Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access?

European Union leaders met for the first time without Britain on Wednesday less than a week after it voted to leave, delivering a tough message that London can access the bloc's lucrative single market only if it agrees to allow free movement for EU workers.

Last week's shock referendum vote to leave the EU has caused global financial market turmoil, sent the pound sterling tumbling and wiped billions off the value of British shares. Britain's giant financial services sector, roughly 8 percent of economy, relies crucially on access to the EU market.

Prime Minister David Cameron, who campaigned to stay in the EU and lost, has announced his resignation and left it up to his successor to negotiate the terms of Britain's exit.

But leaders of the victorious Leave campaign have not spelled out in detail what sort of relationship they hope to build with Brussels, creating uncertainty about the future for both Britain and the rest of the bloc.

Cameron, staying on as caretaker until a successor is found, told EU leaders at his final summit with them on Tuesday that he believed the referendum was lost over the principle of unrestricted travel among EU citizens.

But free movement of workers is one of "four freedoms" -- along with movement of capital, goods and services -- that the EU says must be maintained by any country that wants access to its common market. The 27 leaders added a line to their summit statement at the last minute emphasizing that principle.

Lord Foul wrote:yeah...but every time "we" try to suggest something should be done about it...like stop em having access to our benefits/free heath care, people like YOU start crying that we is being wacist

Lord Foul wrote:yeah...but every time "we" try to suggest something should be done about it...like stop em having access to our benefits/free heath care, people like YOU start crying that we is being wacist

Tommy Monk wrote:Nationality... not race...

Major wrote:Recently in Coventry there has been an influx of jet black Somalians who are not working and have loads of little kids.

Tommy Monk wrote:

We don't have the burden of an influx of them...

Ben Reilly wrote:Or would that make Brexit pointless in your view?

European Union leaders met for the first time without Britain on Wednesday less than a week after it voted to leave, delivering a tough message that London can access the bloc's lucrative single market only if it agrees to allow free movement for EU workers.

Last week's shock referendum vote to leave the EU has caused global financial market turmoil, sent the pound sterling tumbling and wiped billions off the value of British shares. Britain's giant financial services sector, roughly 8 percent of economy, relies crucially on access to the EU market.

Prime Minister David Cameron, who campaigned to stay in the EU and lost, has announced his resignation and left it up to his successor to negotiate the terms of Britain's exit.

But leaders of the victorious Leave campaign have not spelled out in detail what sort of relationship they hope to build with Brussels, creating uncertainty about the future for both Britain and the rest of the bloc.

Cameron, staying on as caretaker until a successor is found, told EU leaders at his final summit with them on Tuesday that he believed the referendum was lost over the principle of unrestricted travel among EU citizens.

But free movement of workers is one of "four freedoms" -- along with movement of capital, goods and services -- that the EU says must be maintained by any country that wants access to its common market. The 27 leaders added a line to their summit statement at the last minute emphasizing that principle.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-wrapup-idUSKCN0ZF29S

Ben Reilly wrote:OK, another related question:

Do you think the corporate big-wigs who want cheaper EU labor and don't want to deal with the inevitable tangle of red tape that dealing with each of the 27 countries individually will be pushing to concede free movement to get access to the single market?

Tommy Monk wrote:If they want cheap eu labour then what's stopping them setting up some businesses in cheaper eu 'states' and employing them there...?


It's all the eu isnt it...?


All the same rules etc...


All these 'highly skilled and hard working' cheap eu labour are already there...

Syl wrote:I know some firms advertise abroad instead of here when they need cheap labour.
Butlins and Costa coffee bars have both been in the news for that. High unemployment locally....but they prefer cheap labour from abroad.

Ben Reilly wrote:So all that whining about the Polish coming in and taking jobs because they'd accept lower pay was horseshit?

Tommy Monk wrote:No... the waffle from people like you that it is only Polish coming in and taking jobs for cheaper is the bullshit...


It is pushing down skilled workers rates down to min wage level... while the extra demand on housing is pushing up costs of living...

Syl wrote:My son is a scaffolder. A few years ago when there was an influx of Polish workers, he was made redundant twice in the space of a couple of years.
The firms closed, got rid of the highly trained Brit workforce, and reopened under  different names with a full polish workforce. The companies organised overpriced housing (4 to a room) and overpriced transport to ferry them back and forth..

The polish workers were happy...they were earning more than at home and they had few overheads.
The immoral companies were happy because they were screwing everyone.
The Brits were out of work.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:That was reply to Ben...


But Syl... firms can get eu handout of about £1000 for employing a non british eu worker... and the worker can get a handout of nearly £1000 from eu too for 'resettlement' costs...

So you're saying, besides being able to access one market that touches most of Europe for their goods and services, UK companies also benefit financially for hiring EU workers.

You don't think they're going to fight to keep that in place?

Tommy Monk wrote:So you support the British people against corporate interests that screw the British people...?

veya_victaous wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:So all that whining about the Polish coming in and taking jobs because they'd accept lower pay was horseshit?

no it's true

my brother went over on a year visa and ended up coming back after a few months becuase there wasn't any work anything there was had people saying they'd work below the minimum wage.

The problem with this train of discussion is it assume manufacturing has gone to the EU, most of it hasn't it has gone to Asia where the wage is cheaper. It's Service jobs are getting taken by EU citizens willing to work below the British minimum.

veya_victaous wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:The British people are the new boss...

no they are not

they have been demoted they have less negoation power than ever
you have to pick the new boss
EU lite (same thing different name)
the USA
or Russia

China thinks you a bunch of hillshepherds after meeting that scrounger, the queen.
they are touchy and you lot are insulting

Irn Bru wrote:And they're off and I have to say that the Tory list of Candiates have a distictly Scottish flavour about it. We have three Scots and also Theresa May looking splendid in her full outfit adorned with the tartan of the Black Watch Scottish regiment. What a fine lass she is.

Anyway Michael Gove blew away Boris in act of deceipt never seen matched in any party that I can remember and in doing so he blew away his own chances as well. Theresa May is almost a racing certainty and I hope she wins because I quite like and admire her as a hard working politician who really was hemmed in with Osborne's draconian cuts.

Raggamuffin wrote:Perhaps a law could be passed whereby Brits are given priority when it comes to employment. That seems to work for Australia and New Zealand. At least, that was the case in New Zealand when I was there - it might have changed since then.

Syl wrote:We need to bring back  apprenticeships and proper training for certain professions, money should be given not taken away.
It's ridiculous that we have to advertise and recruit from abroad hundreds of nurses for eg.
We used to highly train our own....then many of them were made redundant when NHS budgets were slashed. The farce is many nurses now are supplied by agencies which cost double.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:
I guess I have to spell it out for you, Tommy -- I don't endorse companies doing things like that (you should know better), I'm asking whether Brits here think they won't try.

I think it could turn out to be a situation where the EU was geared toward enriching people, and the rich aren't going to tolerate a change to that. Basically, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Tommy is truly delusional if he thinks that he and his fellow fascist like-minded commoner anti-worker/anti-union chums will have any real influence over the new "Independent Britain's" industrial relations and labour hire practices, in 2 or 3 years time...

THE  USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia already have their infamous 'Visa 451' style temporary foreign labour hire regulations in place --  where businesses can arrange to bring in certain numbers of (cut rate) foreign workers, under modified conditions, to fill jobs where the employer can claim (even when telling porkies..) that they can't find workers locally.  There is one NYC law firm that supposedly only deals in helping corporations exploit and manipulate these "temporary guest labour" rules..

THEN there are the "backpacker workers" and "foreign students" rules that allow employers to utilise these groups for short term and casual contracts.

NO DOUBT the British business associations and corporations will be looking to have similar provisions put in place over there, to replace those EU provisions that currently apply to their foreign member workforces ?        

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:
And they're off and I have to say that the Tory list of Candiates have a distictly Scottish flavour about it. We have three Scots and also Theresa May looking splendid in her full outfit adorned with the tartan of the Black Watch Scottish regiment. What a fine lass she is.

Anyway Michael Gove blew away Boris in act of deceipt never seen matched in any party that I can remember and in doing so he blew away his own chances as well. Theresa May is almost a racing certainty and I hope she wins because I quite like and admire her as a hard working politician who really was hemmed in with Osborne's draconian cuts.

SEEMS the US and Aussie media has Theresa May as the front runner, as well, by tonight's news over here...          

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

no it's true

my brother went over on a year visa and ended up coming back after a few months becuase there wasn't any work anything there was had people saying they'd work below the minimum wage.

The problem with this train of discussion is it assume manufacturing has gone to the EU, most of it hasn't it has gone to Asia where the wage is cheaper. It's Service jobs are getting taken by EU citizens willing to work below the British minimum.

Lower wage & conditions factories have also been set up in Eastern Europe, Russia, parts of southern and central Africa, and certain Pacic Island nations (like Fiji and Samoa..).    

AND the USA have been using Mexico, Brazil, and neighbouring countries, for the same purpose for decades..     

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:My day rate as a skilled workers is the same now as it was 12 years ago... while it now costs me 2 weeks money to rent a one bed flat for a month... where previously 12 years ago it cost me one weeks money.

Then vote LW.  The rightys only want cheap labour...lots and lots of full employment at depressed wages.

Conservatives are for special interests...and you couldn't afford it.

Syl wrote:Well all the above just show how badly the country has been run down.
If the government let people in (free movement) they should have the facilitiies to look after them...they obviously dont, though they often do get preference over people bred and born here..


Obesity and diabetes are often self inflicted.....the only answer to that is education.

The NHS is facing such a chronic shortage of British nurses that one in four had to be recruited from abroad last year, new figures from the Nursing and Midwifery Council reveal. The shortfall follows cuts in the numbers of training places in each year under the coalition government. As a result, fewer “home-grown” nurses are coming through the system.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/04/nhs-recruits-one-in-four-nurses-from-abroad

The push to create apprenticeships fast has devalued their brand, with low level skills such as coffee-making being accredited, Ofsted has said.
Ofsted chief Sir Michael Wilshaw says some learners are not even aware they are on apprenticeship schemes.
Apprenticeships, which ministers in England say are key to tackling unemployment, are sometimes covering workers' pre-existing skills, he says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34549989

Lord Foul wrote:yeah...but every time "we" try to suggest something should be done about it...like stop em having access to our benefits/free heath care, people like YOU start crying that we is being wacist

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Nationality... not race...

Major wrote:Recently in Coventry there has been an influx of jet black Somalians who are not working and have loads of little kids.

Nationality is race in most of these discussions.  You don't see people fretting about "jet back Canadians" do you?

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

We don't have the burden of an influx of them...

So you would welcome any "jet black Somalians"?

sassy wrote:Then you are out of luck, because they have said unequivocally that there will be no trade without free movement, full stop, finito.

sassy wrote:Then you are out of luck, because they have said unequivocally that there will be no trade without free movement, full stop, finito.

sassy wrote:Utter bollocks.  From last year:

The NHS is facing such a chronic shortage of British nurses that one in four had to be recruited from abroad last year, new figures from the Nursing and Midwifery Council reveal. The shortfall follows cuts in the numbers of training places in each year under the coalition government. As a result, fewer “home-grown” nurses are coming through the system.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/04/nhs-recruits-one-in-four-nurses-from-abroad

Then they stopped bursaries and said prospective nurses had to take out a loan.

As for apprenticeships, the numbers have risen, but the fact many of them are utterly useless makes them worthless:

The push to create apprenticeships fast has devalued their brand, with low level skills such as coffee-making being accredited, Ofsted has said.
Ofsted chief Sir Michael Wilshaw says some learners are not even aware they are on apprenticeship schemes.
Apprenticeships, which ministers in England say are key to tackling unemployment, are sometimes covering workers' pre-existing skills, he says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34549989

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Syl wrote:I know some firms advertise abroad instead of here when they need cheap labour.
Butlins and Costa coffee bars have both been in the news for that. High unemployment locally....but they prefer cheap labour from abroad.

the labour from abroad is no cheaper than the labour here, the sad fact is many in the UK seem to imagine they can all start as CEO's rather than at the bottom of the pile.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

sassy wrote:Utter bollocks.  From last year:






Then they stopped bursaries and said prospective nurses had to take out a loan.

As for apprenticeships, the numbers have risen, but the fact many of them are utterly useless makes them worthless:

yes sadly nursing is no longer seen as a vocation by the british. that and the fact that the NHS is so politicised by the unions makes it far harder to do the job. Qualified overseas nurses will always be welcome. The key word being qualifies.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Then vote LW.  The rightys only want cheap labour...lots and lots of full employment at depressed wages.

Conservatives are for special interests...and you couldn't afford it.

it was the left wing blair years that drove wages down. My wages did not rise between 2004 and 2010

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Syl wrote:We need to bring back  apprenticeships and proper training for certain professions, money should be given not taken away.
It's ridiculous that we have to advertise and recruit from abroad hundreds of nurses for eg.
We used to highly train our own....then many of them were made redundant when NHS budgets were slashed. The farce is many nurses now are supplied by agencies which cost double.

the tories have been doing that

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Syl wrote:I know some firms advertise abroad instead of here when they need cheap labour.
Butlins and Costa coffee bars have both been in the news for that. High unemployment locally....but they prefer cheap labour from abroad.

the labour from abroad is no cheaper than the labour here, the sad fact is many in the UK seem to imagine they can all start as CEO's rather than at the bottom of the pile.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

So you would welcome any "jet black Somalians"?

if they have job skills we need, anyone is welcome.
I am not sure piracy and gun running are required skills in the UK at the moment.

Syl wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
the tories have been doing that

I tend not to believe what the Tories say they do.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Syl wrote:

I tend not to believe what the Tories say they do.

Well you can't believe the labour liars... double speak... doing the opposite of what they say...

Tommy Monk wrote:

You need to check things out yourself to see what's what...


That's what I do...

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

You need to check things out yourself to see what's what...


That's what I do...

I do try to that that....but as the media reports what they want to and puts appropriate slants on what they actually do report, sometimes we just have to go with gut feeling too.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Syl wrote:

I do try to that that....but as the media reports what they want to and puts appropriate slants on what they actually do report, sometimes we just have to go with gut feeling too.

I've worked for the media for 20 years now. Is that really what you think we do?