They are simply "Trying to Save Israel from itself...."

A few days ago I was complaining about U.S. President Obama unfairly blaming the lack of a two-state solution on Israel, and I was wondering aloud how the U.S. could even contemplate signing with Iran a deal that allows any Iranian nuclear capability at all.  A friend helpfully observed, “You know, the U.S. is simply trying to save Israel from itself!”  And to further enrich my geo-political knowledge, I was told that many Americans, “even Jews”, agree with that!

This is how the rationale goes:


Israelis need a two-state solution, but they don’t seem to know it!
Due to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, sooner or later, Israel will have to annex the West Bank and become an Arab state, but – guess what – the Israelis don’t know it!
Israel needs peace in the region, and signing a nuclear agreement with Iran is a big part of it, but – surprise, surprise – the Israelis don’t know that either!
So it turns out that U.S. policies in the Middle East are geared towards gently forcing Israelis to make the decisions that they are simply incapable of making on their own.  Aha!  Makes perfect sense!  But wait a minute…

The U.S.?  The country that has the most ridiculous, complicated, and inefficient medical system in the world?  The country where a homophobic Defense of Marriage Act was passed almost 20 years ago, where no government was able to repeal it, and where politicians had to rely on the Supreme Court to partly rescind it?  The country where many schools teach that evolution is “just a theory”?  The country where the political system is so antiquated and ineffective that it frequently leads to government impotence and gridlock?

Perhaps Israelis should save Americans from themselves by stridently lobbying Americans to make health care, human rights, education, and election reforms!  (This is not to say that the U.S. has uniquely poor policies.  In many ways, it is better than most, and it is the leader in some fields, but no democracy is perfect, and no foreign government has the right to dictate to a democracy how to run its internal affairs.)

If Americans must dictate to other countries, why don’t they try to save Saudis from themselves by loudly defending women’s rights in Saudi Arabia, just as they loudly denounce Israel’s West Bank policies?  Or women’s rights in Iran?  Or anywhere else in the Arab / Muslim world?  Why don’t Americans try to save Palestinians from themselves by pressuring them to replace terrorism and despotism with human rights and democracy?

But no, it turns out that only Israelis are naïve enough to require saving from their own incompetence!  Yes, Israel, the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, the country with by far the most inventions per capita, and the country that thrives despite being the consistent target of almost seven decades of hate, wars, and terrorism!

And the U.S. is not alone in performing this charitable work!  Sweden, France, the U.K., and practically everyone in the world is confident that they can save Israelis from themselves!  Israel is one lucky country!

It is tempting and rewarding to advise and be condescending to Israelis.  Is it not?  Most people will acquiesce and give you a knowing look.  You will be in full intellectual congruence with the United Nations, no less!  Antisemites from Iran to Venezuela, and passing by downtown Paris and London, will praise you!  Anti-Zionist and racist students and academics from all over the world will think that you are audacious and brilliant!  You will look like a progressive and courageous intellectual who is not afraid to tell the truth!  Won’t you?

Or maybe you will look like a gutless fool who is too scared to lecture anyone except a small country that won’t say much because it believes in free speech and the free marketplace of ideas.  Maybe you will look like an arrogant hypocrite who thrives on appeasing dimwits, homophobes, misogynists, racists, tyrants, and terrorists.  Maybe you will look like a naïve bigot who thinks that pandering to antisemites is the solution the Middle East’s problems.

But what do I know!  I am just an Arab.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/they-are-simply-trying-to-save-israel-from-itself/


Do you know what else I find the biggest hypocrisy over how some Americans are behaving in regards to all of this, is its own settler program that engulfed the entire indegeneous Native American Indian lands. This program has been continuing for centuries and unlike Israel that has formed peace agreements, they keep them unlike the US Governements.

http://broken-treaties-opportunity-race.tumblr.com/

I mean the US is the least able to make any views on self determination to the Native American Indians, but where is the left champion this cause.

I thought maybe you had some solutions when I started reading.  But it appears this is just another attempt at America-bashing.  Oh well...

Not that I mind as an American.  But certain argument forms are not intended to be productive and this is one of them.  These arguments tear down, with no attempt to build up...Oh, you think that's bad, well this is just as bad...

The Middle East is in dire need of solutions.  There's enough general noise in the background.

That said, I agree that America should stay out of it. The Middle East is half a world away and it is just not our problem. Fortunately, America is in a position of paralysis on the issue, what with Republicans refusing to govern or legislate war powers during a black President's administration. So, no worries mate.

I see the irony was completely lost on the lefty in the context of the article.
It also shows how some Americans are utterly hypocritical.
Lets face it the entire country of America was created by centuries of settlement programms and the breaking of every single treaty made with the American Indians, but hey, that is not important to the left as it completely shows up their hypocrisy.

Brasidas wrote:I see the irony was completely lost on the lefty in the context of the article.
It also shows how some Americans are utterly hypocritical.
Lets face it the entire country of America was created by centuries of settlement programms and the breaking of every single treaty made with the American Indians, but hey, that is not important to the left as it completely shows up their hypocrisy.

Read the last paragraph of my post. No worries mate.

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:I see the irony was completely lost on the lefty in the context of the article.
It also shows how some Americans are utterly hypocritical.
Lets face it the entire country of America was created by centuries of settlement programms and the breaking of every single treaty made with the American Indians, but hey, that is not important to the left as it completely shows up their hypocrisy.

Read the last paragraph of my post.  No worries mate.

Which proves you are no liberal or adhere to liberal values, as any nation devoid of Liberal values is a problem to a Liberal.
You either stand for Liberal principles or you do not.
No worries mate

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Read the last paragraph of my post.  No worries mate.

Which proves you are no liberal or adhere to liberal values, as any nation devoid of Liberal values is a problem to a Liberal.
You either stand for Liberal principles or you do not.
No worries mate

Didge, I keep trying to get you to focus on the issue, but you keep changing the subject to talk about me. I am of no consequence; Israel and the Middle East are in dire need of attention.

More evidence that conservatives are unable to reason, and thus incapable of governing. All they know are simplistic solutions, like rhetoric and war. They live by cramps and bowel urges.

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


Which proves you are no liberal or adhere to liberal values, as any nation devoid of Liberal values is a problem to a Liberal.
You either stand for Liberal principles or you do not.
No worries mate

Didge, I keep trying to get you to focus on the issue, but you keep changing the subject to talk about me.  I am of no consequence; Israel and the Middle East are in dire need of attention.

More evidence that conservatives are unable to reason, and thus incapable of governing.  All they know are simplistic solutions, like rhetoric and war.  They live by cramps and bowel urges.  

You do not decided what the issue is, which I keep trying to tell you.
Liberal values is the issue here, in regards to people supporting two regimes that do not have them in Hamas and Fatah, in fact their views are based on discrmination and inequality. It proves you have no understanding or ability to reason on world issues, which is typical really. America as a nation through it policies create most of the mess in the region and now you advocate to turn with your tails between your legs, which is about the most cowardly policy you can get.
Typical of the left, create most of the mess and expect others to clean this up, hence why anyone rational would not listening to the reasoning of the left.

That doesn't even make sense. I'll come back when others have something to say.

Original Quill wrote:That doesn't even make sense.  I'll come back when others have something to say.

Of course it makes sense because the fact is, with America it has created most of the problems with its policies, like it of not, these are the facts.

If might makes right.. (basically the logic Brasidas is using to justify Israel stealing land)
Then Israel has been told to stop by the USA which is right by the virtue of it's might

veya_victaous wrote:If might makes right.. (basically the logic Brasidas is using to justify Israel stealing land)
Then Israel has been told to stop by the USA which is right by the virtue of it's might  

Never claimed it as right but the very fact your nation and America are formed from the very fact of settlements, to the point where the indigenous have no self-determination of a nation for themselves
It shows the hypocrisy of some of the left.
Its like where I certainly advocate the right to Palestine to have a state, I would never back a leading Palestinian body or power forming a nation where its laws were at odds with the equality and well being of its citizens.

well yeah our nations were formed during the period of British Rule when clearly "Might made Right" was the Openly practised policy, there has never been a decent moral justification for the actions of the British empire.

veya_victaous wrote:well yeah our nations were formed during the period of British Rule when clearly "Might made Right" was the Openly practised policy, there has never been a decent moral justification for the actions of the British empire.

Not so much America, they fought for independence and there certainly was not 50 states back then.
Even still we are in fact talking about today, as what self determination to a nation do the indigenous people of each land have?

the same as me??
the statement does not make sense they are Australian citizens now just like everyone else down here. it does not matter who or where your parents come from

veya_victaous wrote:the same as me??
the statement does not make sense they are Australian citizens now just like everyone else down here. it does not matter who or where your parents come from

How about they decide their own self-determination and not one you or I should put the Australian governments have decided for them.

who are they?
they are not separate people, literally the majority are mixed blood and are part of the Australian community they vote with the rest of us.
Aboriginals ARE Australians, the growing opinion is to acknowledge them as our founders and remove the union jack and replace it with the aboriginal flag.


Desert dwelling aboriginals are a minority of aboriginals. they still get to vote. they have the same freedom they had before (a lot has been restored to them since the 80's)... the problem is the UN says that their traditional life is poverty and not acceptable and we need to build them houses something that does not exist in Aboriginal culture which then destroys there way of life, as to live in those areas You need to be nomadic which the aboriginals of that area always were. it is the UN forcing settlement and notions of ownership and property onto the aboriginal, the problem is the 'concept of ownership' is Contradictory with Aboriginal culture they cannot co-exists they are fundamentally opposed philosophies... it would be much nicer if we did follow the aboriginal concepts but the world doesn't. the best I can translate them to western thinking is 'you own it while you hold it and need it if someone else needs it then it is theirs' which is totally incompatible with capitalism.

Holy crap on a cracker.
Ben I have to go, but can you explain to Veya, what self-determination is, because he just does not grasp this and is deciding for people himself.

Night Veya

umm i don't decide shit
I have 1 vote like every other citizen.
you don't seem to grasp most aboriginals are not distinguishable from any other Australian.

What ethnicity are these people ?


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/no-so-black-and-white/story-e6frg8h6-1226305047298

so unless you expect aboriginals to get a tattoo or some other nazi like way of making them separate.... HOW??? or are you going to only allow full bloods? can you see how pretending they are separate is just a naive thing Brits do to make themselves feel better... Aboriginals are the First Australians. The rest of us have joined them