100 claimants with mental health problems have their benefits stopped every day

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:26 am

Figures obtained by the Methodist Church from the Department of Work and Pensions have revealed that claimants thought to be unfit for work due to mental health problems are disproportionately and increasingly likely to have their benefits stopped under sanctions.

The DWP’s own figures show that in March 2014, the last month for which statistics are available, approximately 4,500 people with mental health problems who receive the sickness and disability benefit Employment and Support Allowance, (ESA), because of mental health problems were sanctioned.

The proportion of claimants with mental health problems rose from Feb 2010 to Feb 2014, but the proportion of sanctions for this group received rose even more sharply.

Proportion of claimants with mental health problems and the sanctions they receive:

100 claimants with mental health problems have their benefits stopped every day Sanctions-graph-660x320

100 claimants with mental health problems have their benefits stopped every day Sanctions-graph-660x320

Source: FOI figures from DWP obtained by Methodist Church

Paul Morrison, Public Issues Policy Advisor for the Methodist Church, said:

“We believe that the number of people with mental health problems who have their benefit stopped due to being sanctioned is in fact a great deal higher than 100 a day. According to the DWP data, the most common reason for being sanctioned is that a person has been late or not turned up for a Work Programme appointment.”

What the figures don’t show is the human cost of a system that seems intent on punishing those that are looking for work while suffering with mental health problems. For some, the stress of sanctions, of not having any money, proves too much and pushes them over the edge.

A 48-year -old single mother from Glasgow was sanctioned for not attending a meeting. She wasn’t directed anywhere for help and the stress became too much for her. She was found hanged in her home two days before Christmas 2013 (Source: Poverty Truth Commission).

A 53-year-old Glasgow man said the stress made him want to turn to drink and drugs. He said:

“I was on ESA and was called to attend a medical with ATOS. I was sent a letter the day before I was to be paid saying I had been sanctioned for six weeks. When I phoned to query this I was informed that I had been phoned to explain I was being taken off ESA and put onto JSA (Job Seekers Allowance) and invited to a meeting. I had not answered this phone call as I did not know it was from the DWP and am afraid to answer numbers I don’t know on my phone as they are very often from debt collectors. I was given no direction over where to go for help. I felt so angry, insecure, negative, depressed and beaten. I felt like finding solace in drugs and drink.” (Source: Poverty Truth Commission)

Where sanctions increase stress and anxiety they may aggravate a mental illness. Tragically, this may then make it even harder for the claimant to obtain or return to work and may lengthen the period they are incapacitated.

If people with mental health problems are increasingly being sanctioned more often than other claimants this suggests the sanctioning policy is discriminatory against them. This may be direct or indirect discrimination. Direct discrimination (treating someone less favourably because they have a mental illness) does happen. But indirect discrimination, when for example someone has difficulties attending meetings reliably because of their illness, may be more common.

Very common mental illnesses, like anxiety and depression, can often result in indirect discrimination. If someone with one of these illnesses is sanctioned for not attending a meeting , there will often have been good cause related to the symptoms of the illness. Those administering the benefits system would benefit from remembering that the welfare state was designed to help those who fall on hard times at the time they most need help – just like the claimants who have mental health problems.

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2015/01/100-claimants-with-mental-health-problems-have-their-benefits-stopped-every-day

Picking on the weakest.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:46 am

So basically not mental health but stress, with a claim it may bring out a mental health problem.
Sorry but a possibility is not a reason to continue someone on benefits. I may have an asthma ttack tomorrow, should I have benefits just in case I do?
Benefits is not paid out on possible scenarios, but on an illness.
I see nothing wrong here, well done the government.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:18 pm

I think the point is Didge...that the use of sanctions is unfair....

like being fined £10000 for speeding at 32mph

Its the draconian and seemingly random use of sanctions that get folks goat...

lack of consistency that bespeaks of ONE thing ONLY......TARGETS with no interest in common fairness

BUT people are being sanctioned for stupid things..like being 5 mins late...

CRAZY....

a fairer system would be one of scaled warnings....and THEN sanctions...

Instead whether someone is sanctioned or not is down to whethere the interviewer has got his/her leg over that morning....or has a few more to get to meet his/her target.....

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:27 pm

besides which your comparison with "your" asthma is disingenious bull shite that the cons are well known for,,,,

what you NEED to compare is how disabling a person's condition is

some one could "suffer" stress....and be a bit ratty now and then

someone else could turn suicidal

or into a helpless gibberering heap

or a raving psycho

just like

some one with asthma could...

just get a bit of a cough now and then

or be quite badly but randoml;y affected

or be permanently crippled by it...incapable of hardly moving (which one supposes is quite rare)

but you see my point

It's a question of degree

and the shit head behind the counter at the jobcenter is NOT qualified to make ANY judgement...yet is allwed...nay indeed encouraged so to do...

about time those who get it wrong were subject to prosecution dont you think...

god almight 90% of the ATOS monkeys are not properly qualified, but are allowed to operate under the "health care professional" comfort blanket

hint .......health care professional = meaningless sound bite

basically what it means is that a chiropodist could end up adjudicating a case where cancer is involved.... Rolling Eyes

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:32 pm

Putting it on this thread as they rather go together:

Quality Checking Government Results

Over recent weeks people with learning disabilities, their families, friends and their allies were surveyed by LDA England.

About 2,000 people completed the survey; 50% disabled people and 27% families.

The results reveal the deep level of shock and outrage felt by many.

The survey asked people to score the Government in 12 areas:

rights
advocacy
family life
community
income
education
work
home
support
health
safety
justice

Below is a picture of the front cover of the Newspaper announcing the results. Click on the picture to read and download a pdf of the newspaper.

100 claimants with mental health problems have their benefits stopped every day LDa-Launch-Newspaper

100 claimants with mental health problems have their benefits stopped every day LDa-Launch-Newspaper

http://learningdisabilityalliance.org/news/quality-checking-government-results/

by Irn Bru Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:33 pm

risingsun wrote:Figures obtained by the Methodist Church from the Department of Work and Pensions have revealed that claimants thought to be unfit for work due to mental health problems are disproportionately and increasingly likely to have their benefits stopped under sanctions.

The DWP’s own figures show that in March 2014, the last month for which statistics are available, approximately 4,500 people with mental health problems who receive the sickness and disability benefit Employment and Support Allowance, (ESA), because of mental health problems were sanctioned.

The proportion of claimants with mental health problems rose from Feb 2010 to Feb 2014, but the proportion of sanctions for this group received rose even more sharply.

Proportion of claimants with mental health problems and the sanctions they receive:

Source: FOI figures from DWP obtained by Methodist Church

Paul Morrison, Public Issues Policy Advisor for the Methodist Church, said:

“We believe that the number of people with mental health problems who have their benefit stopped due to being sanctioned is in fact a great deal higher than 100 a day. According to the DWP data, the most common reason for being sanctioned is that a person has been late or not turned up for a Work Programme appointment.”

What the figures don’t show is the human cost of a system that seems intent on punishing those that are looking for work while suffering with mental health problems. For some, the stress of sanctions, of not having any money, proves too much and pushes them over the edge.

A 48-year -old single mother from Glasgow was sanctioned for not attending a meeting. She wasn’t directed anywhere for help and the stress became too much for her. She was found hanged in her home two days before Christmas 2013 (Source: Poverty Truth Commission).

A 53-year-old Glasgow man said the stress made him want to turn to drink and drugs. He said:

“I was on ESA and was called to attend a medical with ATOS. I was sent a letter the day before I was to be paid saying I had been sanctioned for six weeks. When I phoned to query this I was informed that I had been phoned to explain I was being taken off ESA and put onto JSA (Job Seekers Allowance) and invited to a meeting. I had not answered this phone call as I did not know it was from the DWP and am afraid to answer numbers I don’t know on my phone as they are very often from debt collectors. I was given no direction over where to go for help. I felt so angry, insecure, negative, depressed and beaten. I felt like finding solace in drugs and drink.” (Source: Poverty Truth Commission)

Where sanctions increase stress and anxiety they may aggravate a mental illness. Tragically, this may then make it even harder for the claimant to obtain or return to work and may lengthen the period they are incapacitated.

If people with mental health problems are increasingly being sanctioned more often than other claimants this suggests the sanctioning policy is discriminatory against them. This may be direct or indirect discrimination. Direct discrimination (treating someone less favourably because they have a mental illness) does happen. But indirect discrimination, when for example someone has difficulties attending meetings reliably because of their illness, may be more common.

Very common mental illnesses, like anxiety and depression, can often result in indirect discrimination. If someone with one of these illnesses is sanctioned for not attending a meeting , there will often have been good cause related to the symptoms of the illness. Those administering the benefits system would benefit from remembering that the welfare state was designed to help those who fall on hard times at the time they most need help – just like the claimants who have mental health problems.

http://touchstoneblog.org.uk/2015/01/100-claimants-with-mental-health-problems-have-their-benefits-stopped-every-day

Picking on the weakest.

That is an absolute disgrace. And all the while the tax evaders and the tax avoiders are skipping off scot free as Osborne isn't interested - not his responsibilty he says.

by Irn Bru Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:36 pm

Checked the OECD report and came across this little gem

100 claimants with mental health problems have their benefits stopped every day Oecd10

Right click to read the whole thing. What a bloody joke that is. They've been conned.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:36 pm

darknessss wrote:besides which your comparison with "your" asthma is disingenious bull shite that the cons are well known for,,,,
what you NEED to compare is how disabling a person's condition is
some one could "suffer" stress....and be a bit ratty now and then
someone else could turn suicidal
or into a helpless gibberering heap
or a raving psycho
just like
some one with asthma could...
just get a bit of a cough now and then
or be quite badly but randoml;y affected
or be permanently crippled by it...incapable of hardly moving (which one supposes is quite rare)
but you see my point
It's a question of degree
and the shit head behind the counter at the jobcenter is NOT qualified to make ANY judgement...yet is allwed...nay indeed encouraged so to do...
about time those who get it wrong were subject to prosecution dont you think...
god almight 90% of the ATOS monkeys are not properly qualified, but are allowed to operate under the "health care professional" comfort blanket
hint .......health care professional = meaningless sound bite

basically what it means is that a chiropodist could end up adjudicating a case where cancer is involved....

Absurd

In this case it is down to possibilities, where you cannot predict in many cases if someone is going to then commit suicide. To base a view on stress is subjective on each individual and you cannot hold a view to pay people benefits alone on stress, it has to form into a servere case that will disabled them from carrying out their normal taks to the point of working. In many cases people continue to work with stress and anxiety, What you are basically saying is that we should pay anyone with symptoms of stress and anziety incase it may lead to further complications if we do not. That just opens the door to the previous abuse that went unchecked for years.
Nobody is claiming the systme is perfect and like anything even if medical mistakes happen.
A person with severe Asthma can die of breathing difficulties, where as in many cases a person with severe stress whilst in work can get the help they need as many companies will help people who are suffering or even other known conditions
Remember this is about people being able to work and with stress and anxiety the levels of risk where again in many cases you just do not continue to pay all just in case one may sadly take their own life. In many cases that is just not predictable.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:42 pm

FGS, will you learn to read something before you comment. They are NOT getting ESA because of stress.

approximately 4,500 people with mental health problems who receive the sickness and disability benefit Employment and Support Allowance, (ESA), because of mental health problems were sanctioned.

They already have mental health problems, the stress of being sanctioned for things they can't help (like being a few minutes late when they are suffering from mental health problems that mean they don't know how to organise themselves) makes their mental health problems worse.

The are NOT receiving ESA for stress.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:44 pm

risingsun wrote:FGS, will you learn to read something before you comment. They are NOT getting ESA because of stress.

approximately 4,500 people with mental health problems who receive the sickness and disability benefit Employment and Support Allowance, (ESA), because of mental health problems were sanctioned.

They already have mental health problems, the stress of being sanctioned for things they can't help (like being a few minutes late when they are suffering from mental health problems that mean they don't know how to organise themselves) makes their mental health problems worse.

The are NOT receiving ESA for stress.

Yes andd anxiety is a mental health problem.
Seriously actually learn what the subject is about before commenting because after that reply it is clear you do no!

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:10 pm

BUT OF COURSE IT MATTERS not THAT A MINOR AND INSIGNIFICANT COST TO THE NATION IS BEING "Saved" (despite the blatant and criminal tax evasion and avoidance practiced by those who, were they to pay what they should would pay twice over for the benefit bill (minus pensions)

Lets just hit the weakest ...rather than them buggers with billions...who might bite back

wrong at every level

wrong in principle wrong in practice and criminal in moral terms....

by Irn Bru Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:15 pm

Some of the examples are about people who already haver mental problems having them aggravated further by this government heartless and draconian policies towards the weakest and the most vulnerable in our society.

Well done the government!! No chance, they should be out chasing those that really are cheating this country out of the money owed.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:16 pm

darknessss wrote:BUT OF COURSE IT MATTERS not THAT A MINOR AND INSIGNIFICANT COST TO THE NATION IS BEING "Saved" (despite the blatant and criminal tax evasion and avoidance practiced by those who, were they to pay what they should would pay twice over for the benefit bill (minus pensions)

Lets just hit the weakest ...rather than them buggers with billions...who might bite back

wrong at every level

wrong in principle wrong in practice and criminal in moral terms....

Again absurd, the view is to help people back into work, not pity them as you seem to wish to do so again ignoring the fundemental fact many poeople with such conditions can work. In fact in many aspects not working can make their conditions even worse for them.
So it is not wrong in every level, it goes back to the point of bringing meaning in life with work, where a life devoid of purpose is far more dangerous to their minds. The principle is to help make life as normal as possible for people not keep them on benefits which is not helping them in any fashion what so ever.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:16 pm

Brasidas wrote:
risingsun wrote:FGS, will you learn to read something before you comment. They are NOT getting ESA because of stress.

approximately 4,500 people with mental health problems who receive the sickness and disability benefit Employment and Support Allowance, (ESA), because of mental health problems were sanctioned.

They already have mental health problems, the stress of being sanctioned for things they can't help (like being a few minutes late when they are suffering from mental health problems that mean they don't know how to organise themselves) makes their mental health problems worse.

The are NOT receiving ESA for stress.

Yes andd anxiety is a mental health problem.
Seriously actually learn what the subject is about before commenting because after that reply it is clear you do no!

FGS Dodge shut the fuck up. I put the thread up, at no point does anyone say that the mental health problems are just anxiety. The are many things, including BiPolar, Schizophenia etc etc.

Turning you off again. Seriously there is something wrong with you.

by Irn Bru Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:16 pm

darknessss wrote:BUT OF COURSE IT MATTERS not THAT A MINOR AND INSIGNIFICANT COST TO THE NATION IS BEING "Saved" (despite the blatant and criminal tax evasion and avoidance practiced by those who, were they to pay what they should would pay twice over for the benefit bill (minus pensions)

Lets just hit the weakest ...rather than them buggers with billions...who might bite back

wrong at every level

wrong in principle wrong in practice and criminal in moral terms....

Exactly Victor. It's so obvious, isn't it.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:17 pm

risingsun wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Yes andd anxiety is a mental health problem.
Seriously actually learn what the subject is about before commenting because after that reply it is clear you do no!

FGS Dodge shut the fuck up. I put the thread up, at no point does anyone say that the mental health problems are anxiety. The are many things, including BiPolar, Schizophenia etc etc.

Turning you off again. Seriously there is something wrong with you.

You can do as you please, my points still stand and which are open to debate and not infantile abuse.
Enjoy

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:59 pm

Brasidas wrote:
darknessss wrote:BUT OF COURSE IT MATTERS not THAT A MINOR AND INSIGNIFICANT COST TO THE NATION IS BEING "Saved" (despite the blatant and criminal tax evasion and avoidance practiced by those who, were they to pay what they should would pay twice over for the benefit bill (minus pensions)

Lets just hit the weakest ...rather than them buggers with billions...who might bite back

wrong at every level

wrong in principle wrong in practice and criminal in moral terms....

Again absurd, the view is to help people back into work, not pity them as you seem to wish to do so again ignoring the fundemental fact many poeople with such conditions can work. In fact in many aspects not working can make their conditions even worse for them.
So it is not wrong in every level, it goes back to the point of bringing meaning in life with work, where a life devoid of purpose is far more dangerous to their minds. The principle is to help make life as normal as possible for people not keep them on benefits which is not helping them in any fashion what so ever.

you dont help ANYONE by driving them into the pits of despair,
you dont help anyone by depriving diabetics of regualr food

you dont help anyone by FORCE

why not just send the goon squad round and beat the crap out of them for not working?? its the same thing...at least that would be "honest intent"

you HELP people by providing the support they need, NOT cutting off their finances....
you have specialists (though if they sent you I'D commit suicide) sent to help them
councillors
mental heath specialists
you have "drop in centers" with crisis facilities

you have trained folks available "just for someone to talk to"

you DO realise that these animals that work in job centers are telling /threatening people into LYING on job applications when it comes to declaring medical conditions...

(and dont argue ...i have experience of this....and seriously embarassed several staff at a job center.....(moral ...dont fuck with old guys..... Twisted Evil

)

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:06 pm

darknessss wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Again absurd, the view is to help people back into work, not pity them as you seem to wish to do so again ignoring the fundemental fact many poeople with such conditions can work. In fact in many aspects not working can make their conditions even worse for them.
So it is not wrong in every level, it goes back to the point of bringing meaning in life with work, where a life devoid of purpose is far more dangerous to their minds. The principle is to help make life as normal as possible for people not keep them on benefits which is not helping them in any fashion what so ever.

you dont help ANYONE by driving them into the pits of despair,
you dont help anyone by depriving diabetics of regualr food

you dont help anyone by FORCE

why not just send the goon squad round and beat the crap out of them for not working?? its the same thing...at least that would be "honest intent"

you HELP people by providing the support they need, NOT cutting off their finances....
you have specialists (though if they sent you I'D commit suicide) sent to help them
councillors
mental heath specialists
you have "drop in centers" with crisis facilities

you have trained folks available "just for someone to talk to"

you DO realise that these animals that work in job centers are telling /threatening people into LYING on job applications when it comes to declaring medical conditions...

(and dont argue ...i have experience of this....and seriously embarassed several staff at a job center.....(moral ...dont fuck with old guys..... )

So working having meaning in life is driving them into the pits of dispair.
Absurd again, what you are doing is actually playing up to their illness giving them the view they cannot work when many of them can.
You in fact are making the problem a huindred times a[worse and fail to see that you are.
Again some may not be able to work and again mistakes happen, but the view is to get people back into work
I will counter all I like that is just as silly to claim also and to say you have experincew would be limited beyond b elief and does not make your view right in any shape or form, in fact I find it dangerous to say the least to the people that do need help.
The fact is we see choice examples here and not countless reason valid reasons why money has been stopped. It is easy to make a view and a claim based off again choice examples
These people in job centres follow their procedure and are not infalliable and any time you have a case where a mistake happens you think that is a view to stop something which is daft beyond belief. If that view was taken many medical break throughs would never even have gotten off trhe ground, where there is failures. Nothing is perfect but your view is to tread on eggshells with everyone.
This is a biased article used to make a view and claim something does not work and you blaim people in their jobs doing their jobs as wrong and you think that makes you some high almighty to slag them off and judge them?
behave, you are just good enough to understand youerself
All these people can get all the help they need through their doctors or through work.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:17 pm

Brasidas wrote:
darknessss wrote:

you dont help ANYONE by driving them into the pits of despair,
you dont help anyone by depriving diabetics of regualr food

you dont help anyone by FORCE

why not just send the goon squad round and beat the crap out of them for not working?? its the same thing...at least that would be "honest intent"

you HELP people by providing the support they need, NOT cutting off their finances....
you have specialists (though if they sent you I'D commit suicide) sent to help them
councillors
mental heath specialists
you have "drop in centers" with crisis facilities

you have trained folks available "just for someone to talk to"

you DO realise that these animals that work in job centers are telling /threatening people into LYING on job applications when it comes to declaring medical conditions...

(and dont argue ...i have experience of this....and seriously embarassed several staff at a job center.....(moral ...dont fuck with old guys..... )

So working having meaning in life is driving them into the pits of dispair.

typical R?W disingenuity...and propaganda playing dodge and deliberatly fudgeing the point...evasion....
what drives people into despair is being sanctioned...unfairly...for being a few mins late.

Absurd again, what you are doing is actually playing up to their illness giving them the view they cannot work when many of them can.
You in fact are making the problem a huindred times a to see that you are.

[color=#ff0000].you are right in your statement but bullshitting the conclusion.... yes many can work...but they need help

BUT they are NOT working ,,,so NO help from "work" IS THERE????
and the doctors cannot and do not have either the time OR expertise to "help"
and mental health services are being constantl;y cut and systematically destroyed....

when in reality we NEED MORE...and FAR MORE acessible ....

Again some may not be able to work and again mistakes happen, but the view is to get people back into work
but hey ho fuck the mistakes...they dont matter do they....after all THEY ARE DEAD...

I will counter all I like that is just as silly to claim also and to say you have experincew would be limited beyond b elief and does not make your view right in any shape or form, in fact I find it dangerous to say the least to the people that do need help.
The fact is we see choice examples here and not countless reason valid reasons why money has been stopped. It is easy to make a view and a claim based off again choice examples
These people in job centres follow their procedure and are not infalliable

sorry didge...unreasonable or not...I dont care....they SHOULD BE "infallible" or...rather ...the "system" should be. Whilst an individual MAY make mistakes, an organisation should not, at least when it concerns peoples well being...a SYSTEM , should have checks and balances built in in in a case like this should have a DEFAULT position of "least harm"
moreove a LOT is NOT mistake...it is MALICE and TARGETS

and any time you have a case where a mistake happens you think that is a view to stop something which is daft beyond belief. If that view was taken many medical break throughs would never even have gotten off trhe ground, where there is failures. Nothing is perfect but your view is to tread on eggshells with everyone.
This is a biased article used to make a view and claim something does not work and you blaim people in their jobs doing their jobs as wrong and you think that makes you some high almighty to slag them off and judge them?
behave, you are just good enough to understand youerself
All these people can get all the help they need through their doctors or through work.

RUBBISH...more R/W dreaming and propaganda...

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:31 pm

\""darknessss wrote:typical R?W disingenuity...and propaganda playing dodge and deliberatly fudgeing the point...evasion.... what drives people into despair is being sanctioned...unfairly...for being a few mins lateyou are right in your statement but bullshitting the conclusion.... yes many can work...but they need help BUT they are NOT working ,,,so NO help from "work" IS THERE???? and the doctors cannot and do not have either the time OR expertise to "help" and mental health services are being constantl;y cut and systematically destroyed.... when in reality we NEED MORE...and FAR MORE acessible .... Again some may not be able to work and again mistakes happen, but the view is to get people back into work"]but hey ho fuck the mistakes...they dont matter do they....after all THEY ARE DEAD..
sorry didge...unreasonable or not...I dont care....they SHOULD BE "infallible" or...rather ...the "system" should be. Whilst an individual MAY make mistakes, an organisation should not, at least when it concerns peoples well being...a SYSTEM , should have checks and balances built in in in a case like this should have a DEFAULT position of "least harm"
moreove a LOT is NOT mistake...it is MALICE and TARGETSand any time you have a case where a mistake happens you think that is a view to stop something which is daft beyond belief. If that view was taken many medical break throughs would never even have gotten off trhe ground, where there is failures. Nothing is perfect but your view is to tread on eggshells with everyone.
This is a biased article used to make a view and claim something does not work and you blaim people in their jobs doing their jobs as wrong and you think that makes you some high almighty to slag them off and judge them?
behave, you are just good enough to understand youerself
All these people can get all the help they need through their doctors or through work.

[]RUBBISH...more R/W dreaming and propaganda

What a load of garbage please I am going to have to get my tissue out in a minute, more from laughing my arse off at such rubbish.
The problem is people like you expect every system to be perfect, it never is, neither is the doctor you see, they make mistakes also and it is people like yourself that in end have poor doctors have to face the most ridiculour law suits for the rest of their lives over the perfect worold you think should exist, when it is nothing more than an illusions.
Doctors do have the time to help by offering support services as do the Job centre in fact, showing you have not the first scoobby doo what you are talking about here
Left wing dribble this, lets tread on egg shells for every claimant and just allow many people to do the opposite of what is needed and bring meaning to theri lives through work. The fact is you ahve no idea on the details here and go again off choice examples as if this is the case with every one where they have had their benefits stopped. In many cases people suffer from conditions and your view is based on a what if, not even on a risk level and sadly some have taken their lives, as if this could have been stopped when in fact many have reached that point of no return already. So to claim this one thing has sent them over the edge is easy to claim without the full history of this person and then along comes Victor and claims it was the payment stopped. Utter bollocks
That is absurd and poor that you would be so gullible to claim such nonsense.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:47 pm

and YET...you belive the rubbish that its costing you dear...when in fact IT ISNT....

face reality didge ...you DONT care....

look at that diabetic soldier that dies ...not from diabetes directly.....but from malnutrition (effectively)

and there are many other cases....

now you talk about well being and "justice"

ANY SYSTEM that is unjust ...even once...is in disrepute... simple....
especially when it can be made "safe" very easily and simply.....

but oh no......lets let genuine people suffer...just so we can save pennies...get the few parasites and make ourselves look good....

well it doesnt make the R/W look good....

It shows them for what they are

their failure to deal effectively AND promptly with the REAL cause of our financial state (the tax dodgers)
and yet ammer something that is insignificant shows them for what they are....

despicable....

(thats NOT to say I wont vote for them since a despicable GOVT that doesnt intend to F**k with MY interests is better than an incompetant bunch of champagne socialist with their heads up their arse and NO clue who are set to go AGAINST my interests)

and if that makes me a cynical shyster well ...so be it....

as you WELL know I dislike both L/W and R/W with equal fervour....

There IS a better way........

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:55 pm

darknessss wrote:and YET...you belive the rubbish that its costing you dear...when in fact IT ISNT....
face reality didge ...you DONT care....
look at that diabetic soldier that dies ...not from diabetes directly.....but from malnutrition (effectively)
and there are many other cases....
now you talk about well being and "justice"
ANY SYSTEM that is unjust ...even once...is in disrepute... simple....
especially when it can be made "safe" very easily and simply.....
but oh no......lets let genuine people suffer...just so we can save pennies...get the few parasites and make ourselves look good....
well it doesnt make the R/W look good....
It shows them for what they are
their failure to deal effectively AND promptly with the RWL cause of our financial state (the tax dodgers)
and yet ammer something that is insignificant shows them for what they are....despicable....
(thats NOT to say I wont vote for them since a despicable GOVT that doesnt intend to F**k with MY interests is better than an incompetant bunch of champagne socialist with their he,ads up their arse and NO clue who are set to go AGAINST my interests)
and if that makes me a cynical shyster well ...so be it....

as you WELL know I dislike both L/W and R/W with equal fervour....

There IS a better way........

Did not take long for the deabte to turn talking about me and what I care about which is for those suffering to get back into work and it is in the area of employers where the problem is showing your opinion counts for very little where you do not even recognise where the problems are. The fact is many do not want to even attempt to find work because they feel they will be discrminated by the employer, so just doing nothing by continuing their payments is not going to solve this problem is it?
Your methods is why countless people with mental health problems who do want to work fear trying. It should be round encouraging getting them back into work where there are many support services that do so.
So spare me the babble claiming I do not care, that is so detracting off the issue at hand.
Again I am not denying mistakes happen, and wish none happen, but your view and method is all wrong because you will see even more stay out of work when this is needed more than anything to bring meaning to their lives. It can increase their social circle and what is needed is for more employers to understand mental health problems to accomdate those that suffer. Being in employment is going to help them far more finnacially than being out of work, where money issues is a problem which encouraging them to workl can reliev part of these problems. Kepping them in an endless circle out of work is counter productive and in many cases makes the health far worse.
Sadly you see things again two dimensional and cannot see where trhe real problems are.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:04 pm

Brasidas wrote:
darknessss wrote:and YET...you belive the rubbish that its costing you dear...when in fact IT ISNT....
face reality didge ...you DONT care....
look at that diabetic soldier that dies ...not from diabetes directly.....but from malnutrition (effectively)
and there are many other cases....
now you talk about well being and "justice"
ANY SYSTEM that is unjust ...even once...is in disrepute... simple....
especially when it can be made "safe" very easily and simply.....
but oh no......lets let genuine people suffer...just so we can save pennies...get the few parasites and make ourselves look good....
well it doesnt make the R/W look good....
It shows them for what they are
their failure to deal effectively AND promptly with the RWL cause of our financial state (the tax dodgers)
and yet ammer something that is insignificant shows them for what they are....despicable....
(thats NOT to say I wont vote for them since a despicable GOVT that doesnt intend to F**k with MY interests is better than an incompetant bunch of champagne socialist with their he,ads up their arse and NO clue who are set to go AGAINST my interests)
and if that makes me a cynical shyster well ...so be it....

as you WELL know I dislike both L/W and R/W with equal fervour....

There IS a better way........

Did not take long for the deabte to turn talking about me and what I care about which is for those suffering to get back into work and it is in the area of employers where the problem is showing your opinion counts for very little where you do not even recognise where the problems are. The fact is many do not want to even attempt to find work because they feel they will be discrminated by the employer, so just doing nothing by continuing their payments is not going to solve this problem is it?
Your methods is why countless people with mental health problems who do want to work fear trying. It should be round encouraging getting them back into work where there are many support services that do so.
So spare me the babble claiming I do not care, that is so detracting off the issue at hand.
Again I am not denying mistakes happen, and wish none happen, but your view and method is all wrong because you will see even more stay out of work when this is needed more than anything to bring meaning to their lives. It can increase their social circle and what is needed is for more employers to understand mental health problems to accomdate those that suffer. Being in employment is going to help them far more finnacially than being out of work, where money issues is a problem which encouraging them to workl can reliev part of these problems. Kepping them in an endless circle out of work is counter productive and in many cases makes the health far worse.
Sadly you see things again two dimensional and cannot see where trhe real problems are.

I know where the problem is

so stiffen the laws as apply to employers....FORCE them to take on people who are "pre stressed" and then provide the help they need.....

do you recon thats going to work???

do you really think that an employer is going to take on someone with a history of stress related illness??? and thus become liable for their further care?

you cant put the cart before the horse....the job has to be their to take...thats 1 point
the employer has to be able to "cope" with someone who quite frankly represents a loose cannon (as far as he is concerned)
how much extra is the employers insurance going to cost?
who's going to pay for it?

(and thats just a few "minor points")

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:11 pm

darknessss wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Did not take long for the deabte to turn talking about me and what I care about which is for those suffering to get back into work and it is in the area of employers where the problem is showing your opinion counts for very little where you do not even recognise where the problems are. The fact is many do not want to even attempt to find work because they feel they will be discrminated by the employer, so just doing nothing by continuing their payments is not going to solve this problem is it?
Your methods is why countless people with mental health problems who do want to work fear trying. It should be round encouraging getting them back into work where there are many support services that do so.
So spare me the babble claiming I do not care, that is so detracting off the issue at hand.
Again I am not denying mistakes happen, and wish none happen, but your view and method is all wrong because you will see even more stay out of work when this is needed more than anything to bring meaning to their lives. It can increase their social circle and what is needed is for more employers to understand mental health problems to accomdate those that suffer. Being in employment is going to help them far more finnacially than being out of work, where money issues is a problem which encouraging them to workl can reliev part of these problems. Kepping them in an endless circle out of work is counter productive and in many cases makes the health far worse.
Sadly you see things again two dimensional and cannot see where trhe real problems are.

I know where the problem is

so stiffen the laws as apply to employers....FORCE them to take on people who are "pre stressed" and then provide the help they need.....

do you recon thats going to work???

do you really think that an employer is going to take on someone with a history of stress related illness??? and thus become liable for their further care?

you cant put the cart before the horse....the job has to be their to take...thats 1 point
the employer has to be able to "cope" with someone who quite frankly represents a loose cannon (as far as he is concerned)
how much extra is the employers insurance going to cost?
who's going to pay for it?

(and thats just a few "minor points")

You cannot force employers, blimey would you say they should enforce employers to employ black people because they are black you would go potty. People should be employed on their skills, but not discrminated on because of their mental helath issues. An ethos has to change within the employment industry of that I do not deny, but you cannot force employers to employ. What should be done is where they are qualified and they have been not offered the role that there is in place far greater chacks and scrtutiny of companies and massive fines if they are seen to be discrminating. How about introducing that all interviews are video recorded and that it can be checked if it coimes to it by independants if an interview has been conducted fairly. Being recorded has a way of stopping and preventing wrongs Victor

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:18 pm

Brasidas wrote:
darknessss wrote:

I know where the problem is

so stiffen the laws as apply to employers....FORCE them to take on people who are "pre stressed" and then provide the help they need.....

do you recon thats going to work???

do you really think that an employer is going to take on someone with a history of stress related illness??? and thus become liable for their further care?

you cant put the cart before the horse....the job has to be their to take...thats 1 point
the employer has to be able to "cope" with someone who quite frankly represents a loose cannon (as far as he is concerned)
how much extra is the employers insurance going to cost?
who's going to pay for it?

(and thats just a few "minor points")

You cannot force employers, blimey would you say they should enforce employers to employ black people because they are black you would go potty. People should be employed on their skills, but not discrminated on because of their mental helath issues. An ethos has to change within the employment industry of that I do not deny, but you cannot force employers to employ. What should be done is where they are qualified and they have been not offered the role that there is in place far greater chacks and scrtutiny of companies and massive fines if they are seen to be discrminating. How about introducing that all interviews are video recorded and that it can be checked if it coimes to it by independants if an interview has been conducted fairly. Being recorded has a way of stopping and preventing wrongs Victor

recording would be a start ...AND a good one too...

BUT how long before we THEN got the situation of people being sanctioned for saying the wrong thing at interview...
for fluffing their lines so to speak. this lot would stoop to ANY level to increase peoples misery...

however the idea has merit non the less....

but then...what about insurance

what about the employers responsibility for a pre-existing condition??
surely an employer cold take the view that it is uneconomical to employ someone with a pre-existing condition ...which they might well be expected to provide help with ...(beyond the requirements of "reasonable adaption")

I'm NOT saying it cant be done...but it requires a seismic shift in a lot of things.....
and THAT includes not only replacing the mental health facilities that have been lost...but increasing them....

agreed doctors can "recommend" specialist help....but when that help doesnt exist or is overstretched...then thats all but useless.....

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:27 pm

darknessss wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

You cannot force employers, blimey would you say they should enforce employers to employ black people because they are black you would go potty. People should be employed on their skills, but not discrminated on because of their mental helath issues. An ethos has to change within the employment industry of that I do not deny, but you cannot force employers to employ. What should be done is where they are qualified and they have been not offered the role that there is in place far greater chacks and scrtutiny of companies and massive fines if they are seen to be discrminating. How about introducing that all interviews are video recorded and that it can be checked if it coimes to it by independants if an interview has been conducted fairly. Being recorded has a way of stopping and preventing wrongs Victor

recording would be a start ...AND a good one too...

BUT how long before we THEN got the situation of people being sanctioned for saying the wrong thing at interview...
for fluffing their lines so to speak. this lot would stoop to ANY level to increase peoples misery...

however the idea has merit non the less....

but then...what about insurance

what about the employers responsibility for a pre-existing condition??
surely an employer cold take the view that it is uneconomical to employ someone with a pre-existing condition ...which they might well be expected to provide help with ...(beyond the requirements of "reasonable adaption")

I'm NOT saying it cant be done...but it requires a seismic shift in a lot of things.....
and THAT includes not only replacing the mental health facilities that have been lost...but increasing them....

agreed doctors can "recommend" specialist help....but when that help doesnt exist or is overstretched...then thats all but useless.....

Of course it requires changes Victor, I am not saying otherwise, but where something is recorded it makes those involved conduct the interview correctly and they will know they cannot discrminate, because all the interviews can be checked. Of course if there is little to choose from it could be very subjective, but you are placing a means to help prevent discrmination in the work place.
The culture has to change and measures are needed, where again in this instance there should be some positive discdmination where large coorporations that have the funds to help such people should have to have a qouto of employing a set small percentage of people with mental helath problems. We already have this in place in employment and to me it is more important to get many of these people back into employemnt, which can help change the ethos held by employers.
Of course employers can take this view that it is not economical, but by allowing a small percentage of positive discmination in a quota they have to employ, this will help combat the problem. I am all for who is best for the job, but this problem needs this assiatnce here to ensure more get employment

by veya_victaous Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:27 pm

Funny how the RW want to cut welfare and say get a job... but by supply and demand principal the people on welfare cant get a job.

No employer is demanding/seeking employees with mental health issues and there is supply of employees with out.. even without further discrimination You would have to ENCOURAGE employers to choose someone with an issue over someone with out and issue.
which then leaves someone with no issues without a job Suspect

rearranging deck chairs on the titanic..
real issue is too much has accumulated at the top thus without the middle and lower classes having money to spend on mid-range luxuries there is no demand for mid-range luxuries which is where a lot of jobs are created.
One super rich dude still just orders one coffee at the cafe not enough to keep it in business and it's staff employed, 1000 middle class families that have enough extra cash for a cafe coffee daily will.

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:29 pm

veya_victaous wrote:Funny how the RW want to cut welfare and say get a job... but by supply and demand principal the people on welfare cant get a job.

No employer is demanding/seeking employees with mental health issues and there is supply of employees with out.. even without further discrimination You would have to ENCOURAGE employers to choose someone with an issue over someone with out and issue.
which then leaves someone with no issues without a job rearranging deck chairs on the titanic..
real issue is too much has accumulated at the top thus without the middle and lower classes having money to spend on mid-range luxuries there is no demand for mid-range luxuries which is where a lot of jobs are created.
One super rich dude still just orders one coffee at the cafe not enough to keep it in business and it's staff employed, 1000 middle class families that have enough extra cash for a cafe coffee daily will.

Read back my last answer

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:33 pm

Any way Victor, is getting late. Am not a fan of positive discrmination, but in this instance and the problems of so many unemployed with mental health issues makes me take a difference stance in this instance where I think it wil be beneficia until the culture changes within the emoployment industry.

Night

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:35 pm

sleep well..

by Guest Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:38 pm

You to Victor

by veya_victaous Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:00 am

Brasidas wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:Funny how the RW want to cut welfare and say get a job... but by supply and demand principal the people on welfare cant get a job.

No employer is demanding/seeking employees with mental health issues and there is supply of employees with out.. even without further discrimination You would have to ENCOURAGE employers to choose someone with an issue over someone with out and issue.
which then leaves someone with no issues without a job rearranging deck chairs on the titanic..
real issue is too much has accumulated at the top thus without the middle and lower classes having money to spend on mid-range luxuries there is no demand for mid-range luxuries which is where a lot of jobs are created.
One super rich dude still just orders one coffee at the cafe not enough to keep it in business and it's staff employed, 1000 middle class families that have enough extra cash for a cafe coffee daily will.

Read back my last answer

the camera is an alright idea

but the Principal is from some La La land where only one person with the skills applies for a job..
REALITY is that any decent job will have several people that All deserve it based on their skills apply..
Employer has to choose, unless you put in some artificial factor they are going to pick the one with out the issues.

AGAIN it is pointless anyway as it is not the mentally ill that have put the UK economy in the toilet it is the super rich that have tripled the cost of living in comparison to wages in major cities like London. off shored most of the decent paying jobs to somewhere they can pay minimum and pocketed the difference. Leaving the middle class screwed and the middle class actually create jobs if they have money to spare as opposed to the Rich that create virtually no jobs by themselves.. (they only create jobs to take advantage of demand created by the other 99%)

by Irn Bru Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:31 am

Quill wrote some fine words on here a while back as he often does.

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

Seems quite appropriate here. Roll out the red carpet for the banksters and the tax evaders/avoiders and pound the poor, the sick, the mentally ill and the vulnerable for all their worth.

by Raggamuffin Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:30 am

darknessss wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Did not take long for the deabte to turn talking about me and what I care about which is for those suffering to get back into work and it is in the area of employers where the problem is showing your opinion counts for very little where you do not even recognise where the problems are. The fact is many do not want to even attempt to find work because they feel they will be discrminated by the employer, so just doing nothing by continuing their payments is not going to solve this problem is it?
Your methods is why countless people with mental health problems who do want to work fear trying. It should be round encouraging getting them back into work where there are many support services that do so.
So spare me the babble claiming I do not care, that is so detracting off the issue at hand.
Again I am not denying mistakes happen, and wish none happen, but your view and method is all wrong because you will see even more stay out of work when this is needed more than anything to bring meaning to their lives. It can increase their social circle and what is needed is for more employers to understand mental health problems to accomdate those that suffer. Being in employment is going to help them far more finnacially than being out of work, where money issues is a problem which encouraging them to workl can reliev part of these problems. Kepping them in an endless circle out of work is counter productive and in many cases makes the health far worse.
Sadly you see things again two dimensional and cannot see where trhe real problems are.

I know where the problem is

so stiffen the laws as apply to employers....FORCE them to take on people who are "pre stressed" and then provide the help they need.....

do you recon thats going to work???

do you really think that an employer is going to take on someone with a history of stress related illness??? and thus become liable for their further care?

you cant put the cart before the horse....the job has to be their to take...thats 1 point
the employer has to be able to "cope" with someone who quite frankly represents a loose cannon (as far as he is concerned)
how much extra is the employers insurance going to cost?
who's going to pay for it?

(and thats just a few "minor points")

I thought that those seeking jobs are not obliged to reveal anything about their health at the application or interview stage. How then would the employer know if someone had a history of stress-related illness?

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