£155 a week may be an idea whose time has come

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:01 am

First topic message reminder :

Introducing a basic income guarantee would be costly, but it could be the answer to a lot of different problems

The “basic income guarantee” - under which everyone would receive a certain minimum level of income from the state, regardless of other earnings - is one of those ideas that attracts support from both left and right, and for good reason; it’s both a neat answer to the potentially devastating problem of “technological unemployment” and it theoretically deals with many of the perverse, anti-work incentives created by modern welfare systems.

To date the idea has been confined largely to an eclectic mix of utopian and libertarian thinkers. Certainly, it has been easy to dismiss the concept as costly, unrealistic idealism. But now it seems that Finland might actually introduce one, set at a level of €800 (£576) per citizen a month, or just enough to live on.

But hold on, you might say. If everyone gets €800 a month, won’t a significant minority stop working altogether? Well, perhaps, but in a country where unemployment already tops 10pc, it scarcely seems to matter. It’s unlikely to be much higher.
In any case, the hope is that it would have the opposite effect, by encouraging the unemployed to work part time to top up the basic income guarantee.

What about the costs? This is certainly where it gets tricky. A quick back of the envelope calculation reveals that paying the equivalent of the UK state pension – a little bit more than the basic income proposed in Finland - to all over 16-year-olds in Britain would have cost £413.6bn last year, or around 55pc of all UK Government managed expenditure.

Cont: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/12037623/Paying-all-UK-citizens-155-a-week-may-be-an-idea-whose-time-has-come.html

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:53 pm

It would be madness. There would be people getting £155 the second they turned 18. Where is their incentive to get a job?

People wanting to sell their house would think - oooh, everyone gets that money so I'll put the price up straightaway. Ditto for landlords.

Those who currently pay tax may well cut their hours so they don't pay any tax at all. Who will make up the shortfall?

by Original Quill Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:It would be madness. There would be people getting £155 the second they turned 18. Where is their incentive to get a job?

People wanting to sell their house would think - oooh, everyone gets that money so I'll put the price up straightaway. Ditto for landlords.

Those who currently pay tax may well cut their hours so they don't pay any tax at all. Who will make up the shortfall?

You sound a bit like a socialist with all your social-psychological theory.

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It would be madness. There would be people getting £155 the second they turned 18. Where is their incentive to get a job?

People wanting to sell their house would think - oooh, everyone gets that money so I'll put the price up straightaway. Ditto for landlords.

Those who currently pay tax may well cut their hours so they don't pay any tax at all. Who will make up the shortfall?

You sound a bit like a socialist with all your social-psychological theory.

More like a realist. Laughing

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:08 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:uhm....

firstly the only people that could possibly object to this are those of a "mean minded" approach.
the problem being, DESPITE the whingeing of the supposedly hard working (actually tory spivs and shills) there are insufficient jobs to go round...and there will be many fewer in the near future "technological redundancy".

since these corporations that "benefit from replacing staff with machines" do so on a massive scale it is only right that they should pay a surcharge on tax to support those who will no longer have a job

I mean you fools...how do you think utopia is going to work otherwise????

I would suggest that since everyone would benefit then the naysayers should shut the fuck up....they will get it as well so.......

as to how to pay for it

all benefits, except certain "top up" benefits will cease, thus not only saving the actual cost of the benefit but the INFRASTRUCTURE required will dissapear, the offices, staff costs etc. there will be no need for expensive investigators, since there will be no system to cheat...

on top of that a tax should be levied on the technology...so every "device" mobile phone, tablet, pc etc should have another £20 minimum tax on it, all "contracts for such should carry another 10~% VAT every text should carry a 1 or 2p tax and every kb of data on mobile systems likewise. Every game whether played mobile or home system should pay 1 or 2p per KB of data during play and a £10 tax on purchase.

almost every household "white goods" has a totally unnecessary "smart chip these days, even ruddy kettles, under the (false) claim that it makes them "energy efficient"

these should carry a tax penalty...

then of course we could start to actually make the criminals that avoid/evade our taxes by various loop holes pay their propper share,,,,

we could then afford to do this quite easily

Well I object to it, and yet I would benefit from it myself, so I don't know why you think only "mean minded" people would object.

Do you really think that certain people wouldn't demand more? Disabled people, for example, would say - hang on, I should get more than those who used to be on JSA, so I should get much more than £155 per week. People with young children will say they get much more as well. Those on low pay will say it's not fair that people earning loads should get extra dosh.

If you read what i suggested indeed "certain people" WOULD get more, I would keep some of the "top up" benefits...like child benefit (for the first 3 only) and the DLA since this is for extra costs associated with being disabled....

Nobody is going to agree to pay more for their gadgets, so get real.

tough, they wouldnt have a choice...if they want an equitable society then they need to realise that they cant have everything for nothing
face it whats £10 on the cost of a mobile phone

or 1 or 2p on a text, and yet it would raise billions

you want to benefit from all this "tech, yet dont want to pay for the inevitable outcome of low employment levels,

No, the higher tax payers would have to pay for it, and they won't take kindly to paying even more tax. If they don't have to pay more tax, there will be cuts in services to pay for it.

Loads of people wouldn't bother to work even if they could - they'll just sit there and take the dosh. House prices might rise because everyone would get more money.

I think you might be surprised....atm its difficult to do "a bit of work"...what with signing on and off... and the evil attitude of jobcenter staff....
under this system anyone could just be free to take whatever work was going....also as a corolary to this you could remove the minimum wage requirement
and leave it to employees to negotiate their own rate with any would be employer.....

that way..if an employer doesnt offer what a would be employee considers reasonable he isnt forced to take that work....maybe someone else will...but thats called "market forces"

Maybe, the old "hireing post" in the market place will make a comeback for those "day jobs"

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:11 pm

Well you could wave goodbye to all those weekend jobs that young people do. None of them are going to bother if they can get £155 for doing nothing. Goodbye weekend opening for shops!

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:15 pm

Let's just say that those on JSA would get £155 instead, out of which they have to pay for their housing and living expenses. The trouble is that the landlords will put up rent because everyone is getting more money and can afford to pay more. What happens then?

by Major Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:23 pm

I have read the comments and cannot add anything at this stage but it is a interesting thought as long as they don't stuff me for more tax.

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:24 pm

well , unless something like this is brought in, paid for by a tax on tech and on firms that benefit from tech the I'd love to see raggas ideas as to how to solve the problem that there are not enough jobs to go round. Anyone who beleives to the contrary is round the bend

whar are we going to do ...employe 1 million dustmen....all with degrees at that

5 million hair dressers???

a million road sweepers...

except that in 10 years time even those jobs may well be done by robot devices....

so another 10 million bank clerks perhaps???

erm ....nope....

we have atm a population around 29 million working people, by the end of 2025 I would suggest that that number will be down by at least 1/3rd as t3ch makes more and more redundant.....

what do you suggest ragga....

should we cull a few.....?

or should we start making "tech" pay its way....

via taxes on firms and on the tech itself?

you do realise dont you, inevitably the end result will HAVE to be that the govt (i.e the people) own ALL manufacturing etc, and that aside from a small "cash allowance for odds and ends people wont get money...they will just go and get what they need/want from the warehouse.....

all homes and such will HAVE to be "state owned" and when you reach "the age of independance...you get a home...provided by "the state"

its inevitable that this will have to happen...it might get messy along the way...but its comming

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:25 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Well you could wave goodbye to all those weekend jobs that young people do. None of them are going to bother if they can get £155 for doing nothing. Goodbye weekend opening for shops!

some might want to have a bit more

the shop owners would have to make it "worth their while"

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Let's just say that those on JSA would get £155 instead, out of which they have to pay for their housing and living expenses. The trouble is that the landlords will put up rent because everyone is getting more money and can afford to pay more. What happens then?

dont allow it...impose " fair rent control"

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Well you could wave goodbye to all those weekend jobs that young people do. None of them are going to bother if they can get £155 for doing nothing. Goodbye weekend opening for shops!

you mean like all those saturday till girls that have no jobs now in the supermarkets, which have installed self serve tills????

also ragga thats nonsense. most shop staff are on 5 out of seven contracts

if you are talking about the very few, weekend only student jobs they are dissapearing fastest of all....

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:33 pm

Lord Foul wrote:well , unless something like this is brought in, paid for by a tax on tech and on firms that benefit from tech the I'd love to see raggas ideas as to how to solve the problem that there are not enough jobs to go round. Anyone who beleives to the contrary is round the bend

whar are we going to do ...employe 1 million dustmen....all with degrees at that

5 million hair dressers???

a million road sweepers...

except that in 10 years time even those jobs may well be done by robot devices....

so another 10 million bank clerks perhaps???

erm ....nope....

we have atm a population around 29 million working people, by the end of 2025 I would suggest that that number will be down by at least 1/3rd as t3ch makes more and more redundant.....

what do you suggest ragga....

should we cull a few.....?

or should we start making "tech" pay its way....

via taxes on firms and on the tech itself?

you do realise dont you, inevitably the end result will HAVE to be that the govt (i.e the people) own ALL manufacturing etc, and that aside from a small "cash allowance for odds and ends people wont get money...they will just go and get what they need/want from the warehouse.....

all homes and such will HAVE to be "state owned" and when you reach "the age of independance...you get a home...provided by "the state"

its inevitable that this will have to happen...it might get messy along the way...but its comming

If there aren't enough jobs to go round, why are we allowing immigrants in?

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:35 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Well you could wave goodbye to all those weekend jobs that young people do. None of them are going to bother if they can get £155 for doing nothing. Goodbye weekend opening for shops!

you mean like all those saturday till girls that have no jobs now in the supermarkets, which have installed self serve tills????

also ragga thats nonsense. most shop staff are on 5 out of seven contracts

if you are talking about the very few, weekend only student jobs they are dissapearing fastest of all....

They're not disappearing. Loads of shops employ weekend staff. I bet you'd moan like hell if they had to shut because they can't get the staff.

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:36 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Let's just say that those on JSA would get £155 instead, out of which they have to pay for their housing and living expenses. The trouble is that the landlords will put up rent because everyone is getting more money and can afford to pay more. What happens then?

dont allow it...impose " fair rent control"

They could do that now without all this nonsense, then there would be no need for all these daft tax credits.

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:37 pm

ah well...thats another story innit...

the last desperate throes of the 1%

a mad dash to make as much as possible before they are rendered pointless by the incomming tech

however the number of jobless exceeds the number of jobs by at least 7 to 1

thats 7 people for every available job, and that is going to increase greatly over the comming years....

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:41 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

you mean like all those saturday till girls that have no jobs now in the supermarkets, which have installed self serve tills????

also ragga thats nonsense. most shop staff are on 5 out of seven contracts

if you are talking about the very few, weekend only student jobs they are dissapearing fastest of all....

They're not disappearing. Loads of shops employ weekend staff. I bet you'd moan like hell if they had to shut because they can't get the staff.

the supermarkets have cut saturday staff by a large amount....

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

you mean like all those saturday till girls that have no jobs now in the supermarkets, which have installed self serve tills????

also ragga thats nonsense. most shop staff are on 5 out of seven contracts

if you are talking about the very few, weekend only student jobs they are dissapearing fastest of all....

They're not disappearing. Loads of shops employ weekend staff. I bet you'd moan like hell if they had to shut because they can't get the staff.

not really ragga...I'm old enough to remember when you had to PLAN your shopping

because the shops shut at 12 on saturday and were NOT open on sunday....

and as I have aready said...MOST shop staff are on 5.7 contracts antway ...so.....

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:47 pm

Lord Foul wrote:ah well...thats another story innit...

the last desperate throes of the 1%

a mad dash to make as much as possible before they are rendered pointless by the incomming tech

however the number of jobless exceeds the number of jobs by at least 7 to 1

thats 7 people for every available job, and that is going to increase greatly over the comming years....

So once again, why do allow people into the country if there are so few jobs?

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:49 pm

I just think the whole concept encourages people to think they can get something for nothing. Obviously I'd love to get £155 a week for doing absolutely nothing, but it just seems wrong.

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:50 pm

It also assumes that things will never get better. If they do get better do they suddenly tell people they can't have the money after all?

Why would someone earning £40,000 a year need another £155 a week? I don't get it.

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:10 pm

Lord Foul wrote:stalin was an atheist
pol pot likewise

dunno if mao was, but i suspect so

Which proves my point on your complete ignorance.

http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/the-fallacy-of-the-20th-century-atheist-regimes-898.html

Like I say do not make idiotic accusations onto me you cannot back up
Now unless you can back up this idiotic claim radicalism, I suggest you man up and apologise

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:12 pm

firstly things are NOT going to get better...

jobs are being eaten by tech at an ever increasing rate...your job ragga...whatever it is can likely be done cheaper and better by a robot/computer

the payment is a minimum payment guarantee to help stave off the fact that soon if not right now there are NOT enough jobs to go round....

and..as I say go look up the ONS stats...

7 people for every job...the lie is made up that we need the immigrants....and it IS a lie....

its to cover the arse of incompetant and greedy govt....

the idea of EVERYONE getting it is simple...it stops whingeing whineing folks from complaining that some one is getting something they dont....

and actually is probably quite just...

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:14 pm

Richard The Lionheart wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:stalin was an atheist
pol pot likewise

dunno if mao was, but i suspect so

Which proves my point on your complete ignorance.

http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/the-fallacy-of-the-20th-century-atheist-regimes-898.html

Like I say do not make idiotic accusations onto me you cannot back up
Now unless you can back up this idiotic claim radicalism, I suggest you man up and apologise

take a chill pill and realise when folks are taking the piss you miserable fart

strewth ...i recon you are tring to pinch my title as the forum grump.......

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:17 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Which proves my point on your complete ignorance.

http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/the-fallacy-of-the-20th-century-atheist-regimes-898.html

Like I say do not make idiotic accusations onto me you cannot back up
Now unless you can back up this idiotic claim radicalism, I suggest you man up and apologise

take a chill pill and realise when folks are taking the piss you miserable fart

strewth ...i recon you are tring to pinch my title as the forum grump.......

For one I do not find it funny and sik and tired of the crap people claim of others here, as I am sure you hated being called a Nazi did you not?
So not trying to pinch anything, I am sick of the regressive support for bad ideologies and I see this as nothing more than aiding groups that are at odds with our way of life.
To then have you claim my athiesm is some way radical is to me an insult, when you know my views better than any.
So no I do not find it in any shape or form piss take

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:18 pm

Richard The Lionheart wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:stalin was an atheist
pol pot likewise

dunno if mao was, but i suspect so

Which proves my point on your complete ignorance.

http://infidels.org/kiosk/article/the-fallacy-of-the-20th-century-atheist-regimes-898.html

Like I say do not make idiotic accusations onto me you cannot back up
Now unless you can back up this idiotic claim radicalism, I suggest you man up and apologise

read that article...looks to me like an atheist excuse for atheist failings...
in other words...well they WOULD say that , wouldnt they?

> Razz

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:20 pm

Lord Foul wrote:firstly things are NOT going to get better...

jobs are being eaten by tech at an ever increasing rate...your job ragga...whatever it is can likely be done cheaper and better by a robot/computer

the payment is a minimum payment guarantee to help stave off the fact that soon if not right now there are NOT enough jobs to go round....

and..as I say go look up the ONS stats...

7 people for every job...the lie is made up that we need the immigrants....and it IS a lie....

its to cover the arse of incompetant and greedy govt....

the idea of EVERYONE getting it is simple...it stops whingeing whineing folks from complaining that some one is getting something they dont....

and actually is probably quite just...

If I got £155 a week for nothing, I wouldn't need one of my jobs anyway, so the robots are welcome to it. Laughing

It just seems a bit defeatist to say there are no jobs so let's just give people a load of dosh every week.

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:20 pm

Then reason your points.
Do not give me crap excuses

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:23 pm

Lord Foul wrote:

If you read what i suggested indeed "certain people" WOULD get more, I would keep some of the "top up" benefits...like child benefit (for the first 3 only) and the DLA since this is for extra costs associated with being disabled....

What about ESA? People on that get more than those on JSA. However, they wouldn't need more under this £155 a week thing, but that won't stop them moaning and saying they should get more than those who were on JSA.

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:26 pm

Richard The Lionheart wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

take a chill pill and realise when folks are taking the piss you miserable fart

strewth ...i recon you are tring to pinch my title as the forum grump.......

For one I do not find it funny and sik and tired of the crap people claim of others here, as I am sure you hated being called a Nazi did you not?
So not trying to pinch anything, I am sick of the regressive support for bad ideologies and I see this as nothing more than aiding groups that are at odds with our way of life.
To then have you claim my athiesm is some way radical is to me an insult, when you know my views better than any.
So no I do not find it in any shape or form piss take

yeah yeah....go sit in the fridge for an hour and cool off

I know your views perfectly well...and largely agree with many of them...

BUT....

the way to "win" arguments, debates etc....is with rational and sensible arguments...not calling folks cnuts (unless its veya)
and you have to get folk on board...not alienate them didge....

i mean you have markedly changed your views over the last year or so, much of that change has been towards MY POV...
now,,,why would that be....was it becasue i called you names (which I did at times)...or was it because we could find areas to agree on? and that you found my arguments pursuasive??(which you did at times)

which had the greater effect???

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:30 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

If you read what i suggested indeed "certain people" WOULD get more, I would keep some of the "top up" benefits...like child benefit (for the first 3 only) and the DLA since this is for extra costs associated with being disabled....

What about ESA? People on that get more than those on JSA. However, they wouldn't need more under this £155 a week thing, but that won't stop them moaning and saying they should get more than those who were on JSA.

esa is meant for those who need extra support???

do those on esa qualify for dla?

if both got the same AND DLA still existed ...wheres the problem....

and ...besides...unless someone is sufficiently disable to have extra needs, be it carer, vehicle etc with that 155 a week, then I think you could justifiably tell em to STFU,

to institute such a system it seems, would require quite a number of people being told to STFU and stop whingeing Rolling Eyes

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:32 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:

For one I do not find it funny and sik and tired of the crap people claim of others here, as I am sure you hated being called a Nazi did you not?
So not trying to pinch anything, I am sick of the regressive support for bad ideologies and I see this as nothing more than aiding groups that are at odds with our way of life.
To then have you claim my athiesm is some way radical is to me an insult, when you know my views better than any.
So no I do not find it in any shape or form piss take

yeah yeah....go sit in the fridge for an hour and cool off

I know your views perfectly well...and largely agree with many of them...

BUT....

the way to "win" arguments, debates etc....is with rational and sensible arguments...not calling folks cnuts (unless its veya)
and you have to get folk on board...not alienate them didge....

i mean you have markedly changed your views over the last year or so, much of that change has been towards MY POV...
now,,,why would that be....was it becasue i called you names (which I did at times)...or was it because we could find areas to agree on? and that you found my arguments pursuasive??(which you did at times)

which had the greater effect???

Do not patronise me you twerp

I have no need to cool off.

I shall remember the next time you get annoyed over claims to you being stated and how you react.

Some arguments you make are good and some are noyt and hence mutual respect that I do not have to put up with crap from you.

Again reason how non-belief caused the deaths of millions.
You would have to show a belief system, based on athiesm, did not allow for any religious belief system and any religious beliefs by those who instigated this imaginary athiest ideology

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:37 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

What about ESA? People on that get more than those on JSA. However, they wouldn't need more under this £155 a week thing, but that won't stop them moaning and saying they should get more than those who were on JSA.

esa is meant for those who need extra support???

do those on esa qualify for dla?

if both got the same AND DLA still existed ...wheres the problem....

and ...besides...unless someone is sufficiently disable to have extra needs, be it carer, vehicle etc with that 155 a week, then I think you could justifiably tell em to STFU,

to institute such a system it seems, would require quite a number of people being told to STFU and stop whingeing

People on ESA don't necessarily get DLA as well.

Those on ESA currently get less than £155 per week, so there would be no reason why they would need more - unless you add in housing costs, but that applies to those on JSA too.

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:44 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:firstly things are NOT going to get better...

jobs are being eaten by tech at an ever increasing rate...your job ragga...whatever it is can likely be done cheaper and better by a robot/computer

the payment is a minimum payment guarantee to help stave off the fact that soon if not right now there are NOT enough jobs to go round....

and..as I say go look up the ONS stats...

7 people for every job...the lie is made up that we need the immigrants....and it IS a lie....

its to cover the arse of incompetant and greedy govt....

the idea of EVERYONE getting it is simple...it stops whingeing whineing folks from complaining that some one is getting something they dont....

and actually is probably quite just...

If I got £155 a week for nothing, I wouldn't need one of my jobs anyway, so the robots are welcome to it.

It just seems a bit defeatist to say there are no jobs so let's just give people a load of dosh every week.

well I can see what you are getting at Ragga, but the plain fact is that that IS the problem, maggie started it, killing off the big employers of man power, all the heavy industry gone....

now even light industry and service industry is needing fewer and fewer people...

so either we kill a few off or some other system has to come along and take up the burden....

I suppose we could start a war with russia or something...that would work....

but I recon making tech pay its way would be better....

besides, from a personal point of view, why wouldnt you give up one of your jobs to a computer , if the system said that was OK, immagine what you could do with that extra time...

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:48 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

If I got £155 a week for nothing, I wouldn't need one of my jobs anyway, so the robots are welcome to it.

It just seems a bit defeatist to say there are no jobs so let's just give people a load of dosh every week.

well I can see what you are getting at Ragga, but the plain fact is that that IS the problem, maggie started it, killing off the big employers of man power, all the heavy industry gone....

now even light industry and service industry is needing fewer and fewer people...

so either we kill a few off or some other system has to come along and take up the burden....

I suppose we could start a war with russia or something...that would work....

but I recon making tech pay its way would be better....

besides, from a personal point of view, why wouldnt you give up one of your jobs to a computer , if the system said that was OK, immagine what you could do with that extra time...

Well yes. As I said, I would benefit personally from such a system, but I'm not used to being given something for nothing, and it just doesn't sit right with me. We'll just become a nation of layabouts. Imagine being 18 again and being told - oh here's £155 per week for no reason whatsoever.

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:00 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

well I can see what you are getting at Ragga, but the plain fact is that that IS the problem, maggie started it, killing off the big employers of man power, all the heavy industry gone....

now even light industry and service industry is needing fewer and fewer people...

so either we kill a few off or some other system has to come along and take up the burden....

I suppose we could start a war with russia or something...that would work....

but I recon making tech pay its way would be better....

besides, from a personal point of view, why wouldnt you give up one of your jobs to a computer , if the system said that was OK, immagine what you could do with that extra time...

Well yes. As I said, I would benefit personally from such a system, but I'm not used to being given something for nothing, and it just doesn't sit right with me. We'll just become a nation of layabouts. Imagine being 18 again and being told - oh here's £155 per week for no reason whatsoever.

but then again, imagine being able to couple that with "if you dont behave it will be halved or worse"

and...its not "something for nothing"

at best its "compensation for the lack of job oportunities currently available due to technologiocal advance" a sort of "spread over time redundancy payment"

also I think you ahve a bit of a dismal view of youngsters today ragga, sure some are idle and so are some older folk....but many would, as they do now volunteer for things that cant be done by any machine...especially if that volunteering contained a bit of something "extra" ...volunteer with us and after 20 weeks we'll throw in a weeks adventure course for you....

come volunteer here and we will train you as a certifed first aider...
volunteer with us and we will get you your driving licence.....

etc ...

incentive neednt be "cash"

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:04 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Richard The Lionheart wrote:

For one I do not find it funny and sik and tired of the crap people claim of others here, as I am sure you hated being called a Nazi did you not?
So not trying to pinch anything, I am sick of the regressive support for bad ideologies and I see this as nothing more than aiding groups that are at odds with our way of life.
To then have you claim my athiesm is some way radical is to me an insult, when you know my views better than any.
So no I do not find it in any shape or form piss take

yeah yeah....go sit in the fridge for an hour and cool off

I know your views perfectly well...and largely agree with many of them...

BUT....

the way to "win" arguments, debates etc....is with rational and sensible arguments...not calling folks cnuts (unless its veya)
and you have to get folk on board...not alienate them didge....

i mean you have markedly changed your views over the last year or so, much of that change has been towards MY POV...
now,,,why would that be....was it becasue i called you names (which I did at times)...or was it because we could find areas to agree on? and that you found my arguments pursuasive??(which you did at times)

which had the greater effect???

Holy shit, batman - wise words.

Almost Muslim like. tongue

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:06 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well yes. As I said, I would benefit personally from such a system, but I'm not used to being given something for nothing, and it just doesn't sit right with me. We'll just become a nation of layabouts. Imagine being 18 again and being told - oh here's £155 per week for no reason whatsoever.

but then again, imagine being able to couple that with "if you dont behave it will be halved or worse"

and...its not "something for nothing"

at best its "compensation for the lack of job oportunities currently available due to technologiocal advance" a sort of "spread over time redundancy payment"

also I think you ahve a bit of a dismal view of youngsters today ragga, sure some are idle and so are some older folk....but many would, as they do now volunteer for things that cant be done by any machine...especially if that volunteering contained a bit of something "extra" ...volunteer with us and after 20 weeks we'll throw in a weeks adventure course for you....

come volunteer here and we will train you as a certifed first aider...
volunteer with us and we will get you your driving licence.....

etc ...

incentive neednt be "cash"

I do have a job though. If I got £155 a week, I would probably give up that job - ie, I would be getting something for nothing.

It's not that I have a dismal view of youngsters - in fact I work with some who I like very much. I just think that giving them £155 a week would go to their head a bit, especially if they didn't have to earn it.

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:27 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

yeah yeah....go sit in the fridge for an hour and cool off

I know your views perfectly well...and largely agree with many of them...

BUT....

the way to "win" arguments, debates etc....is with rational and sensible arguments...not calling folks cnuts (unless its veya)
and you have to get folk on board...not alienate them didge....

i mean you have markedly changed your views over the last year or so, much of that change has been towards MY POV...
now,,,why would that be....was it becasue i called you names (which I did at times)...or was it because we could find areas to agree on? and that you found my arguments pursuasive??(which you did at times)

which had the greater effect???

Holy shit, batman - wise words.

Almost Muslim like.

now dont get carried away fuzzy......

I doubt there are many areas we could actually agree on within the sphere of either religion OR spirituality...

I'm still not entirely convinced that you wouldnt cut my head off for being a druid (pagan to you) Razz

even though WE would welcome YOU to any of our rituals AND would happily pay respects your god ...in your manner, in one of your temples.
(since we see all as one and everyone has to find their own path to the light)

by veya_victaous Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:51 pm

we will just invent new things to do
Imagine the Art and Music that could be created.
Let alone Reality2.0 (or various other ideas) they we could kick off in the Virtual world.

although it is a good idea start conditioning homo sapiens to it's 'pet' status
Vote #1 Skynet
there will be cake and £155 a week Razz

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:44 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Holy shit, batman - wise words.

Almost Muslim like.

now dont get carried away fuzzy......

I doubt there are many areas we could actually agree on within the sphere of either religion OR spirituality...

I'm still not entirely convinced that you wouldnt cut my head off for being a druid (pagan to you)
even though WE would welcome YOU to any of our rituals AND would happily pay respects your god ...in your manner, in one of your temples.
(since we see all as one and everyone has to find their own path to the light)

#YouAintNoMuslimBruv!

Happy? tongue

And considering I has problems slaughtering a goat when I was 10, I doubt I could harm a human. Even a pagan. My brother on the otehrhand, did slaughter my goat. But like a surgeon. Wink

It's ok Vic. If ever required, I'll hide you in my hareem. Let me know what dress size you are?

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:56 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

now dont get carried away fuzzy......

I doubt there are many areas we could actually agree on within the sphere of either religion OR spirituality...

I'm still not entirely convinced that you wouldnt cut my head off for being a druid (pagan to you)
even though WE would welcome YOU to any of our rituals AND would happily pay respects your god ...in your manner, in one of your temples.
(since we see all as one and everyone has to find their own path to the light)

#YouAintNoMuslimBruv!

Happy?

And considering I has problems slaughtering a goat when I was 10, I doubt I could harm a human. Even a pagan. My brother on the otehrhand, did slaughter my goat. But like a surgeon.

It's ok Vic. If ever required, I'll hide you in my hareem. Let me know what dress size you are?

That made me sit here giggling, you haven't seen his beard, think they might suss him out!

by Victorismyhero Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:28 pm

sassy wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

#YouAintNoMuslimBruv!

Happy?

And considering I has problems slaughtering a goat when I was 10, I doubt I could harm a human. Even a pagan. My brother on the otehrhand, did slaughter my goat. But like a surgeon.

It's ok Vic. If ever required, I'll hide you in my hareem. Let me know what dress size you are?

That made me sit here giggling, you haven't seen his beard, think they might suss him out!

you havnt seen fuzzy's hareem Suspect

by eddie Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:34 pm

Lord Foul wrote:well , unless something like this is brought in, paid for by a tax on tech and on firms that benefit from tech the I'd love to see raggas ideas as to how to solve the problem that there are not enough jobs to go round. Anyone who beleives to the contrary is round the bend

whar are we going to do ...employe 1 million dustmen....all with degrees at that

5 million hair dressers???

a million road sweepers...

except that in 10 years time even those jobs may well be done by robot devices....

so another 10 million bank clerks perhaps???

erm ....nope....

we have atm a population around 29 million working people, by the end of 2025 I would suggest that that number will be down by at least 1/3rd as t3ch makes more and more redundant.....

what do you suggest ragga....

should we cull a few.....?

or should we start making "tech" pay its way....

via taxes on firms and on the tech itself?

you do realise dont you, inevitably the end result will HAVE to be that the govt (i.e the people) own ALL manufacturing etc, and that aside from a small "cash allowance for odds and ends people wont get money...they will just go and get what they need/want from the warehouse.....

all homes and such will HAVE to be "state owned" and when you reach "the age of independance...you get a home...provided by "the state"

its inevitable that this will have to happen...it might get messy along the way...but its comming

I've read the whole thread and swayed between the two opposing views....

This post sold it for me.
I think Vic is right.

Mostly, I think Vic is nearly always right now I come to think of it.
You are a superb poster Vic. And I don't do licky arse posts, but you have grown on me over the years you miserable bastard

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:35 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
sassy wrote:

That made me sit here giggling, you haven't seen his beard, think they might suss him out!

you havnt seen fuzzy's hareem

Snort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my that paints a picture lol

£155 a week may be an idea whose time has come - Page 3 14492

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:36 pm

eddie wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:well , unless something like this is brought in, paid for by a tax on tech and on firms that benefit from tech the I'd love to see raggas ideas as to how to solve the problem that there are not enough jobs to go round. Anyone who beleives to the contrary is round the bend

whar are we going to do ...employe 1 million dustmen....all with degrees at that

5 million hair dressers???

a million road sweepers...

except that in 10 years time even those jobs may well be done by robot devices....

so another 10 million bank clerks perhaps???

erm ....nope....

we have atm a population around 29 million working people, by the end of 2025 I would suggest that that number will be down by at least 1/3rd as t3ch makes more and more redundant.....

what do you suggest ragga....

should we cull a few.....?

or should we start making "tech" pay its way....

via taxes on firms and on the tech itself?

you do realise dont you, inevitably the end result will HAVE to be that the govt (i.e the people) own ALL manufacturing etc, and that aside from a small "cash allowance for odds and ends people wont get money...they will just go and get what they need/want from the warehouse.....

all homes and such will HAVE to be "state owned" and when you reach "the age of independance...you get a home...provided by "the state"

its inevitable that this will have to happen...it might get messy along the way...but its comming

I've read the whole thread and swayed between the two opposing views....

This post sold it for me.
I think Vic is right.

Mostly, I think Vic is nearly always right now I come to think of it.
You are a superb poster Vic. And I don't do licky arse posts, but you have grown on me over the years you miserable bastard

Vic grows on everyone, even if you want to threaten him with a frying pay lol

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:48 pm

sassy wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

you havnt seen fuzzy's hareem

Snort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my that paints a picture lol

Everyone needs love.

Thank God for darkness and my short sightedness. Soft focus always helps.

by Guest Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:52 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
sassy wrote:

Snort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my that paints a picture lol

Everyone needs love.

Thank God for darkness and my short sightedness. Soft focus always helps.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love it!

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:01 pm

So we're going to end up with a society where hardly anyone works full time, and they pay for their free time by a tax on gadgets and phone texts. I guess they'll have a lot of time to send texts, but let's hope it's to the value of £155 in tax for each person.

by veya_victaous Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:22 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:So we're going to end up with a society where hardly anyone works full time, and they pay for their free time by a tax on gadgets and phone texts. I guess they'll have a lot of time to send texts, but let's hope it's to the value of £155 in tax for each person.

It makes more sense with a china like economy where the state owns shares in all Companies thus gains income by the success of companies. Gov't takes it share of the profit and distributes it to the citizens. Really it could also be seen as giving everyone shares in an 'incorporated nation' the payment is just like dividends.

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:27 pm

Let's not forget the drop in income tax revenue as well.

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