Watch: People don’t know the Bible from the Koran

First topic message reminder :



A duo of Dutch comedians who run the Dit is Normaal YouTube channel pulled off a telling and incredibly timely stunt.

They purchased a copy of the Bible, wrapped it in a fake cover indicating that it was the Koran, and read out some particularly troubling passages to passersby.

At the end, they reveal that these lines were actually from Christianity's holy book, not that of Islam, much to the bewilderment of those caught on camera. The video has garnered more than 2 million views since it was uploaded Friday.

Here are some of the passages the comedians highlight:

"If you reject my commands and abhor my laws you will eat the flesh of your own sons... and the flesh of your own daughters."
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission."
"If two men sleep with each other they will both have to be killed."

To no great surprise, the people interviewed are not impressed and wonder aloud that violence is ingrained in Islam.

Some even suggest that the Bible is a more "positive" and "less harsh" religious tract.

This echoes a strain of thought now peddled by some prominent analysts and politicians, who pin the root causes of Islamist militancy on the fundamental nature of Islam itself — rather than more recent historical and political factors that have led to the rise of extremism in certain corners of the world.

As the video shows, though, all ancient religious texts carry language that we would now find disturbing.

"It's all just prejudice really. I always try not to be prejudiced myself, but apparently I already am," concludes one of the people hoodwinked by the experiment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/12/07/watch-people-dont-know-the-bible-from-the-koran/?tid=pm_world_pop_b


Facinating

Raggamuffin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

And nor are they.

Yes they are. I think you're just afraid to say they are because of what they're doing.

I've explained how the do not follow the Quran completely, therefore do not follow the articles of faith.

You can read the articles I posted above.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes they are. I think you're just afraid to say they are because of what they're doing.

I've explained how the do not follow the Quran completely, therefore do not follow the articles of faith.

You can read the articles I posted above.

You think that makes them non-Muslims, but it doesn't mean they're not Muslims.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

They are being groomed online. Many of them are victims and mistreated when they get there.

That's still not an answer. They are going off to join them because they're Muslims, right?

Ultimately God will judge all them individually. I can only tell you what makes someone a Muslim. I don't know the actions of these girls. Have they killed an innocent?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I've explained how the do not follow the Quran completely, therefore do not follow the articles of faith.

You can read the articles I posted above.

You think that makes them non-Muslims, but it doesn't mean they're not Muslims.  

Like I said, there is only one ultimate judge.

It would be like the New Kadampa Tradition saying that the Dalai Lama is not a Buddhist.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

That's still not an answer. They are going off to join them because they're Muslims, right?

Ultimately God will judge all them individually. I can only tell you what makes someone a Muslim. I don't know the actions of these girls. Have they killed an innocent?

No idea. We don't tend to hear much about them after they've left this country. I hope they stay away - they are terrorist supporters and criminals.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

That's still not an answer. They are going off to join them because they're Muslims, right?

Ultimately God will judge all them individually. I can only tell you what makes someone a Muslim. I don't know the actions of these girls. Have they killed an innocent?

The first honest answer based off around your faith.
Its a shame many Muslims do not also take that stance

Also claiming ISIS are not Muslims based off taking drugs holds no validity.

Its on alcohol.

Show me the verse on this.

Also if you deny drugs being used, then many Muslims cannot have any medical drugs can they, as some drugs are needed that relieve some of the most unberable pain

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Ultimately God will judge all them individually. I can only tell you what makes someone a Muslim. I don't know the actions of these girls. Have they killed an innocent?

The first honest answer based off around your faith.
Its a shame many Muslims do not also take that stance

Also claiming ISIS are not Muslims based off taking drugs holds no validity.

Its on alcohol.

Show me the verse on this.

Also if you deny drugs being used, then many Muslims cannot have any medical drugs can they, as some drugs are needed that relieve some of the most unberable pain

Do you know the difference between drugs and intoxicants? The Quran prohibits the latter.

5:90 to 5:91.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


The first honest answer based off around your faith.
Its a shame many Muslims do not also take that stance

Also claiming ISIS are not Muslims based off taking drugs holds no validity.

Its on alcohol.

Show me the verse on this.

Also if you deny drugs being used, then many Muslims cannot have any medical drugs can they, as some drugs are needed that relieve some of the most unberable pain

Do you know the difference between drugs and intoxicants? The Quran prohibits the latter.

5:90 to 5:91.

That is alcohol and not all drugs make people intoxicated, some actually enhance perception.

So its nothing more than an interpretation.

Again are you going to deny Morphine in a large does to a Muslim cancer sufferer?

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Do you know the difference between drugs and intoxicants? The Quran prohibits the latter.

5:90 to 5:91.

That is alcohol and not all drugs make people intoxicated, some actually enhance perception.

So its nothing more than an interpretation.

Again are you going to deny Morphine in a large does to a Muslim cancer sufferer?

No because you're getting intoxicated to have fun. It's all about intent.

Same applies to Night Nurse.

Islam actually recognises that some drugs can be beneficial but the cons outweigh the pros. So the advice or ruling is to avoid.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Ultimately God will judge all them individually. I can only tell you what makes someone a Muslim. I don't know the actions of these girls. Have they killed an innocent?

The first honest answer based off around your faith.
Its a shame many Muslims do not also take that stance

Also claiming ISIS are not Muslims based off taking drugs holds no validity.

Its on alcohol.

Show me the verse on this.

Also if you deny drugs being used, then many Muslims cannot have any medical drugs can they, as some drugs are needed that relieve some of the most unberable pain

FYI - are you happy I proved you wrong about the ruling going beyond just alcohol?

Again its only alcohol, not any other drug, if it was it would not be specific on alcohol, even more so when other drugs were known back then,. proving further how there is so much wiggle room in the interpretation of islam.
So if ISIS take other drugs that does not disqualify them as Muslims. Even taking your stance it would only make them not good at praticing their faith.

Again not all drugs intoxicate like drunkeness

Sorry Zack but you know for a fact there is no prohibition on other drugs, its just a view later taken

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


The first honest answer based off around your faith.
Its a shame many Muslims do not also take that stance

Also claiming ISIS are not Muslims based off taking drugs holds no validity.

Its on alcohol.

Show me the verse on this.

Also if you deny drugs being used, then many Muslims cannot have any medical drugs can they, as some drugs are needed that relieve some of the most unberable pain

FYI - are you happy I proved you wrong about the ruling going beyond just alcohol?

You mean a modern interpretation you just gave?
You never proved anything, sorry

Also relief from pain using drugs would be gaining pleasure would it not? So what if they get fun out of needing these drugs.??
That is what they call checkmate

Richard The Lionheart wrote:Again its only alcohol, not any other drug, if it was it would not be specific on alcohol, even more so when other drugs were known back then,. proving further how there is so much wiggle room in the interpretation of islam.
So if ISIS take other drugs that does not disqualify them as Muslims. Even taking your stance it would only make them not good at praticing their faith.

Again not all drugs intoxicate like drunkeness

Sorry Zack but you know for a fact there is no prohibition on other drugs, its just a view later taken

The Quran prohibits all intoxicants. That's the point. Medication is different.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:Also relief from pain using drugs would be gaining pleasure would it not? So what if they get fun out of needing these drugs.??
That is what they call checkmate

Lol! See reply above.

No it does not prohibit intoxicants and not all drugs are intoxicants, so you are really takking gibberish

Checkmate

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

FYI - are you happy I proved you wrong about the ruling going beyond just alcohol?

You mean a modern interpretation you just gave?
You never proved anything, sorry

I didn't give you an interpretation. Please do not lie.

I gave you the verse numbers. You could have chosen any language or interpretation.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:No it does not prohibit intoxicants and not all drugs are intoxicants, so you are really takking gibberish

Checkmate

You're now clearly lying about verses 5:90 and 91 which clearly prohibits intoxicants.

No it does not, it clearly states off alcohol

Its you that is lying and badly so.

Again you failed to answer my question.

What if a Muslim gets pleasure off the drugs treating them?

So fuinny when you are caught in a trap.

That would mean you would have to deny them life saving drugs

Quran.

Pickthall: O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, wine, gambling, the stone altars and arrows (that the pagans associate with certain divine characters) are all abominable acts associated with satanic activities. Avoid them so that you may have everlasting happiness.

Arberry: O believers, wine and arrow-shuffling, idols and divining-arrows are an abomination, some of Satan's work; so avoid it; haply So you will prosper.


Like I say wiggle room and modern interpretations to the verses to make then all drugs prohibited.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:Quran.

Pickthall: O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, wine, gambling, the stone altars and arrows (that the pagans associate with certain divine characters) are all abominable acts associated with satanic activities. Avoid them so that you may have everlasting happiness.

Arberry: O believers, wine and arrow-shuffling, idols and divining-arrows are an abomination, some of Satan's work; so avoid it; haply So you will prosper.


Like I say wiggle room and modern interpretations to the verses to make then all drugs prohibited.

That's why I gave you the verse number and not interpretation.

How many times have SM and I told you that you must read the Quran in Arabic to truly understand?

5:90 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama alkhamru waalmaysiru waalansabu waalazlamu rijsun min AAamali alshshaytani faijtaniboohu laAAallakum tuflihoona

Khamr means intoxicants.

As you say, check mate.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:No it does not, it clearly states off alcohol

Its you that is lying and badly so.

Again you failed to answer my question.

What if a Muslim gets pleasure off the drugs treating them?

So fuinny when you are caught in a trap.

That would mean you would have to deny them life saving drugs

I get pleasure from Night Nurse when I'm ill.

That's ok. Lol!

Oh so now these people should be removed because you claim they cannot translate arabic?

is that your excuse here?
I bet you these verese were for many years only refered to as being wine/alcohol.

It shows how badly that islam can be interpreted


Again that is checkmate

Again a patient can be intoxicated and get pleasure from the life saving drugs.
that would mean you would have to stop them

Checkmate again

Okay Zack when you return, do you know why it would be impossible for the Arabic word in the Quran to mean intoxicated, for when the word was first put pen to paper for the Quran?

Second, again there are drugs that give pleasure but do not produce intoxication and expclially inoxtication, which is more derived from the word drunkenness.

Now lets see if you can figure out why many Muslims who interpret this word are not using the original meaning

Richard The Lionheart wrote:Okay Zack when you return, do you know why it would be impossible for the Arabic word in the Quran to mean intoxicated, for when the word was first put pen to paper for the Quran?

Second, again there are drugs that give pleasure but do not produce intoxication and expclially inoxtication, which is more derived from the word drunkenness.

Now lets see if you can figure out why many Muslims who interpret this word are not using the original meaning

Please enlighten me.

I look forward to it.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:Okay Zack when you return, do you know why it would be impossible for the Arabic word in the Quran to mean intoxicated, for when the word was first put pen to paper for the Quran?

Second, again there are drugs that give pleasure but do not produce intoxication and expclially inoxtication, which is more derived from the word drunkenness.

Now lets see if you can figure out why many Muslims who interpret this word are not using the original meaning

Please enlighten me.

I look forward to it.

I will give you a clue.
The origin of the word intoxicated:


late Middle English (in the sense ‘poison’): from medieval Latin intoxicare, from in- ‘into’ + toxicare ‘to poison’, from Latin toxicum (see toxic).
Translate intoxicated to

Use over time for: intoxicated




So it would be impossible that the word means intoxicated.
It clearly meant drunk or drunkeness and would thus only be relevant to alcohol.

Also based off you thinking intoxication is banned through pleausre, why is sex not banned?
I mean surely the fear of producing an orgasim would be taboo, being as it gives off for a short time similar sensations to intoxication.

What does an orgasm feel like?

Where the physical contractions of orgasm occur and what particular sensations you experience are two different things. Each person has a unique experience of orgasm but common experiences include changes in breathing, a feeling of warmth, sweating, body vibrations, altered consciousness, or an urge to moan or cry out. During orgasm, endorphins are released into the bloodstream and these chemicals might make you feel happy, giddy, flushed, warm or sleepy.

Some women have orgasms but don’t realize it. You might think that what you are experiencing is too mild to be an orgasm or otherwise doesn’t fit your idea of what an orgasm should feel like. It can be important to focus on what you do feel, and realizing that this may or may not match someone else’s experience of orgasm.


You starting to get the feeling your Quran is not the word of any God?
I mean why ban a feeling, when it is produced naturally for some during sex?

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Please enlighten me.

I look forward to it.

I will give you a clue.
The origin of the word intoxicated:


late Middle English (in the sense ‘poison’): from medieval Latin intoxicare, from in- ‘into’ + toxicare ‘to poison’, from Latin toxicum (see toxic).
Translate intoxicated to

Use over time for: intoxicated




So it would be impossible that the word means intoxicated.
It clearly meant drunk or drunkeness and would thus only be relevant to alcohol.

Also based off you thinking intoxication is banned through pleausre, why is sex not banned?
I mean surely the fear of producing an orgasim would be taboo, being as it gives off for a short time similar sensations to intoxication.

What does an orgasm feel like?

Where the physical contractions of orgasm occur and what particular sensations you experience are two different things. Each person has a unique experience of orgasm but common experiences include changes in breathing, a feeling of warmth, sweating, body vibrations, altered consciousness, or an urge to moan or cry out. During orgasm, endorphins are released into the bloodstream and these chemicals might make you feel happy, giddy, flushed, warm or sleepy.

Some women have orgasms but don’t realize it. You might think that what you are experiencing is too mild to be an orgasm or otherwise doesn’t fit your idea of what an orgasm should feel like. It can be important to focus on what you do feel, and realizing that this may or may not match someone else’s experience of orgasm.


You starting to get the feeling your Quran is not the word of any God?
I mean why ban a feeling, when it is produced naturally for some during sex?

I'm not sure how this is suppose to make me doubt my faith. You're going to have to dumb it down for me more.

Besides, you've only looked at one side of the equation. How about looking at the Arabic word, esp if you want me to analyse my faith (always up for that)? Then i can have the complete picture.

You fail to grasp the point, you are translating the arabic woprd into an English word, where that word did not come into being centuries after the Quran.
You should start with the origin of thee word Toxin, which would help.
Now drunkness has been around longer than the Quran, so it makes sense the word actually means drunk.
Like I say, you would have to find the original meaning of the arabic word, which I have no doubt meant drunkeness, being as their was no conception of intoxication at the time.

That is what you fail to grasp.
Hence to claim the word means intoxicated is completely false, as that is a modern translation into English

I am showing you how badly those within your faith try to make something fit, which is impossible to do, based on how and when words came intop being.

Again why is sex not banned?

Again intoxication really does refer mainly to drinking as again many other drugs do not even produce such a sensation.

So clearly the Quran does not in any shape or form ban all drugs, even ones that produce pleasure

Richard The Lionheart wrote:You fail to grasp the point, you are translating the arabic woprd into an English word, where that word did not come into being centuries after the Quran.
You should start with the origin of thee word Toxin, which would help.
Now drunkness has been around longer than the Quran, so it makes sense the word actually means drunk.
Like I say, you would have to find the original meaning of the arabic word, which I have no doubt meant drunkeness, being as their was no conception of intoxication at the time.

That is what you fail to grasp.
Hence to claim the word means intoxicated is completely false, as that is a modern translation into English

I am showing you how badly those within your faith try to make something fit, which is impossible to do, based on how and when words came intop being.

Again why is sex not banned?

Again intoxication really does refer mainly to drinking as again many other drugs do not even produce such a sensation.

So clearly the Quran does not in any shape or form ban all drugs, even ones that produce pleasure

It means "to cover or cloud the mind". You know, like being intoxicated. HA HA!

Re: Sex - there's no point talking to a celibate virgin. ;-)

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:You fail to grasp the point, you are translating the arabic woprd into an English word, where that word did not come into being centuries after the Quran.
You should start with the origin of thee word Toxin, which would help.
Now drunkness has been around longer than the Quran, so it makes sense the word actually means drunk.
Like I say, you would have to find the original meaning of the arabic word, which I have no doubt meant drunkeness, being as their was no conception of intoxication at the time.

That is what you fail to grasp.
Hence to claim the word means intoxicated is completely false, as that is a modern translation into English

I am showing you how badly those within your faith try to make something fit, which is impossible to do, based on how and when words came intop being.

Again why is sex not banned?

Again intoxication really does refer mainly to drinking as again many other drugs do not even produce such a sensation.

So clearly the Quran does not in any shape or form ban all drugs, even ones that produce pleasure

It means "to cover or cloud the mind". You know, like being intoxicated. HA HA!

Re: Sex - there's no point talking to a celibate virgin. ;-)

Which would mean you would have to rule out sex.

Not bragging but had to take a woman to hospital years ago who basically had her first orgasim, as she was near incapcitated for about 5 minutes after, where she was disorinatated, unable to stand, was slurring etc. Mind you I am sure you can imagine how big my head was trying to explain what happened to the doctor 

Many other things can cloud the mind that are produced naturally or through illness, so where does that leave the view on a command claimed to be from a deity.

So it really dopes leave you in a pickle, and thus the word also does not mean intoxicated even with the arabic meaning.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

It means "to cover or cloud the mind". You know, like being intoxicated. HA HA!

Re: Sex - there's no point talking to a celibate virgin. ;-)

Which would mean you would have to rule out sex.

Not bragging but had to take a woman to hospital years ago who basically had her first orgasim, as she was near incapcitated for about 5 minutes after, where she was disorinatated, unable to stand, was slurring etc. Mind you I am sure you can imagine how big my head was trying to explain what happened to the doctor 

Many other things can cloud the mind that are produced naturally or through illness, so where does that leave the view on a command claimed to be from a deity.

So it really dopes leave you in a pickle, and thus the word also does not mean intoxicated even with the arabic meaning.

Sounds like your genital herpes travelled to her brain and caused a brain clot and subsequent stroke.

I don't really care what kind of Muslim you want to be. If you want to be a drug free, celibate brother then more power to you.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


Which would mean you would have to rule out sex.

Not bragging but had to take a woman to hospital years ago who basically had her first orgasim, as she was near incapcitated for about 5 minutes after, where she was disorinatated, unable to stand, was slurring etc. Mind you I am sure you can imagine how big my head was trying to explain what happened to the doctor 

Many other things can cloud the mind that are produced naturally or through illness, so where does that leave the view on a command claimed to be from a deity.

So it really dopes leave you in a pickle, and thus the word also does not mean intoxicated even with the arabic meaning.

Sounds like your genital herpes travelled to her brain and caused a brain clot and subsequent stroke.

I don't really care what kind of Muslim you want to be. If you want to be a drug free, celibate brother then more power to you.

Coming from someone who is never seen and expernced a woman have an orgasim, that really agains sums up your sexual immaturity.

I am not trying to make you into any kind of Muslims.

I am just trying to help you open your eyes or even just for once actually properly look at your own religion as you would of others with the same critical eye.

I mean why is it okay from many Muslims to try and preach to convert, but if I just open up the view to the possibility of doubt in your faith, you get very defensive. So why is that? I am sure you happily embrace anyone that converts, so why is it so wrong for me to question your faith? From my view point people would be far happier without such religions, being as I was once a literal believer myself and thus can see both sides of how it feels.

Many drugs just enhamce the feeling you are having at the time, some can make you feel even more unhappy, if that is your mood.

Fair play you are celibate, one of my brothers was also until he married and then realised what he had been missing out on.

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

It means "to cover or cloud the mind". You know, like being intoxicated. HA HA!

Re: Sex - there's no point talking to a celibate virgin. ;-)

Which would mean you would have to rule out sex.

Not bragging but had to take a woman to hospital years ago who basically had her first orgasim, as she was near incapcitated for about 5 minutes after, where she was disorinatated, unable to stand, was slurring etc. Mind you I am sure you can imagine how big my head was trying to explain what happened to the doctor 

Many other things can cloud the mind that are produced naturally or through illness, so where does that leave the view on a command claimed to be from a deity.

So it really dopes leave you in a pickle, and thus the word also does not mean intoxicated even with the arabic meaning.

What Are the Symptoms of a Stroke?
You should consider these symptoms warning signs and consult your health care provider:

Sudden weakness or numbness in the face, arm, or leg on one side of the body.
Abrupt loss of vision, strength, coordination, sensation, speech, or the ability to understand speech. These symptoms may become worse over time.
Sudden dimness of vision, especially in one eye.
Sudden loss of balance, possibly accompanied by vomiting, nausea, fever, hiccups, or trouble with swallowing.
Sudden and severe headache with no other cause followed rapidly by loss of consciousness -- indications of a stroke due to bleeding.
Brief loss of consciousness.
Unexplained dizziness or sudden falls.

http://www.webmd.com/stroke/guide/understanding-stroke-symptoms

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Sounds like your genital herpes travelled to her brain and caused a brain clot and subsequent stroke.

I don't really care what kind of Muslim you want to be. If you want to be a drug free, celibate brother then more power to you.

Coming from someone who is never seen and expernced a woman have an orgasim, that really agains sums up your sexual immaturity.

I am not trying to make you into any kind of Muslims.

I am just trying to help you open your eyes or even just for once actually properly look at your own religion as you would of others with the same critical eye.

I mean why is it okay from many Muslims to try and preach to convert, but if I just open up the view to the possibility of doubt in your faith, you get very defensive. So why is that? I am sure you happily embrace anyone that converts, so why is it so wrong for me to question your faith? From my view point people would be far happier without such religions, being as I was once a literal believer myself and thus can see both sides of how it feels.

Many drugs just enhamce the feeling you are having at the time, some can make you feel even more unhappy, if that is your mood.

Fair play you are celibate, one of my brothers was also until he married and then realised what he had been missing out on.

You're not really doing very well in opening this Muslim's eyes.

Has this worked on any other Muslim you know?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


Which would mean you would have to rule out sex.

Not bragging but had to take a woman to hospital years ago who basically had her first orgasim, as she was near incapcitated for about 5 minutes after, where she was disorinatated, unable to stand, was slurring etc. Mind you I am sure you can imagine how big my head was trying to explain what happened to the doctor 

Many other things can cloud the mind that are produced naturally or through illness, so where does that leave the view on a command claimed to be from a deity.

So it really dopes leave you in a pickle, and thus the word also does not mean intoxicated even with the arabic meaning.

What Are the Symptoms of a Stroke?
You should consider these symptoms warning signs and consult your health care provider:

Sudden weakness or numbness in the face, arm, or leg on one side of the body.
Abrupt loss of vision, strength, coordination, sensation, speech, or the ability to understand speech. These symptoms may become worse over time.
Sudden dimness of vision, especially in one eye.
Sudden loss of balance, possibly accompanied by vomiting, nausea, fever, hiccups, or trouble with swallowing.
Sudden and severe headache with no other cause followed rapidly by loss of consciousness -- indications of a stroke due to bleeding.
Brief loss of consciousness.
Unexplained dizziness or sudden falls.

http://www.webmd.com/stroke/guide/understanding-stroke-symptoms

Well she never had a stroke, as this was one of the first views.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


Coming from someone who is never seen and expernced a woman have an orgasim, that really agains sums up your sexual immaturity.

I am not trying to make you into any kind of Muslims.

I am just trying to help you open your eyes or even just for once actually properly look at your own religion as you would of others with the same critical eye.

I mean why is it okay from many Muslims to try and preach to convert, but if I just open up the view to the possibility of doubt in your faith, you get very defensive. So why is that? I am sure you happily embrace anyone that converts, so why is it so wrong for me to question your faith? From my view point people would be far happier without such religions, being as I was once a literal believer myself and thus can see both sides of how it feels.

Many drugs just enhamce the feeling you are having at the time, some can make you feel even more unhappy, if that is your mood.

Fair play you are celibate, one of my brothers was also until he married and then realised what he had been missing out on.

You're not really doing very well in opening this Muslim's eyes.

Has this worked on any other Muslim you know?

I know of two that have left their faith but have known them for over 15 years.
I mean how many have you converted to Islam over the years?
So the same could be very much said about you Zack

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You're not really doing very well in opening this Muslim's eyes.

Has this worked on any other Muslim you know?

I know of two that have left their faith but have known them for over 15 years.
I mean how many have you converted to Islam over the years?
So the same could be very much said about you Zack

Have I ever reverted anybody or try too?

Again if you understood Islam, it is God who reverts people who have their hearts and minds open.

Shows how little you know about me or how I think. This is not some competition. lol! This is why you will never understand my philosophy.

Perhaps your 2 Muslim friends will have a better chance converting me away from Islam.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


I know of two that have left their faith but have known them for over 15 years.
I mean how many have you converted to Islam over the years?
So the same could be very much said about you Zack

Have I ever reverted anybody or try too?

Again if you understood Islam, it is God who reverts people who have their hearts and minds open.

Shows how little you know about me or how I think. This is not some competition. lol! This is why you will never understand my philosophy.

Perhaps your 2 Muslim friends will have a better chance converting me away from Islam.

But to me there is no evidence of a God, and if that was the case it was the God reverting people, then this means everything is done and planned before hand, thus relegating a sizeable amount of people to then suffer torture for no reason than this god deciding. That is not again a choice. You then have to go off what this deity decides is good, and if a deity criminalizes people over how emotionally they feel, of which it does if they deny love of belief, then no such deity deserves or warrants any such respect.
Again the very fact you avoid so many problematic points I raise about the abrahamic deity, shows clearly that you  wish to bury your head in the sand by ignoring, as most literal religious peoeple do.
I have no need to understand your philosophy, I can easily show why such a deity described within these faiths, is essentially quite evil and barbaric.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:There are people on this forum who will use the term "cherry picking" when it comes to the Bible and the Koran. If a Muslim cherry picks from the Koran, I don't have a problem with that - well as long as it's not bits saying they should kill anyone obviously.

Being a Muslim one cant cherry pick. You either take it fully or you don't believe in it.

isnt that a problem then sexy??

after all the koran bangs on about chopping pagans up (in as many words)

if you conclude that that was for a "specific time" are you not then cherry picking or, alternatively "interpreting" (which amounts to the same thing since it quite clearly states that what it says is for all time)?????

Look Didge, you can find out about Islamic philosophy for yourself or your friends. For me the topic is too large to discuss here.

But I will try to summarise.

Islam does believe in predestination.

So yes, God knows if I will be a sinner or a winner.

But I don't. All I have is a series of choices to follow the righteous path. God knows which one I will choose but the choice is still mine.

This is becuase Islam believes in a God outside his creation - that is, not bound or confined by space or time.

For God (and FYI Einstein), the past, present and the future all exists at the same time. Quantum mechanics of course disagrees.

And FYI - God does not criminalise people for feelings. Actions in Islam has 3 phases: Thought (feelings), speech and then physical action.

Thought (such as, I really want to kill Joe Bloggs) is not a sin in Islam. In fact, if you didn't turn that thought into total action, then you are actually rewarded. So thought can never be sin in Islamic philosophy.

Lord Foul wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Being a Muslim one cant cherry pick. You either take it fully or you don't believe in it.

isnt that a problem then sexy??

after all the koran bangs on about chopping pagans up (in as many words)

if you conclude that that was for a "specific time" are you not then cherry picking or, alternatively "interpreting" (which amounts to the same thing since it quite clearly states that what it says is for all time)?????

As SM said - the whole of the Quran.

There are times of war when the verses of fighting the Quraish (Meccan pagans) applied.

But once the Muslims took over Mecca, the verses of not forcing Islam on pagans applied.

Historical context.

All the above is irrelevant to me Zack.
What is relevant is what kind of supremne intelligence this deity is.
Now I see that it only has conditional love, which nobody would wish on any relationship. It allows hate and vengence to supercede love to enact the worst punishemnt onto people and again by criminalizing something we would never make punishable ourselves, a belief or love of our creator, ie everyones parents. Like I say, what parent would wish to be so angered over the creation out of love their own child to then commit the most unimaginable pain onto them? Just because they did not share the same belief. So yes it does crminalize feelings, if I do not love or believe that is crminalizing a feeling and emotion.Even if they committed a horrendus crime, how many here would wish to torture them daily? Some may wish to kill or disown them, but we create life out of love.

Again something so intelligent would never be conflicted or clouded by emotions, they would do what was right by people. Again I firmly believe the more intelligent we become, the less need we would have emotions, as reason would be at that was needed as to foing what is right. As to harm people would be wrong as we know to hurt people is wrong. If hurting and vengence is stronger than forgiveness and love, then such a being lacks intelligence and reason. To want to make anyone suffer is very much evil, as most ofn the time, we certainly do not wish or want harm to anyone. Anger can cloud that, but who wants to love a God driven by angry emotions? The worst of all is again apostacy within your faith, as it certainly contradicts with the verse on no compulsion in religion.

What you have to ask is yourself is the creation really at fault for the failings of the creator?

You clearly have a lot of issues with the big guy in the sky, albeit imaginary in your mind. Hmm!

I don't really share any of your concerns. I don't see an imperfect diety, in fact the complete opposite.

Like I've been trying to say, we have very different philosophies. For me, yours is too complex. Mine is about simplicity.

I hope you find peace. This is obviously an issue that takes up lot of your time.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:You clearly have a lot of issues with the big guy in the sky, albeit imaginary in your mind. Hmm!

I don't really share any of your concerns.  I don't see an imperfect diety, in fact the complete opposite.

Like I've been trying to say, we have very different philosophies. For me, yours is too complex. Mine is about simplicity.

I hope you find peace. This is obviously an issue that takes up lot of your time.

i have no issue because I know the views claimed in the abrahamic faiths conflict and very much are the imagination of humans. Like I say it fails to grasp how something intelligent would be and even more so gives off a very ancient view of such intelligence. Even more so how fear is very much played off that denies the ability to freely love, and allows only for people to believe out of fear. So this is why I question the ethics based off around how this deity which is not just in Islam, but all 3 abrahamic faiths. Again how can you love something that inflicts pain and only offers love conditionally to you, through making you fear that if you do not love and believe you will suffer eternally.

No hard feelins Zack and I am and always have been at peace since I realised that religions are man made.
I cannot rule out the possibility of a supreme intelligence, but like I say, to me if it was ruled by such negative emtions and did commit to such harm and punishment to people, I could never class that as something to be loved, but to view with total distain. I enjoy reading about theology and philosophy.

If this is your belief good luck to you, I just fear more so for the problematic time ahead for many Muslims, as I fear this is only the beginning of the divide within the faith of islam, which I predict will last for at least 25 to 40 years.

P.S I very much like the concept and belief that Eddie has of a deity.
It harmless and is based only on love.
But then that is the mind of a woman, which truth be told, if women had been allowed to write their beliefs on religion years ago, I doubt we would have many problems with religion through the ages.

Raggamuffin wrote:It would be like the New Kadampa Tradition saying that the Dalai Lama is not a Buddhist.

Actually some Buddhist Sect Do not regard Tibetan Buddhists as Buddhists since they still eat meat

And some Buddhist Sect really dislike the Dali Lama, the one I stayed with didn't like him at all. the Dalai Lama's variant of Buddhism is still quite sexist and women cannot achieve higher positions. (they can be nuns but not monks or anything higher)
the Temple I stayed at had a female Abbott   So possibly some personal offense.... even though that is very un-Buddha like