Grand National 2016 - - WARNING: contains graphic pictures and videos of injured and dying horses

First topic message reminder :

Anyone having a gamble today?

I'm going with these two this year:

Le Reve ** Strong stayer and has recaptured form since being fitted with blinkers; acts on any going. (40/1)

Silviniaco Conti **** Has class and although sometimes quirky must come into the reckoning; solid jumper. (12/1)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/2016/04/09/grand-national-2016-tips-expert-guide-to-aintree-runners-latest/

4EVER2 wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Tell me pets don't have fun.  Lol.

GOOFY DUDE...all animals initiate some form of play---it's the agility/endurance/compition type of human generated PLAY TIME that has zero foundation in their world.

How do you know? How does the animal know to 'turn it off' on an "agility/endurance/compition type" play.

Altogether, my girls raised five horses, and they all went nuts at "agility/endurance/compition type" play. You spend time with them and they express it for you...they love it.

OQ stated > How do you know? How does the animal know to 'turn it off' on an "agility/endurance/compition type" play. 

Altogether, my girls raised five horses, and they all went nuts at "agility/endurance/compition type" play. You spend time with them and they express it for you...they love it.

  "How Do I Know?"  Well, since you've either missed reading all of the other discussions back there {those other pages filled with comments}  , I'll give you another brief summary!
I began my early equine education while still in grade school - prior to that I was just allowed the privilege of mucking stalls under my grandfathers watchful eye. His knowledge and equine training kept the military filled with their military horses/teams for moving equipment/and mules for service work - Fort Riley, KS.
The man knew what he was doing~~~and I started shadowing his ability to work with all types of horses.
I began training my own stock while in the 4th grade and used the resale price of broke horses/mules/teams for my savings account for college. 
Attended college at K-State to learn breeding/blood lines and equine nutrition & management --- transferred to NE {cornhusker college} to study thoroughbred care and bloodline and training race horses.

Not that the value of what your daughters learned while exposed to their brief time with horses that they used as a 'recreational sport' --- that hardly compares to my years of work & study...but had you read the entire thread here; well you'd have been better informed.

4EVER2 wrote:

OQ stated > How do you know? How does the animal know to 'turn it off' on an "agility/endurance/compition type" play. 

Altogether, my girls raised five horses, and they all went nuts at "agility/endurance/compition type" play. You spend time with them and they express it for you...they love it.

  "How Do I Know?"  Well, since you've either missed reading all of the other discussions back there {those other pages filled with comments}  , I'll give you another brief summary!
I began my early equine education while still in grade school - prior to that I was just allowed the privilege of mucking stalls under my grandfathers watchful eye. His knowledge and equine training kept the military filled with their military horses/teams for moving equipment/and mules for service work - Fort Riley, KS.
The man knew what he was doing~~~and I started shadowing his ability to work with all types of horses.
I began training my own stock while in the 4th grade and used the resale price of broke horses/mules/teams for my savings account for college. 
Attended college at K-State to learn breeding/blood lines and equine nutrition & management --- transferred to NE {cornhusker college} to study thoroughbred care and bloodline and training race horses.

Not that the value of what your daughters learned while exposed to their brief time with horses that they used as a 'recreational sport' --- that hardly compares to my years of work & study...but had you read the entire thread here; well you'd have been better informed.

One of those daughters is now a physician. Though admittedly that's not veterinary science, she's not alien to bio sciences and healthy animals.

But there is no bio science of happy horses...at least, none that I know of. The horses in our family were happy horses. Perhaps you had a different experience. Apparently there is no scientific measurement for equine happiness. We'll have to leave it at that.

LOL, you're so NEEDY about some verifiable data for proving that Horses - specifically show happiness by preforming a routine that they've been trained to do!!!

Really --- and that horse wouldn't be just as 'HAPPY' not having been trained to preform those human required routines?

Cattle play - horses play - all farm animals know a form of playtime and that...to our human mind makes it a 'HAPPY' place to tag that emotional behavior.  It's like we have to justify what we humans have done to our pack animals in order to continue to USE THEM for our on enjoyment. 
What you perceive as 'HAPPY HORSE' reacting is just a well trained horse 'BEHAVING' as they were trained to do...I can't explain it any simpler than that, Quill. 
If it doesn't suit your needs for explanation -

4EVER2 wrote:LOL, you're so NEEDY about some verifiable data for proving that Horses - specifically show happiness by preforming a routine that they've been trained to do!!!

Really --- and that horse wouldn't be just as 'HAPPY' not having been trained to preform those human required routines?

Cattle play - horses play - all farm animals know a form of playtime and that...to our human mind makes it a 'HAPPY' place to tag that emotional behavior.  It's like we have to justify what we humans have done to our pack animals in order to continue to USE THEM for our on enjoyment. 
What you perceive as 'HAPPY HORSE' reacting is just a well trained horse 'BEHAVING' as they were trained to do...I can't explain it any simpler than that, Quill. 
If it doesn't suit your needs for explanation -

I think that there is no objective way of measuring animal happiness...that is my point.  You can only sense their pleasure in their interaction with you and your interaction with them.

If we are unable to determine the happiness of a horse--lol--then what are we doing in the business of making judgments about what is, and what is not good for them.  Of course, obvious physical injury and pain is indicative of what we call unhappiness, but our judgment has to end there. We have to consider the possibility that we simply don't belong in their world, or them in ours.

Sea World in San Diego has taken the not altogether clear step of taking human pleasure out of interaction with orcas, apparently on the premise that what makes humans happy has to be the diametric opposite of what makes the orcas happy.  That may be a cynical view, but I think it pretty clearly paces their reasoning.  They have determined to stop all the shows, and keep the animals in social captivity...but not interact with them.  They correctly point out that creatures born and raised in captivity would not survive in the open wild.  But they offer no excuse for quitting the interaction, but that if humans enjoy it, the orcas cannot possibly enjoy it.  It's an extension of the naturalistic fallacy, that all things unnatural must be bad.

On this thread alone, we have seen that interaction with horses is injurious to the animal, throwing sticks for dogs is injurious to the animal, and certainly raising sheep and cattle can be injurious to the animal...etc., etc., etc....should we conclude that any interaction with humans is bad or immoral?

I reject that--perhaps in part on metaphysical grounds--but I think I have seen enough to convince me that the animals enjoy interacting with humans as much as humans enjoy interaction with animals.  The kitten in the clip is but one example.  Of course, its anthropomorphic, but really, so is human social life.  

We have to make some assumptions.

I see your rational and POV...I'm just explaining what I've learned from my years of USING horses for my own enjoyment and what I think NOW.

And as my own recent knowledge of how elephants will show human ability {our own method of seeing a problem and changing the outcome by team working}
 


WE HUMANS, have just recently chose to study the wild life without imposing our own interventions & reactions to their daily life cycles. And the footage from those people able to dedicate their lives to do this --- well, they are providing all of us with such knowledge and insights...that we've never bothered to exam before.


All of our domesticated animals are pack or herd socially driven --- yes, a horse will bond to their care giver --- that's never in dispute --- it's the reasoning of saying that a Happy Horse will prove that they enjoy their training by continuing: the pattern - running the race - reacting in the same manner that they've been trained to do. 
That's where you and I fall apart...conditioned response isn't the same as a 'HAPPY' spontaneous response.

Ergo the very premise that the Ringling Brothers Circus if finally feeling the pressure to cease forcing those elephants into doing those STUPID HUMAN AMUSING TRICKS - Ditto, with Sea World and all other side show acts like those.   
Sure, they are fantastic money makers but at what cost to the abuse that the animal/mammal must endure to provide entertainment for us paying public?


I used to make fantastic money team roping --- made quite a bit on any given weekend; loading up with the other college girls and off we'd go - pulling our meager funds together and sleeping in our trucks & trailers just to go compete...lots of fond memories. But all it took was one horrid pile up and having to put my horse down to bring my reality back to WTF was I doing this for? 

I'm quite sure that my horse could have lived a long life and been just as 'HAPPY' without that need to do as I directed and could have just died of old age!
Moral of my story; I had learned a real hard life lesson and I'd taken my trusted/lovely horse for granted...to late - can't undo what had happened...but it was totally my fault.

4Ever2 wrote:That's where you and I fall apart...conditioned response isn't the same as a 'HAPPY' spontaneous response.

But, what is? Even in our so-called enlightened world of study, we have only guesses as to what is making the animal happy. Each generation gives us another reason to question that...elephants, chimpanzees and now dolphins and orcas.

We are still in the business of making anthropomorphic judgments, I guess. That's the way of life, I suppose. What we accept today, tomorrow we find that was really bad!

Original Quill wrote:

4Ever2 wrote:That's where you and I fall apart...conditioned response isn't the same as a 'HAPPY' spontaneous response.

But, what is?  Even in our so-called enlightened world of study, we have only guesses as to what is making the animal happy.  Each generation gives us another reason to question that...elephants, chimpanzees and now dolphins and orcas.

We are still in the business of making anthropomorphic judgments, I guess.  That's the way of life, I suppose.  What we accept today, tomorrow we find that was really bad!

Absolutely...and at sometime ~~~ 100 years from now, I hope to be able to drop back in and see just where our technology has taken mankind and especially with the studies of our fellow species.

My 'experience' with 30+ years of working with herd animals has proven to me that their 'happiness' and my assuming what makes & provides them with 'happiness' wasn't in the same ball park.  You express your feelings about this rational from what you've observed --- fair enough.
We agree to disagree about a 'happy horse'
But it's been an interesting discussion and quite rewarding as well --- and not a bitter/curse word thrown out like a grenade --- how wonderful is that???

Actually, there's quite a few of us who just want to discuss, test our own ideas, and test your ideas, without being rude or offensive.

It's an art...to differ without being disagreeable. But why am I telling you this? You have that art, as well.

Original Quill wrote:Actually, there's quite a few of us who just want to discuss, test our own ideas, and test your ideas, without being rude or offensive.

It's an art...to differ without being disagreeable.  But why am I telling you this?  You have that art, as well.

LOL...often as in our daily life; it's wading through the minutia to find the moments of éclairissement, that make the vitriolic spewing humans nothing more then an enjoyable toy to  

And I'll admit it --- it does have it's amusing moments

Two happy horses, the pair of you!
Good Neiggggghhhh- bours!

See what I did?

eddie wrote:Two happy horses, the pair of you!
Good Neiggggghhhh- bours!

See what I did?

 

I'm chomping at the bit

eddie wrote:I'm chomping at the bit

more like foaming at the mouth....

Lord Foul wrote:

eddie wrote:I'm chomping at the bit

more like foaming at the mouth....

Anything to spur you on

Rein it in, guys.

eddie wrote:I'm chomping at the bit

Lord Foul wrote:more like foaming at the mouth....

Anything to spur you on

by Original Quill on Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:05 am
Rein it in, guys.

Impossible---we're all to accustomed to making a 'horses ass' out of any discussion!

Original Quill wrote:Rein it in, guys.

neigh

Let's stick to the mane topic.....

eddie wrote:Let's stick to the mane topic.....

Whoa, party POOPER...that's just LAME...

I knew you'd trot that one out!

This thread has become so clod hopping!

Don't sit on the fence about it

Oh canter off!

I would 'shoe' you all away. shoo.

I will not let you 'saddle' me with it if it 'crops' up again and you get the 'bit' between your teeth, close the 'gait' on the way out.

Are you trying to 'curry' favor with us?

Stormee wrote:I would 'shoe' you all away.  shoo.

I will not let you 'saddle' me with it if it 'crops' up again and you get the 'bit' between your teeth, close the 'gait' on the way out.

WOWSERS...don't leave any Road Apples laying around --- cause Stormee's arrived and herded those filly's and gelding's into the trailer and it's move'n on out time!
Well, done group and not a sorry old buck'n crazy horse in the entire group!  LOL