Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access?

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:12 pm

Or would that make Brexit pointless in your view?

European Union leaders met for the first time without Britain on Wednesday less than a week after it voted to leave, delivering a tough message that London can access the bloc's lucrative single market only if it agrees to allow free movement for EU workers.

Last week's shock referendum vote to leave the EU has caused global financial market turmoil, sent the pound sterling tumbling and wiped billions off the value of British shares. Britain's giant financial services sector, roughly 8 percent of economy, relies crucially on access to the EU market.

Prime Minister David Cameron, who campaigned to stay in the EU and lost, has announced his resignation and left it up to his successor to negotiate the terms of Britain's exit.

But leaders of the victorious Leave campaign have not spelled out in detail what sort of relationship they hope to build with Brussels, creating uncertainty about the future for both Britain and the rest of the bloc.

Cameron, staying on as caretaker until a successor is found, told EU leaders at his final summit with them on Tuesday that he believed the referendum was lost over the principle of unrestricted travel among EU citizens.

But free movement of workers is one of "four freedoms" -- along with movement of capital, goods and services -- that the EU says must be maintained by any country that wants access to its common market. The 27 leaders added a line to their summit statement at the last minute emphasizing that principle.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-wrapup-idUSKCN0ZF29S

by Major Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:40 pm

NO NO NO.

by Victorismyhero Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:03 pm

meh...there are bigger fish to fry

AND......freedom of movement DOES NOT imply access to our rates of social provision, merely the right to come here
so...no more comming here mr (whatever) leaving your missuss and kids behind then sending our child benefit back home where its probably more than the average weekly wage....

yep come here, work for minimum wage if you want...but NO taxcredits/no JSA above the rate you would get at home, if you are out of work AND you can pay for your medical bills....

NO translators for free (except in court)

AND expect immediate deportation the INSTANT you are convicted of a crime above a certain level or you prove to be a recedivist

and just to be sure if you are non eu origin with one of those dodgy "EU" pass ports the above will also apply

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:14 pm

I think a lot of people voted out because of the free movement rule.
To agree to continue it indefinately would be wrong imo....it just does not work to our advantage.
There is also the argument that allowing free movement to EU countries takes a lot of opportunities away from would be immigrants from outside the EU.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:41 pm

We voted to regain control over our country and democracy and right to self govt...

Regaining controls and powers that were stolen from us as we never agreed to them being given away in the first place!

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:51 pm

OK, another related question:

Do you think the corporate big-wigs who want cheaper EU labor and don't want to deal with the inevitable tangle of red tape that dealing with each of the 27 countries individually will be pushing to concede free movement to get access to the single market?

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:56 pm

There is a minimum wage here. Millions of workers are paid the low amount.
Cheap EU labour cant be paid less within the law.

by Victorismyhero Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:02 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:OK, another related question:

Do you think the corporate big-wigs who want cheaper EU labor and don't want to deal with the inevitable tangle of red tape that dealing with each of the 27 countries individually will be pushing to concede free movement to get access to the single market?

I dont quite undersatnd what you are getting at here

do you mean in companies HERE ?

because labour here is (or should be) at its lowest pay level at "minimum wage" anyway
so if they have "cheap E.U labour they must already be in one of the low wage EU economies

confused.com

by eddie Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:07 pm

I didn't understand it either and was about to ask him for a comma or something so I could break it down. Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 3489511464

Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 3489511464

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:13 pm

If they want cheap eu labour then what's stopping them setting up some businesses in cheaper eu 'states' and employing them there...?

It's all the eu isnt it...?

All the same rules etc...

All these 'highly skilled and hard working' cheap eu labour are already there...

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:21 pm

I know some firms advertise abroad instead of here when they need cheap labour.
Butlins and Costa coffee bars have both been in the news for that. High unemployment locally....but they prefer cheap labour from abroad.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:24 pm

Syl... although often denied it happens... and supposed to be illegal...

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:25 pm

So all that whining about the Polish coming in and taking jobs because they'd accept lower pay was horseshit?

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Syl... although often denied it happens... and supposed to be illegal...

It happens all right.

Even if minimum wage is paid (and that's debatable) I know from personal experience that a company can advertise and recruit from abroad, organise housing and transport for the applicants, and even if the correct wage is being paid they charge over the odds....thus lining their pockets benefiting more than if they employed locals where housing and transport would not be needed.
It happened in the building trade a lot...also in catering.

by eddie Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:29 pm

I think I read that there were about 850,000 poles working here.
They're good workers that's why people employ them.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:35 pm

No... the waffle from people like you that it is only Polish coming in and taking jobs for cheaper is the bullshit...

It is pushing down skilled workers rates down to min wage level... while the extra demand on housing is pushing up costs of living...

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:37 pm

That was reply to Ben...

But Syl... firms can get eu handout of about £1000 for employing a non british eu worker... and the worker can get a handout of nearly £1000 from eu too for 'resettlement' costs...

by Syl Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:42 pm

My son is a scaffolder. A few years ago when there was an influx of Polish workers, he was made redundant twice in the space of a couple of years.
The firms closed, got rid of the highly trained Brit workforce, and reopened under different names with a full polish workforce. The companies organised overpriced housing (4 to a room) and overpriced transport to ferry them back and forth..

The polish workers were happy...they were earning more than at home and they had few overheads.
The immoral companies were happy because they were screwing everyone.
The Brits were out of work.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:That was reply to Ben...

But Syl... firms can get eu handout of about £1000 for employing a non british eu worker... and the worker can get a handout of nearly £1000 from eu too for 'resettlement' costs...

So you're saying, besides being able to access one market that touches most of Europe for their goods and services, UK companies also benefit financially for hiring EU workers.

You don't think they're going to fight to keep that in place?

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:48 pm

The British people are in charge... not the relatively few who are getting richer by screwing us...

Funny how you suddenly seem to be supporting corporate interests screwing the decent hard working majority...!?

lol!

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The British people are in charge... not the relatively few who are getting richer by screwing us...

Funny how you suddenly seem to be supporting corporate interests screwing the decent hard working majority...!?

How is my asking whether you expect them to do these things in any way my endorsement of them doing these things?

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:03 pm

So you support the British people against corporate interests that screw the British people...?

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:37 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

The British people are in charge... not the relatively few who are getting richer by screwing us...

Funny how you suddenly seem to be supporting corporate interests screwing the decent hard working majority...!?

How is my asking whether you expect them to do these things in any way my endorsement of them doing these things?

Well... ?

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:40 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

The British people are in charge... not the relatively few who are getting richer by screwing us...

Funny how you suddenly seem to be supporting corporate interests screwing the decent hard working majority...!?

How is my asking whether you expect them to do these things in any way my endorsement of them doing these things?

Well... ?

I guess I have to spell it out for you, Tommy -- I don't endorse companies doing things like that (you should know better), I'm asking whether Brits here think they won't try.

I think it could turn out to be a situation where the EU was geared toward enriching people, and the rich aren't going to tolerate a change to that. Basically, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:51 pm

The British people are the new boss...

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The British people are the new boss...

The British people include the British rich people, and the rich always seem to have more influence than you'd expect, don't they?

by eddie Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:55 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The British people are the new boss...

That sounds arrogant.

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:01 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:So all that whining about the Polish coming in and taking jobs because they'd accept lower pay was horseshit?

no it's true

my brother went over on a year visa and ended up coming back after a few months becuase there wasn't any work anything there was had people saying they'd work below the minimum wage.

The problem with this train of discussion is it assume manufacturing has gone to the EU, most of it hasn't it has gone to Asia where the wage is cheaper. It's Service jobs are getting taken by EU citizens willing to work below the British minimum.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:02 pm

No eddie... a recovering of democracy is right... the arrogance is from those who tried to give/steal it away without our permission...

The definition of democracy is that the people are the boss!!!

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The British people are the new boss...

no they are not

they have been demoted they have less negoation power than ever
you have to pick the new boss
EU lite (same thing different name)
the USA
or Russia

China thinks you a bunch of hillshepherds after meeting that scrounger, the queen. queen

they are touchy and you lot are insulting

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:09 pm

Think you need to learn the definition of democracy...

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Think you need to learn the definition of democracy...

A tool to allow leaders to convince the masses they asked for it Rolling Eyes

by veya_victaous Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:31 am

by Irn Bru Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:51 am

And they're off and I have to say that the Tory list of Candiates have a distictly Scottish flavour about it. We have three Scots and also Theresa May looking splendid in her full outfit adorned with the tartan of the Black Watch Scottish regiment. What a fine lass she is.

Anyway Michael Gove blew away Boris in act of deceipt never seen matched in any party that I can remember and in doing so he blew away his own chances as well. Theresa May is almost a racing certainty and I hope she wins because I quite like and admire her as a hard working politician who really was hemmed in with Osborne's draconian cuts.

by veya_victaous Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:35 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Think you need to learn the definition of democracy...

A tool to allow leaders to convince the masses they asked for it

Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? VfIfggY

by Raggamuffin Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:01 am

Perhaps a law could be passed whereby Brits are given priority when it comes to employment. That seems to work for Australia and New Zealand. At least, that was the case in New Zealand when I was there - it might have changed since then.

by Syl Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:22 pm

We need to bring back apprenticeships and proper training for certain professions, money should be given not taken away.
It's ridiculous that we have to advertise and recruit from abroad hundreds of nurses for eg.
We used to highly train our own....then many of them were made redundant when NHS budgets were slashed. The farce is many nurses now are supplied by agencies which cost double.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:58 pm

NHS budgets have gone up.

The problem with nurses is that they need a degree now when previously they didn't.

But you are right on the extra drain on NHS resources by hiring agency staff... plus the costs of PFI...

by 'Wolfie Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:28 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Well... ?

I guess I have to spell it out for you, Tommy -- I don't endorse companies doing things like that (you should know better), I'm asking whether Brits here think they won't try.

I think it could turn out to be a situation where the EU was geared toward enriching people, and the rich aren't going to tolerate a change to that. Basically, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Tommy is truly delusional if he thinks that he and his fellow fascist like-minded commoner anti-worker/anti-union chums will have any real influence over the new "Independent Britain's" industrial relations and labour hire practices, in 2 or 3 years time...

THE USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia already have their infamous 'Visa 451' style temporary foreign labour hire regulations in place -- where businesses can arrange to bring in certain numbers of (cut rate) foreign workers, under modified conditions, to fill jobs where the employer can claim (even when telling porkies..) that they can't find workers locally. There is one NYC law firm that supposedly only deals in helping corporations exploit and manipulate these "temporary guest labour" rules..

THEN there are the "backpacker workers" and "foreign students" rules that allow employers to utilise these groups for short term and casual contracts.

NO DOUBT the British business associations and corporations will be looking to have similar provisions put in place over there, to replace those EU provisions that currently apply to their foreign member workforces ? Suspect

by 'Wolfie Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:37 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
And they're off and I have to say that the Tory list of Candiates have a distictly Scottish flavour about it. We have three Scots and also Theresa May looking splendid in her full outfit adorned with the tartan of the Black Watch Scottish regiment. What a fine lass she is.

Anyway Michael Gove blew away Boris in act of deceipt never seen matched in any party that I can remember and in doing so he blew away his own chances as well. Theresa May is almost a racing certainty and I hope she wins because I quite like and admire her as a hard working politician who really was hemmed in with Osborne's draconian cuts.

Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 2108625937

SEEMS the US and Aussie media has Theresa May as the front runner, as well, by tonight's news over here... Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 2187004795

Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 2187004795

by 'Wolfie Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:47 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:So all that whining about the Polish coming in and taking jobs because they'd accept lower pay was horseshit?

no it's true

my brother went over on a year visa and ended up coming back after a few months becuase there wasn't any work anything there was had people saying they'd work below the minimum wage.

The problem with this train of discussion is it assume manufacturing has gone to the EU, most of it hasn't it has gone to Asia where the wage is cheaper. It's Service jobs are getting taken by EU citizens willing to work below the British minimum.

Lower wage & conditions factories have also been set up in Eastern Europe, Russia, parts of southern and central Africa, and certain Pacic Island nations (like Fiji and Samoa..).

AND the USA have been using Mexico, Brazil, and neighbouring countries, for the same purpose for decades.. Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 3893789544

Brexiters: Would you give up on free movement in exchange for single-market EU access? 3893789544

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:03 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
I guess I have to spell it out for you, Tommy -- I don't endorse companies doing things like that (you should know better), I'm asking whether Brits here think they won't try.

I think it could turn out to be a situation where the EU was geared toward enriching people, and the rich aren't going to tolerate a change to that. Basically, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Tommy is truly delusional if he thinks that he and his fellow fascist like-minded commoner anti-worker/anti-union chums will have any real influence over the new "Independent Britain's" industrial relations and labour hire practices, in 2 or 3 years time...

THE USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia already have their infamous 'Visa 451' style temporary foreign labour hire regulations in place -- where businesses can arrange to bring in certain numbers of (cut rate) foreign workers, under modified conditions, to fill jobs where the employer can claim (even when telling porkies..) that they can't find workers locally. There is one NYC law firm that supposedly only deals in helping corporations exploit and manipulate these "temporary guest labour" rules..

THEN there are the "backpacker workers" and "foreign students" rules that allow employers to utilise these groups for short term and casual contracts.

NO DOUBT the British business associations and corporations will be looking to have similar provisions put in place over there, to replace those EU provisions that currently apply to their foreign member workforces ?

I'm pro worker!!!

Pro British jobs for British workers and an end to mass immigration which is driving up costs of living while at the same time driving down wages.

My day rate as a skilled workers is the same now as it was 12 years ago... while it now costs me 2 weeks money to rent a one bed flat for a month... where previously 12 years ago it cost me one weeks money.

by Original Quill Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:My day rate as a skilled workers is the same now as it was 12 years ago... while it now costs me 2 weeks money to rent a one bed flat for a month... where previously 12 years ago it cost me one weeks money.

Then vote LW. The rightys only want cheap labour...lots and lots of full employment at depressed wages.

Conservatives are for special interests...and you couldn't afford it.

by Syl Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:53 pm

[quote="Tommy Monk"]NHS budgets have gone up.

The problem with nurses is that they need a degree now when previously they didn't.

But you are right on the extra drain on NHS resources by hiring agency staff... plus the costs of PFI...

[/quote]

How come so many hospitals are closing?
How come there is a distinct shortage of staff and beds in most hospitals (ask the people who work in them, not the politicians spin on it) How come what used to be a 2 day wait maximum to see a local GP is now a minimum 2 week wait in many areas?
How come it's nigh impossible to be enrolled as a new patient in a convenient dentist or GP surgery.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:11 pm

Mass immigration... health tourism....PFI costs... increase in cosmetic practices and fatty care... diabetes.. etc...

And as you said... hiring agency staff is hugely expensive...

by Syl Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:16 pm

Well all the above just show how badly the country has been run down.
If the government let people in (free movement) they should have the facilitiies to look after them...they obviously dont, though they often do get preference over people bred and born here..

Obesity and diabetes are often self inflicted.....the only answer to that is education.

by Tommy Monk Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:21 pm

Eu free movement rules say that they have to have their own health care insurance and must not be an undue burden to another country.

Of course this aspect is ignored here by our govts...

And the foreigners from outside the eu are still flying in to use our NHS for free too!

by Syl Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:36 pm

Well hopefully when someone gets their bleeding act together and actually makes proper plans as to exactly whats going to happen and when, we can stop people using and abusing our NHS services.
How marvellous if the money saved could be spent looking after our older people who are left to rot, or our kids who die because they live in an area where the necessary equipment isn't available.

by Ben Reilly Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Eu free movement rules say that they have to have their own health care insurance and must not be an undue burden to another country.

Of course this aspect is ignored here by our govts...

And the foreigners from outside the eu are still flying in to use our NHS for free too!

That sounds more like a "you" problem than a "them" problem ...

by Victorismyhero Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:46 pm

yeah...but every time "we" try to suggest something should be done about it...like stop em having access to our benefits/free heath care, people like YOU start crying that we is being wacist Rolling Eyes

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