This countries unemployment policy is simply not working.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

So because people did it years ago with basic tools then you are saying that that's how it should be done now and that modern methods should just be ignored.. That means it will take longer to do it and if people are not trained on how repairs should be done properly then they'll be back doing the work all over again.

Another one straight out of the Tory mindset.

Priceless

Yes people did it for years and also built buildings and works of art like the railways feats of astounding engineering, mainly done by the ordinary person who needed no qualifications. I am not saying all things don;t need training but there are basic things like fixing holes that do not require much if any training, when your task is to fill a hole. Seriously you are telling me a person needs training to know how to fill a hole?

Yes another pointless qualification created by the left, how to fill a hole.

Irn Bru wrote:

sphinx wrote:

What exactly do you mean by proper training tools and machinery though?  There are plenty of jobs than be done with with ordinary labour or with more complicated machinery.  For instance a carpenter can saw through wood with a hand saw or an electric saw - the electric saw is quicker but the handsaw does just as good a job.  If the use of carpenter is going to be getting paid the same whether he does the job done in 5 minutes or 5 hours there is no need for an electric saw.

The very fact that you ask that question in relation to working and fixing the roads etc. and what you go on to say after that just tells me what you really have in mind. You want people to work with just the bare essentials using hard graft when there are tools and machinery available that will do it more quickly and more efficiently. And they have to be properly trained because it's not all that safe working on a road. And just pouring concrete down a hole will only fix a pothole until it rains for a few days or there is a hard frost.
You see, you really don't have a clue and nether would the people that want to send out to do the work with probably just a pick and shovel which makes it hard labour for no other reason than for it to be hard labour. And they'll be back a few weeks later to fix it all again complete with a set of temporary traffic lights causing misery for all those held up while they get on with it.
I really should have known better when you first brought this up that there was more to it than just fixing the roads but I've got you now and you can ram it.

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Yes people did it for years and also built buildings and works of art like the railways feats of astounding engineering, mainly done by the ordinary person who needed no qualifications. I am not saying all things don;t need training but there are basic things like fixing holes that do not require much if any training, when your task is to fill a hole. Seriously you are telling me a person needs training to know how to fill a hole?

Yes another pointless qualification created by the left, how to fill a hole.

Yes people did it for years and also built buildings and works of art like the railways feats of astounding engineering because they were real tradesmen who learned their craft and were not just given a pick and shovel and told to get on with it.

Proves my point exactly.

Cheers for that Didge,

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:
True Didge, It aint rocket science, BUT, it still requires to be done within the requirements of the relevant standards, or there incurrs a liability on the part of both the employeee AND (more particularly) the employer . You see this is where I dissagree with you so much, you are an Idealist...in all you posts, but this isnt an ideal world, and we cant make it so, strewth a guy got nailed to a cross for trying. However, that said..keep it up, the ideas of the idealist give fuel to those who push and shove....

But that is the point, what level of expertise for you need to shovel gravel into a hole, or role a roller over it? Nobody is saying using a pneumatic drill or a digger, seriously do the two things I state really need such standards, when most people are very capable of doing such things daily in their own home areas?
It maybe not an ideal world but changes do not come from being negative all the time, and people you believe in themselves and push themselves generally succeed, so being an idealist is a far better way of living your life, as negativity will always bring you down

Now here's the rub, you see the standards require for a public road, that the repair medium be impacted into the hole with a certain amount of force, which can ONLY be acheived by some machiney (hand impacting with a rammer IS permitted, but ONLY where the road would otherwise remain impassable for EMERGENCY vehicles). Now these various machines require training to operate (would YOU and indeed could you , safely, use an "irish mans pogo stick" without training??) and in some cases the relevant licence so...

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Yes people did it for years and also built buildings and works of art like the railways feats of astounding engineering because they were real tradesmen who learned their craft and were not just given a pick and shovel and told to get on with it.

Proves my point exactly.

Cheers for that Didge,

Did they need any qualifications?

Nope, so no your point just got smashed and you know it, because you are now ducking out knowing some things clearly do not need much if any training

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Yes people did it for years and also built buildings and works of art like the railways feats of astounding engineering because they were real tradesmen who learned their craft and were not just given a pick and shovel and told to get on with it.

Proves my point exactly.

Cheers for that Didge,

Did they need any qualifications?

Nope, so no your point just got smashed and you know it, because you are now ducking out knowing some things clearly do not need much if any training

sphinx wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

The very fact that you ask that question in relation to working and fixing the roads etc. and what you go on to say after that just tells me what you really have in mind. You want people to work with just the bare essentials using hard graft when there are tools and machinery available that will do it more quickly and more efficiently. And they have to be properly trained because it's not all that safe working on a road. And just pouring concrete down a hole will only fix a pothole until it rains for a few days or there is a hard frost.
You see, you really don't have a clue and nether would the people that want to send out to do the work with probably just a pick and shovel which makes it hard labour for no other reason than for it to be hard labour. And they'll be back a few weeks later to fix it all again complete with a set of temporary traffic lights causing misery for all those held up while they get on with it.
I really should have known better when you first brought this up that there was more to it than just fixing the roads but I've got you now and you can ram it.

Actually hon I do have a clue - take what pot hole repairs do get done around here (normally after someone sues because their suspension has broken) they are done one of 2 ways - a crew of "engineers" turn up with traffic lights and machinery that pours some sort of gravel underpinning into the hole, then hammers it down, then pours some special half concrete half tarmac quick sealer over the top and roles it.  Or a crew of road workers with twisty stop/go signs turn up, shovel the gravel stuff into the hole, use manual tramp things to compress it down, get a bucket of the sealant stuff pour it in then use a hand roller.  Both types of repair seem to have equal life spans dependent on whether there is "weather" immediately after they are done and if anything the crews doing them by hand are slightly quicker.

So I know pot holes can be repaired 2 different ways - one of which requires less fancy equipment and training than the other one.

Another "job" that could be done around here is in a couple of places the topography of the the land means that road flooding could be prevented by building a clay bank for a couple of hundred meters (the fields would still be flooded but they are underwater for about a week to 10 days when the road is not flooded) and again this is something that can be done perfectly adequately by ordinary manual labour.

What I am trying to avoid is claims the potholes cant be fixed this way because it has to be done with engineers using equipment that needs training on when obviously it doesnt.

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Did they need any qualifications?

Nope, so no your point just got smashed and you know it, because you are now ducking out knowing some things clearly do not need much if any training

I think you are deliberately missing the point....YES they DID need "qualifications" NO these were not bits of paper, it was time served under supervision...read what Irn said....THEY learned their craft and were not just given a pick and shovel and told to get on with it

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Did they need any qualifications?

Nope, so no your point just got smashed and you know it, because you are now ducking out knowing some things clearly do not need much if any training

Their qualifications were in their learned hands by learning their skills and their trade properly. They didn't just turn them out from the dole office with a pick and a shovel. They also developed their tools in line with what means were available at the time and they used them.

Point proven again Didge.

Thumbs up chum.

grumpy old git wrote:will always bring you down

Now here's the rub, you see the standards require for a public road, that the repair medium be impacted into the hole with a certain amount of force, which can ONLY be acheived by some machiney (hand impacting with a rammer IS permitted, but ONLY where the road would otherwise remain impassable for EMERGENCY vehicles). Now these various machines require training to operate (would YOU and indeed could you , safely, use an "irish mans pogo stick" without training??) and in some cases the relevant licence so...

sphinx wrote:Uh I have met ragwort - there is a legal obligation on landowners to remove it, not so much for its toxicity to humans but its toxicity to livestock.  Humans are perfectly safe so long as they wear rubber gloves and dont eat it.  It should be burned though not left to rot or dry as it becomes even more dangerous to livestock in that condition as the chemicals that give it a bitter taste to put animals off are destroyed so they are more likely to eat it.  I was not popular with either my landlord or my neighbours when I pointed out the abundance of it around here and forced them to do something about it   

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:


I think you are deliberately missing the point....YES they DID need "qualifications" NO these were not bits of paper, it was time served under supervision...read what Irn said....THEY learned their craft and were not just given a pick and shovel and told to get on with it

No they never needed qualifications Grumpy that is the point you are missing, they learnt on the job as can be done here, so thanks for proving my point

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:will always bring you down

Now here's the rub, you see the standards require for a public road, that the repair medium be impacted into the hole with a certain amount of force, which can ONLY be acheived by some machiney (hand impacting with a rammer IS permitted, but ONLY where the road would otherwise remain impassable for EMERGENCY vehicles). Now these various machines require training to operate (would YOU and indeed could you , safely, use an "irish mans pogo stick" without training??) and in some cases the relevant licence so...

 ://?roflmao?/: 

Hardly old timer, and always very much happy in life and positive, better than being a grump who is negative all the time, your forum names speaks volumes

Fuck me grumpy your answers are getting a tad desperate now, we are talking about diffing and filling holes and in some cases using a roller, not rocket science, the tasks you show would be done by people who would have training, and even then these people people could learn off the others these abilities in a very short space of time, they are again not rocket science and has been done for hundreds of years without it

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


No they never needed qualifications Grumpy that is the point you are missing, they learnt on the job as can be done here, so thanks for proving my point

Who did they learn it on the job from Didge? People who had the knowledge and the skills to teach them how to do it is the answer. In other words - training them.  

Job done

Irn Bru wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Actually hon I do have a clue - take what pot hole repairs do get done around here (normally after someone sues because their suspension has broken) they are done one of 2 ways - a crew of "engineers" turn up with traffic lights and machinery that pours some sort of gravel underpinning into the hole, then hammers it down, then pours some special half concrete half tarmac quick sealer over the top and roles it.  Or a crew of road workers with twisty stop/go signs turn up, shovel the gravel stuff into the hole, use manual tramp things to compress it down, get a bucket of the sealant stuff pour it in then use a hand roller.  Both types of repair seem to have equal life spans dependent on whether there is "weather" immediately after they are done and if anything the crews doing them by hand are slightly quicker.

So I know pot holes can be repaired 2 different ways - one of which requires less fancy equipment and training than the other one.

Another "job" that could be done around here is in a couple of places the topography of the the land means that road flooding could be prevented by building a clay bank for a couple of hundred meters (the fields would still be flooded but they are underwater for about a week to 10 days when the road is not flooded) and again this is something that can be done perfectly adequately by ordinary manual labour.

What I am trying to avoid is claims the potholes cant be fixed this way because it has to be done with engineers using equipment that needs training on when obviously it doesnt.

Right, so first thing in the morning you can nip round the dole office and get half a dozen men, give them a pick and shovel, show them a pothole and tell them to fix it and you'll be back in a few hours to see how they got on and you will be able to judge if it has been repaired properly?

  

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


 ://?roflmao?/: 

Hardly old timer, and always very much happy in life and positive, better than being a grump who is negative all the time, your forum names speaks volumes

Fuck me grumpy your answers are getting a tad desperate now, we are talking about diffing and filling holes and in some cases using a roller, not rocket science, the tasks you show would be done by people who would have training, and even then these people people could learn off the others these abilities in a very short space of time, they are again not rocket science and has been done for hundreds of years without it

Again you see the idealist v's the realist.....I dont say it COULDNT be done, and indeed see no reason for it not to be done, BUT you see there is this little thing called law, which pokes it head into everything, usually with good cause. The LAW says that things must be done this way or that way, that some things need training,etc...not me. If you care to take the time, be a gent and read ALL of my responses, I think you will find that my message is a conditioned thumbs up. conditioned subject to certain safeguards, both as applied to the persons involved AND with regard to the legal obligations of the employer.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Who did they learn it on the job from Didge? People who had the knowledge and the skills to teach them how to do it is the answer. In other words - training them.  

Job done

Training on the job, all of teo minutes, here pick up shovel, dig hole.

 ://?roflmao?/: 

yes that took all of 2 seconds!

grumpy old git wrote:

sphinx wrote:Uh I have met ragwort - there is a legal obligation on landowners to remove it, not so much for its toxicity to humans but its toxicity to livestock.  Humans are perfectly safe so long as they wear rubber gloves and dont eat it.  It should be burned though not left to rot or dry as it becomes even more dangerous to livestock in that condition as the chemicals that give it a bitter taste to put animals off are destroyed so they are more likely to eat it.  I was not popular with either my landlord or my neighbours when I pointed out the abundance of it around here and forced them to do something about it   

Uhmmm...actually, you shouldnt burn it on an open fire, it should go in a high temperature incinerator..and you should avoid inhaling the pollen thats as bad as anything. nasty stuff all round.

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Who did they learn it on the job from Didge? People who had the knowledge and the skills to teach them how to do it is the answer. In other words - training them.  

Job done

Training on the job, all of teo minutes, here pick up shovel, dig hole.

 ://?roflmao?/: 

yes that took all of 2 seconds!

Irn Bru wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Training on the job, all of teo minutes, here pick up shovel, dig hole.

 ://?roflmao?/: 

yes that took all of 2 seconds!

You're just the gift that keeps on giving on this one Didge and that post above just proves my point again.

Never mind. Both Sphinx and yourself can nip round the dole office in the morning and get a team up, give them a oick and shovel and show them how to repair roads.

Honestly Didge, That is flippin hilarious and I tell you I would pay money to watch the comedy which would probably resemble something similar to the Keystone Cops.

    

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Training on the job, all of teo minutes, here pick up shovel, dig hole.

 ://?roflmao?/: 

yes that took all of 2 seconds!

YUP...easy innit....if you dont care whether or not the person ends up with a damaged back....

It would take about 4-6 hours to Properly train someone (who has never done it ...remember your "subjects" could be soft palmed office wallahs) to use a shovel correctly...It may seem an idiot job to you Didge....because you have been used to it since being a kid, like me....but even I can remember having to learn that there is a hard way and an easy way to shovel...and THAT depends on just what you are shoveling and where....YOU do it instinctivly NOW...not everyone has that bit of apparently "simple" knowledge. THATS not turning shoveling into "rocket science" thats REALITY....do it the WRONG way and its gonna damage you, especially if you are a "bit older"

But agreed ..some jobs dont take a lot of training, but others do...see my point about the apparently simple task of weeding verges.....

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

You're just the gift that keeps on giving on this one Didge and that post above just proves my point again.

Never mind. Both Sphinx and yourself can nip round the dole office in the morning and get a team up, give them a oick and shovel and show them how to repair roads.

Honestly Didge, That is flippin hilarious and I tell you I would pay money to watch the comedy which would probably resemble something similar to the Keystone Cops.

    

 :/pwn://: 


More like you got owned Irn never mind, at least myself and sphinx believe in ways to better a persons situation, where whilst looking for a job, they can have some work and have some motivation in their life, instead of being down at home. They can have some meaning, which employers like to see people doing anything which shows willing. Seriously I hope you do not run a business no doubt you would have conference call to organise a safety check for you just to enter the building daily.


 ://?roflmao?/:

PhilDidge wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

See, see. There it is in black and white. Just shovel gravel into a hole and put a roller over it and hey presto the problem is fixed.

That is absolutely priceless.

I am showing the basic of an argument, of course there is more to it, but are you saying nobody fills any of the holes?


PMSL

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:

Again you see the idealist v's the realist.....I dont say it COULDNT be done, and indeed see no reason for it not to be done, BUT you see there is this little thing called law, which pokes it head into everything, usually with good cause. The LAW says that things must be done this way or that way, that some things need training,etc...not me. If you care to take the time, be a gent and read ALL of my responses, I think you will find that my message is a conditioned thumbs up. conditioned subject to certain safeguards, both as applied to the persons involved AND with regard to the legal obligations of the employer.

I have realism and idealism, you can have both showing why you are so short sighted on such matters and the fact is laws can change and the fact is we do have stupid work laws from the EU, which I find daft which without there would be so much ease in doing things.

Now a days things have become to over complicated, it takes how a stupid amount of people to just change a light bulb, and please don;t tell me you also do not think some of things stated with health and safety are not way over the top?

So the law as it is at the moment is over the top, simple as and many would agree that on health and safety  some poeple have too much time to think up some silly notions they have

gerber wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am showing the basic of an argument, of course there is more to it, but are you saying nobody fills any of the holes?


PMSL

Guys there must be  EU legislation to measure the exact quantity of gravel plus the weight of roller required to flatten the hole.  So without the Commissioner coming out to inspect every filled orifice the prospect of getting non wage earners a job who have not taken the EU hole filling directive quiz and scored at least 98% _ personally marked by the expert Baroness Ashcroft herself or maybe on a bad day Lord Mc Alpine, the whole idea is a dead duck.

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I have realism and idealism, you can have both showing why you are so short sighted on such matters and the fact is laws can change and the fact is we do have stupid work laws from the EU, which I find daft which without there would be so much ease in doing things.

Now a days things have become to over complicated, it takes how a stupid amount of people to just change a light bulb, and please don;t tell me you also do not think some of things stated with health and safety are not way over the top?

So the law as it is at the moment is over the top, simple as and many would agree that on health and safety  some poeple have too much time to think up some silly notions they have

MMMM...dont get me going about health and safety, though it IS true that much of the non-sense is just that...non sense dreamed up by idiots in bodies OTHER than the H&S executive, like councils, employers etc. The ACTUAL. REAL H&S laws are perfectly good, and generally sensible, controlling exposure to toxics, allergens  and specific physical and electrical risks, what OTHERS make of them is another matter.

Yes some laws could change, but what , how, and under what supervision, to prevent exploitation? are you suggesting that we should adopt a second class H&S policy for the unemployed drafted worker or should there be a "sensible" policy across the board, in which case...who gets to decide whats sensible??
I'm Lucky, you see I'm a sole owner one man band business, and thanks to camergoon (and this is the one and only thing he has done good for me) H&S in general no longer applies to me...I...that is me alone am responsible for deciding what i consider safe working practices within my workshop.  

as I said...It can and should be done....but...carefully, and thoughtfully too, which sadly rules out most local authorities, most of them cant get together a single coherent thought in a month of meetings. remember the camel....a horse designed by a comittee

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:

YUP...easy innit....if you dont care whether or not the person ends up with a damaged back....

It would take about 4-6 hours to Properly train someone (who has never done it ...remember your "subjects" could be soft palmed office wallahs) to use a shovel correctly...It may seem an idiot job to you Didge....because you have been used to it since being a kid, like me....but even I can remember having to learn that there is a hard way and an easy way to shovel...and THAT depends on just what you are shoveling and where....YOU do it instinctivly NOW...not everyone has that bit of apparently "simple" knowledge. THATS not turning shoveling into "rocket science" thats REALITY....do it the WRONG way and its gonna damage you, especially if you are a "bit older"

But agreed ..some jobs dont take a lot of training, but others do...see my point about the apparently simple task of weeding verges.....

Fuck me you are getting desperate, how long does it take to tell someone to keep their back straight and to bend their knees when leaning down into a movement?
Seriously you are making this daft now and one thing I have found is how they have a course for a full day on Manuel handling when most of it is common bloody sense.  
Seriously most people do similar things daily around the house when it comes to Manuel types of work, hence why you are being ever so desperate over this

gerber wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am showing the basic of an argument, of course there is more to it, but are you saying nobody fills any of the holes?


PMSL

Guys there must be  EU legislation to measure the exact quantity of gravel plus the weight of roller required to flatten the hole.  So without the Commissioner coming out to inspect every filled orifice the prospect of getting non wage earners a job who have not taken the EU hole filling directive quiz and scored at least 98% _ personally marked by the expert Baroness Ashcroft herself or maybe on a bad day Lord Mc Alpine, the whole idea is a dead duck.

grumpy old git wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


Fuck me you are getting desperate, how long does it take to tell someone to keep their back straight and to bend their knees when leaning down into a movement?
Seriously you are making this daft now and one thing I have found is how they have a course for a full day on Manuel handling when most of it is common bloody sense.  
Seriously most people do similar things daily around the house when it comes to Manuel types of work, hence why you are being ever so desperate over this

oh shut yer bloody rubbish up about "desperate" and "I win" crap...you are like a spoilt bloody school kid. it AINT a competition...its a discusion...get it...an exchange of ideas, points and counter points...


that said...It MAY be common sense...to YOU and me and many others....we have done it times....many havnt...go look up stats on back injuries and how many say "its the first time i lifted anything that heavy"
thing is the OBVIOUS way to lift....Is NOT the RIGHT way...and thats just lifting...

I know all about back straight bend knees and so on....now what about shoveling...go on...how do YOU shovel ballast into a cement mixer??  and do answer this its very pertinent
nt....

sphinx wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:More public sector workers it is then.

      

The money comes from the same source and this is actual work that does need to be done.  I object to increases in public sector employment with make work schemes doing stuff that is totally unnecessary  (like roller blading co-ordinator)  I do not object to getting people who have no work do work which is necessary and beneficial to everyone and being paid to so it.

grumpy old git wrote:

gerber wrote:

Guys there must be  EU legislation to measure the exact quantity of gravel plus the weight of roller required to flatten the hole.  So without the Commissioner coming out to inspect every filled orifice the prospect of getting non wage earners a job who have not taken the EU hole filling directive quiz and scored at least 98% _ personally marked by the expert Baroness Ashcroft herself or maybe on a bad day Lord Mc Alpine, the whole idea is a dead duck.

Sadly Gerber, you are more right than you could possibly imagine....there are rules about the size of the material in the gravel ....and...wait for it.......the "sharpness" i.e shape of the various sizes  

sphinx wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

After training there is no reason why they cannot be taken on as public sector workers by the council other than the councils are skint because Osborne has cut their funding from central government.

The grim reality of 'the cuts'

But they are still being paid for not doing anything!!!!

The whole cuts excuse is a blind.  The whole "no money for councils" thing is a blind.

Fact all funding for government and councils comes from the same source - the taxes of privately paid incomes (be they wages inheritance or whatever)

It is ridiculous to have a situation where a man can be stuck doing nothing and getting £8800 a year while there is a job not done because it would pay £12900 a year.  If the man is taken on to do the work the actual cost to the public purse  is £4100 because it was already paying out £8800.

It is often argued that as a society we have option but to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves so people who cannot find work in the private sector will always have to be paid by the public sector - so surely the simple choice is are those seen as an unavoidable drain on resources or a usable resource in their own right.

Again if tomorrow every person claiming JSA was phoned up and told there was work for them starting immediately paying minimum wage and they were sent out to help fix and maintain roads/verges what would be bad about  it?

gerber wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:

Sadly Gerber, you are more right than you could possibly imagine....there are rules about the size of the material in the gravel ....and...wait for it.......the "sharpness" i.e shape of the various sizes  

That is the saddest bit of all.  I does know even though I am a mere Cinderella locked in the kitchen of the house all day every day with very little to keep me amused apart from the occasional poke of the fire as a work out and to keep warm.  I had to order some gravel /hardcore ( Stones ) the other month, never in my entire life had I had such a quandary.  The Telegraph cryptic took less time. Then there was the quantity never mind the size..............

Anyways got both wrong.......

Joy Division wrote:

sphinx wrote:

The money comes from the same source and this is actual work that does need to be done.  I object to increases in public sector employment with make work schemes doing stuff that is totally unnecessary  (like roller blading co-ordinator)  I do not object to getting people who have no work do work which is necessary and beneficial to everyone and being paid to so it.

The government and the public are all slaves to the fat cat bankers sphinx and what you really want are the unemployed working for their benefits , why don't you set a good example and do just that yourself?..

Or volunteer work?, plenty of that everywhere ...will do your mind and soul the world of good love.

Maybe tell Osborne and Cameron to take a 50 % reduction in salary and stop profiting off the backs of fat cat banks.

Korben Dallas wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But they are still being paid for not doing anything!!!!

The whole cuts excuse is a blind.  The whole "no money for councils" thing is a blind.

Fact all funding for government and councils comes from the same source - the taxes of privately paid incomes (be they wages inheritance or whatever)

It is ridiculous to have a situation where a man can be stuck doing nothing and getting £8800 a year while there is a job not done because it would pay £12900 a year.  If the man is taken on to do the work the actual cost to the public purse  is £4100 because it was already paying out £8800.

It is often argued that as a society we have option but to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves so people who cannot find work in the private sector will always have to be paid by the public sector - so surely the simple choice is are those seen as an unavoidable drain on resources or a usable resource in their own right.

Again if tomorrow every person claiming JSA was phoned up and told there was work for them starting immediately paying minimum wage and they were sent out to help fix and maintain roads/verges what would be bad about  it?

Actually they have to look for work
And they have to prove they are looking for work otherwise they lose their benefit
So to say that they're doing nothing is very misleading and somewhat inaccurate

The number of benefit claims subject to sanctions in the year to June 2013 was 860,000 –
the highest since statistics in their present form began to be published, Department of Work and Pensions figures show


My son who was unemployed for a whole month was sanctioned just before christmass  even though he  was looking for work (he had not been unemployed in the previous two years)

These sanctions were supposed to be the last resort however they are being used as a first resort, it wasn't until his benefit didn't appear in the bank that he even knew about it

People who are sanctiond do have a right of appeal and this is what my son did
But it took four weeks and left him with no money over Christmas
fortunately his appeal was successful with my help and i discovered  the Department of work and pensions have targets they have to meet so instead of sanctioning the people who are not generally looking for work they just picked willy-nilly my son.

PhilDidge wrote:

grumpy old git wrote:

oh shut yer bloody rubbish up about "desperate" and "I win" crap...you are like a spoilt bloody school kid. it AINT a competition...its a discusion...get it...an exchange of ideas, points and counter points...


that said...It MAY be common sense...to YOU and me and many others....we have done it times....many havnt...go look up stats on back injuries and how many say "its the first time i lifted anything that heavy"
thing is the OBVIOUS way to lift....Is NOT the RIGHT way...and thats just lifting...

I know all about back straight bend knees and so on....now what about shoveling...go on...how do YOU shovel ballast into a cement mixer??  and do answer this its very pertinent
nt....

Yes and I know all about Manuel handling, do you know how from taking 5 minutes out to read about it, not hard or difficult and is common sense of which you are eluding to yourself.

Who the fuck said anything about a cement mixer, you keep moving the goal posts to such a basic thing as digging a hole or filling it?  

sphinx wrote:

Korben Dallas wrote:
Actually they have to look for work
And they have to prove they are looking for work otherwise they lose their benefit
So to say that they're doing nothing is very misleading and somewhat inaccurate

The number of benefit claims subject to sanctions in the year to June 2013 was 860,000 –
the highest since statistics in their present form began to be published, Department of Work and Pensions figures show


My son who was unemployed for a whole month was sanctioned just before christmass  even though he  was looking for work (he had not been unemployed in the previous two years)

These sanctions were supposed to be the last resort however they are being used as a first resort, it wasn't until his benefit didn't appear in the bank that he even knew about it

People who are sanctiond do have a right of appeal and this is what my son did
But it took four weeks and left him with no money over Christmas
fortunately his appeal was successful with my help and i discovered  the Department of work and pensions have targets they have to meet so instead of sanctioning the people who are not generally looking for work they just picked willy-nilly my son.

Do you think the average jobseeker like your son would prefer to be looking for work getting £8800 a year or working and getting £12900 a year?

Seeing as that is what I am suggesting happens.

sphinx wrote:

Korben Dallas wrote:
Actually they have to look for work
And they have to prove they are looking for work otherwise they lose their benefit
So to say that they're doing nothing is very misleading and somewhat inaccurate

The number of benefit claims subject to sanctions in the year to June 2013 was 860,000 –
the highest since statistics in their present form began to be published, Department of Work and Pensions figures show


My son who was unemployed for a whole month was sanctioned just before christmass  even though he  was looking for work (he had not been unemployed in the previous two years)

These sanctions were supposed to be the last resort however they are being used as a first resort, it wasn't until his benefit didn't appear in the bank that he even knew about it

People who are sanctiond do have a right of appeal and this is what my son did
But it took four weeks and left him with no money over Christmas
fortunately his appeal was successful with my help and i discovered  the Department of work and pensions have targets they have to meet so instead of sanctioning the people who are not generally looking for work they just picked willy-nilly my son.

Do you think the average jobseeker like your son would prefer to be looking for work getting £8800 a year or working and getting £12900 a year?

Seeing as that is what I am suggesting happens.

grumpy old git wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you think the average jobseeker like your son would prefer to be looking for work getting £8800 a year or working and getting £12900 a year?

Seeing as that is what I am suggesting happens.

There is one other point I think you may have missed Sphinx....

Its not just manpower that is holding up many of these things, Its the cost of materials, the cost of equipment, protective clothing etc etc..Then there are associated manpower costs, NI, admin, pension provision
Not only can the councils not afford the manpower...they cant afford the tarmac either or the fuel for the vehicles nor.....

also, isnt there a danger that these "cheap" labourers will displace the few existing workers (be they council staff OR private contractors) because they get more than minimum wage, thus driving down wages in the industry further...that is NOT a good thing at all....

Korben Dallas wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you think the average jobseeker like your son would prefer to be looking for work getting £8800 a year or working and getting £12900 a year?

Seeing as that is what I am suggesting happens.

£8800  ? I'm sorry I don't really know who gets £8800 a year not working my son gets £70 a week which would be £3360 a year if he was unemployed for a whole year
his working wage is not much better to be honest "minimum wage £3028.8 for a year

sphinx wrote:

Korben Dallas wrote:
£8800  ? I'm sorry I don't really know who gets £8800 a year not working my son gets £70 a week which would be £3360 a year if he was unemployed for a whole year
his working wage is not much better to be honest "minimum wage £3028.8 for a year

I did not realize your son lived at home - I was working on JSA + rent + council tax ending at a rough figure of £8800.  

As for minimum wage 40 hours a week at £6.31 52 weeks a year = £13, 124 a year - I was slightly out on value of the minimum wage.

How on earth do you work out minimum wage at £3028?

Sassy wrote:I have to laugh at all these RW backers for what Sphinx is saying, when the Government they are backing made 2MILLION public sector workers redundant, for idealogical reasons, and they think that now the Government should employ more people, and they don't see the irony.   The fact that Drinky, of all people, is backing this, when he rants and raves about public sector workers and how more need to be cut, is the biggest hypercrital stance I have ever seen.

gerber wrote:

PhilDidge wrote:


I am showing the basic of an argument, of course there is more to it, but are you saying nobody fills any of the holes?


PMSL

Guys there must be  EU legislation to measure the exact quantity of gravel plus the weight of roller required to flatten the hole.  So without the Commissioner coming out to inspect every filled orifice the prospect of getting non wage earners a job who have not taken the EU hole filling directive quiz and scored at least 98% _ personally marked by the expert Baroness Ashcroft herself or maybe on a bad day Lord Mc Alpine, the whole idea is a dead duck.

Korben Dallas wrote:

sphinx wrote:

I did not realize your son lived at home - I was working on JSA + rent + council tax ending at a rough figure of £8800.  

As for minimum wage 40 hours a week at £6.31 52 weeks a year = £13, 124 a year - I was slightly out on value of the minimum wage.

How on earth do you work out minimum wage at £3028?

8h.5d,12 months  £3028.8 for a year
minimum wage
Year                                21 and over            18 to 20 Under                  18 Apprentice*
2013 (current rate)          £6.31                     £5.03                              £3.72                                           £2.68

So yes i got that wrong minimum wage its worse than his benifit........... not much of an incentive really But he would  rather work

ps i did not deduct NI and tax so a lot less i guess