Why did God give us Free Will?

Is God a Taoist? I read the following when I was about fourteen, then a few rimes since.
See what you think.

http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html


If someone wants to C&P the whole thing please do.
It's really worth a read; a mortal and God have a conversation.

I started to read it, but my brain began to hurt ...

If God exists according to the beliefs, then nobody has free will ,if an all knowing diety and can see the future which does not have variable possibilities and the future is thus set in stone. So if such a deity existed, everything would be as a direct result from his creation, because as follows.
Tomorrow I have a choice of doing either A, B or C. The deity can see I choose C. Thus if the future is C, how then am I able to choose anything else, as already my mind will decide C because the future is set in stone, being part of a vast program mapping out every action we would do in life. Thus if I truly had free will or choice with this religious philosophy then I would be able to choose a different option, but to do that would prove this deity wrong and thus negate all existence. Hence why the belief in an all knowing deity would mean nobody has any free will, as everything and every tiny thing ,all people, animals, weather ect would all be planned well in advance, which also means the 3 Abrahamic faiths are based upon billions being created solely to act out a life. They would have no control over anything only to then have eternal suffering if designed to not believe or do wrongs.
You would have been better off without being created, so really, if this is what they believe, to be created dependent on how God has planned you as either sheep or cannon fodder, the later would and could  mean your creation is some poor game, where you suffer for eternity.
Seriously, if that is the deity, who would want to follow something so twisted, as like I say you would be better off not being created in the first place ?  

Thus this is another reason to show how to find fault in faith, based off religion through the defining characteristics of this deity.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I started to read it, but my brain began to hurt ...

I knew you'd say that   

PhilDidge wrote:If God exists according to the beliefs, then nobody has free will ,if an all knowing diety and can see the future which does not have variable possibilities and the future is thus set in stone. So if such a deity existed, everything would be as a direct result from his creation, because as follows.
Tomorrow I have a choice of doing either A, B or C. The deity can see I choose C. Thus if the future is C, how then am I able to choose anything else, as already my mind will decide C because the future is set in stone, being part of a vast program mapping out every action we would do in life. Thus if I truly had free will or choice with this religious philosophy then I would be able to choose a different option, but to do that would prove this deity wrong and thus negate all existence. Hence why the belief in an all knowing deity would mean nobody has any free will, as everything and every tiny thing ,all people, animals, weather ect would all be planned well in advance, which also means the 3 Abrahamic faiths are based upon billions being created solely to act out a life. They would have no control over anything only to then have eternal suffering if designed to not believe or do wrongs.
You would have been better off without being created, so really, if this is what they believe, to be created dependent on how God has planned you as either sheep or cannon fodder, the later would and could  mean your creation is some poor game, where you suffer for eternity.
Seriously, if that is the deity, who would want to follow something so twisted, as like I say you would be better off not being created in the first place ?  

Thus this is another reason to show how to find fault in faith, based off religion through the defining characteristics of this deity.

Erm you're just supposed to read it as though the "God" in question was just your maker, the only one?
Otherwise you're on a totally different topic lol and this won't get discussed.

eddie wrote:Is God a Taoist? I read the following when I was about fourteen, then a few rimes since.
See what you think.

http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html


If someone wants to C&P the whole thing please do.
It's really worth a read; a mortal and God have a conversation.

Ok I'm going to read that mini-epic tomorrow, cause it's bloody late now; but on free will and what it means for us and our judgment by God- it is entirely dependent on which 'God' or gods you believe in.

If you believe God gave us free will but doesn't judge us that is significantly less problematic than if you believe God gave us free will but intends to punish us forever if we get things 'wrong'. The latter opens up questions as to how God 'created' us in the first place; the former does not.

However I will read the dialogue tomorrow and comment accordingly   

eddie wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:If God exists according to the beliefs, then nobody has free will ,if an all knowing diety and can see the future which does not have variable possibilities and the future is thus set in stone. So if such a deity existed, everything would be as a direct result from his creation, because as follows.
Tomorrow I have a choice of doing either A, B or C. The deity can see I choose C. Thus if the future is C, how then am I able to choose anything else, as already my mind will decide C because the future is set in stone, being part of a vast program mapping out every action we would do in life. Thus if I truly had free will or choice with this religious philosophy then I would be able to choose a different option, but to do that would prove this deity wrong and thus negate all existence. Hence why the belief in an all knowing deity would mean nobody has any free will, as everything and every tiny thing ,all people, animals, weather ect would all be planned well in advance, which also means the 3 Abrahamic faiths are based upon billions being created solely to act out a life. They would have no control over anything only to then have eternal suffering if designed to not believe or do wrongs.
You would have been better off without being created, so really, if this is what they believe, to be created dependent on how God has planned you as either sheep or cannon fodder, the later would and could  mean your creation is some poor game, where you suffer for eternity.
Seriously, if that is the deity, who would want to follow something so twisted, as like I say you would be better off not being created in the first place ?  

Thus this is another reason to show how to find fault in faith, based off religion through the defining characteristics of this deity.

Erm you're just supposed to read it as though the "God" in question was just your maker, the only one?
Otherwise you're on a totally different topic lol and this won't get discussed.

How silly Eddie, if it goes on to be discussed it will be discussed, as I posted this on the other thread you came and posted there to tell me about this, so my view was to post this here based on an all knowing deity, there would be no free will. after you did that


I will read through this link and reply also tomorrow as is late

eddie wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:I started to read it, but my brain began to hurt ...

I knew you'd say that   

You know me! Anyway, I think if "getting tortured for all eternity" is a possible outcome of this whole shebang, it needs to be WAY less complicated than that.

Eilzel wrote:

eddie wrote:Is God a Taoist? I read the following when I was about fourteen, then a few rimes since.
See what you think.

http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html


If someone wants to C&P the whole thing please do.
It's really worth a read; a mortal and God have a conversation.

Ok I'm going to read that mini-epic tomorrow, cause it's bloody late now; but on free will and what it means for us and our judgment by God- it is entirely dependent on which 'God' or gods you believe in.

If you believe God gave us free will but doesn't judge us that is significantly less problematic than if you believe God gave us free will but intends to punish us forever if we get things 'wrong'. The latter opens up questions as to how God 'created' us in the first place; the former does not.

However I will read the dialogue tomorrow and comment accordingly   

Thanks you for including the other options  ::D:: ::D:: ::D::  Mine just need me to exist, there is no heaven or hell, we all re-enter the Dreaming. The Goal is enlightenment and how many times you have to enter this plane is irrelevant.

eddie wrote:Is God a Taoist? I read the following when I was about fourteen, then a few rimes since.
See what you think.

http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html


If someone wants to C&P the whole thing please do.
It's really worth a read; a mortal and God have a conversation.

Absolutely fascinating read! And very much in the style of Plato's Dialogues, which I love   

Some interesting points:

I loved this quote on sin, "it is not sinning in itself which is bad but only the suffering which it causes", I find this description of the problem of sin very appealing; and it fortunately rules out many of the nonsensical so called 'sins' given by many religions which really shouldn't be considered sins at all (I also figured this much sooner than the mortal in the story haha).

This is more intriguing though; Mortal: "I thought you could do anything!" God: "Only things which are logically possible"

This exchange is a very debilitating concession from God; and from my own atheistic pov confirms that if God can only act within the limitations of universal logic; then it could be argued that the 'process' by which things exist and happen, does not require 'God' at all...

Another great section at the end:

"...dispel all these morbid thoughts of "sin" and "free will" and "moral responsibility." At one stage of history, such notions were actually useful. I refer to the days when tyrants had unlimited power and nothing short of fears of hell could possibly restrain them. But mankind has grown up since then, and this gruesome way of thinking is no longer necessary."

Certainly something I agree on regarding the mainstream Abrahamic faiths. However in spite of what was a great read I am unmoved in my personal thoughts on the matter. The piece certainly allows for a more Deistic position on God and dispels the crap about 'sins' imposed by dogma and the like- but the fact is people are still wicked and that will always leave open the question of whether such people are punished or not and the concerns for people so mentally deranged they perhaps cannot exercise free will as the rest of us can.

for me as a believer when i accepted Jesus as saviour , his promise of eternal life and the forgiveness of my sins means my past present future sins.

The way i see this is that by the Grace of God and fact that he will remember my sins no more , whether i sin or not i no longer need to be sin conscious because no matter how many sins i comit i am forgiven .

free will is given in fairness , if we were not given free will we would say it isn't fair and we are being forced to believe . Free will gives us the choice .

if a soldier kills in war,is he forgiven?

nicko wrote:if a soldier kills in war,is he forgiven?

are you asking eddie ?

nicko wrote:if a soldier kills in war,is he forgiven?

By who?

by god [if there is one]

nicko wrote:by god  [if there is one]

Well as you know I'm with you in my resolute doubt there- however I'd imagine a good god would forgive- as a man fighting another man in war is not as unjust murder in cold blood. But really those questions get far more interesting answers of believers   

the older I get I can't stop thinking about it.

nicko wrote:the older I get I can't stop thinking about it.

All I can say from my own view Nicko, is that those who have had to endure warfare and conflict and seen death stare them in the face, to lose people you come to see as your family, to knowing that if you do not take a life, then you will end up not only dead but also the men with you if anyone falters from the task at hand. Truly this is most emotional hardships people have to endure, with so many things playing on their mind how the psychology of keeping it together even if inside, fear is raking through many involved that you have to suppress this to see the job get done. To have so much anger build at seeing your closets buddies die, is enough to send any sane person over the edge of which I think truly scars many for life, where I guess now you are plagued over the taking of life, or something that happened to how friends maybe died or the horror of the combat itself playing back in your mind. Somebody has to do this role, and I think many do not understand myself included and only guess at what affect combat does have on people for the rest of their lives, even where some would commit acts against that they would never even contemplate until faced with such pain and death.

At the end of the day the troops are fighting for their country and do their duty to their country and commandeering Chief when asked to go to war. People will always argue the right and wrong of conflicts, but many of those that do have never even seen combat and thus have little understanding how much it takes away from a person. So to me if there was a deity, how could he judge you for doing that? It is like Zack said on intent which is a very important point, as if you have gone with intent to do right, how can you be really wrong. People fight for nations that do not believe in their ideology, it should not make them guilty say for example some German soldiers who were against Nazism, but loved their country placing them in greater conflict, so they fought not for Nazism but the survival of Germany. Thus their intent was to protect, of those who wished to fulfill the ideology of Nazism, then the intent would be wrong.

So I guess it would be down to intent and being as you are quite just, though differ on some moral aspects to me, I fail to see how you can be blamed for what at the time seemed right. Sadly it does leave people to look back in hindsight and question though whether it was.
You should be proud as you know your family is of the service you gave for our nation, under as I say conditions many do not face or understand. I cannot stop you having conflict with yourself over the past, but I can say that I am trying to understand and realise how very difficult it was to grow through. So I can say myself I do not blame you or judge you for having to take someones life in combat, as you really do not have a choice when faced with the prospect of losing your own

nicko wrote:if a soldier kills in war,is he forgiven?

he is forgiven everything if he accepts Jesus...  

heavenly father wrote:

nicko wrote:if a soldier kills in war,is he forgiven?

he is forgiven everything if he accepts Jesus...  

Shows no logic in regards to a  loving deity, but a jealous unforgiving deity would thus not judge two people because they have both raped say, but is judging them on who believes him, which allows your concept of God to forgive all Christian believers all heinous crimes, but condemns others just for not believing he existed, so the harshest punishment is lack of belief, which is utterly absurd, as people can lead exemplary lives and then are still condemned on this one factor, which would not mean a loving deity at all.
His forgiveness is only conditional, based on being vain. It is unhinged lunacy to even contemplate a deity being like that as so intelligent to be so human like in emotions on the factor of belief, to the point where if heinous crimes are committed these get the conditional forgiveness for believing , yet again the one who leads an exemplary life would actually abide by the vast majority of the commands without knowing it and still be condemned over just belief. So rape pillage and genocide are lesser crimes to your god the far heinous crimes is lack of belief.

That is nothing more than attention seeker, who if people are not his friends turns vindictive and nasty towards them and makes them suffer badly, just because they do not associate with him

You would condemn a person for doing that, but for a mythical deity it is okay

the gospel is simple , accept Jesus and all your sins are forgiven, it is difficult to grasp when your an unbeliever .

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

he is forgiven everything if he accepts Jesus...  

Shows no logic in regards to a  loving deity, but a jealous unforgiving deity would thus not judge two people because they have both raped say, but is judging them on who believes him, which allows your concept of God to forgive all Christian believers all heinous crimes, but condemns others just for not believing he existed, so the harshest punishment is lack of belief, which is utterly absurd, as people can lead exemplary lives and then are still condemned on this one factor, which would not mean a loving deity at all.
His forgiveness is only conditional, based on being vain. It is unhinged lunacy to even contemplate a deity being like that as so intelligent to be so human like in emotions on the factor of belief, to the point where if heinous crimes are committed these get the conditional forgiveness for believing , yet again the one who leads an exemplary life would actually abide by the vast majority of the commands without knowing it and still be condemned over just belief. So rape pillage and genocide are lesser crimes to your god the far heinous crimes is lack of belief.

That is nothing more than attention seeker, who if people are not his friends turns vindictive and nasty towards them and makes them suffer badly, just because they do not associate with him

You would condemn a person for doing that, but for a mythical deity it is okay

how does complete forgiveness show as unloving...  

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Shows no logic in regards to a  loving deity, but a jealous unforgiving deity would thus not judge two people because they have both raped say, but is judging them on who believes him, which allows your concept of God to forgive all Christian believers all heinous crimes, but condemns others just for not believing he existed, so the harshest punishment is lack of belief, which is utterly absurd, as people can lead exemplary lives and then are still condemned on this one factor, which would not mean a loving deity at all.
His forgiveness is only conditional, based on being vain. It is unhinged lunacy to even contemplate a deity being like that as so intelligent to be so human like in emotions on the factor of belief, to the point where if heinous crimes are committed these get the conditional forgiveness for believing , yet again the one who leads an exemplary life would actually abide by the vast majority of the commands without knowing it and still be condemned over just belief. So rape pillage and genocide are lesser crimes to your god the far heinous crimes is lack of belief.

That is nothing more than attention seeker, who if people are not his friends turns vindictive and nasty towards them and makes them suffer badly, just because they do not associate with him

You would condemn a person for doing that, but for a mythical deity it is okay

how does complete forgiveness show as unloving...  

What did you not understand about conditional forgiveness?

Which is a sham anyway because everything is planned in advance, as if you have no free will being this is an all knowing deity, you would even have the choice to believe in him, being as the future is set in stone. This thus negates any reason for the need to forgive anyone, as God created them to act according to his plan.
Which means he programs some people to believe and then makes them feel like they are going to be forgiven for things they had no control over

Hence the logic of an all knowing deity is absurd and that predestination conflicts with free will and you cannot have only choice to choose to believe him either, because again the future is set already knowing the choice has been made before you do.

That is not a loving God, because many of his creations sole purpose is to suffer eternity, thus creation claimed to be a gift would not be a gift at all for two reasons, one to be created to suffer is not a gift, and if you do not accept the gift then it ceases to be a gift

back in a bit

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

how does complete forgiveness show as unloving...  

What did you not understand about conditional forgiveness?

Which is a sham anyway because everything is planned in advance, as if you have no free will being this is an all knowing deity, you would even have the choice to believe in him, being as the future is set in stone. This thus negates any reason for the need to forgive anyone, as God created them to act according to his plan.
Which means he programs some people to believe and then makes them feel like they are going to be forgiven for things they had no control over

Hence the logic of an all knowing deity is absurd and that predestination conflicts with free will and you cannot have only choice to choose to believe him either, because again the future is set already knowing the choice has been made before you do.

That is not a loving God, because many of his creations sole purpose is to suffer eternity, thus creation claimed to be a gift would not be a gift at all for two reasons, one to be created to suffer is not a gift, and if you do not accept the gift then it ceases to be a gift

back in a bit  

if you do not you do not accept God you don't want to be with him, is that simple enough, if you do not accept God you will not spend eternity with him, it is your choice, what is conditional about that...   

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


What did you not understand about conditional forgiveness?

Which is a sham anyway because everything is planned in advance, as if you have no free will being this is an all knowing deity, you would even have the choice to believe in him, being as the future is set in stone. This thus negates any reason for the need to forgive anyone, as God created them to act according to his plan.
Which means he programs some people to believe and then makes them feel like they are going to be forgiven for things they had no control over

Hence the logic of an all knowing deity is absurd and that predestination conflicts with free will and you cannot have only choice to choose to believe him either, because again the future is set already knowing the choice has been made before you do.

That is not a loving God, because many of his creations sole purpose is to suffer eternity, thus creation claimed to be a gift would not be a gift at all for two reasons, one to be created to suffer is not a gift, and if you do not accept the gift then it ceases to be a gift

back in a bit  

if you do not you do not accept God you don't want to be with him, is that simple enough, if you do not accept God you will not spend eternity with him, it is your choice, what is conditional about that...   

Its not a case of anyone wanting to or not as this has been decided already set in stone in the future, so the all knowing deity created you to think you have a choice when you do not any choice.

Again to believe either in him or not means that is a condition to forgiveness, one you get forgiven for belief over the other you do not, that means conditional

Blimey you make me laugh how you ignore common sense

Back later

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

if you do not you do not accept God you don't want to be with him, is that simple enough, if you do not accept God you will not spend eternity with him, it is your choice, what is conditional about that...   

Its not a case of anyone wanting to or not as this has been decided already set in stone in the future, so the all knowing deity created you to think you have a choice when you do not any choice.

Again to believe either in him or not means that is a condition to forgiveness, one you get forgiven over the other you do, that means conditional

Blimey you make me laugh how you ignore common sense

Back later  

lol..it is not set in stone, he knows the decisions you will make but they are yours to make...

chosing to bel;ieve in God is not a condition it is a choice...  

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Its not a case of anyone wanting to or not as this has been decided already set in stone in the future, so the all knowing deity created you to think you have a choice when you do not any choice.

Again to believe either in him or not means that is a condition to forgiveness, one you get forgiven over the other you do, that means conditional

Blimey you make me laugh how you ignore common sense

Back later  

lol..it is not set in stone, he knows the decisions you will make but they are yours to make...

chosing to bel;ieve in God is not a condition it is a choice...  

 ://?roflmao?/: 

Ha Ha Ha ha that is so stupid it is beyond belief and not even logical, think about it then you will see why.

If he knows the decisions I am going to make, that means they were predetermined and thus I have no choice over them from the start

DOH

PhilDidge wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

lol..it is not set in stone, he knows the decisions you will make but they are yours to make...

chosing to bel;ieve in God is not a condition it is a choice...  

 ://?roflmao?/: 

Ha Ha Ha ha that is so stupid it is beyond belief and not even logical, think about it then you will see why.

If he knows the decisions I am going to make, that means they were predetermined and thus I have no choice over them from the start

DOH

    

I knew you were going to say that, does that mean you had to write it or you chocse too... :/pwn://: 

heavenly father wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:

 ://?roflmao?/: 

Ha Ha Ha ha that is so stupid it is beyond belief and not even logical, think about it then you will see why.

If he knows the decisions I am going to make, that means they were predetermined and thus I have no choice over them from the start

DOH

    

I knew you were going to say that, does that mean you had to write it or you chocse too... :/pwn://: 

 ://?roflmao?/: 


That has made my day how utterly absurd a person you are and so illogical also.
All you did was guess I might write it and was right in your guess, are you now saying God is only guessing and just gets it right all the time?

 ://?roflmao?/: 

Seriously you dig yourself deeper every daft post you write. If he is all knowing that is different from having a need to guess like you did


DOH

So has anyone else actually read eddies link? It is very interesting   

[quote="Eilzel"]So has anyone else actually read eddies link? It is very interesting   [/quote


Sorry Eilzel   

Not yet, got wrapped up on other questions asked, though will try later, or tomorrow

See ya

nicko wrote:the older I get I can't stop thinking about it.

Nicko, dont worry about it. Its only a concern if you believe in that frightful monstrosity that is the "abrahamic god"

and even then there is a far more mainstream "christian" view point than that promulgated by that oaf HF. that is that if YOU truely believe that what you did was righteous, had righteous cause and so on (no matter that the politicians were lying b'stards) then you are not guilty of any sin. I know, by THAT standard hitler is possibly sitting within the pearly gates but hey ho...

personally i believe there is a creator, but I recon he did his creating bit and then left the legacy to whoever OR whatever made it to sentience saying "hey guys...here's a universe....warts and all ...sorry about the warts but they are kinda necessary to the "workings of it all"...NOW...catch me up, I've made it so you will eventually get a brain....USE IT.

I dont think he gives a monkeys about what we do, he certainly isnt interested in what we eat, wear, or with whom we may choose to "sack it". and i seriously doubt if he's at ALL bothered if we kneel in cold draughty stone buildings to pray to him or not (though he may well appreciate the odd "thank you ")

I DONT beleive there is ANY such thing as "sin" (as an offence to the creator) merely breaking mans laws...and you can only therefor suffer MANS sanctions.

we are simply too insignificant as individuals to have any affect on the creator.

lol yeah trust in your own good works that will go down really well..

nope you sad sack....just dont spend your life either worrying about whether you have sinned or not
and certainly dont listen to the religiosi, Especially those hypocrites "the Born Agains".....The creator wont judge you ....period.... let alone for "works".....

victorismyhero wrote:nope you sad sack....just dont spend your life either worrying about whether you have sinned or not
and certainly dont listen to the religiosi, Especially those hypocrites "the Born Agains".....The creator wont judge you ....period.... let alone for "works".....

wow you finally got something right, no he won't judge the believer but the unbelievers will be judged by their works...  

NO...the creator simply wont judge...because there is nothing to judge. There IS no "sin" (as an offence to the creator).

victorismyhero wrote:NO...the creator simply wont judge...because there is nothing to judge. There IS no "sin"  (as an offence to the creator).

you keep telling yourself that, have you ever driven down the m62 and said "there is no Manchester"...  

well if I drove "Down" the m62 there would be no manchester   
and I will keep telling myself that.....since i have seen NO reason to believe otherwise. In fact I have plenty of evidence to believe that I am right and you are wrong..

lets see...you believe in a book which is of dubious provenance (proven)
you believe in a narrow and even heretical interpretation of that book
you contradict yourself and seem confused as to the inerrancy of that book
you take from that book ONLY the things that support your narrow view of the subject (cherry picking in otherwords)
You rely on circular argument to support your heresy

victorismyhero wrote:well if I drove "Down" the m62 there would be no manchester   
and I will keep telling myself that.....since i have seen NO reason to believe otherwise. In fact I have plenty of evidence to believe that I am right and you are wrong..

lets see...you believe in a book which is of dubious provenance (proven)
you believe in a narrow and even heretical interpretation of that book
you contradict yourself and seem confused as to the inerrancy of that book
you take from that book ONLY the things that support your narrow view of the subject (cherry picking in otherwords)
You rely on circular argument to support your heresy

lol wrong on all accounts but that's just your limited ability to reason...  

nicko wrote:if a soldier kills in war,is he forgiven?

He is Praised by Mars, Ares, Maro, Oro, Ashur, Ankt, Tyr
and Countless other gods

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/godsmyth/a/102110-War-Gods-And-Goddesses.htm

heavenly father wrote:

victorismyhero wrote:well if I drove "Down" the m62 there would be no manchester  
and I will keep telling myself that.....since i have seen NO reason to believe otherwise. In fact I have plenty of evidence to believe that I am right and you are wrong..

lets see...you believe in a book which is of dubious provenance (proven)
you believe in a narrow and even heretical interpretation of that book
you contradict yourself and seem confused as to the inerrancy of that book
you take from that book ONLY the things that support your narrow view of the subject (cherry picking in otherwords)
You rely on circular argument to support your heresy

lol wrong on all accounts but that's just your limited ability to reason...

LOL no HF he is not wrong. you display exactly that ,you are a Heretic to your own beliefs, a Hypocrite. One of the followers of Christ that is the complete opposite of what Christ stood for. You Preach Love But Practice Hate. Forgiveness is only for you it seems, and those like you, a homosexual according to you could never accept Jesus and therefore be just as entitled to God's forgiveness and entry to heaven as you.

The Quote From Gandhi Sums you up perfectly.
Mahatma Gandhi — 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

You admit you are a sinner and need forgiveness SO why do you disobey Christ and keep throwing stones?

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenly father wrote:

lol wrong on all accounts but that's just your limited ability to reason...

LOL no HF he is not wrong. you display exactly that ,you are a Heretic to your own beliefs, a Hypocrite. One of the followers of Christ that is the complete opposite of what Christ stood for. You Preach Love But Practice Hate. Forgiveness is only for you it seems, and those like you, a homosexual according to you could never accept Jesus and therefore be just as entitled to God's forgiveness and entry to heaven as you.

The Quote From Gandhi Sums you up perfectly.
Mahatma Gandhi — 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

You admit you are a sinner and need forgiveness SO why do you disobey Christ and keep throwing stones?

lol you no nothing about what i believe other than what you chose, if a gay accepts Jesus all their sins are forgiven just the same as anyone elses...  

you have the same attitude as many others you think Christians should just accept everyone as they are and do nothing about it, That was not how Jesus did it or how he commands his followers to be but obviously you would know nothing about that either..  

@HF
Jesus told you to Accept everyone as they are.
The Church has told you otherwise. you have a few vague sentences that could be taken as being against homosexuals and put them over Direct quotes from Jesus where he black and white states the lesson that you should live by. Love they fellow man, Jesus literally told you that if i slap you, you have to trun your cheek and ask me to hit that too. And you still need to love me.

Since you Follow mortals over the divine....
Find a New Testament quote against homosexuals. you have already shown that Jesus throw away the old laws. Show me something attributed to Jesus himself that says hating gays is ok

veya_victaous wrote:@HF
Jesus told you to Accept everyone as they are.
The Church has told you otherwise. you have a few vague sentences that could be taken as being against homosexuals and put them over Direct quotes from Jesus where he black and white states the lesson that you should live by. Love they fellow man, Jesus literally told you that if i slap you, you have to trun your cheek and ask me to hit that too. And you still need to love me.

Since you Follow mortals over the divine....
Find a New Testament quote against homosexuals. you have already shown that Jesus throw away the old laws. Show me something attributed to Jesus himself that says hating gays is ok

that is simply not true, I follow the word of God over anything any man says, whether pastor or preacher, the word of God has the final say, the word of God calls what gay men do an abomination but they can be forgiven the same as anyone can..

the whole word of God is what Jesus says....  

heavenly father wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

LOL no HF he is not wrong. you display exactly that ,you are a Heretic to your own beliefs, a Hypocrite. One of the followers of Christ that is the complete opposite of what Christ stood for. You Preach Love But Practice Hate. Forgiveness is only for you it seems, and those like you, a homosexual according to you could never accept Jesus and therefore be just as entitled to God's forgiveness and entry to heaven as you.

The Quote From Gandhi Sums you up perfectly.
Mahatma Gandhi — 'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'

You admit you are a sinner and need forgiveness SO why do you disobey Christ and keep throwing stones?

lol you no nothing about what i believe other than what you chose, if a gay accepts Jesus all their sins are forgiven just the same as anyone elses...

you have the same attitude as many others you think Christians should just accept everyone as they are and do nothing about it, That was not how Jesus did it or how he commands his followers to be but obviously you would know nothing about that either..

Not true, You have said over and over that you believe the BIBLE, well I can read the Bible too. So yes I do know What you believe IF you are a Christian. Because Christians Wrote down what they believe and are not allowed to believe anything else or they go to hell according to their Bible. I have said it before Humans trying to use the limited means of communications available to mortals to describe the divine are destine to fail as the divine is a concept far too grand for mortals to comprehend let alone put into mortal words. I find the very notion that it is possible for a mortal to know the will of the divine offensive.

heavenly father wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:@HF
Jesus told you to Accept everyone as they are.
The Church has told you otherwise. you have a few vague sentences that could be taken as being against homosexuals and put them over Direct quotes from Jesus where he black and white states the lesson that you should live by. Love they fellow man, Jesus literally told you that if i slap you, you have to trun your cheek and ask me to hit that too. And you still need to love me.

Since you Follow mortals over the divine....
Find a New Testament quote against homosexuals. you have already shown that Jesus throw away the old laws. Show me something attributed to Jesus himself that says hating gays is ok

that is simply not true, I follow the word of God over anything any man says, whether pastor or preacher, the word of God has the final say, the word of God calls what gay men do an abomination but they can be forgiven the same as anyone can..

the whole word of God is what Jesus says....

Please show where God has said that it is an Abomination.. That is not cancelled by Jesus calling the old laws void. It is no more an abomination that putting 2 seeds in one hole or eating shellfish according to the Old Testament.

And read the story of Sodom, it didn't get destroyed for being gay it got destroyed for using Homophobic insults against and Angel in disguise. So being Homophobic (or insulting an angel) was the sin.

1 corinthians
9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

neither God or I hate homosexuals..

Paul the Apostle and "Sosthenes our brother" wrote this epistle to "the church of God which is at Corinth", in Greece.[1Cor.1:1–2]

NEVER supported by Jesus. Just the Words of a Mortal named Paul.

But Since you think it is critical I hope you have NEVER had sex for pleasure... Because that same section says fornicators are just as bad.

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

veya_victaous wrote:Paul the Apostle and "Sosthenes our brother" wrote this epistle to "the church of God which is at Corinth", in Greece.[1Cor.1:1–2]

NEVER supported by Jesus. Just the Words of a Mortal named Paul.

But Since you think it is critical I hope you have NEVER had sex for pleasure... Because that same section says fornicators are just as bad.

Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

the whole bible is the word of God and as such is truth from God, fornicators are those who have sex out of marriage normally but don't worry i'm married...  

Really
So the part with Paul talking to the people of Corinth about going there to preach to them, written by Paul in first person is the work of god.
SO God wrote a letter did he?

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral persons— 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since you would then need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister c who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? 13 God will judge those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”

And 1 Corinthians 4 makes NO sense what so ever if it is Written as/by God, it is clearly Paul talking about himself and the apostles

Think of us in this way, as servants of Christ and stewards of God’s mysteries. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.

So GOD says to ignore the law of the land and take it to Church people instead. Pretty sure that is Sharia

When any of you has a grievance against another, do you dare to take it to court before the unrighteous, instead of taking it before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels—to say nothing of ordinary matters? 4 If you have ordinary cases, then, do you appoint as judges those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to decide between one believer a and another, 6 but a believer b goes to court against a believer c—and before unbelievers at that?