Grand National 2016 - - WARNING: contains graphic pictures and videos of injured and dying horses

Anyone having a gamble today?

I'm going with these two this year:

Le Reve ** Strong stayer and has recaptured form since being fitted with blinkers; acts on any going. (40/1)

Silviniaco Conti **** Has class and although sometimes quirky must come into the reckoning; solid jumper. (12/1)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/2016/04/09/grand-national-2016-tips-expert-guide-to-aintree-runners-latest/

feelthelove wrote:Anyone having a gamble today?

I'm going with these two this year:

Le Reve ** Strong stayer and has recaptured form since being fitted with blinkers; acts on any going. (40/1)

Silviniaco Conti **** Has class and although sometimes quirky must come into the reckoning; solid jumper. (12/1)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/2016/04/09/grand-national-2016-tips-expert-guide-to-aintree-runners-latest/

I'm pretty much against horse racing. It's cruel.

Seconded HT:

Grand National 2016 At Aintree Racecourse Leads To The Deaths Of Gullinbursti And Minella Reception

Both horses fell at the notorious Becher’s Brook fence on Friday.

Two more horses have died at the Grand National meeting, making this week’s Aintree festival the deadliest in five years.

Both Gullinbursti and Minella Reception were fatally injured after falling at the notorious Becher’s Brook fence on Friday.

They become the third and fourth equines to die at this year’s festival after two horses died on opening day on Thursday.


Ten-year-old Gullinbursti, who missed last season due to a tendon injury, somersaulted and landed on his neck during the Topham Chase.

Gullinbursti had to be humanely euthanised after his fall, Channel 4 said.
Minella Reception suffered a similar fall and was given veterinary attention but had to be put down.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grand-national-2016-aintree-racecourse-third-horse-death-gullinbursti_uk_5707e2ffe4b07355d7732ffb

How can you love animals and bet on this?

I don't agree.  Horses fall into the category of animals that form a human bond.  Within that bond, the animals find great fulfillment in perfecting the 'games' that humans invent for them.  

Five gaited horses are an excellent example; the animals seem to love perfecting the two acquired (non-natural) gaits...the so-called racking gaits.

Racing is a natural, as running is already instinctual with horses, and the competition only seems to make it more fun for them.  One of my daughters had a thoroughbred that she tried to train for jumping.  He seemed to love to play.  He was perfect for the track as he took to the competition and the strenuous activity of racing, and he seemed to understand innately the meaning of rivalry...and loved it.

Sorry Quill, but that is rubbish, they are made to do it and whipped every step of the way and are put over artifical courses that are designed to stop some of the, close together so they can't side-step trouble.  In ordinary riding out, no horses die like this.  There has also been lately top stables caught doping the horses. 

All this is particulary applicable to the Grand National Meet, that has very large and wide jumps.

Oh, don't get me started on racing.

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

It's utterly horrendous HT, OH has the occasional bet but he knows exactly what I feel about it.   Those horses don't do it because they want to, and they suffer because of it.

You tell me what's fucking natural about this?

sassy wrote:It's utterly horrendous HT, OH has the occasional bet but he knows exactly what I feel about it.   Those horses don't do it because they want to, and they suffer because of it.

Horses love to please humans. They are brave, gallant and will, literally, race until they die for us. To abuse this trust, and expect them to do this for our entertainment is wrong, wrong, wrong.

100% Right!

So, you watch those videos and tell me you still think horse racing is...'OK'

I don't think it is ok at all, I think it's awful.   Same kind of thing goes on in greyhound racing.

I worked in a betting shop years ago, when it wasn't all tills and all the settling was done by calculator and brain matter.

I never really liked racing much, but I do admit, I used to put on the odd bet.

I also wear leather lol so can't really preach in about animal rights.
If you both feel that strongly, why do you eat meat?

Ffeelthelove wrote:Anyone having a gamble today?

I'm going with these two this year:

Le Reve ** Strong stayer and has recaptured form since being fitted with blinkers; acts on any going. (40/1)

Silviniaco Conti **** Has class and although sometimes quirky must come into the reckoning; solid jumper. (12/1)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/2016/04/09/grand-national-2016-tips-expert-guide-to-aintree-runners-latest/

How did you do? Son picked the winner he is very pleased with himself lol

I hate the Grand National too.....it's too dangerous for the horses imo, which is why there are often falls and the horse has to be put down.

edit..and .this year is no exception.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/grand-national-2016-minella-reception-7721445

I don't bet on it - I think it's cruel, and money shouldn't be made on cruelty.

So why are people still eating meat and drinking milk if they think horse racing is cruel?
Aren't animals reared for meat, treated badly?

eddie wrote:So why are people still eating meat and drinking milk if they think horse racing is cruel?
Aren't animals reared for meat, treated badly?

Hmmm...good question.
I think we all have to draw our own boundaries, I would never bet on the Grand National or go to a Boxing match or a bullfight, but I do eat meat...(not much but I eat it)
I wont wear fur and would never buy ivory or tinned fish that isn't dolphin friendly..... but I wear leather.

A boxing match is between two consenting humans though Syl.

I like boxing.

eddie wrote:A boxing match is between two consenting humans though Syl.

I like boxing.

I know...we had a thread.
I find it almost as barbaric as dog fighting though.

eddie wrote:A boxing match is between two consenting humans though Syl.

I like boxing.

If you like boxing, you'll love the open gun laws in the US. There's consent...open season on each other.

Boxing, as with any intentional sport to damage another human being, is hideous. Sure its consensual, but consent to do what? Kill each other?

And this cage fighting and kick boxing. Why can't they just take a gun in there and determine the winner that way? Why fook around?

eddie wrote:So why are people still eating meat and drinking milk if they think horse racing is cruel?
Aren't animals reared for meat, treated badly?

They are. 
Also what about all the products tested on animals?

Miffs2 wrote:

eddie wrote:So why are people still eating meat and drinking milk if they think horse racing is cruel?
Aren't animals reared for meat, treated badly?

They are. 
Also what about all the products tested on animals?

Exactly. If you're that keen on aninal rights you have to look at everything you buy.
I think the Palmolive brand test on aninals and they make thousands of products.

well IF they wern't absolute hypocrites

MOST veggies/vegans would die the first time they got a bad infection/needed surgery/

they would have NO pain releif in the little surgery that they could have /none in child birth and non at the dentist.....

they would never have antibiotics
and anything more advanced would be right off their scale....


they could never have any vaccines

no anti malarials if going abroad

TECHNICALLY speaking they could never use artificial fibers
and even natural fibers like cotton would be off the list

all the plastics for their shoes (cant use leather) wuld be forbidden to them

they would have to go about naked, unshod and prey to every disease and distemper going.

they would have no furniture (plastics and wood)

or even a house......again plastics and wood primarily

certainly not drive or even own a bike...

This topic seems to have drifted away from the Grand National ...

Original Quill wrote:I don't agree.  Horses fall into the category of animals that form a human bond.  Within that bond, the animals find great fulfillment in perfecting the 'games' that humans invent for them.  And that mentality is what kept the Ringling Bros & Barnum Bailey Circus forcing those noble beasts {lions/tigers/bears/horses & elephants} training and doing those gross - stupid human tricks for years!!!  Yes, indeed-that's how they justified the cruel methods used to train!  
Five gaited horses are an excellent example; the animals seem to love perfecting the two acquired (non-natural) gaits...the so-called racking gaits.  
Racing is a natural, as running is already instinctual with horses, and the competition only seems to make it more fun for them.  One of my daughters had a thoroughbred that she tried to train for jumping.  He seemed to love to play.  He was perfect for the track as he took to the competition and the strenuous activity of racing, and he seemed to understand innately the meaning of rivalry...and loved it.

Having a 'HUMAN' place our emotional ideology upon what will/would/could make a animal "seem to love"...is just absurd - blatantly and absolutely - absurd.

Unless you understand the daily work ethic - the requirement for conditioning - the way a horse will react to ANY GIVEN stimuli --- then what you do is JUSTIFY; making a human emotional justification as to what was done - what is done - what perpetrates the sport as validity for our HUMAN ENJOYMENT!  

BTW...keeping a 5 gaited trained horse is as foolish as thinking that, 'if I only ride it on weekends - the occasional spring morning'...then I'm not being harsh or a cruel equine owner!' 

Any horse, included Gaited Horses, must be athletes to accomplish many of the tasks their owners request of them. Most people realize this when they are asking their horses to do endurance riding or cross country jumping, but do not equate the need to be an athlete with the "regular Horse". This is why many owners fail to see the need for conditioning is in the horse maintained for pleasure. The "couch potato" of the equine world is the way a friend of mine would refer to these equines. The term couch potato does in fact apply to many of the horses maintained across our nation. They are stabled or pastured for 5 days of the week and ridden one or two days of the week. Even the horse that is ridden more frequently than twice a week, has to have conditioning to perform at their optimum.

There are articles in abundance that address the basic conditioning for a fit equine, so we will not go into those here. For purposes of the information provided, we will assume that your horse is in fit condition. If he is not you should get him that way or the suggestions will not have as good an effect. Avoid doing anything that will hurt your horse mentally or physically, make sure they are ready for what you ask of them.
If you get your horse in shape before you request that he gait under saddle, he is much less likely to start pacing  or trotting. Spend a couple of months getting your horse "legged up" and in condition before you start requiring that he gait consistently under saddle. Remember that the younger horses, with undeveloped muscles will be more likely to pace or miss gait. Make sure that the horses is physically mature before you put him to work. It would also be a good idea if you can RECOGNIZE gait when the horse performs it.  You must be ready to encourage the horse to continue performing gait. 
WORKING WITH GAITED HORSES  by Lee Ziegler is a MUST read!

No...we humans have made all sorts of really 'LAME' reasons for treating our pack animals as though we knew what 'makes them happy'; and becoming a side show circus or a ridden show piece for our human entertainment is NOT WHAT HORSES LOVE TO LIVE! 

well as to that.....

its unnecessary, doesnt actually acheive anything, and produces nothing.

and results in te regular deaths of horses.....


of course if horse racing was banned 1000's of horses would be destroyed within weeks.....

10's 1000's of ordinary folks (stable hands etc) thrown out of work (to be labeled scroungers)
the rural economy further destroyed (of course we KNOW thats actually the aim of these (mainly) townie anti types)

and a hole of about 100 million plus a year lost to the economy


add to that that this would then be chalked up as a victory and further legitimise the over entitled, self entitled self opinionated

"I dont do it so I dont see why YOU should" brigade and we can see where its going cant we

pretty soon the only hobby allowed will be manhole cover collecting as approved by comrade corbyn

The Grand National is too difficult for the horses - it's not like the usual kind of race. It's deliberately made difficult for the horses in order to entertain the people who are watching, and so the people who are placing bets get a kick out of seeing horses struggling with those jumps. Do they have no shame when they hear that a horse has been killed? I guess not because they place bets the following year.

LordFoul stated >>>
its unnecessary, doesnt actually acheive anything, and produces nothing.
and results in te regular deaths of horses.....

of course if horse racing was banned 1000's of horses would be destroyed within weeks.....

Oh...if you only knew the numbers of horses sent off to slaughter each week - the number of breeders that over produce their yearling breeding program in hopes of finding that #1 perfected equine that will make him/her famous...far more then the 1000's that you THINK. 

In the United States, horses slaughtered for meat come mainly from auctions, where they are sold by private sellers and breeders.
According to a study commissioned by USDA/APHIS when horses were still being slaughtered in the U.S., 92% of American horses being slaughtered at US plants studied were in good health. Rarely are these horses sick and injured, as those horses have trouble withstanding the long, crowded transportation conditions to slaughter plants. Most horses bound for slaughter are brought to the slaughterhouses by contract buyers, also known as kill buyers, who drive around the country buying horses at auction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter 

Every where in my state there is an auction that happens weekly - just for equine sales. 
Sure there was a FDA ban {circa 1970} for all dog food processors to cease using horse meat but that doesn't stop all of the locals - or the meat packers that process horse meat from shipping it over seas.

Horse Meat Slaughter Processors, total tons shipped in 2009
Mexico = 79,000 / Argentina = 57,000 USA = 25,000 /
 Australia = 24,000 / Canada = 21,000  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter

So over breeding, lack of breeders control, and now with the most recent pasture fires/drought condition's and continue stress from over grazing the horse industry is going to struggle.  Equine breeders are often just as bad as the most media covered 'Puppy Mills/Feline Hoarders' that we all read about.

Same in the greyhound racing business, they kill THOUSANDS and I do mean THOUSANDS of puppies every year, and they are not put down by a vet, they are shot and buried in grounds the breeders own, hoping nobody finds out about it.

4EVER2 wrote:

LordFoul stated >>>
its unnecessary, doesnt actually acheive anything, and produces nothing.
and results in te regular deaths of horses.....

of course if horse racing was banned 1000's of horses would be destroyed within weeks.....

Oh...if you only knew the numbers of horses sent off to slaughter each week - the number of breeders that over produce their yearling breeding program in hopes of finding that #1 perfected equine that will make him/her famous...far more then the 1000's that you THINK. 

In the United States, horses slaughtered for meat come mainly from auctions, where they are sold by private sellers and breeders.
According to a study commissioned by USDA/APHIS when horses were still being slaughtered in the U.S., 92% of American horses being slaughtered at US plants studied were in good health. Rarely are these horses sick and injured, as those horses have trouble withstanding the long, crowded transportation conditions to slaughter plants. Most horses bound for slaughter are brought to the slaughterhouses by contract buyers, also known as kill buyers, who drive around the country buying horses at auction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter 

Every where in my state there is an auction that happens weekly - just for equine sales. 
Sure there was a FDA ban {circa 1970} for all dog food processors to cease using horse meat but that doesn't stop all of the locals - or the meat packers that process horse meat from shipping it over seas.

Horse Meat Slaughter Processors, total tons shipped in 2009
Mexico = 79,000 / Argentina = 57,000 USA = 25,000 /
 Australia = 24,000 / Canada = 21,000  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter

So over breeding, lack of breeders control, and now with the most recent pasture fires/drought condition's and continue stress from over grazing the horse industry is going to struggle.  Equine breeders are often just as bad as the most media covered 'Puppy Mills/Feline Hoarders' that we all read about.

anyone for a tesco's "beef" pie

horse meat

AKA "tesco beef"

Lord Foul wrote:pretty soon the only hobby allowed will be manhole cover collecting as approved by comrade corbyn

   Not when there's been such a marvelous option around for generations:

First - Pick your favorite STEED > > >




Then when the bar is dropped or the gates swing
open ... LEAP out of the starting position like
you've been hit in the arse with a electrode jammed
up the wazoooo ~~~


But do try hard to not falter or fall --- getting impaled
by the riders coming up behind you could be very hazardous
to one's health and well being!

Bring the entire family - grandparents vs parents
girls vs boys - split them up into age/weight groups
and watch the fun!   


And in foul weather...these events can be held
indoors...so no one is sent home without having
had their day of running with the horses!

noooo..4ever....that means having FUN....


strictly not allowed

Lord Foul wrote:well   IF they wern't absolute hypocrites

MOST veggies/vegans would die the first time they got a bad infection/needed surgery/

they would have NO pain releif in the little surgery that they could have /none in child birth and non at the dentist.....

they would never have antibiotics
and anything more advanced would be right off their scale....


they could never have any vaccines

no anti malarials if going abroad

TECHNICALLY speaking they could never use artificial fibers
and even natural fibers like cotton would be off the list

all the plastics for their shoes (cant use leather) wuld be forbidden to them

they would have to go about naked, unshod and prey to every disease and distemper going.

they would have no furniture (plastics and wood)

or even a house......again plastics and wood primarily

certainly not drive or even own a bike...

You're confusing vegetarians and vegans with hypocrites.

Did you read the thread?

Sorry eddie...apart from"medical need" and maybe just plain "dont like the taste"

anyone being a veggie/vega for so called ethical reasons is a hypocrite IF they do virtually ANYTHING the rest of the world do....

Lord Foul wrote:Sorry eddie...apart from"medical need"  and maybe just plain "dont like the taste"

anyone being a veggie/vega for so called ethical reasons is a hypocrite IF they do virtually ANYTHING the rest of the world do....

What about meat-eaters who protest anout animal rights and then eat (supermarket ergo inhumanely killed) meat?

eddie wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:Sorry eddie...apart from"medical need"  and maybe just plain "dont like the taste"

anyone being a veggie/vega for so called ethical reasons is a hypocrite IF they do virtually ANYTHING the rest of the world do....

What about meat-eaters who protest anout animal rights and then eat (supermarket ergo inhumanely killed) meat?

hang em

Well I don't really want to hang them....not for that reason anyway.

You've got a downer on vegetarians and I'm not sure why, but many aren't hypocrites.

eddie wrote:Well I don't really want to hang them....not for that reason anyway.

You've got a downer on vegetarians and I'm not sure why, but many aren't hypocrites.

IG you use/wear ANY artificial fiber/plastic etc...you are promoting destruction of the environment....and hence animals...
If you take almost ANY medication you are implicityly condoning animal research (and hence what veggies/vegans term animal abuse)
IF you use natural fiber like wool...thats a farmed product ...with all that implies
if you use a natural fiber like cotton you are promoting destruction of environment for wild animals, the use of pesticieds etc
even if you ride a bike you are contributing (rubber for tyres, metal production, oil plastics)

in fact IF you are A TRUE veggie/vegan for ETHICAL reasons...they practically speaking...you should go into a field somewhere lay down and die....anything else and you are , by STRICT definition , being hypocritical....

purely becasue ...NO MATTER WHAT you do....YOU , as a human , are implicitly involved in activities which kill, maim and even extinctify animals....

And therein lies my "truth" theory. Nothing seems "true" it's all "ifs buts and maybes" and most people lie to themselves.

Now, as to pets.

Vicious? Cruel? Inhumane?

Raggamuffin wrote:The Grand National is too difficult for the horses - it's not like the usual kind of race. It's deliberately made difficult for the horses in order to entertain the people who are watching, and so the people who are placing bets get a kick out of seeing horses struggling with those jumps. Do they have no shame when they hear that a horse has been killed? I guess not because they place bets the following year.

I AGREE...

THERE IS something about the Grand National -- the difficulty of the course, its hardness, the amount of money that is laid out on it, the way the jockeys push their mounts -- that  produces far higher numbers of accidents and fatalities, when compared with other types of equestrian sports..

THERE ARE good cases to be made for ceasing the more extreme animal "sports" - such as cross-country steeplechases like the Grand National, Spanish/Mexican bullfights, fox hunting and coursing - without going all the way and wiping out whole industries.

IN AUSTRALIA alone, there are some 250,000 people employed across all facets of the equestrian-based industries (even if half of them are in low paid and crappy jobs), and the numbers will be higher in the USA, Britain and France, lower in New Zealand, Ireland, and maybe Argentina..

IF THE more extreme animal lib'/Vegan fringe had their way and got rid of most of the world's horses, that would mean more than a million extra unemployed -- most of whom would never find jobs elsewhere...

eddie wrote:
And therein lies my "truth" theory. Nothing seems "true" it's all "ifs buts and maybes" and most people lie to themselves.

YOU ACTUALLY mean hypothesis there, eddie -- not "theory"...


A PERFECT example of you not properly understanding the very meaning of certain critical terms..

eddie wrote:
Well I don't really want to hang them....not for that reason anyway.

You've got a downer on vegetarians and I'm not sure why, but many aren't hypocrites.

ALL Vegans are hypocrites though, eddie...

THAT'S "part and parcel" of their very self definition..
AND one of the defining characteristics of genuine 'veganism' as a belief system.

AND THAT is an undeniable and uncontestable, universal "truth" ! 

sassy wrote:
Same in the greyhound racing business, they kill THOUSANDS and I do mean THOUSANDS of puppies every year, and they are not put down by a vet, they are shot and buried in grounds the breeders own, hoping nobody finds out about it.

YEP...
AND that greyhound racing isn't just popular in the UK --  the USA, Australia, Hong Kong all have large scale racing scenes..

AND the sport has always had that dark side -- worldwide, there must be hundreds of thousands of unsuitable and unwanted dogs being put down annualy from poorly run and cruel "puppy farm" style breeding operations run by individuals with no love or regard for their animals, but only an eye on how yo make quick and easy money -- as well as the thousands of doggies euthanised simply because they don't run fast enough.

AND LET'S NOT forget about the 'blooding' and 'coursing' still be used by many an unscrupable trainer..            

How about horses that have unseated their riders?

They could stop running and walk off the course, but they don't, they keep running and jumping because they appear to like it! Just thought i'd mention that.