'We Won't Take Part in Occupation': Dozens of Teens Refuse to Enlist in Israeli Army in Letter to Netanyahu

'The army is carrying out the government's racist policy that violates basic human rights,' 63 teens write to Netanyahu and Israeli military chief Gadi Eisenkot

A group of 63 teens have publicly declared they will refuse to be drafted into the Israel army, Yedioth Ahronoth reported on Thursday morning.

“We have decided not to take part in the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people,” they wrote in a letter sent to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot and the defense and education ministers. “The ‘temporary’ situation has dragged on for 50 years, and we will not go on lending a hand.”

The high-schoolers criticized the government and the military in the letter. “The army is carrying out the government’s racist policy, which violates basic human rights and executes one law for Israelis and another law for Palestinians on the same territory,” they wrote.

The students also protested “intentional institutional incitement against Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line,” referring to the 1949 armistice line separating Israel from the West Bank, “and we here – draft-age boys and girls from different areas of the country and from different socioeconomic backgrounds – refuse to believe the system of incitement and to participate in the government’s arm of oppression and occupation.”

The letter called on others to reconsider being drafted, adding that intended to go around the country to recruit for their initiative.

“We refuse to be drafted and to serve in the army out of an obligation to values of peace, justice and equality, with the knowledge that there is another reality that we could create together,” they wrote. “We call on girls our age to ask themselves, will army service work toward this reality?”

The signatories include Matan Helman, 20, of Kibbutz Haogen, who is serving jail time because of his refusal to be drafted into the army.

In early December, the education ministry and the IDF announced that they were working on a plan to increase the number of draftees enlisting for combat service. Currently, enlistment rates are sinking and dropout rates stand at over 7,000 male and female soldiers annually.

read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.831626


Good on ya kids, talk to your friends and tell them the truth about what is going on. Don't let them become war criminals

War criminals?

My, sassy is desperate.

If they want to not fight, that is up to them, but I love your spin on now castigating all the IDF as war criminals.

What can i say, when Israel has the highest moral standards of any army.

What other army in the world, warns its enemies, of an impending attack, thus giving away the element of surprise?

Come on sassy, I know you are reading this?

Great tell the truth, tell the whole truth though . Tell everyone how the Palestinians have turnrd down so many peace plans, like the land for peace plan and all the others, tell how Palestinian leaders will never agree to any paeace plan and how they use their civilians as weapons of war and as human shields, tell them how Palestinian children are educated and raised in hate, that would be a start maybe when everyone knows all the truth - both sides of the truth it might make some progress to co-existance.

Vintage wrote:Great tell the truth, tell the whole truth though . Tell everyone how the Palestinians have turnrd down so many peace plans, like the land for peace plan and all the others, tell how Palestinian leaders will never agree to any paeace plan and how they use their civilians as weapons of war and as human shields, tell them how Palestinian children are educated and raised in hate, that would be a start maybe when everyone knows all the truth - both sides of the truth it might make some progress to co-existance.

+1

+2

Vintage wrote:Great tell the truth, tell the whole truth though . Tell everyone how the Palestinians have turnrd down so many peace plans, like the land for peace plan and all the others, tell how Palestinian leaders will never agree to any paeace plan and how they use their civilians as weapons of war and as human shields, tell them how Palestinian children are educated and raised in hate, that would be a start maybe when everyone knows all the truth - both sides of the truth it might make some progress to co-existance.

The Palestinians are among the greatest negotiators in the world. What do you expect?

Original Quill wrote:

Vintage wrote:Great tell the truth, tell the whole truth though . Tell everyone how the Palestinians have turnrd down so many peace plans, like the land for peace plan and all the others, tell how Palestinian leaders will never agree to any paeace plan and how they use their civilians as weapons of war and as human shields, tell them how Palestinian children are educated and raised in hate, that would be a start maybe when everyone knows all the truth - both sides of the truth it might make some progress to co-existance.

The Palestinians are among the greatest negotiators in the world.  What do you expect?

Such a piss taker

sassy wrote:'The army is carrying out the government's racist policy that violates basic human rights,' 63 teens write to Netanyahu and Israeli military chief Gadi Eisenkot

A group of 63 teens have publicly declared they will refuse to be drafted into the Israel army, Yedioth Ahronoth reported on Thursday morning.

“We have decided not to take part in the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people,” they wrote in a letter sent to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot and the defense and education ministers. “The ‘temporary’ situation has dragged on for 50 years, and we will not go on lending a hand.”

The high-schoolers criticized the government and the military in the letter. “The army is carrying out the government’s racist policy, which violates basic human rights and executes one law for Israelis and another law for Palestinians on the same territory,” they wrote.

The students also protested “intentional institutional incitement against Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line,” referring to the 1949 armistice line separating Israel from the West Bank, “and we here – draft-age boys and girls from different areas of the country and from different socioeconomic backgrounds – refuse to believe the system of incitement and to participate in the government’s arm of oppression and occupation.”

The letter called on others to reconsider being drafted, adding that intended to go around the country to recruit for their initiative.

“We refuse to be drafted and to serve in the army out of an obligation to values of peace, justice and equality, with the knowledge that there is another reality that we could create together,” they wrote. “We call on girls our age to ask themselves, will army service work toward this reality?”

The signatories include Matan Helman, 20, of Kibbutz Haogen, who is serving jail time because of his refusal to be drafted into the army.

In early December, the education ministry and the IDF announced that they were working on a plan to increase the number of draftees enlisting for combat service. Currently, enlistment rates are sinking and dropout rates stand at over 7,000 male and female soldiers annually.

read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.831626


Good on ya kids, talk to your friends and tell them the truth about what is going on.  Don't let them become war criminals

Gosh!!!
This could be rather awkward.

Next time the Arabs try an invasion, will they welcome them, or let others die defending them?

nicko wrote:Next time the Arabs try an invasion, will they welcome them,   or let others die defending them?

Snowflake mellenials

Nothing more

The vermin exist everywhere

smelly-bandit wrote:

nicko wrote:Next time the Arabs try an invasion, will they welcome them,   or let others die defending them?

Snowflake mellenials

Nothing more

The vermin exist everywhere

All vermin should surely be shot.
So start with the one in your mirror!

Members like wolfie, andy and didge do regular spells in the basement, whilst YOU never do, you're always sitting pretty, never reprimanded,  no matter how much hateful abuse and insults your spew out thru your rotten sulphurous teeth.

Go figure! 

Jules wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

Snowflake mellenials

Nothing more

The vermin exist everywhere

All vermin should surely be shot.
So start with the one in your mirror!

Members like wolfie, andy and didge do regular spells in the basement, whilst YOU never do, you're always sitting pretty, never reprimanded,  no matter how much hateful abuse and insults your spew out thru your rotten sulphurous teeth.

Go figure! 

Are you encouraging me to commit suicide..


I shall have to report you

sassy wrote:'The army is carrying out the government's racist policy that violates basic human rights,' 63 teens write to Netanyahu and Israeli military chief Gadi Eisenkot

A group of 63 teens have publicly declared they will refuse to be drafted into the Israel army, Yedioth Ahronoth reported on Thursday morning.

“We have decided not to take part in the occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people,” they wrote in a letter sent to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Chief of Staff Gadi Eisenkot and the defense and education ministers. “The ‘temporary’ situation has dragged on for 50 years, and we will not go on lending a hand.”

The high-schoolers criticized the government and the military in the letter. “The army is carrying out the government’s racist policy, which violates basic human rights and executes one law for Israelis and another law for Palestinians on the same territory,” they wrote.

The students also protested “intentional institutional incitement against Palestinians on both sides of the Green Line,” referring to the 1949 armistice line separating Israel from the West Bank, “and we here – draft-age boys and girls from different areas of the country and from different socioeconomic backgrounds – refuse to believe the system of incitement and to participate in the government’s arm of oppression and occupation.”

The letter called on others to reconsider being drafted, adding that intended to go around the country to recruit for their initiative.

“We refuse to be drafted and to serve in the army out of an obligation to values of peace, justice and equality, with the knowledge that there is another reality that we could create together,” they wrote. “We call on girls our age to ask themselves, will army service work toward this reality?”

The signatories include Matan Helman, 20, of Kibbutz Haogen, who is serving jail time because of his refusal to be drafted into the army.

In early December, the education ministry and the IDF announced that they were working on a plan to increase the number of draftees enlisting for combat service. Currently, enlistment rates are sinking and dropout rates stand at over 7,000 male and female soldiers annually.

read more: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.831626


Good on ya kids, talk to your friends and tell them the truth about what is going on.  Don't let them become war criminals

There have always been exemptions for joining the IDF. The Druze, some Jews and all Arabs are exempt. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of mandatory service. It's just another form of force that governments use against it's citizens.

Those Israelis who are drafted have until their 30th birthday, still, don't they ???  (I know it used to be that way..).

So either they do their 12 months minimum, or they do jail time (unless they meet one or more of those exemption rules..).

Which means those teenagers would still have plenty of time to be eventually drafted, anyways -- maybe once Netanyahu's gone; maybe when they've found some non-combative roles for them;
maybe they could spend 4 or 5 years in tertiary study while waiting; maybe join the Reserves before being conscripted (and then steer yourself into a non- combat role, e.g. stores, admin', medic..).

"There's more than one way to skin a cat";  and to avoid earning a criminal record.

Sassy wrote:A group of 63 teens have publicly declared they will refuse to be drafted into the Israel army, Yedioth Ahronoth reported on Thursday morning.

Sounds like a form of the general strike. Very effective weapon...and perfectly legal.

It is Not legal Quill, if you are "called up" or "drafted". You break Military Law, witch is a whole lot different from Civil Law. Please check your sources, it may be different in the USA from the UK though.

nicko wrote:It is Not legal Quill,    if you are "called up" or "drafted".   You break Military Law, witch is a whole lot different from Civil Law.   Please check your sources,  it may be different in the USA from the UK though.

Quill hasn't got a clue, he thinks conscription is no different to employment.

nicko wrote:It is Not legal Quill,    if you are "called up" or "drafted".   You break Military Law, witch is a whole lot different from Civil Law.   Please check your sources,  it may be different in the USA from the UK though.

Oh, in this country we don't have the draft. If you don't want to go, you sleep in that morning.

War has never been very popular with the people in this country.

Well Quill, is it legal to refuse the "call up", or not?
You'v dodged the Question, as you do many times !

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:It is Not legal Quill,    if you are "called up" or "drafted".   You break Military Law, witch is a whole lot different from Civil Law.   Please check your sources,  it may be different in the USA from the UK though.

Oh, in this country we don't have the draft.  If you don't want to go, you sleep in that morning.

War has never been very popular with the people in this country.

All males must still register for the draft. It could be reinstated with a stroke of a pen.

nicko wrote:Well Quill, is it legal to refuse the "call up", or not?
You'v dodged the Question,    as you do many times !

Well nick, I'm so sorry. Have I said anything untruthful?

The most wonderful way to avoid a war is to say, I'm sleeping in.

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:Well Quill, is it legal to refuse the "call up", or not?
You'v dodged the Question,    as you do many times !

Well nick, I'm so sorry.  Have I said anything untruthful?

The most wonderful way to avoid a war is to say, I'm sleeping in.  

Well its fair easier to avoid a war. When people build up an illusion. In order to not feel immoral. Based on some rather warped pacifist policies.

Sadly and generally. You cannot avoid these wars.  
Once your nation has had declared war stated against them..

As these wars will always come to you and its how you then look to cope with those present problems for the time.

I am sure there is a many an American soldier. Which is littered through history, of their personnal experinces.

They more than anyone else, would avoid war at all costs. But once war is within the end zone. The war has come to you and everyone else. In the world. Thus that conflit can no longer be ignored. 
Hence, when war is in progress. You should find the courage and rise up to the challenges ahead, via this new war.

This is problem with the left in thinking generally.

They do not know how to problem solve. They attempt poorly and always fail. To shift this problem, onto anyone esle.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Well nick, I'm so sorry.  Have I said anything untruthful?

The most wonderful way to avoid a war is to say, I'm sleeping in.  

Well its fair easier to avoid a war. When people build up an illusion. In order to not feel immoral. Based on some rather warped pacifist policies.

Sadly and generally. You cannot avoid these wars.  
Once your nation has had declared war stated against them..

As these wars will always come to you and its how you then look to cope with those present problems for the time.

I am sure there is a many an American soldier. Which is littered through history, of their personnal experinces.

They more than anyone else, would avoid war at all costs. But once war is within the end zone. The war has come to you and everyone else. In the world. Thus that conflit can no longer be ignored. 
Hence, when war is in progress. You should find the courage and rise up to the challenges ahead, via this new war.

This is problem with the left in thinking generally.

They do not know how to problem solve. They attempt poorly and always fail. To shift this problem, onto anyone esle.

Talk, talk, talk... The fact is, it's not our problem. The Bush administration tried to gin up phony excuses, but they were found out. Those guys are half-a-world away, and their pickup trucks can't reach our shores.

Over here, it's newsprint...nothing more. Let it go.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:


Well its fair easier to avoid a war. When people build up an illusion. In order to not feel immoral. Based on some rather warped pacifist policies.

Sadly and generally. You cannot avoid these wars.  
Once your nation has had declared war stated against them..

As these wars will always come to you and its how you then look to cope with those present problems for the time.

I am sure there is a many an American soldier. Which is littered through history, of their personnal experinces.

They more than anyone else, would avoid war at all costs. But once war is within the end zone. The war has come to you and everyone else. In the world. Thus that conflit can no longer be ignored. 
Hence, when war is in progress. You should find the courage and rise up to the challenges ahead, via this new war.

This is problem with the left in thinking generally.

They do not know how to problem solve. They attempt poorly and always fail. To shift this problem, onto anyone esle.

Talk, talk, talk...  The fact is, it's  not our problem.  The Bush administration tried to gin up phony excuses, but they were found out.  Those guys are half-a-world away, and their pickup trucks can't reach our shores.

Over here, it's newsprint...nothing more.  Let it go.

It was your porblem though, when you had courage. During the Vietnam war. You made it essential, it was your problem. Showing, how you still fail to see.

So maybe its time, you opened your eyes much wider. In order to understand what is going on in the world today.

So, you may want to let it go, but I will ensure it continues to be a main topic of discussion.

Didge wrote:It was your porblem though, when you had courage. During the Vietnam war. You made it essential, it was your problem. Showing, how you still fail to see.

What what did we get? Dead babies...

Didge wrote:So maybe its time, you opened your eyes much wider. In order to understand what is going on in the world today.

So, you may want to let it go, but I will ensure it continues to be a main topic of discussion.

It's not our problem.

But it was your porblem back then and you openly advocated to make that conflict a part of your problem.

There is always millions of babies dying each year. Even though you hold some warped view. That elevates babies lost through war. Onto some higher pedestal. In order to achieve inequality. Its mind blowing, how in fact, you are very hypocritical on this.

So when are all babies going to be equally important to you?

Is it all babies, or, in your case. Only those, that you have elevated to a new form of elitism. In order, that you can help yourself sleep at night easier.

Didge wrote:But it was your porblem back then and you openly advocated to make that conflict a part of your problem.

There is always millions of babies dying each year. Even though you hold some warped view. That elevates babies lost through war. Onto some higher pedestal. In order to achieve inequality. Its mind blowing, how in fact, you are very hypocritical on this.

So when are all babies going to be equally important to you?

Is it all babies, or, in your case. Only those, that you have elevated to a new form of elitism. In order, that you can help yourself sleep at night easier.

I'm concerned about America soldiers killing babies. That has been their habit in Vietnam and Iraq.

There is a lot of evil going on in the world, but as long as we are not the cause of it, I feel we have discharged our responsibility.

That's what I mean when I say, It's not our problem.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:But it was your porblem back then and you openly advocated to make that conflict a part of your problem.

There is always millions of babies dying each year. Even though you hold some warped view. That elevates babies lost through war. Onto some higher pedestal. In order to achieve inequality. Its mind blowing, how in fact, you are very hypocritical on this.

So when are all babies going to be equally important to you?

Is it all babies, or, in your case. Only those, that you have elevated to a new form of elitism. In order, that you can help yourself sleep at night easier.

I'm concerned about America  soldiers killing babies.  That has been their habit in Vietnam and Iraq.

There is a lot of evil going on in the world, but as long as we are not the cause of it, I feel we have discharged our responsibility.

That's what I mean when I say, It's not our problem.

Habit?

There was no habbit of American soldiers killing babies. Its something, you have imagined yourself..

A situation to be come a habit. Requires US soldiers in the main, in combat. To  be castigated for prea divide.

So not only have you tarred US troops, today and in the past. Of a collectively crime. Where worse, you seem. Unscorned with all other baby fatalties.

As a matter of habit. They they did not bucther babies

Didge wrote:Habit?

There was no habbit of American soldiers killing babies. Its something, you have imagined yourself..

A situation to be come a habit. Requires US soldiers in the main, in combat. To be castigated for prea divide.

Um...My momma always said, habit is as habit does:

Still no pattern of habit.

And you are backtracking.

Show me this habit for US soldiers to constantly kill babies?

Didge wrote:Still no pattern of habit.

And you are backtracking.

Show me this habit for US soldiers to constantly kill babies?

Well, the real question is, why go into the maelstrom if there is no reason?  If even one example exists, why do it?:

There is reasons, to how many people died.

Still waiting to understand how you class babies. Those most pressing and in desperate need of a home and fraily.

Didge wrote:Still waiting to understand how you class babies. Those most pressing and in desperate need of a home and fraily.

As to how I class dead babies?

Well then I guess, there is something very wrong with your eyesight Quill.

The medical term, is Leftist Blindness.

Its so obviously exposed your blindness here. As you have continually posted a picture of dead children and not babies.

Didge wrote:Well then I guess, there is something very wrong with your eyesight Quill.

The medical term, is Leftist Blindness.

Its so obviously exposed your blindness here. As you have continually posted a picture of dead children and not babies.

A picture is worth a thousand words, is it not? How is what is depicted in the My Lai photo improving the lives of children...anywhere?

We continually get into these things with no strategic purpose, and no endgame, and then ignobly crawl away. It accomplishes nothing.

I'v got a few Photo's of what the VC did to captured American Soldiers, Like to see them?

nicko wrote:I'v got a few Photo's of what the VC did to captured American Soldiers,     Like to see them?

Are you setting up an argument for moral equivalency? That the other side did it, is further reason for not getting involved...at least, without a sensible endgame. It's dirty business. It's not our business.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:It was your porblem though, when you had courage. During the Vietnam war. You made it essential, it was your problem. Showing, how you still fail to see.

What what did we get?  Dead babies...

Didge wrote:So maybe its time, you opened your eyes much wider. In order to understand what is going on in the world today.

So, you may want to let it go, but I will ensure it continues to be a main topic of discussion.

It's not our problem.

Every military on the planet kills innocent life. That's why war should be avoided. Where did that picture come from, and who killed those people?

The photo is of ordinary people murdered by the VC because they would not hide weapons in their houses !
They usually took the Headman and his Wife and Children and killed them as a lesson of what happens if you did not help the VC !

nicko wrote:The photo is of ordinary people murdered by the VC  because they would not hide weapons in their houses !
They usually took the Headman and his Wife and Children and killed them as a lesson of what happens if you did not help the VC !

That could be true. I have no idea. I do know that many of the photos from Vietnam were the result of the Vietnamese killing each other. It's like there is some misguided belief that peace broke out as soon as US forces left, or that all deaths during the US engagement were the result of US actions.

This picture is often used to demonstrate American indiscretion during the war. The S. Vietnamese are the ones that dropped napalm on this poor girl.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:Well then I guess, there is something very wrong with your eyesight Quill.

The medical term, is Leftist Blindness.

Its so obviously exposed your blindness here. As you have continually posted a picture of dead children and not babies.

A picture is worth a thousand words, is it not?  How is what is depicted in the My Lai photo improving the lives of children...anywhere?

We continually get into these things with no strategic purpose, and no endgame, and then ignobly crawl away.  It accomplishes nothing.

Well its because you look at fatalities only, as an end point with war. What you fail to ever factor is how many people lives were saved.

Not that it matters, as you are politicizing the death of children through war. Blatnatly ignoring the millions of babies that die from a multitude of medical problems. All of which, we can and have been able to do something about for years. Based on your reasoning, we are going to continue to do so.

Again, from your point, to post a picture of children killed, when you continually politicize the death of "babies" through war. Proves how far you have become confused by your ow compared to say, a toddler. Its been so ingrained this poor argument you have. So badly, that you continually are short sighted. To the millions of deaths of children each year.

When I saw the title of this thread I just knew it was sassy who had made it .

Didge wrote:Not that it matters, as you are politicizing the death of children through war. Blatnatly ignoring the millions of babies that die from a multitude of medical problems. All of which, we can and have been able to do something about for years. Based on your reasoning, we are going to continue to do so.

That's a strange moral equivalency argument! Oh well, the kid's gonna die of cancer anyway.

We don't kill babies while curing cancer.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:Not that it matters, as you are politicizing the death of children through war. Blatnatly ignoring the millions of babies that die from a multitude of medical problems. All of which, we can and have been able to do something about for years. Based on your reasoning, we are going to continue to do so.

That's a strange moral equivalency argument!  Oh well, the kid's gonna die of cancer anyway.

We don't kill babies while curing cancer.

No we try to save them, just by going to war, often saves millions from dying.

Thus war is a cure, to babies being killed, who will be kiiled, if we do not act.

Where a country is controlled by oppressive authoritarianism, denied basic needs. Like water in ordert to survive. So your view, your kid is going to die, is the step you take everytime. When you oppose war, set to liberate people.

So there is certainly a cure for Oppression, which sentences to death countless children.

Now, are you going to actually present something intelligent here. Or shall I continue to tie you up in knots?

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:When I saw the title of this thread I just knew it was sassy who had made it .

So what?  What's your point?

I like sassy. I dislike you!

Jules wrote:

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:When I saw the title of this thread I just knew it was sassy who had made it .

So what?  What's your point?

I like sassy. I dislike you!

Why would you even need to dislike anyone, based off their feelings towards another poster?

Its that not taking sides, where no actual sides exist?

Didge wrote:

Jules wrote:

So what?  What's your point?

I like sassy. I dislike you!

Why would you even need to dislike anyone, based off their feelings towards another poster?

Its that not taking sides, where no actual sides exist?

She and sassy have plenty of history. 


What was it you were saying about me defending Quill?
You said he could speak up for himself and did not need defending. 
Yet here you are defending someone who is capable of speaking up for herself.


As for you calling me a halfwit in the thread, perhaps we should try avoid the slippery slope of dishing out personal abuse eh?

Jules wrote:

Didge wrote:

Why would you even need to dislike anyone, based off their feelings towards another poster?

Its that not taking sides, where no actual sides exist?

She and sassy have plenty of history. 


What was it you were saying about me defending Quill?
You said he could speak up for himself and did not need defending. 
Yet here you are defending someone who is capable of speaking up for herself.


As for you calling me a halfwit in the thread, perhaps we should try avoid the slippery slope of dishing out personal abuse eh?

1) Which is between each of them, or are you the new harbinger of discord?

So what does it matter if they have history?

2) Can you show me who exactly I am defending here specificallY?

Never did

3) There is no denying you are a halfwit. As who allow their feelings towards one poster. Allow them to also make you dislike this poster. I call that ignorance, at its best. As you are now realiant on decisions made by others and not yourself

4) So in conclusion, you are a halfwit and hence easily led and hateful

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That's a strange moral equivalency argument!  Oh well, the kid's gonna die of cancer anyway.

We don't kill babies while curing cancer.

No we try to save them, just by going to war, often saves millions from dying.

Thus war is a cure, to babies being killed, who will be kiiled, if we do not act.

Or, if you do act.

Didge wrote:Where a country is controlled by oppressive authoritarianism, denied basic needs. Like water in ordert to survive. So your view, your kid is going to die, is the step you take everytime. When you oppose war, set to liberate people.

So there is certainly a cure for Oppression, which sentences to death countless children.

So you kill babies.  Makes a lot of sense.

Didge wrote:Now, are you going to actually present something intelligent here. Or shall I continue to tie you up in knots?

I've done my duty.