White House warns Netanyahu Palestinian 'occupation must end'

Original Quill wrote:Yes, I agree.  This is probably the greatest flip-flop in the history of politics.

Moreover, whereas in the past support for Israel in the US was bi-partisan and totally above the fray, Netanyahu has managed for the first time to insert Israel directly in the breach of what is, incidentally, probably the worst political battle in the history of the US.  Now Israel is forever identified with the Republicans, and the Republicans are about to pass into the great beyond.

"Ahhhh...what does one say,
When the love affair is over.

Brasidas wrote:Here watch the interview for yourself:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/21/president-obama-_n_6915690.html

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:Here watch the interview for yourself:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/21/president-obama-_n_6915690.html

I saw it.  It was all over.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Yes, I agree.  This is probably the greatest flip-flop in the history of politics.

Moreover, whereas in the past support for Israel in the US was bi-partisan and totally above the fray, Netanyahu has managed for the first time to insert Israel directly in the breach of what is, incidentally, probably the worst political battle in the history of the US.  Now Israel is forever identified with the Republicans, and the Republicans are about to pass into the great beyond.

"Ahhhh...what does one say,
When the love affair is over.

This is all of play of words to entice and win over Iran in the nuke talks , nothing more and most people can see that.
The US is not about to withdraw support from Israel and even Obama made that clear.
What he did rightlyu say and what I back is the formation of a two state solution.
People jump poorly onto what OBama said as if the alliance is going to end.
He supports 100% the right of Israel to exist and to defend its people.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I saw it.  It was all over.

Then you will know your first post was uitter nonsense then.

Brasidas wrote:Here watch the interview for yourself:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/21/president-obama-_n_6915690.html

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

This is all of play of words to entice and win over Iran in the nuke talks , nothing more and most people can see that.
The US is not about to withdraw support from Israel and even Obama made that clear.
What he did rightlyu say and what I back is the formation of a two state solution.
People jump poorly onto what OBama said as if the alliance is going to end.
He supports 100% the right of Israel to exist and to defend its people.

I do think it is the end of an era.  You don't step into the most fundamental rift in American politics and not get scorched.  The beauty of the way Israel played it in the past was, you don't drive a wedge between highly- liberal American Jews, and conservatives.  America, much more than Europe, would have gone on with both sides in support of Israel.

Netanyahu has just managed to fook that up royally.  He chose the one most fundamental political issue--racism--and jumped in with both feet.  Now, in the confusion, the public will liken Israel with those white cops who indiscriminately gun down blacks...things like that.  Or, maybe Trayvon Martin.  Israel is now Republican.

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:Here watch the interview for yourself:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/21/president-obama-_n_6915690.html

Events are beyond Obama even.  Even Obama is trying to cover Netanyahu's horseshit.

This damage was to the stellar position Israel once held with support from both left and right.  Obama works for us.  We make up our own minds.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Events are beyond Obama even.  Even Obama is trying to cover Netanyahu's horseshit.

This damage was to the stellar position Israel once held with support from both left and right.  Obama works for us.  We make up our own minds.

Now you are back tracking Quill to your original post after I showed what he really said and clearly you just watched it

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

Now you are back tracking Quill to your original post after I showed what he really said and clearly you just watched it

Yes, you are quite the hero, didge.  But it isn't about you.

Netanyahu just broke all the Christmas ornaments on the tree.  You can't analyze this in terms of partisan politics.  The point is, Israel once enjoyed a position above American partisan politics.  That's the trance he just broke.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Yes, you are quite the hero, didge.  But it isn't about you.

Netanyahu just broke all the Christmas ornaments on the tree.  You can't analyze this in terms of partisan politics.  The point is, Israel once enjoyed a position above American partisan politics.  That's the trance he just broke.

Israel will continue to have the full support of the US, you just do not understand how strong that is and as seen it is as strong as ever, what is weakened is the present relationship between obmama and Netanyahu.

Two different things altogether

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

Israel will continue to have the full support of the US, you just do not understand how strong that is and as seen it is as strong as ever, what is weakened is the present relationship between obmama and Netanyahu.

Two different things altogether

You are talking to an American.  How long has it been since you have been here?

This is not just about Israel...it's about soiling the Israeli linen by mixing it into American politics...American politics of the most distasteful sort.  Racism.  The core here is that Republicans hate Dr. Obama because he is black...that is the source of the complete shut-down of government by Republicans.  For six years, that is all that the American public has had shouted at them: black, black, black...we've got to hate President Obama because he is not one of us...he is a black man!

Now comes Netanyahu and shouts: ME TOO!!  I want to talk to Congress and say how much I oppose the President.  Netanyahu probably had no idea the shitpile he was stepping into, but distilled down to just the visible points, what the American public heard was: "ME TOO...and, I wanna be over here with the Republicans, hating Obama!  The average person does not have a whole lot of time for detail.  What the American public sees is, ME TOO, OBAMA IS BLACK, AND I HATE HIM...AND THAT'S WHY I'M SPEAKING TO THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS.  It doesn't help that Speaker Boehner is accepting a reciprocal invitation to visit Israel.  Looks to the American people that a new love affair is brewing.

Politics is perception, didge.  This is the lens through which the American public has been viewing the Republican Party for for the past six and a half years.  Obviously, Netanyahu hadn't been here during all that time, and now he is swimming backwards desperately.

Have you been here in the last six years?  I don't mean a weekend in Orlando.  Have you been watching what is going on in American politics?  Do you understand how deep it runs?  Do you follow the themes everyday?  This was a catastrophic move for Israel.

Original Quill wrote:Well, all I can say is you are sounding disparate there didge.  Squirrely…like jumping back and forth swinging and missing.
Subjective babble

Yes, I am pretty confident that I can prognosticate on America politically.  I have a doctorate in political theory.  I taught politics to American students on the university level for years.  I have written on the subject.  And I have been paying attention.
Well judging by the amount of times I have corrected you on your own history I take your view that you think you know something is poor to say the least

You keep reiterating this: “America will never give up defending the rights of Israel and backs a two state solution as I do,” but you sound rather shaky.  Where are your facts?
I posted them already in the words of Obama which clearly debunked your views in regards to Obama, unless of course you think he is lying?

First, Israel has already given up on the two-state solution, as Netanyahu will place “conditions” in the way until the moon has been colonized.   That has become as clear as day given his recent, rather transparent flip-flop.  
It is the Palestinians that have continually stopped any chance of a two state solution, so on that front we know they want more than a two state solution. So you expect Israel not to have conditions only or is only Palestine only allowed to make conditions?
That is absurd to think otherwise

Second, you provide no facts because you have none.  Were you watching events in the last three weeks?  It was a catastrophe for Israel.  The world no longer believes Israel is serious about the two-state solution.  And, America has become convinced that Israel is an avid Republican who hates the black President.  Catastrophe!

Brasides wrote:Obama was very clear in his support for Israel even though he is at odds rightly with Netanyahu.

Original Quill wrote:

Brasides wrote:Obama was very clear in his support for Israel even though he is at odds rightly with Netanyahu.

Fat chance.  Lol.  What Dr.Obama is clear about doesn't matter.  He will be retired in less than two years.  This is an insult that will be revisited and repaid by others.

Israel is now a card carrying member of the Republican Party.  Let's start there...it's easier recognizing that.  What Netanyahu has said is that the the core principles that the US was working for are nill.  Zip.  Zero.

Well, at least that makes it easier...we don't have to fret over losing what was never there in the first place.  Netanyahu makes our job easier.  The hiatus given to us by this is perhaps opportune.  This uncoupling of Israel from the Democratic Party could be the start of a new era in American policy in the Middle East.

One thing is for certain, there will no doubt be a lot fewer gifts under the Hanukkah tree for Israel in coming years.

Original Quill wrote:Blah, blah, blah, blah...  You are a funny man.

The plain fact is that I live over here, and you live over there.  I read the newspapers over here, and you read the newspapers over there.  I vote over here, and you vote over there.  The plain fact is that I will be the 'decider' over here, as GWB says, and you will not.

Unless you can say with absolute confidence that a Republican will be elected President in 2016--Lol, and good luck with that: your choices will be Ted Cruz or Michelle Bachmann--a Democrat will be elected and thus tend to the mess that Netanyahu has created for Israel.  

Animosities aside, what Netanyahu has done is redeem the Democrats from the curse of obligation.  Nobody's going to take revenge.  But neither is Israel going to get anymore F/A-18's.

Ta...I think I'll go vote now.  

Original Quill wrote:Dream on, sweet child.



Have you looked at any of the polls?

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Dream on, sweet child.



Have you looked at any of the polls?

I do not have my head stuck in the sand like yourself Quill even more if you think the Democrats will win, they again have fucked up big time, again not what I wanted.
But hey if you need to resort to calling me a child it shows this is all you have left to come back with, it just gets boring schooling you on topics you understanding very little about, so I will take that as a compliment for a child to keep educating you.

CNN wrote:Poll: Hillary Clinton still tops in 2016

Washington (CNN)Hillary Clinton continues to be a dominant force heading into the 2016 presidential election, according to a new CNN/ORC poll. The former secretary of state maintains a broad lead over the field of potential Democratic challengers she could face in a nomination contest and sizable advantages over the leading contenders from the Republican side in general election match-ups.

Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush tops the possible field for the Republican Party's nomination race, followed by Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee and former neurosurgeon Ben Carson all in a tight cluster.

But none of the top candidates in this field gets within 10 points of Hillary Clinton in a series of hypothetical general election matchups.

Rand Paul comes closest, with 43% saying they'd be more likely to back him while 54% choose Clinton. The two candidates who currently top the GOP field, Bush and Walker, match up equally against Clinton, with each carrying 40% to her 55%. Huckabee gets 41% to Clinton's 55% and Carson has 40% to Clinton's 56%.

The overwhelming percentage of Jewish voters, and donors, are liberal and will never vote for a Republican. The progressives who are bothered by Israel’s conservative government care a lot more about other issues, such as the economy and social issues. Support for the government is strong among what people close to Mrs. Clinton estimate to be about a 10 percent sliver of wealthy and influential moderate Democratic Jews for whom Israel is a priority, and could be a reason to withhold their financial backing, if not support a Republican candidate.

Brasidas wrote:One Poll.
PMSL laughing Quill showing you really are quite the idiot it seems
Thanks for the laugh though if that is what you arfe going off.

Brasidas wrote:Oh and the coup de grace for poor Quill.

Even if Hilary won, who are some of her major backers Quill?

The overwhelming percentage of Jewish voters, and donors, are liberal and will never vote for a Republican. The progressives who are bothered by Israel’s conservative government care a lot more about other issues, such as the economy and social issues. Support for the government is strong among what people close to Mrs. Clinton estimate to be about a 10 percent sliver of wealthy and influential moderate Democratic Jews for whom Israel is a priority, and could be a reason to withhold their financial backing, if not support a Republican candidate.

I’d emphasize that when Horowitz talks about that 10 percent, those are pro-settlement Jews. They surely make up a lot more than 10 percent of donations to Democratic candidates. And they want no criticism of Israel. They are the reason that Hillary Clinton’s husband ran to George H.W. Bush’s right on the settlements in 1992, and won. They are the reason that Barack Obama railroaded a plank in the Democratic Party platform at the 2012 convention, calling Jerusalem the capital of Israel, in the face of a floor demonstration against the plank. He didn’t want to alienate Haim Saban.

Sorry what was you telling me about your all knowing knowledge of the US.

That has easily been exposed lol

I have never known a Jewish American, whether deeply religious or otherwise, who has ever had positive things to say about right-wing politicians telling them how to be Jewish. Note that it comes up a lot, because a good bit of American hard-right Christianity revolves around telling Jewish people what to think and why they should think it..."

Dr. Wald wrote:In their voting behavior, political identity and attitudes, American Jews are disproportionately clustered on the liberal/Democratic side of the political spectrum. The pattern has held more or less steady since the late 1920s. But we expect most affluent people to favor the party of the right. As a group, even allowing for individual differences, American Jews rank at or near the top on most measures of social class — education, income, occupational prestige and such.

Dr. Wald wrote:My account of American Jewish political behavior emphasizes the uniqueness of the American context. The U.S. Constitution follows a classic liberal model in separating citizenship and religion. Rather than rooting citizenship in blood or religion, the American system eliminates ethnic particularity as a condition for full membership in the political community.

This arrangement resonates powerfully with American Jews for practical reasons — it gives them a chance to participate as equals in a way they had not experienced elsewhere — and it differs radically from their historical experience as, at best, a “tolerated” minority whose status often changed on the whims of rulers.

American Jewish communities in the late 18th centuries celebrated the Constitution’s prohibition on religious tests in Article VI as their Magna Carta. Despite the passage of centuries, they have remained deeply attached to the idea of a secular state, believing that it accounts for their integration in what some have described as the “Kingdom of Kindness.”

Dr. Wald wrote:Representative King seems to assume that most American Jews are diehard Likudniks, when the evidence runs decidedly in the opposite direction. In fact, much of the estrangement of American Jews from the current Israeli government is rooted in concerns over the growing ethnic and religious nationalism of the right-wing bloc so evident in the Likud’s recent campaign against Israel’s Arab citizens.

Original Quill wrote:Hence, Israel floats farther and farther away from America.  As Netanyahu cuts the cords Israel loses a most important ally...just when it needs allies most.

I was listening, amused, to one pundit who was trying to summarize the relationship on TV.  He was saying, Israel needs the support of the US in the UN, in the world community, and militarily, and he went on to list several other things.  Then he said, an' the US needs Israel...er, um...because it needs a friend in the region...  

A friend?  Wasn't Israel just caught spying on the US in the Iranian talks?  The gap widens.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Hence, Israel floats farther and farther away from America.  As Netanyahu cuts the cords Israel loses a most important ally...just when it needs allies most.

I was listening, amused, to one pundit who was trying to summarize the relationship on TV.  He was saying, Israel needs the support of the US in the UN, in the world community, and militarily, and he went on to list several other things.  Then he said, an' the US needs Israel...er, um...because it needs a friend in the region...  

A friend?  Wasn't Israel just caught spying on the US in the Iranian talks?  The gap widens.

In your dreams it does, because again you forget they will never ever see israel for prey to the countries around them that hate them, but hey mayeb you want Israel to lose and then the only contry with liberal laws is then under Theocratic control and within a a few years the Jews wiped out.
I think you will find many American jews no matter their anger at Netanyahu would never leave Israel and its people in the lurch.
Was Israel caught, more Pallywood in action. How many times has the US been caught out spying on its friends and allies then Quill?

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

In your dreams it does, because again you forget they will never ever see israel for prey to the countries around them that hate them, but hey mayeb you want Israel to lose and then the only contry with liberal laws is then under Theocratic control and within a a few years the Jews wiped out.
I think you will find many American jews no matter their anger at Netanyahu would never leave Israel and its people in the lurch.
Was Israel caught, more Pallywood in action. How many times has the US been caught out spying on its friends and allies then Quill?

But didge, it's not about what you or I want.  Aren't we discussing reality here?  We were discussing the trend in America away from support for Israel.  We were discussing how Mr. Netanyahu has been instrumental in severing those friendships and ties.

Nor did I meant to over-emphasize the Jewish community in this discussion, except insofar as they are the community most expected to back Israel.  The fact is, Israel is losing its ties to it's most important ally, the American Liberal.  The Jewish community is most significant because it is core to the liberal cause in America, but the damage is to the whole liberal community.

Would you, as a supporter of Israel, want to rely upon the American evangelical community...the only other broad-based support group for Israel?  I would be very wary having that group on my side.  They overlap with the Tea Party, you know, and you are aware of how fickle they are.  It is conceivable that Israel could be launching a war on Iran just when the Tea Party decides to shut down the US government again.  Imagine that...Israeli war planes without petrol, and an empty car park at the Pentagon.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

But didge, it's not about what you or I want.  Aren't we discussing reality here?  We were discussing the trend in America away from support for Israel.  We were discussing how Mr. Netanyahu has been instrumental in severing those friendships and ties.

Nor did I meant to over-emphasize the Jewish community in this discussion, except insofar as they are the community most expected to back Israel.  The fact is, Israel is losing its ties to it's most important ally, the American Liberal.  The Jewish community is most significant because it is core to the liberal cause in America, but the damage is to the whole liberal community.

Would you, as a supporter of Israel, want to rely upon the American evangelical community...the only other broad-based support group for Israel?  I would be very wary having that group on my side.  They overlap with the Tea Party, you know, and you are aware of how fickle they are.  It is conceivable that Israel could be launching a war on Iran just when the Tea Party decides to shut down the US government again.  Imagine that...Israeli war planes without petrol, and an empty car park at the Pentagon.

But the fact is most American Jews back two states which means the back the right also of israel as a state two, which is the point you are missing and the point is no matter how angry they are of the present center right government under Netanyahu, the American jews would never abandomn Israel, no matter how badly you understand this point.
What you have to ask yourself this is, what do the American people want.

Brasidas wrote:Israel to continue to exist as the only Liberal democratic nation within the region of for this to be subjucated by a theocratic Muslim power which eradicates equality. Its a no brainer point really, even one that you can understand and the reality is if the US did withdraw its support this could be a reality, though as stated Israel would turn to others for support which would cost the US a major ally in the Middle East.
So no matter all the Rhetoric at the moment, and even if the US create palestine as a state which I support that they do, they will never as backed by Obama abandomed the defence of israel which you fal to grasp at every turn, which is why I have no concern to to turn to evangical religious idiots or the Tea Party. They are of no relevance

Lone Wolf wrote:

ISRAEL a "liberal democratic" country ???

I HAVE to laugh every time I see that often parroted Faux News/Murdoch press/Tea Party propaganda description !!!

ONLY people who truly don't understand the actual meaning of the term "Liberal" when used in a political context, would ever use it in connection with Israel, nor with any place in the Middle East..

ISRAEL has never really been a "liberal" state, while it's democracy has been slowly whittled away since the 1960s.