetting that there is varying shades of grey in between.

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/is-the-kaaba-an-ancient-hindu-shiva-temple-confiscated-by-mohammed/

Spindleshanks wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

I read but disagree...

Then maybe you should open your mind a bit.

Problem I see with you and most right wingers is that they only see things in black and white, forgetting that there is varying shades of grey in between.

I don't equate believing bullshit with opening my mind... and it's you lefties and your obsession with grey areas that clouds your minds in foggy confusion!


Read the link I posted...


https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/is-the-kaaba-an-ancient-hindu-shiva-temple-confiscated-by-mohammed/

Tommy Monk wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Then maybe you should open your mind a bit.

Problem I see with you and most right wingers is that they only see things in black and white, forgetting that there is varying shades of grey in between.

I don't equate believing bullshit with opening my mind... and it's you lefties and your obsession with grey areas that clouds your minds in foggy confusion!


Read the link I posted...


https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/is-the-kaaba-an-ancient-hindu-shiva-temple-confiscated-by-mohammed/

Nothing in life is black and white Tommy.

See... That's your problem...

Tommy Monk wrote:

See... That's your problem...

You see having an open mind as a problem?

What a sad world you must live in Tommy.

Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people.[1] The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Splitting is a very common ego defense mechanism. It can be defined as the division or polarization of beliefs, actions, objects, or persons into good and bad by focusing selectively on their positive or negative attributes.

Splitting diffuses the anxiety that arises from our inability to grasp the nuances and complexities of a given situation or state of affairs by simplifying and schematizing the situation and thereby making it easier to think about; it also reinforces our sense of self as good and virtuous by effectively demonizing all those who do not share in our opinions and values.

On the other hand, such a compartmentalization of opposites leaves us with a distinctly distorted picture of reality and a restricted range of thoughts and emotions

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201203/self-deception-ii-splitting

Oh and Tommy, what exactly is a Christian Pagan?

We have mentioned in previous posts that the pagans of the Middle East during pre-Islamic times may actually refer to Hindus, not Christian pagans.

_________________
“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

Tommy Monk wrote:
_________________
“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

Problem is Tommy, life, people, religion is complex therefore trying to find the truth in a simplistic manner is problematic.

I note you ignored answering my question regarding a Christian Pagan.

Was that too complex a question Tommy?

I'm presuming the writer meant Christians who still exhibited some of their earlier pagan traditions...


And don't get me wrong... I do consider grey areas and other subtleties involved in decision making... but just don't get bogged down in them...

Spindleshanks wrote:Mohammed is believed to be the last prophet of God, the first prophet being Abraham with both Moses and Jesus falling between them.

There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group.

According to Muslim belief, Muhammad did not create Islam.  Rather, he was the latest prophet of the monotheistic religions prevalent in the region at the time, and was inspired to restore the monotheistic faith to its true, uncorrupted form through the Quran.  This monotheistic faith had earlier prophets, including Jesus, Abraham and Moses; many of the fundamental aspects of Judaism and Christianity are likewise part of Islam.

https://www.quora.com/What-religion-s-did-the-Arabs-follow-before-Islam

In other words, he thought that Judaism and Christianity had become corrupt in some way, so he created Islam. He also thought that Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God, which differs from Christianity.

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm presuming the writer meant Christians who still exhibited some of their earlier pagan traditions...


And don't get me wrong... I do consider grey areas and other subtleties involved in decision making... but just don't get bogged down in them...

Hmm, having read some of that article I will take it with a pinch of salt.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:Mohammed is believed to be the last prophet of God, the first prophet being Abraham with both Moses and Jesus falling between them.





https://www.quora.com/What-religion-s-did-the-Arabs-follow-before-Islam

In other words, he thought that Judaism and Christianity had become corrupt in some way, so he created Islam. He also thought that Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God, which differs from Christianity.

How did you come by that conclusion from those quotes?

Apart from the Jesus as a prophet because that is what followers of Islam believe.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

In other words, he thought that Judaism and Christianity had become corrupt in some way, so he created Islam. He also thought that Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God, which differs from Christianity.

How did you come by that conclusion from those quotes?

Apart from the Jesus as a prophet because that is what followers of Islam believe.

Because of this bit:

He "was inspired to restore the monotheistic faith to its true, uncorrupted form through the Quran."

He would have been very well aware of Judaism and Christianity of course, and I think he rejected parts of them. In the case of Christianity, he rejected the essence of it, which is that Jesus is the Son of God.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

How did you come by that conclusion from those quotes?

Apart from the Jesus as a prophet because that is what followers of Islam believe.

Because of this bit:

He "was inspired to restore the monotheistic faith to its true, uncorrupted form through the Quran."

He would have been very well aware of Judaism and Christianity of course, and I think he rejected parts of them. In the case of Christianity, he rejected the essence of it, which is that Jesus is the Son of God.

I took it to be related to this bit....

There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham.

It is quite possible he saw this faith as becoming corrupted and wished to restore it.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Because of this bit:

He "was inspired to restore the monotheistic faith to its true, uncorrupted form through the Quran."

He would have been very well aware of Judaism and Christianity of course, and I think he rejected parts of them. In the case of Christianity, he rejected the essence of it, which is that Jesus is the Son of God.

I took it to be related to this bit....

There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham.

It is quite possible he saw this faith as becoming corrupted and wished to restore it.

We don't know what this monotheistic faith consisted of, but as it appeared to have included Abraham, I would say it was very similar to Judaism.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

I took it to be related to this bit....


It is quite possible he saw this faith as becoming corrupted and wished to restore it.

We don't know what this monotheistic faith consisted of, but as it appeared to have included Abraham, I would say it was very similar to Judaism.

Abraham has great significance in Islam too.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

We don't know what this monotheistic faith consisted of, but as it appeared to have included Abraham, I would say it was very similar to Judaism.

Abraham has great significance in Islam too.

Yes, but I still think that Mohammed created a new religion, and that Islam did not exist before that.

I reject this idea that one can tell who's a Muslim by their DNA - at least I think that was claimed at some point.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm presuming the writer meant Christians who still exhibited some of their earlier pagan traditions...


And don't get me wrong... I do consider grey areas and other subtleties involved in decision making... but just don't get bogged down in them...

Hmm, having read some of that article I will take it with a pinch of salt.  

Given that mohammed was a brutal robbing/raping/murdering psychopathic dictator... I will ignore anything he said and treat anyone who follows him with contempt...

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Abraham has great significance in Islam too.

Yes, but I still think that Mohammed created a new religion, and that Islam did not exist before that.

I reject this idea that one can tell who's a Muslim by their DNA - at least I think that was claimed at some point.

I think the foundations of Islam existed pre Mohammed and with DNA as Islam began in the Middle East presumably ancient Muslims would likely be Arab hence the potential to trace DNA back to there.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

Hmm, having read some of that article I will take it with a pinch of salt.  

Given that mohammed was a brutal robbing/raping/murdering psychopathic dictator... I will ignore anything he said and treat anyone who follows him with contempt...

Actually, I think that was very much a part of the times he lived in.

Or do you not think the Vikings and other invaders to these shores were equally as brutal?

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, but I still think that Mohammed created a new religion, and that Islam did not exist before that.

I reject this idea that one can tell who's a Muslim by their DNA - at least I think that was claimed at some point.

I think the foundations of Islam existed pre Mohammed and with DNA as Islam began in the Middle East presumably ancient Muslims would likely be Arab hence the potential to trace DNA back to there.

One would need to know how the monotheistic religion differed from Islam in the first place. Mohammed gained many followers - probably more than the original followers of that religion, which suggests that his new religion was quite innovative at the time.

Re DNA, does the DNA of a Jewish person in the Middle East differ from an Arab's DNA?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

I think the foundations of Islam existed pre Mohammed and with DNA as Islam began in the Middle East presumably ancient Muslims would likely be Arab hence the potential to trace DNA back to there.

One would need to know how the monotheistic religion differed from Islam in the first place. Mohammed gained many followers - probably more than the original followers of that religion, which suggests that his new religion was quite innovative at the time.

Re DNA, does the DNA of a Jewish person in the Middle East differ from an Arab's DNA?

I would imagine just like Paul persuading the people that he preached to that Jesus was indeed the Messiah gained him many followers too so I'm not quite sure what your point is there.

If this is actually true, then quite probably it could determine differences according to geographical location.

Where would YOU have lived 1,000 years ago? DNA 'satnav' can now pinpoint the village your ancestors once lived in

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2617698/Where-YOU-lived-1-000-years-ago-DNA-satnav-pinpoints-village-ancestors-inhabited.html#ixzz4U49uCb2l

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

One would need to know how the monotheistic religion differed from Islam in the first place. Mohammed gained many followers - probably more than the original followers of that religion, which suggests that his new religion was quite innovative at the time.

Re DNA, does the DNA of a Jewish person in the Middle East differ from an Arab's DNA?

I would imagine just like Paul persuading the people that he preached to that Jesus was indeed the Messiah gained him many followers too so I'm not quite sure what your point is there.

If this is actually true, then quite probably it could determine differences according to geographical location.

Where would YOU have lived 1,000 years ago? DNA 'satnav' can now pinpoint the village your ancestors once lived in

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2617698/Where-YOU-lived-1-000-years-ago-DNA-satnav-pinpoints-village-ancestors-inhabited.html#ixzz4U49uCb2l

Paul took Christianity to the Gentiles, so there was obviously a drastic change in the beliefs of those he convinced.

My point is that Mohammed didn't necessarily "tweak" an existing religion, he introduced a new one to those he converted.

My other point is that there's no such thing as "Islamic DNA" or "Muslim DNA".

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

I would imagine just like Paul persuading the people that he preached to that Jesus was indeed the Messiah gained him many followers too so I'm not quite sure what your point is there.

If this is actually true, then quite probably it could determine differences according to geographical location.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2617698/Where-YOU-lived-1-000-years-ago-DNA-satnav-pinpoints-village-ancestors-inhabited.html#ixzz4U49uCb2l

Paul took Christianity to the Gentiles, so there was obviously a drastic change in the beliefs of those he convinced.

My point is that Mohammed didn't necessarily "tweak" an existing religion, he introduced a new one to those he converted.

My other point is that there's no such thing as "Islamic DNA" or "Muslim DNA".

But you don't know whether Mohammed tweaked an existing religion or not. Islamic belief seems to be as I showed above that he restored the faith rather than created it so really it all comes down to what you personally believe.

I'm not about to trash what they believe anymore than what you believe.

No, there may not be, but as I believe they have actually identified Jews as a race so I would suggest their DNA is possibly distinct from other people in the locality.

I don't know enough about DNA though to really make any judgements on it.

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Paul took Christianity to the Gentiles, so there was obviously a drastic change in the beliefs of those he convinced.

My point is that Mohammed didn't necessarily "tweak" an existing religion, he introduced a new one to those he converted.

My other point is that there's no such thing as "Islamic DNA" or "Muslim DNA".

But you don't know whether Mohammed tweaked an existing religion or not.  Islamic belief seems to be as I showed above that he restored the faith rather than created it so really it all comes down to what you personally believe.

I'm not about to trash what they believe anymore than what you believe.

No, there may not be, but as I believe they have actually identified Jews as a race so I would suggest their DNA is possibly distinct from other people in the locality.

I don't know enough about DNA though to really make any judgements on it.

You don't know that he tweaked an existing religion either. As you said, what you showed is what Muslims believe, but I'm not a Muslim and I see it differently. Suggesting that Islam didn't exist at the time Jesus was born isn't trashing Islam, it's just having a different opinion.

The DNA thing is just nonsense. Muslims can't be identified by their DNA any more than Christians can.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

But you don't know whether Mohammed tweaked an existing religion or not.  Islamic belief seems to be as I showed above that he restored the faith rather than created it so really it all comes down to what you personally believe.

I'm not about to trash what they believe anymore than what you believe.

No, there may not be, but as I believe they have actually identified Jews as a race so I would suggest their DNA is possibly distinct from other people in the locality.

I don't know enough about DNA though to really make any judgements on it.

You don't know that he tweaked an existing religion either. As you said, what you showed is what Muslims believe, but I'm not a Muslim and I see it differently. Suggesting that Islam didn't exist at the time Jesus was born isn't trashing Islam, it's just having a different opinion.

The DNA thing is just nonsense. Muslims can't be identified by their DNA any more than Christians can.

So them believing that Jesus was a prophet rather than the son of god shouldn't make any difference to you then?

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You don't know that he tweaked an existing religion either. As you said, what you showed is what Muslims believe, but I'm not a Muslim and I see it differently. Suggesting that Islam didn't exist at the time Jesus was born isn't trashing Islam, it's just having a different opinion.

The DNA thing is just nonsense. Muslims can't be identified by their DNA any more than Christians can.

So them believing that Jesus was a prophet rather than the son of god shouldn't make any difference to you then?

A difference in what way?

Spindleshanks wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Paul took Christianity to the Gentiles, so there was obviously a drastic change in the beliefs of those he convinced.

My point is that Mohammed didn't necessarily "tweak" an existing religion, he introduced a new one to those he converted.

My other point is that there's no such thing as "Islamic DNA" or "Muslim DNA".

But you don't know whether Mohammed tweaked an existing religion or not.  Islamic belief seems to be as I showed above that he restored the faith rather than created it so really it all comes down to what you personally believe.

I'm not about to trash what they believe anymore than what you believe.

No, there may not be, but as I believe they have actually identified Jews as a race so I would suggest their DNA is possibly distinct from other people in the locality.

I don't know enough about DNA though to really make any judgements on it.

Islamic belief is full of falsehoods and contradictions...

Which religious belief is not?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Spindleshanks wrote:

So them believing that Jesus was a prophet rather than the son of god shouldn't make any difference to you then?

A difference in what way?

Your opinion of Jesus as the Messiah.

They see it differently to you which given the Christian belief that Christianity is the only true religion must seem like an insult.