Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

by Ben Reilly Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:25 am

First topic message reminder :

Several of Donald Trump’s most prominent Hispanic supporters are reconsidering their support following his major speech on immigration Wednesday.

Jacob Monty, an attorney based in Houston, resigned from the Republican candidate’s National Hispanic Advisory Council after hearing the speech in Phoenix, Politico reported early Thursday morning.

“I was a strong supporter of Donald Trump when I believed he was going to address the immigration problem realistically and compassionately,” Monty told the news site. “What I heard today was not realistic and not compassionate.”

After weeks of toying with “softening” his deportation-based approach to illegal immigration, the GOP nominee on Wednesday gave a speech in which he embraced the hard-line policies and incendiary rhetoric that defined his primary campaign. He said that anyone in the United States illegally would be subject to deportation and vowed to bolster security at the U.S.-Mexico border.

For many Hispanic conservatives like Monty, who had advocated passionately for Trump, the speech was not merely a disappointment, but a betrayal. They hoped the candidate would lay out a plan for dealing humanely with the estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants already in the country, especially those with no involvement in violent crime.

Trump’s support among Latino voters is far beneath that of past Republican candidates, according to public polls, which presents a unique challenge for the mogul as he seeks to win key states — like Florida, Nevada and Colorado — with large Hispanic constituencies. On Thursday, Democrat Hillary Clinton’s campaign began to run ads in Arizona, a historically Republican state but with a large number of Latino voters.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-hispanic-fans-abandoning-ship-000000609.html

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:09 am

Tommy Monk wrote:I didn't put a figure on it... just posted the govt given percentage...

The other figures were supplied by Quill and Ben...

Just goes to show again that wolfboy is a complete twat who doesn't know what he is talking about!!!

And he only drops in to launch personal attacks on me for no reason!!!

Actually, Wolf is quite right. That's why I wouldn't go ahead and and extend the 3%, because I couldn't tell if you were speaking of workforce or total population. I still don't know, so I await your answer tommy.

The 11.2 million undocumented residents are the whole numbers that are used by the media here, and it is pretty constant from year to year.. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:11 am

These are your governments figures for unemployed rate...

Sep 2, 2016 - Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in August, and the unemployment rate remained at 4.9 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today...

Here in uk it is only those of working age who are out of work and claiming 'job seekers allowance' benefit who are listed in the figures for being 'unemployed'... and the percentage given is out of all those of working age who are claiming this job seeking benefit...

I have always been under the impression that this was the same measure used in other countries including the usa...?

If this is not the case then maybe you could explain what is...?

And if this is the case then why the waffle about how I don't understand the figures...!!!???

The other figures that were floated on this thread for numbers of illegal immigrants were from Quill and Ben... and I have no idea whether they were referring to total number of people (young/old/sick/working age/working/not working etc) because they simply haven't specified this important detail so far in any of their posts...!

But how can they really know any real accurate numbers for any of the illegal immigrants or groups... as the fact that they are illegal and hiding under the radar in the corners of society...!?

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:44 am

Without a source your point is unsubstantiated, tommy. Sorry, you need to substantiate a factual assertion.

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:16 pm

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:41 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

The United States Bureau of Labor Statistics does not keep track of undocumented persons living within the United States. I told you I, myself, use the 4 - 5% figure with respect to unemployment, pointing out that bringing unemployment down to that level from the near 10% of GW Bush is one of the many commendable achievements of the Barack Obama administration.

But you are trying to mix apples and oranges when you try to figure undocumented persons into the unemployed population. The two have nothing to do with one another. Thus, predictably, there are few cross-tabulations of the populations of each.

The problem is, as I clearly explained, I can't verify your +/- 3% figure. I can (and have) substantiated the 11.2-million whole-number figure for the undocumented, but I have no idea to what population your 3% is applied. The Bureau of Labor Statistics is not the proper source for undocumented people.

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:05 pm

I am not fudging illegal immigrants into the unemployment figures.

Those figures are for American citizens.

The 3% is not mine... it was provided by Ben or yourself earlier on this thread.

So Wolf is not quite right at all... and neither are you!!!

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:These are your governments figures for unemployed rate...

Sep 2, 2016 - Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in August, and the unemployment rate remained at 4.9 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today...

Here in uk it is only those of working age who are out of work and claiming 'job seekers allowance' benefit who are listed in the figures for being 'unemployed'... and the percentage given is out of all those of working age who are claiming this job seeking benefit...

I have always been under the impression that this was the same measure used in other countries including the usa...?

If this is not the case then maybe you could explain what is...?

And if this is the case then why the waffle about how I don't understand the figures...!!!???

The other figures that were floated on this thread for numbers of illegal immigrants were from Quill and Ben... and I have no idea whether they were referring to total number of people (young/old/sick/working age/working/not working etc) because they simply haven't specified this important detail so far in any of their posts...!

But how can they really know any real accurate numbers for any of the illegal immigrants or groups... as the fact that they are illegal and hiding under the radar in the corners of society...!?

And of course here in uk, illegal immigrants cannot claim job seeking benefits... so the figures are of only people in uk who are entitled to be here.

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I am not fudging illegal immigrants into the unemployment figures.

Those figures are for American citizens.

The 3% is not mine... it was provided by Ben or yourself earlier on this thread.

So, if you can neither confirm, nor disconfirm the figure, you have no idea what it means. Thus, it cannot be used in your argument. How can you use something you don't fully understand?

Tommy Monk wrote:So Wolf is not quite right at all... and neither are you!!!

More than ever, Wolf is right. What you cannot identify is your denominator; is it total population or workforce?

A percentage is ultimately a fraction. The term 3% is nothing more than 3/100's of something. That 'something' is essential, as it the topic you are discussing: it means 3/100's of something, but what? What Wolf has pointed out is that you cannot say if your topic is total population, or workforce population.

What I have been trying to do is ask the same question. What is the 3% of, workforce, or population, or your mama's lingerie? You've done this on several occasions: put out a percentage without saying what it is of. Here you see why it is important.

If Wolf gets it, and I teach it, where are the English as represented by you, tommy?

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And of course here in uk, illegal immigrants cannot claim job seeking benefits... so the figures are of only people in uk who are entitled to be here.

Ok, you've explained why you are confused. But you still have not straightened it out.

This isn't the UK we are talking about; it's the US. You still have not done the research necessary to interpret your own figures for us. Are you talking about workforce, total population, or something else?

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:38 pm

I never claimed 3% about anything you dim wit!!!

That was a percentage claimed by Ben or yourself earlier on this thread about number of illegals in the country!!!

WTF are you going on about man!!!???

lol!

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:50 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I never claimed 3% about anything you dim wit!!!

Now don't become ugly merely because you are losing. Try to handle yourself calmly and rationally regardless of outcome. That way you show you are trying to get at the truth, not merely arguing to make yourself look good (or not look bad, as the case may be).

Tommy Monk wrote:That was a percentage claimed by Ben or yourself earlier on this thread about number of illegals in the country!!!

WTF are you going on about man!!!???

But the point is, you were using the statistical expression and asking me to account for it. This whole thing arose as a sidebar discussion, as I didn't understand how you were using the figures, and the sources of them.

So, you were using figures you can't account for. That's what we've both been going on about.

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:11 pm

I was repeating the figures you and Ben had already made claim to on this thread!!!

You said illegals were 11 million... Ben said they made up 3% of population!!!

It appears that both of you are using figures you cannot account for!!!

And God most simple and obvious reasons being the fact that you cannot possibly really know how many illegals are in the country because they are illegal and hide under the radar in the shadows of society...!!!

And you have the cheek to try to criticise me for figures/accuracy etc!!!???

lol!

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:12 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I was repeating the figures you and Ben had already made claim to on this thread!!!

You said illegals were 11 million... Ben said they made up 3% of population!!!

It appears that both of you are using figures you cannot account for!!!

Well, I can account for the figures I was using. I already did last night, on the clip from the NY Times. Regardless, of who came up with the "3%" figure, you used it. Apparently, you cannot account for it. I'm just saying: that leaves a hole in your argument.

Tommy Monk wrote:And God most simple and obvious reasons being the fact that you cannot possibly really know how many illegals are in the country because they are illegal and hide under the radar in the shadows of society...!!!

And you have the cheek to try to criticise me for figures/accuracy etc!!!???

Good heavens, how you repeat yourself. I've posted my source. You haven't posted your source. Can it be any plainer?

I'm getting tired of this. If you have anything new, I'll listen. Otherwise, I'll just give you a ditto. Rolling Eyes

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:31 pm

These were the figures I posted...

Sep 2, 2016 - Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in August, and the unemployment rate remained at 4.9 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today...

And they came from your govt!!!

Here is the source of the summary...

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Now... how can you know for sure how many illegals are in the country when by definition, they are not registered anywhere on any systems, they hide under the radar and in the shadows of society, making it impossible to really know...!?

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

These were the figures I posted...

Sep 2, 2016 - Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in August, and the unemployment rate remained at 4.9 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today...

And they came from your govt!!!

Here is the source of the summary...

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Now... how can you know for sure how many illegals are in the country when by definition, they are not registered anywhere on any systems, they hide under the radar and in the shadows of society, making it impossible to really know...!?

Same ole, same ole, tommy. Ditto.

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:36 pm

You and Ben are quite happy to use unsubstantiated figures for your arguments... but when the exact same figures are used back at you, you bleat about them being unsubstantiated and therefore unusable!!!

Another example of leftie hypocrisy...!!!

lol!

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:42 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

You and Ben are quite happy to use unsubstantiated figures for your arguments... but when the exact same figures are used back at you, you bleat about them being unsubstantiated and therefore unusable!!!

Another example of leftie hypocrisy...!!!

My how you do go on and on, with nothing. It was Goebbels who said: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Donald Trump agrees, obviously.

These are other RW'rs, btw.

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:34 pm

The only figures I have put up are the official unemployment ones from your Obama govt...

The other 2 figures for number of illegals in your country were put up by you and Ben...

Who are you saying is lying now...!?

lol!

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:06 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The only figures I have put up are the official unemployment ones from your Obama govt...

The other 2 figures for number of illegals in your country were put up by you and Ben...

Who are you saying is lying now...!?

Haha...you don't even have the right source for my 11.2-million. Here is is: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

US Bureau of Labor Statistics for immigration data? Good luck. Rolling Eyes

by Tommy Monk Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

The only figures I have put up are the official unemployment ones from your Obama govt...

The other 2 figures for number of illegals in your country were put up by you and Ben...

Who are you saying is lying now...!?

Haha...you don't even have the right source for my 11.2-million. Here is is: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

US Bureau of Labor Statistics for immigration data? Good luck.

So now you put up a link to a highly speculative and spurious article from 2011 to try to validate your previous claims of 'accurate' numbers of illegal immigrants in the USA now in 2016...!?

lol!

And... how many times do I have to say that the only figures I have supplied to this thread are your current govts current official unemployment statistics for current USA CITIZENS and dated September 2016!!!???

lol!

The amount of flip flopping about you are doing... you could have won a gold for gymnastics at Rio!!!

lol!

by Original Quill Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Haha...you don't even have the right source for my 11.2-million. Here is is: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

US Bureau of Labor Statistics for immigration data? Good luck.

So now you put up a link to a highly speculative and spurious article from 2011 to try to validate your previous claims of 'accurate' numbers of illegal immigrants in the USA now in 2016...!?

And... how many times do I have to say that the only figures I have supplied to this thread are your current govts current official unemployment statistics for current USA CITIZENS and dated September 2016!!!???

The amount of flip flopping about you are doing... you could have won a gold for gymnastics at Rio!!!

I said when I posted the New York Times article:

Original Quill wrote:The 11.2 million undocumented residents are the whole numbers that are used by the media here, and it is pretty constant from year to year.. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

Nothing catastrophic has occurred to change things.

by Tommy Monk Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:16 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

So now you put up a link to a highly speculative and spurious article from 2011 to try to validate your previous claims of 'accurate' numbers of illegal immigrants in the USA now in 2016...!?

And... how many times do I have to say that the only figures I have supplied to this thread are your current govts current official unemployment statistics for current USA CITIZENS and dated September 2016!!!???

The amount of flip flopping about you are doing... you could have won a gold for gymnastics at Rio!!!

I said when I posted the New York Times article:

Original Quill wrote:The 11.2 million undocumented residents are the whole numbers that are used by the media here, and it is pretty constant from year to year.. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

Nothing catastrophic has occurred to change things.

At last!!!

You are admitting what you posted before, confirming that the figure is presented as a sum total of illegals/undocumented in the country out of total population as a whole (somewhat giving legitimacy to bens 3% figure too that he posted earlier), also admitting that the figures are not only just completely made up guesstimations and without any sound justifiable factual basis... but also that these wild estimated figures are from a 2011 rough guess estimate...!!!

lol!

These were the figures you and Ben were boldly and unashamedly using in your arguments!!!

lol!

But you then had the cheek to try to tell me that these figures were 'unusable' because they were 'unsubstantiated' when I used them in a return argument throwing them back at you...!!!???

Laughing

Most amusing!!!

by Original Quill Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:46 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I said when I posted the New York Times article:

Nothing catastrophic has occurred to change things.

At last!!!

You are admitting what you posted before, confirming that the figure is presented as a sum total of illegals/undocumented in the country out of total population as a whole (somewhat giving legitimacy to bens 3% figure too that he posted earlier), also admitting that the figures are not only just completely made up guesstimations and without any sound justifiable factual basis... but also that these wild estimated figures are from a 2011 rough guess estimate...!!!

These were the figures you and Ben were boldly and unashamedly using in your arguments!!!

But you then had the cheek to try to tell me that these figures were 'unusable' because they were 'unsubstantiated' when I used them in a return argument throwing them back at you...!!!???

Most amusing!!!

You really need to pay attention, tommy. I've been telling you all along that I don't question the 11.2-million whole number figure. It was my number and I've given the source a half-dozen times. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

Where I don't see the substantiation is for the 3% figure. 3% of what, workforce or undocumented persons? Wolf asked you the same question...of what denominator is your percentage?

You don't know, do you?

by Ben Reilly Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:38 am

I never made the claim that illegal immigrants are 3 percent of the U.S. population, I pointed out that the 11.2 million figure would be equal to 3 percent of the U.S. population.

We don't count illegal immigrants in our census, so the 3 percent figure I gave was just to provide a basis of comparison.

For another comparison, Asians are still a pretty small minority in the U.S. (and we don't call people from the Middle East "Asians;" our "Asians" are from East Asia, mostly Vietnamese and Chinese) but they still overwhelm the number of illegal immigrants.

by Tommy Monk Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

At last!!!

You are admitting what you posted before, confirming that the figure is presented as a sum total of illegals/undocumented in the country out of total population as a whole (somewhat giving legitimacy to bens 3% figure too that he posted earlier), also admitting that the figures are not only just completely made up guesstimations and without any sound justifiable factual basis... but also that these wild estimated figures are from a 2011 rough guess estimate...!!!

These were the figures you and Ben were boldly and unashamedly using in your arguments!!!

But you then had the cheek to try to tell me that these figures were 'unusable' because they were 'unsubstantiated' when I used them in a return argument throwing them back at you...!!!???

Most amusing!!!

You really need to pay attention, tommy. I've been telling you all along that I don't question the 11.2-million whole number figure. It was my number and I've given the source a half-dozen times. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/02/us/02immig.html?_r=0

Where I don't see the substantiation is for the 3% figure. 3% of what, workforce or undocumented persons? Wolf asked you the same question...of what denominator is your percentage?

You don't know, do you?

The 3% figure was not mine!!!

How many times do I have to keep telling you!?

Ben just admitted it was a figure he threw into the thread!!!

lol!

by Original Quill Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:39 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The 3% figure was not mine!!!

How many times do I have to keep telling you!?

Ben just admitted it was a figure he threw into the thread!!!

If it's not yours, then you cannot stand by it. We'll retract it for just you.

Razz

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Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

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Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

Re: Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him