Trump throws his own Latino supporters under the bus and they're deserting him

First topic message reminder :

Several of Donald Trump’s most prominent Hispanic supporters are reconsidering their support following his major speech on immigration Wednesday.

Jacob Monty, an attorney based in Houston, resigned from the Republican candidate’s National Hispanic Advisory Council after hearing the speech in Phoenix, Politico reported early Thursday morning.

“I was a strong supporter of Donald Trump when I believed he was going to address the immigration problem realistically and compassionately,” Monty told the news site. “What I heard today was not realistic and not compassionate.”

After weeks of toying with “softening” his deportation-based approach to illegal immigration, the GOP nominee on Wednesday gave a speech in which he embraced the hard-line policies and incendiary rhetoric that defined his primary campaign. He said that anyone in the United States illegally would be subject to deportation and vowed to bolster security at the U.S.-Mexico border.

For many Hispanic conservatives like Monty, who had advocated passionately for Trump, the speech was not merely a disappointment, but a betrayal. They hoped the candidate would lay out a plan for dealing humanely with the estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants already in the country, especially those with no involvement in violent crime.

Trump’s support among Latino voters is far beneath that of past Republican candidates, according to public polls, which presents a unique challenge for the mogul as he seeks to win key states — like Florida, Nevada and Colorado — with large Hispanic constituencies. On Thursday, Democrat Hillary Clinton’s campaign began to run ads in Arizona, a historically Republican state but with a large number of Latino voters.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-hispanic-fans-abandoning-ship-000000609.html

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... you are still doing the old 'it's a Republican argument so it's bullshit' routine...

You keep forgetting that I'm English and resident in uk... my arguments are not left/right or democrat/Republican... I have no vote in America, and if I did, I wouldn't want to vote for either candidate!!!


Now it's just complete waffle to try to claim that being unemployed isn't a problem for those millions of people who are unemployed and want jobs!!!

And of course it has many problems directly for them in poor quality of life as well as knock on negative effects to their communities, as well as huge costs to govt through benefits payouts instead of incoming tax dollars.

If there really were no jobs for most of these unemployed people then that would be one thing... but when there are millions of illegal immigrants in the country doing jobs illegally and on the cheap etc... then it is quite unacceptable...

I find your position on this to be most peculiar... another example of leftie 'quantum thinking'...!

What makes you think that if we got rid of all undocumented aliens, there would be jobs for blacks?  

You really don't understand racism, do you?  Blacks have high unemployment because they are first singled out as racially undesirable, and then, second, shunted aside as employment misfits.  That is why typically, on any given Sunday, blacks have higher unemployment than whites.

So, first you fix racism, then you can use the available pool of black labor as an excuse to get rid of undocumented aliens.  With discrimination in employment, the argument doesn't work.  Perhaps if you got rid of undocumented aliens there would be more jobs for whites, but with a vacuum of 11.2-million gone and unemployment at 4.9, I suspect that the job market would just go dry and unfilled.  Because a racist employer is certainly not going to hire a black job seeker.

I think one of te problems is that us brits just dont "get" the politics in america OR understand the depth breadth and depravity of racism over there

I suspect 99% of brits really DONT understand why the "left" ..(liberalists??? ) (dunno) get so tetchy about racism in the states.

let alone what interpretaion is left/right etc

the american left is NOTHING like the british (or even more generally the european) left, appearing in many ways to be more anarchist than anything else, whilst the european left is authoritarian left of the marxist mould. (I suspect Quill, that if you analysed my POV more carefully than you are wont at time that you may find I have considerably more in common with YOUR ideal of left than with either right OR left over here, in social policy at least...)

I never said there would be jobs for all of the black people there... but there would be many more jobs for black people there... as well as for all the other unemployed usa citizens...


Blacks may have a higher rate of unemployment by percentage of actual black people in usa...


But the amount of non black unemployed is a much bigger number of people...



However... the choice is simple for any political group... do you support the idea of unemployed usa citizens having job opportunities...


Or do you support an army of illegal immigrants doing the jobs instead...?

Tommy Monk wrote:

I never said there would be jobs for all of the black people there... but there would be many more jobs for black people there... as well as for all the other unemployed usa citizens...

Blacks may have a higher rate of unemployment by percentage of actual black people in usa...

But the amount of non black unemployed is a much bigger number of people...

However... the choice is simple for any political group... do you support the idea of unemployed usa citizens having job opportunities...

Or do you support an army of illegal immigrants doing the jobs instead...?

Unemployment is not a problem in the US. Obama has reduced it to a minimum, and it certainly is not such a problem that we would displace millions of families that have lived among us as good neighbors.

Better that we found a way to give them citizenship, and not hardship.

So are you saying that the current lot of unemployed are just work shy good for nothing scroungers...?


And that they don't really want to work at all...?

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying that the current lot of unemployed are just work shy good for nothing scroungers...?

And that they don't really want to work at all...?

No, the studies today account for those who are no longer looking for work--the so-called unemployed/not-looking category.

What I'm speaking of are those removed from the workforce simply by discrimination in hiring.

Whites greatly outnumber blacks in that... can you explain the 'discrimination'...?


And tell us why someone who doesn't want to work should be given benefits money that is on the condition that they are looking for work...!?

Lord Foul wrote:I think one of te problems is that us brits just dont "get" the politics in america OR understand the depth breadth and depravity of racism over there

I suspect 99% of brits really DONT understand why the "left" ..(liberalists??? ) (dunno) get so tetchy about racism in the states.

let alone what interpretaion is left/right etc

the american left is NOTHING like the british (or even more generally the european) left, appearing in many ways to be more anarchist than anything else, whilst the european left is authoritarian left of the marxist mould. (I suspect Quill, that if you analysed my POV more carefully than you are wont at time that you may find I have considerably more in common with YOUR ideal of left than with either right OR left over here, in social policy at least...)

it's sort of true

new world left is about 'change and adatpation'
old world left acts as an extention of colonialism like it can dictate a system as opposed to work within and influence a system.
this is also seen in the brexit options, 'accept it as is' or leave, no negotiation.

rigth wing (both) is about greed, fear and the 'cult of cultism'.
the Rigth wing of Europe is less in economic extermeism,
but over encumbered with ultranationistic xenophobs.
and the new world is vice versa.

veya_victaous wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:I think one of te problems is that us brits just dont "get" the politics in america OR understand the depth breadth and depravity of racism over there

I suspect 99% of brits really DONT understand why the "left" ..(liberalists??? ) (dunno) get so tetchy about racism in the states.

let alone what interpretaion is left/right etc

the american left is NOTHING like the british (or even more generally the european) left, appearing in many ways to be more anarchist than anything else, whilst the european left is authoritarian left of the marxist mould. (I suspect Quill, that if you analysed my POV more carefully than you are wont at time that you may find I have considerably more in common with YOUR ideal of left than with either right OR left over here, in social policy at least...)

it's sort of true

new world left is about 'change and adatpation'
old world left acts as an extention of colonialism like it can dictate a system as opposed to work within and influence a system.
this is also seen in the brexit options, 'accept it as is' or leave, no negotiation.

rigth wing (both) is about greed, fear and the 'cult of cultism'.
the Rigth wing of Europe is less in economic extermeism,
but over encumbered with ultranationistic xenophobs.
and the new world is vice versa.

The American left is far more LW than that of Europe...it is older, yet more modern that the LW of the UK and the rest of Europe.  This is because Europe has been so preoccupied with labor-socialism.  Your LW party is even labeled "Labour".  To be a representative of labor is to be just another self-interested interest group.  So your leftest political party is no better than our Republican, selfish and self-interested mob.  

America never went through a socialist period, and in fact resisted it ideologically for decades.  But at our founding we wrote leftish principles down in a Constitution, and they have turned out to be the timeless principles of the left wing, bending with the issues as they arise.  Our leftist group fights for the everyman, whatever his occupation, whatever his political persuasion.

And look where we Americans end up.  We have timeless freedom of religion, and we have no state religion.  We have freedom of assembly.  We have freedom of association.  We have freedom to redress our government.  We have freedom of speech.  It's all timeless, and it's all ensconced in a higher law, guaranteed in a written Constitution with a Supremacy Clause.  In the UK, you have no redress, you have a state religion, you have no real freedom of religion, you have no freedom of assembly or association, and your freedom of speech is subject to the whimsy of the day,

Our liberals are true leftists.  Look no further than your leftmost politicians--for example, Tony Blair--who ends up in the lap of, literally, Fascists.  And you still have no one as left as Blair to this very day.  Our leftists stay on the left, while your's are all over the place.  That's because yours are not grounded in principles, but to allegiance to a selfish, self-interest group (Labor).

And we have a New Left side to our liberal wing.  Believe me, having gone to Berkeley I know.  Bernie Sanders represents that side today, along with Elizabeth Warren.  So our LW has a growing leftward movement that your politics do not have with it's commitment to a single dimension labor issue...which was, frankly, over in the 1930's.  There's no expansion and intellectual frontier in European LW politics, sorry to say.

This is why I say our LW is far more leftish than Europe's.  In our Democratic Party we have found a force that truly represents everyone, by representing principles regardless of who is in the chair.  Do you see why I auger for the demise of the Republican Party?  Without them, it would be perfect.  Over there, you''re still stuck in interest groups...labour...green...Tories, and self-interest everywhere.

the USA has hardly any Real Left wing politicans.
both sides 100% in the pocket of big business
systematically unable to be left wing,
through the lack of ownership of public infrastucture

Australia and NZ are leaders of Left wing policies because we can have the socialist core to our infrastucture, inherited from the Uk, and highly progressive attitudes found in new world nations not weigthed down with arachic traditions.

cultrally the USA struggles with freedom, example the dude that didnt stand for an anthem is getting hammered, sure in law he is free in practice far from it as there is the over reaching Cultural convservativism
here it is the opposite for many things it might be agaisnt the law but but culturally it's fine.

Plus religion is a much bigger deal in the USA than down here.
you have 'freedom of religon' but we have 'freedom from religion' instead.


The Blair arguemnt is silly. like the Uk had a choice.
the UK cannot decide on it's own ot is part iof the westrern empire and dont for a second think that tony didn't get paid. Bush was paying everyone to be willing memebers of the coalition.
it is the peseants inablity to accept this basic fact of vassalhood that causes the majority of their nations issues. So unlike down here where Howard, a right wing leader still more left than Hilliary or Obama (he banned the guns), could just say 'the USA said so', 'the USA has requested we do this ' and the Aussie goes 'well, we got no choice then' and it is just accepted. we don't hold it against Howard like the Brits hold it against Blair.


P.S. Our Right wing party is 'the Liberals' because the right side of our politics is in line with US liberals.

Labour represents the centre left
True Left are the Greens.
the USA simply has nothing in that sphere of politics.

Greens talk of increasing reparations (you guys still need to start reparations),
living wage for all citizens from gov't, massive enviromental projects.
universal free health care (making our system which is a better NHS even better)
free university education. take more refugees etc etc

veya wrote:Australia and NZ are leaders of Left wing policies because we can have the socialist core to our infrastucture, inherited from the Uk, and highly progressive attitudes found in new world nations not weigthed down with arachic traditions.

Complete nonsense.  Tony Abbot and Malcolm Turnbull are leftists?  The reality is that while you can talk a good leftist game, Australia (and NZ) keep putting into office these totally RW politicians. Now Canada...there's a leftist prime minister.

Wishes are not reality.  

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying that the current lot of unemployed are just work shy good for nothing scroungers...?

And that they don't really want to work at all...?

No, the studies today account for those who are no longer looking for work--the so-called unemployed/not-looking category.

What I'm speaking of are those removed from the workforce simply by discrimination in hiring.

Whites greatly outnumber blacks in that... can you explain the 'discrimination'...?


And tell us why someone who doesn't want to work should be given benefits money that is on the condition that they are looking for work..!?

I've been watching this thread. Sorry to go off topic but all I'm going to say is this....there are only two of you debating (until Veya posted), and it has stayed within a reasonable level of maturity: no name-calling, no abuse, no nastiness, sticking to the point.

I hope you conclude, that this is how a debate should go.
Thank you both.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

No, the studies today account for those who are no longer looking for work--the so-called unemployed/not-looking category.

What I'm speaking of are those removed from the workforce simply by discrimination in hiring.

Whites greatly outnumber blacks in that... can you explain the 'discrimination'...?

And tell us why someone who doesn't want to work should be given benefits money that is on the condition that they are looking for work..!?

Unemployment in the US is around 4.9%.  If you filter for white/black, you come up with black unemployment at about 9% and white unemployment at around 4.4%.  The difference is attributed to discrimination in hiring.

There is no question that blacks were once the subject of slavery, then peonage, then separate but equal, then segregation, and now discrimination.  All along this tragic course of events, blacks have been seated in the back of the bus, and given the crumbs at the table.  

There's no question that exclusion has been in play when hiring for jobs.  As a consequence, when unemployment is the subject, we expect a disparity in numbers between whites and blacks.

But as an actual number of people... white unemployed greatly outnumber black unemployed...



So are you saying they are all lazy work shy good for nothing scroungers...?


And none of them actually want to work..?


And do you support the illegal immigrants doing jobs on the cheap and not paying taxes when clamping down on this will create millions of jobs for the other unemployed usa citizens...?

eddie wrote:I've been watching this thread. Sorry to go off topic but all I'm going to say is this....there are only two of you debating (until Veya posted), and it has stayed within a reasonable level of maturity: no name-calling, no abuse, no nastiness, sticking to the point.

I hope you conclude, that this is how a debate should go.
Thank you both.

Thank you eds. I enjoy debating with Tommy because he stays on message and can be relentless. Sometimes I have to repeat myself, but repeating myself gives me practice expressing the same theory in several different ways...so I don't mind. I write for a living.

It's a lot different than discoursing with someone who quickly goes in for the personal insult. I try to ignore those and return to the subject, but with some that lesson is missed completely.

It's been a pleasure reading this thread. There's nothing I can add, but it's been a great read.

Tommy Monk wrote:But as an actual number of people... white unemployed greatly outnumber black unemployed...

No, to the contrary, black unemployment in the US is presently at 9%, while white unemployment is at 4.4%.  But I think I see what you mean.  You mean in whole numbers, whites are the greater volume of the unemployed.

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying they are all lazy work shy good for nothing scroungers...?

And none of them actually want to work..?

I suppose that's one theory, or hypothesis.

But I think it is wrong to look upon employment as something negative, and conversely, at unemployment as something that the lazy would relish.  I think that most people find fulfillment in their work, whatever it may be, and so they seek work as a matter of positive, personal satisfaction.

Tommy Monk wrote:And do you support the illegal immigrants doing jobs on the cheap and not paying taxes when clamping down on this will create millions of jobs for the other unemployed usa citizens...?

Of course, full employment is a plus, but perhaps not a priority in this instance.  Given the low unemployment rate that President Obama has us in presently, we can look to other concerns associated with wholesale ripping apart of society.  

For an extreme example, you might suggest taking out 11.2-million people and shooting them, as a means of reaching full employment.  But some might find that a callous way to reduce unemployment.  Likewise, mass deportation of people merely because of their ethnicity would cause great hardship and is disfavored by most people.  

I think that given the relatively low problem presented by Hispanics and their employment, and the valuable contribution they make to our society, most people would be (and demonstrably are) in favor of giving them an easy path to citizenship in lieu of the deportation option.

Original Quill wrote:

veya wrote:Australia and NZ are leaders of Left wing policies because we can have the socialist core to our infrastucture, inherited from the Uk, and highly progressive attitudes found in new world nations not weigthed down with arachic traditions.

Complete nonsense.  Tony Abbot and Malcolm Turnbull are leftists?  The reality is that while you can talk a good leftist game, Australia (and NZ) keep putting into office these totally RW politicians.  Now Canada...there's a leftist prime minister.

Wishes are not reality.  

turnbull is pretty centre, with strong enviromental policies.

Abbott while the most right wing leader we have had, is still to the left of obama on healthcare, education, minimum wages, unemployment benifits, pensions, employment conditions etc.


and it is the system not the leader our systems are very left wing in comparison to the USA (so is the UK) it is structural and nothing you can say will change the fact that WE OWN OUR HOSPITALS, you do not. even Canadians don't own their hospitals which is why they are not as left wing.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:But as an actual number of people... white unemployed greatly outnumber black unemployed...

No, to the contrary, black unemployment in the US is presently at 9%, while white unemployment is at 4.4%.  But I think I see what you mean.  You mean in whole numbers, whites are the greater volume of the unemployed.

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying they are all lazy work shy good for nothing scroungers...?

And none of them actually want to work..?

I suppose that's one theory, or hypothesis.

But I think it is wrong to look upon employment as something negative, and conversely, at unemployment as something that the lazy would relish.  I think that most people find fulfillment in their work, whatever it may be, and so they seek work as a matter of positive, personal satisfaction.

Tommy Monk wrote:And do you support the illegal immigrants doing jobs on the cheap and not paying taxes when clamping down on this will create millions of jobs for the other unemployed usa citizens...?

Of course, full employment is a plus, but perhaps not a priority in this instance.  Given the low unemployment rate that President Obama has us in presently, we can look to other concerns associated with wholesale ripping apart of society.  

For an extreme example, you might suggest taking out 11.2-million people and shooting them, as a means of reaching full employment.  But some might find that a callous way to reduce unemployment.  Likewise, mass deportation of people merely because of their ethnicity would cause great hardship and is disfavored by most people.  

I think that given the relatively low problem presented by Hispanics and their employment, and the valuable contribution they make to our society, most people would be (and demonstrably are) in favor of giving them an easy path to citizenship in lieu of the deportation option.

Black people make up around 12-13% of population of usa... so 9% of them unemployed as an overall total number is much smaller number of people than 5% of the rest of the country's population... which also includes large numbers of people other than black/white... many will themselves be hispanic legal usa citizens who want work but are also unable to get work because of the abundance of illegal immigrant hispanic workers doing the work illegally and on the cheap!!!



Honestly... how can you even start to reconcile your arguments that you/democrats are left wing and socialist leaning etc... mouthing off about how much you care about the poor and unemployed (especially black and other non white communities) etc... and going on about how they all want/need jobs but are 'discriminated' against etc... when the reality is that you are well aware of the existence of a black market work force of up to 11 million illegal immigrants in the country who are doing so much of the work that could be being done by so many of the unemployed people who you purport to care about so much...


But then instead of talking about looking after the poor unemployed (black/brown/hispanic/white) usa citizens and helping them get more job opportunities by clamping down on illegal immigrants doing the jobs (often on the cheap/paying no taxes/exploited etc)... you then go on to say that the poor and desperate unemployed usa citizens are at a low enough % number rate that they are not worth worrying about... bollocks to their life chances and job opportunities etc... instead you care more about supporting the illegal immigrant workforce who pay no taxes and cost the country a fortune in depriving other usa citizens of the work and resulting benefits payments to them...!!!???



And on top of all this... you try to attack the Republicans as not caring about the poor/unemployed etc when they are saying they will do something about it and which will help the poor/unemployed American people get more jobs!!!



Your twisty waffle is becoming beyond laughable!!!

Hi tommy.

See my response in the top section, "Site News and Announcements", This forum is for debate...page 2.

Doesn't answer the points of argument raised here.

Tommy Monk wrote:Doesn't answer the points of argument raised here.

I thought it did. Can you identify the points your are talking about?

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:But as an actual number of people... white unemployed greatly outnumber black unemployed...

No, to the contrary, black unemployment in the US is presently at 9%, while white unemployment is at 4.4%.  But I think I see what you mean.  You mean in whole numbers, whites are the greater volume of the unemployed.

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying they are all lazy work shy good for nothing scroungers...?

And none of them actually want to work..?

I suppose that's one theory, or hypothesis.

But I think it is wrong to look upon employment as something negative, and conversely, at unemployment as something that the lazy would relish.  I think that most people find fulfillment in their work, whatever it may be, and so they seek work as a matter of positive, personal satisfaction.

Tommy Monk wrote:And do you support the illegal immigrants doing jobs on the cheap and not paying taxes when clamping down on this will create millions of jobs for the other unemployed usa citizens...?

Of course, full employment is a plus, but perhaps not a priority in this instance.  Given the low unemployment rate that President Obama has us in presently, we can look to other concerns associated with wholesale ripping apart of society.  

For an extreme example, you might suggest taking out 11.2-million people and shooting them, as a means of reaching full employment.  But some might find that a callous way to reduce unemployment.  Likewise, mass deportation of people merely because of their ethnicity would cause great hardship and is disfavored by most people.  

I think that given the relatively low problem presented by Hispanics and their employment, and the valuable contribution they make to our society, most people would be (and demonstrably are) in favor of giving them an easy path to citizenship in lieu of the deportation option.

Black people make up around 12-13% of population of usa... so 9% of them unemployed as an overall total number is much smaller number of people than 5% of the rest of the country's population... which also includes large numbers of people other than black/white... many will themselves be hispanic legal usa citizens who want work but are also unable to get work because of the abundance of illegal immigrant hispanic workers doing the work illegally and on the cheap!!!



Honestly... how can you even start to reconcile your arguments that you/democrats are left wing and socialist leaning etc... mouthing off about how much you care about the poor and unemployed (especially black and other non white communities) etc... and going on about how they all want/need jobs but are 'discriminated' against etc... when the reality is that you are well aware of the existence of a black market work force of up to 11 million illegal immigrants in the country who are doing so much of the work that could be being done by so many of the unemployed people who you purport to care about so much...


But then instead of talking about looking after the poor unemployed (black/brown/hispanic/white) usa citizens and helping them get more job opportunities by clamping down on illegal immigrants doing the jobs (often on the cheap/paying no taxes/exploited etc)... you then go on to say that the poor and desperate unemployed usa citizens are at a low enough % number rate that they are not worth worrying about... bollocks to their life chances and job opportunities etc... instead you care more about supporting the illegal immigrant workforce who pay no taxes and cost the country a fortune in depriving other usa citizens of the work and resulting benefits payments to them...!!!???



And on top of all this... you try to attack the Republicans as not caring about the poor/unemployed etc when they are saying they will do something about it and which will help the poor/unemployed American people get more jobs!!!



Your twisty waffle is becoming beyond laughable!!!

Still nothing Quill...?

I'm surprised you think unemployed American citizens should be denied opportunities of work in favour of support for millions of illegal immigrants in the country getting away with doing so many of these jobs illegally and on the cheap and not only costing the country but also depriving the country of vast sums of tax dollars...!!!???

Tommy Monk wrote:Black people make up around 12-13% of population of usa... so 9% of them unemployed as an overall total number is much smaller number of people than 5% of the rest of the country's population... which also includes large numbers of people other than black/white... many will themselves be hispanic legal usa citizens who want work but are also unable to get work because of the abundance of illegal immigrant hispanic workers doing the work illegally and on the cheap!!!

So on the one hand, you are minimizing black unemployment all that much more because they are a smaller part of the total population...

Tommy Monk wrote:Honestly... how can you even start to reconcile your arguments that you/democrats are left wing and socialist leaning etc... mouthing off about how much you care about the poor and unemployed (especially black and other non white communities) etc... and going on about how they all want/need jobs but are 'discriminated' against etc... when the reality is that you are well aware of the existence of a black market work force of up to 11 million illegal immigrants in the country who are doing so much of the work that could be being done by so many of the unemployed people who you purport to care about so much...

...while on the other hand, you want to punish Hispanics for being employed at the same time.  Why not punish whites for being former slave owners and yet holding down jobs that could go to blacks.  Or, perhaps we should take away the jobs of Mormons for believing in plural marriages, and give those jobs to blacks.

That's right tommy...if you answered the two have nothing to do with one another, you are correct.  Discrimination holds down black employment.  And that has nothing to do with Hispanics and Hispanic jobs.

If you want to take away jobs from hard working people, be sure to include former slave owners and Mormons...maybe people who have excessive parking tickets.  They, too, are lawbreakers who are taking away jobs from blacks, are they not?

Stop the illegal workers and remove them... then more jobs would be available for unemployed American citizens... black, white and hispanic American citizens!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Stop the illegal workers and remove them... then more jobs would be available for unemployed American citizens... black, white and hispanic American citizens!!!

You could apply that logic anywhere: stop the illegal parking and deport them...then more jobs would be available for unemployed legal drivers.

You are mixing two different subjects: employment and immigration.  If you think my example is out of the ordinary, remember that exile was once a common sentence for criminal wrongdoing.  If we reinstated exile as a penalty for illegal parking, we would have the same result...more jobs.

The fact is, it's all absurd because unemployment is so low today.  Obama has our economy humming, and frankly it is simply not a great burden. We now have the luxury of looking after other humanitarian pursuits.  The highest need right now is to settle the issue of the Hispanics living in America without documentation.  

Some of these undocumented people have children who were born here, making them US citizens.  It would be unconstitutional to deprive these children of their right to live in their native country because of a parent who is not a citizen.  It's a genuine dilemma, and one that cannot be solved unless we give the parents a realistic pathway to citizenship.  They've been productive friends and neighbors for decades...there, but for fortune, goes a valuable partner in citizenship.

Parking you fool...!?





I'm not mixing two unrelated things at all... illegal immigrants are in the millions and doing millions of jobs illegally... thus depriving millions of unemployed citizens from getting those jobs and working legally!!!


You democrats seem to care more about illegal immigrants than your own American citizens because you favour the continuation of illegals doing the jobs they are and are against taking action to stop them and remove them... and care much less about the unemployed American citizens who would jump at the chance of doing the jobs!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Parking you fool...!?



I'm not mixing two unrelated things at all... illegal immigrants are in the millions and doing millions of jobs illegally... thus depriving millions of unemployed citizens from getting those jobs and working legally!!!

I share your laughter.  But it's because that's how absurd is your link of immigration to unemployment.  It is just as easy to say that illegal parking is contributing to unemployment.

Unemployment is not caused by immigration.  The most that can be said is that if you create any wholesale deportation there will be a huge employment vacuum created.  That is true of any deportation, including if you deported illegal parking violators.  Lol.  In fact, you will likely cause an economic depression in many different areas, not just employment.  Food markets will suffer, automobile sales, utility services, and many, many markets because of the absence of consumers.  Economics is a huge circle.

Tommy Monk wrote:You democrats seem to care more about illegal immigrants than your own American citizens because you favour the continuation of illegals doing the jobs they are and are against taking action to stop them and remove them... and care much less about the unemployed American citizens who would jump at the chance of doing the jobs!!!

No, I think progressives have equal regard for all types of people.  It's simply that some are in greater need than others.  

Since Dr. Obama has fine-tuned the economy so well, the crisis in unemployment that President Bush created has quieted down.  Instead of unemployment crashing through the 8% barrier and rising when Bush left office, Obama has conquered the upheaval and brought unemployment down to closer to 4%, nearly half.  It's no longer a pressing crisis.

Where there is a striking need is for the plight of families who have spent decades contributing to American society, without benefit of documentation.  We need to address that need by giving them a path to citizenship.

Illegal immigrants in their millions doing work illegally obviously means less jobs available for regular American citizens... and of course means higher unemployment for American citizens than would otherwise be the case.



Simple logic and completely related!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Illegal immigrants in their millions doing work illegally obviously means less jobs available for regular American citizens... and of course means higher unemployment for American citizens than would otherwise be the case.

Simple logic and completely related!!!

"Regular"? I think you are indulging in the 'other guy' perception, automatically putting up racial or ethnic barriers between their kind and my kind. Truth is, they are 'other' because their papers distinguish them, not because they are irregular.

There is no casual link between not having papers, and unemployment. If there were a causal link, one would expect to see simultaneous variation. But in fact, while we have 11.2 undocumented people in the country, unemployment is falling markedly. If anything, having a sizable population of undocumented people appears to cause a robust employment picture.

Besides, you cannot micro-identify the mechanics between being undocumented and high unemployment. That's why I gave you the absurd association between parking violations and unemployment. Neither of them cause unemployment. Removal of any large population would affect the population of employed/unemployed, but that's not causation.

If work needs to be done then there are jobs for people to do it...


If you have a situation where illegal immigrants are doing a huge amount of this work illegally... then this of course means that the unemployment rate of legal American citizens will be much higher than it otherwise would because a huge number of them could and would be instead doing this required work!!!

The work obviously needs to be done and needs people to do it...!!!

You take away the illegal workers out of the equation... then that just leaves work that needs to be done and needs people to do it...!!!

Unemployed American citizens could do the work and need the work...!!!


You say you care about unemployed Americans and the poor etc... but you support illegal immigrants doing huge numbers of illegal jobs while also attacking the Republicans who propose to take action against illegal immigrants/workers which will create many more jobs for the unemployed poor American citizens to do...!!!


Your leftie thinking on this is beyond reason or logic...!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:If work needs to be done then there are jobs for people to do it...

If you have a situation where illegal immigrants are doing a huge amount of this work illegally... then this of course means that the unemployment rate of legal American citizens will be much higher than it otherwise would because a huge number of them could and would be instead doing this required work!!!

The work obviously needs to be done and needs people to do it...!!!

You take away the illegal workers out of the equation... then that just leaves work that needs to be done and needs people to do it...!!!

Unemployed American citizens could do the work and need the work...!!!

You say you care about unemployed Americans and the poor etc... but you support illegal immigrants doing huge numbers of illegal jobs while also attacking the Republicans who propose to take action against illegal immigrants/workers which will create many more jobs for the unemployed poor American citizens to do...!!!

Your leftie thinking on this is beyond reason or logic...!!!

Unemployment is not that big an issue as it hovers are around 4-4.5%. It's a red herring and you know it.

The sole issue with undocumented people is whether they will be wholly and ruthlessly deported, or whether they will be treated humanely and with dignity. Now, I know you (RW'rs) don't like people, and you in particular don't like people of other ethnic origins, but how would it look if America put 11.2 million people on the trail to deportation.



How are you going to identify them?



Then, how are you going to round them up?



And is the man going to be there for the photo op?



That's Europe, not America.

So you condemn president Obama for his record of tough action in deporting people then...!?


"...Since coming to office in 2009, Obama’s government has deported more than 2.5 million people—up 23% from the George W. Bush years. More shockingly, Obama is now on pace to deport more people than the sum of all 19 presidents who governed the United States from 1892-2000, according to government data..."



http://fusion.net/story/252637/obama-has-deported-more-immigrants-than-any-other-president-now-hes-running-up-the-score/

And I don't know why you keep giving false unemployment figures...


Sep 2, 2016 - Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in August, and the unemployment rate remained at 4.9 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today...



Plus... unemployment rate hasn't been below 4.5% since March 2007... rising to 10% in 2009/2010... and then steadily declining to current rate of 4.9%...

Tommy Monk wrote:


So you condemn president Obama for his record of tough action in deporting people then...!?

"...Since coming to office in 2009, Obama’s government has deported more than 2.5 million people—up 23% from the George W. Bush years. More shockingly, Obama is now on pace to deport more people than the sum of all 19 presidents who governed the United States from 1892-2000, according to government data..."

http://fusion.net/story/252637/obama-has-deported-more-immigrants-than-any-other-president-now-hes-running-up-the-score/

I'm not real fond of that eventuality, but it's my understanding that the ones deported were criminals and not families:

ABC News wrote:In fiscal year 2015, 91 percent of people removed from inside the U.S. were previously convicted of a crime.

The administration made the first priority "threats to national security, border security, and public safety." That includes gang members, convicted felons or charged with "aggravated felony" and anyone apprehended at the border trying to enter the country illegally.

In 2015, 81 percent, or 113,385, of the removals were the priority one removals.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Tommy Monk wrote:And I don't know why you keep giving false unemployment figures...

Sep 2, 2016 - Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in August, and the unemployment rate remained at 4.9 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today...

Plus... unemployment rate hasn't been below 4.5% since March 2007... rising to 10% in 2009/2010... and then steadily declining to current rate of 4.9%...

4.9%

When you are talking 1% of a population so large as America... that is a lot of people!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:When you are talking 1% of a population so large as America... that is a lot of people!!!

And the other 99% are 99 times the size of the 1%.  Numbers are big on both sides...that's why we use summary statistics.

Imagine 11.2 of the population being pushed around.  From 1817 to 1858, the last time the US forced a migration, the US tried to force the Native Americans of the Seminoles, Black Seminoles and Creeks to move as a nation to Oklahoma:

Wiki wrote:During the period of the Seminole Wars (1818–1858), the tribe was first confined to a large reservation in the center of the Florida peninsula by the Treaty of Moultrie Creek (1823) and then evicted from the territory altogether according to the Treaty of Payne's Landing (1832).[4] By 1842, most Seminoles and Black Seminoles had been coerced or forced to move to Indian Territory west of the Mississippi River.

It was a sad time in American history.  The textbooks that I grew up with in my school, all admitted and deplored the shame of it all.  Yet, here we are, with Republicans trying to do the exact same thing today!

Now you're waffling...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Now you're waffling...

First you are whining that 7.5-million is too much.  Now you are dismissive of 11.2 million.  Make up your mind.

No I'm saying you are waffling off topic, trying to divert into the semantics of percentages relative to actual numbers...


It was claimed before that about 3% population are illegal immigrants while we know that it is 4.9% American citizens unemployed.


Remove illegal immigrants and clamp down on illegal workers... then American citizens will have more available jobs bringing unemployment down and improving their life qualities and that of their communities... plus saving in benefits payments while also bringing in tax dollars.

Tommy Monk wrote:No I'm saying you are waffling off topic, trying to divert into the semantics of percentages relative to actual numbers...

It was claimed before that about 3% population are illegal immigrants while we know that it is 4.9% American citizens unemployed.

I cannot affirm those numbers as to the percentage of undocumented people.  The only figure I have see is the whole number of 11.2 individuals.  Have you got a source?

Tommy Monk wrote:Remove illegal immigrants and clamp down on illegal workers... then American citizens will have more available jobs bringing unemployment down and improving their life qualities and that of their communities... plus saving in benefits payments while also bringing in tax dollars.

I repeat, unemployment is not the problem irrespective of the immigrants.  At under 5%, our unemployment picture is a total success story.  Perhaps you should make a case as to why unemployment--as low as it is--is such a huge concern for you.  Because I suspect you don't care a wit about the unemployed except insofar as they give you a victim for your argument.

In any case, given the relative value of each, the concern for mass deportation of friends and neighbors, even if undocumented, is greater than the concern for a negligible unemployment figure.  Unemployment being a relative success today, it's time to turn our attention to getting a path to citizenship for the undocumented.  Prior citizenship is not some new aristocracy.

Unemployment might not be a 'problem' to you... but it will be a big problem to the millions of unemployed who desperately want work!


And the figures 11 million and 3% were the ones given by you and others on this thread!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Unemployment might not be a 'problem' to you... but it will be a big problem to the millions of unemployed who desperately want work!

But, there may be bigger problems. It's always relative.

Tommy Monk wrote:And the figures 11 million and 3% were the ones given by you and others on this thread!

I've used the 11.2 million figure for undocumented people. I don't remember the 3% figure representing their percentage of the workforce. Could you show me where, because I don't recall seeing it?

JUST TO PROVE how totally stupid and self-delusional poor little old Tommykins actually is...

The silly little fucktard doesn't even distinguish between the total population and the size of the potential  workforce (which will be less than 60% of the total population when those too young, too old, retired, non-working/"stay-at-home" spouses, students, seriously disabled, voluntarily 'between jobs', or simply unable to find work for other reasons(i.e. the "structurally" unemployed..) are subtracted from the total population).

NOTE with some of Tommy's wonky calculations, it's because he's applying those unemployment figures to the total population --  rather than the actual available working age sub-group..

YET ANOTHER good reason to dismiss Tommy as,the useless and clueless piece of fascist shite that he is...        

I didn't put a figure on it... just posted the govt given percentage...


The other figures were supplied by Quill and Ben...



Just goes to show again that wolfboy is a complete twat who doesn't know what he is talking about!!!


And he only drops in to launch personal attacks on me for no reason!!!