Christianity is False and Immoral.

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

pride created satan but hey you don't want to be bored with facts...

people choose heaven or hell, no one makes them go to either..

and who made Satan? and who is omnipotent and omniscient
it is the Christian god that does this
YES god makes them go

are you saying you are free to choose to go to heaven?
You cant tell the dumb fuck to go sit on a dick and you are still free to go where you choose? or does god treat you like a fucking moral less 3 year old with a pet hamster.
He is pathetic if he was a human we would be talking about how shitty he was and Even in a human we would not accept such juvenile threats and gos makes.
he is like the Kim Jong il of deities.. Love me or I will punish you cause i am so pathetically insecure Look at me I m all powerful but if you don't constantly tell me how great i am I'll torture you forever out of spite because i so insecure.
God behaves like a spoiled toddler that needs smack on the backside

.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

pride created satan but hey you don't want to be bored with facts...

people choose heaven or hell, no one makes them go to either..

and who made Satan? and who is omnipotent and omniscient
it is the Christian god that does this
YES god makes them go

are you saying you are free to choose to go to heaven?
You cant tell the dumb fuck to go sit on a dick and you are still free to go where you choose? or does god treat you like a fucking moral less 3 year old with a pet hamster.
He is pathetic if he was a human we would be talking about how shitty he was and Even in a human we would not accept such juvenile threats and gos makes.
he is like the Kim Jong il of deities.. Love me or I will punish you cause i am so pathetically insecure Look at me I m all powerful but if you don't constantly tell me how great i am I'll torture you forever out of spite because i so insecure.
God behaves like a spoiled toddler that needs smack on the backside

.

God created him yes but as with all his creations he gave free will, to be what they want to be, he never built robots.

by your reasoning do guns kill people or do people kill people?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

God created him yes but as with all his creations he gave free will, to be what they want to be, he never built robots.

by your reasoning do guns kill people or do people kill people?

If you create something and you know every action it will ever take and thought it will ever think, there's no way you can give it free will. To do that would mean giving it the capacity to surprise you, and nothing can surprise God.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

God created him yes but as with all his creations he gave free will, to be what they want to be, he never built robots.

by your reasoning do guns kill people or do people kill people?

If you create something and you know every action it will ever take and thought it will ever think, there's no way you can give it free will. To do that would mean giving it the capacity to surprise you, and nothing can surprise God.

Nemesis wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

If you create something and you know every action it will ever take and thought it will ever think, there's no way you can give it free will. To do that would mean giving it the capacity to surprise you, and nothing can surprise God.

Brilliant

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Nemesis wrote:


Brilliant

already answered it was actually quite a dumb statement...

Nemesis wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

already answered it was actually quite a dumb statement...

Your answered failed actually, and still now you fail to see why.

Anyway this will just be another case of your denial of the truth.

Hence boring

eddie wrote:I don't care what words or labels you use, I don't follow a religion.

eddie wrote:I don't care what words or labels you use, I don't follow a religion.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

eddie wrote:I don't care what words or labels you use, I don't follow a religion.

well said, i'm pretty sure a certain someone would deny the definition twat perfectly describes them yet we all know differently, just shows definitions are a movable feast...

Nemesis wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

well said, i'm pretty sure a certain someone would deny the definition twat perfectly describes them yet we all know differently, just shows definitions are a movable feast...

She has a case as she does not worship, so I can allow for reason in her argument

You do not have a leg to stand on, as you worship Jesus.

Even now you have a thread glorifying him.

That is worshiping him

Hence you follow a religion, yours is Christianity

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Nemesis wrote:


She has a case as she does not worship, so I can allow for reason in her argument

You do not have a leg to stand on, as you worship Jesus.

Even now you have a thread glorifying him.

That is worshiping him

Hence you follow a religion, yours is Christianity

I have a faith, it is in Jesus as the bible introduces him.

Nemesis wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I have a faith, it is in Jesus as the bible introduces him.

Never denied you have faith, but you follow a religion called christianity

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Nemesis wrote:


Never denied you have faith, but you follow a religion called christianity

I faith in Jesus as my Lord and saviour, I trust the bible as the source of information for Jesus.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

God created him yes but as with all his creations he gave free will, to be what they want to be, he never built robots.

by your reasoning do guns kill people or do people kill people?

If you create something and you know every action it will ever take and thought it will ever think, there's no way you can give it free will. To do that would mean giving it the capacity to surprise you, and nothing can surprise God.

free will doesn't have to surprise you. God had plans ready for what did occur..

Ben_Reilly wrote:Ooh, let's take that even deeper -- if you have god-like powers, that includes the knowledge of all your future actions for eternity. Thus you would have no free will of your own -- your (eternal) life would be set up on a track that, if you deviated from it in the slightest, would prove that you don't have perfect knowledge in the first place.

Nemesis wrote:

eddie wrote:I don't care what words or labels you use, I don't follow a religion.

So best you ask for the definition to be changed, just to benefit you then Eddie

eddie wrote:

Nemesis wrote:


So best you ask for the definition to be changed, just to benefit you then Eddie

I'm not bothered enough Didge? I just said I didn't care.
I am comfortable enough in my own skin to not have to battle something out over the use of a word

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Ooh, let's take that even deeper -- if you have god-like powers, that includes the knowledge of all your future actions for eternity. Thus you would have no free will of your own -- your (eternal) life would be set up on a track that, if you deviated from it in the slightest, would prove that you don't have perfect knowledge in the first place.

why does the knowledge of all possibilities negate free will?

eddie wrote:

Nemesis wrote:


So best you ask for the definition to be changed, just to benefit you then Eddie

I'm not bothered enough Didge? I just said I didn't care.
I am comfortable enough in my own skin to not have to battle something out over the use of a word

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

why does the knowledge of all possibilities negate free will?

Because it's not all possibilities. If it were possibilities, then God could be kept in suspense about what's going to happen next ("will he, won't he?"). But God's knowledge is perfect -- he doesn't just know what's possible, he knows exactly what will happen.

And, as I showed above, this knowledge must extend to God himself. So God knows everything he will ever do and is thus powerless to deviate from that -- either that or he does not know everything he will ever do, and thus his knowledge isn't perfect.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

why does the knowledge of all possibilities negate free will?

Because it's not all possibilities. If it were possibilities, then God could be kept in suspense about what's going to happen next ("will he, won't he?"). But God's knowledge is perfect -- he doesn't just know what's possible, he knows exactly what will happen.

And, as I showed above, this knowledge must extend to God himself. So God knows everything he will ever do and is thus powerless to deviate from that -- either that or he does not know everything he will ever do, and thus his knowledge isn't perfect.

Nemesis wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

why does the knowledge of all possibilities negate free will?

Because it's not all possibilities. If it were possibilities, then God could be kept in suspense about what's going to happen next ("will he, won't he?"). But God's knowledge is perfect -- he doesn't just know what's possible, he knows exactly what will happen.

And, as I showed above, this knowledge must extend to God himself. So God knows everything he will ever do and is thus powerless to deviate from that -- either that or he does not know everything he will ever do, and thus his knowledge isn't perfect.

He believes that the possibilities are not fixed, which would then render his deity as not all knowing, as you rightly say above, if God is perfect he would know which possibility is chosen every time.
He is basically saying to you his deity is not perfect.
So I am happy with that Ben.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

why does the knowledge of all possibilities negate free will?

Because it's not all possibilities. If it were possibilities, then God could be kept in suspense about what's going to happen next ("will he, won't he?"). But God's knowledge is perfect -- he doesn't just know what's possible, he knows exactly what will happen.

And, as I showed above, this knowledge must extend to God himself. So God knows everything he will ever do and is thus powerless to deviate from that -- either that or he does not know everything he will ever do, and thus his knowledge isn't perfect.

who said God was ever in suspense??

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

who said God was ever in suspense??

Certainly not me. I'm saying if he ever was in suspense, he wouldn't be all-knowing. And if he was never in suspense, then he can't have given anything free will.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

eddie wrote:

Nemesis wrote:


So best you ask for the definition to be changed, just to benefit you then Eddie

I'm not bothered enough Didge? I just said I didn't care.
I am comfortable enough in my own skin to not have to battle something out over the use of a word

well said, people like to label others it makes them feel more secure like they know what to expect, I think this is where all that "born again" label crap comes out with some folks..

eddie wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

well said, people like to label others it makes them feel more secure like they know what to expect, I think this is where all that "born again" label crap comes out with some folks..

I think labels are restricting, misleading and actually create problems.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

who said God was ever in suspense??

Certainly not me. I'm saying if he ever was in suspense, he wouldn't be all-knowing. And if he was never in suspense, then he can't have given anything free will.

as far as I know he is never surprised or in suspense as he is all knowing... If God can see every any possible course of action and it's results it does not mean you cannot make any choice you like.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:


as far as I know he is never surprised or in suspense as he is all knowing... If God can see every any possible course of action and it's results it does not mean you cannot make any choice you like.

If you claim to be all-powerful and to know how everything is going to happen, and  you make a list for your morning routine that goes:

1) Brush teeth

2) Eat breakfast

3) Take a shower

4) Get dressed

... but then you eat breakfast before you brush your teeth, then you don't know how everything's going to happen, and thus you don't know everything.

... or if you follow the list to the T, you don't have the power to surprise yourself, thus you're not all-powerful.

For another example: Could God make an object that has a name he doesn't know? If he can, he doesn't know everything, and if he can't, there are limits to his powers.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:


as far as I know he is never surprised or in suspense as he is all knowing... If God can see every any possible course of action and it's results it does not mean you cannot make any choice you like.

If you claim to be all-powerful and to know how everything is going to happen, and  you make a list for your morning routine that goes:

1) Brush teeth

2) Eat breakfast

3) Take a shower

4) Get dressed

... but then you eat breakfast before you brush your teeth, then you don't know how everything's going to happen, and thus you don't know everything.

... or if you follow the list to the T, you don't have the power to surprise yourself, thus you're not all-powerful.

For another example: Could God make an object that has a name he doesn't know? If he can, he doesn't know everything, and if he can't, there are limits to his powers.

the very idea of giving us freedom of will means he limits his own power, the fact that you can limit your own power does not mean you have no power or you are not all powerful it just means you wield it as you choose.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

the very idea of giving us freedom of will means he limits his own power, the fact that you can limit your own power does not mean you have no power or you are not all powerful it just means you wield it as you choose.

That's one of the biggest song-and-dance routines I've ever seen here.

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

is there a God who tortures people for eternity?

according to Christianity yes
God made hell, God made Satan
and good freethinking people go to hell to get tortured for all eternity  
it clearly says so in the bible

Lone Wolf wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

is there a God who tortures people for eternity?

according to Christianity yes
God made hell, God made Satan
and good freethinking people go to hell to get tortured for all eternity  
it clearly says so in the bible

NO....

IT doesn't say that in "the Bible", veya !!!

AT LEAST not in the 3 different versions that I've read..

BUT, than again ~ You haven't actually read the Bible yet for yourself yet, have you !

SEEMS to me that you're simply taking Atheist publications, websites, manifests and documents at 'face value', without actually bothering to verify their various claims for yourself..    

Revelation 21:8 ESV

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:15 ESV  

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46 ESV  

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 10:28 ESV  
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9:43-48 ESV  

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

2 Corinthians 11:14 ESV

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

John 8:44 ESV

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

2 Corinthians 11:3 ESV

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Revelation 12:9 ESV

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Genesis 1:1-31 ESV

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ...

Genesis 1:1 ESV

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Romans 1:20 ESV

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

John 1:1 ESV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Psalm 121:2 ESV  

My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth.

Psalm 104:24 ESV

O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.

Psalm 14:1 ESV

To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:all choices have consequences, it is called life..

If you choose not to believe you choose not to spend eternity with God.

It seems non believers want to have their cake and eat it.

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:all choices have consequences, it is called life..

If you choose not to believe you choose not to spend eternity with God.

It seems non believers want to have their cake and eat it.

why would i want to spend eternity with that arsehole      

when i can re enter the dreaming

veya_victaous wrote:Because i seek knowledge where ever it can be found and Christians do go on about their bible a lot...
there is some good bits
In fact most of the references directly to Jesus are pretty good
You will note Jesus pretty much always says be nice to each other, it is other jackasses that say about other rules.
but there is a lot of shit in there also which just boils down to ancient people trying to explain stuff they didn't know.


Wolf obviously needs to read it again as he seem to have missed or forgotten large chunks of it before accusing others of having not read it

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Because i seek knowledge where ever it can be found and Christians do go on about their bible a lot...
there is some good bits
In fact most of the references directly to Jesus are pretty good
You will note Jesus pretty much always says be nice to each other, it is other jackasses that say about other rules.
but there is a lot of shit in there also which just boils down to ancient people trying to explain stuff they didn't know.


Wolf obviously needs to read it again as he seem to have missed or forgotten large chunks of it before accusing others of having not read it

the law is only meant as a standard of judgement for non believers, Jesus does say to get along but he does not say you can believe what ever you like ad still get to heaven...

veya_victaous wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
the law is only meant as a standard of judgement for non believers, Jesus does say to get along but he does not say you can believe what ever you like ad still get to heaven...

Yeah but Jesus was just some middle eastern dude 2000 years ago  I do not for a second believe he is the son of the most illogical 'god' construct man has ever created... AND even if i did believe in the 2nd book of the trilogy the 3rd book explains that Jesus is son of god because we are ALL children of god which makes much more sense

Jesus happened to have some good ideas and You wouldn't know if Jesus did say it since we don't have anything written by Jesus only what Paul and other wished to retell of his message

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Yeah but Jesus was just some middle eastern dude 2000 years ago  I do not for a second believe he is the son of the most illogical 'god' construct man has ever created... AND even if i did believe in the 2nd book of the trilogy the 3rd book explains that Jesus is son of god because we are ALL children of god which makes much more sense

Jesus happened to have some good ideas and You wouldn't know if Jesus did say it since we don't have anything written by Jesus only what Paul and other wished to retell of his message

well if he wasn't who he said he would have known that he was heading for the most painful and humiliating death that could ever have been invented, he also inspired people to follow and risk and endure the same death, so he certainly had something about him..

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
well if he wasn't who he said he would have known that he was heading for the most painful and humiliating death that could ever have been invented, he also inspired people to follow and risk and endure the same death, so he certainly had something about him..

Did Jesus know he was heading for a painful death though?
You are only going off what the writers of the Gospels, that is the ones included in the bible "claim" HF. That means the writers could have added this part to the story to make it seem how divine Jesus was. They have written in hindsight to an event, one that has no outside sources that corroborate many of the claims. Hence why most of the stories believed is down to faith.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

Did Jesus know he was heading for a painful death though?
You are only going off what the writers of the Gospels, that is the ones included in the bible "claim" HF. That means the writers could have added this part to the story to make it seem how divine Jesus was. They have written in hindsight to an event, one that has no outside sources that corroborate many of the claims. Hence why most of the stories believed is down to faith.

of course he knew it was a fairly common practice for his time, the Romans had a tendency to be very brutal...

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
of course he knew it was a fairly common practice for his time, the Romans had a tendency to be very brutal...

That is hearsay.

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:



That is hearsay.

it is not heresay, it was a well documented form of killing, I believe josephus mentions the crucifxion of Jesus...