Disturbing possibility that US forces raped boys in front of their mothers

According to a number of global mainstream media sources, the Pentagon is covering up a disturbing video that was never made public with the rest of the recent torture report.

According to various well respected journalists, including Seymour Hersh, the appalling video was recorded at Abu Ghraib, the notorious US torture dungeon in Iraq that made headlines roughly a decade ago, when the inhumane tactics being used at the prison were exposed.

Sadly, it seems that the evidence released years ago was only scratching the surface.

While the video has remained under wraps thus far, Hersh says it is only a matter of time before it comes out.

Giving a speech at the ACLU last week after the senate torture report was initially released, Hersh gave some insight into what was on the Pentagon’s secret tape.

In the most revealing portion of his speech he said that:

“Debating about it, ummm … Some of the worst things that happened you don’t know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib … The women were passing messages out saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what’s happened’ and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It’s going to come out.”

“It’s impossible to say to yourself how did we get there? Who are we? Who are these people that sent us there? When I did My Lai I was very troubled like anybody in his right mind would be about what happened. I ended up in something I wrote saying in the end I said that the people who did the killing were as much victims as the people they killed because of the scars they had, I can tell you some of the personal stories by some of the people who were in these units witnessed this. I can also tell you written complaints were made to the highest officers and so we’re dealing with a enormous massive amount of criminal wrongdoing that was covered up at the highest command out there and higher, and we have to get to it and we will. We will. You know there’s enough out there, they can’t (Applause). …. So it’s going to be an interesting election year.”

Put into context with another speech that Hersh gave earlier this year, it becomes clear that the women who witnessed these young boys being raped were actually their mothers.

At a speech in Chicago this past June Hersh was quoted as saying:

“You haven’t begun to see evil… horrible things done to children of women prisoners, as the cameras run.”

Other stories at the London Guardian also talked of young Iraqi detainees getting violently raped by US soldiers.

Ten years ago when the initial Abu Ghraib scandal was in the news, the Guardian published the testimony of an Abu Ghraib detainee who allegedly witnessed one of these brutal attacks.

Former detainee Kasim Hilas said in their testimony that:

“I saw [name blacked out] fucking a kid, his age would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [blacked out], who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid’s ass, I couldn’t see the face of the kid because his face wasn’t in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures.”

Now, over a decade later the evidence of these events are beginning to surface, but the Department of Defense is still doing their best to keep it under the radar. That is why now more than ever, it is important to keep the pressure on and force the release of this evidence, while the torture report is fresh in the minds of the general population.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/classified-evidence-us-soldiers-raped-boys-in-front-of-their-mothers/200160/


If this turns out to be true, damn them to hell, and damn the people higher up who let them get away with it and probably sanctioned it.

Can't see that happening, sounds like a bit of bullshit put out to make the Yanks look bad. Would have to have more evidence before I condemned them.

Hardly if they have the video evidence. The used sexual things to degrade prisoners, that's already been shown.

That Is disgusting, but actual rape! If so there must be lots of Homosexuals employed as prison guards. I just can't see it happening. What do other posters think?

Guys rape guys in prison all the time nicko, it doesn't make the attackers homosexual- it means many men, removed almost entirely from female company and having gone a while without sex- will find other ways of 'satisfying' their animalistic urges- and certainly those where they are in a position of power to abuse.

nicko wrote:That Is disgusting, but actual rape! If so there must be lots of Homosexuals employed as prison guards. I just can't see it happening.  What do other posters think?

The guards in Abu Ghraib were told to use ANYTHING to torture and dehumanise the prisoners, that's already been established by the photo's that were leaked and the subsequent enquiry. Had nothing to do with the guards wanting sex. It was systematic abuse using any means possible.

They used dogs on naked prisoners:



http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=8560

Raping their children was just another kind of torture, especially if they saw it and heard it.

Articles like this are mindless stupidity beyond belief.
If there has been torture, yes those involved should be dealt with, but to make claims where there is no clear evidence, is just providing more ammunition for islamic extremist groups and providing them with the means and ammunition to recruit more to their cause.

This is when the media is utterly stupid beyond belief and how it can create far more problem than it thinks it is helping with. I suggest we await the evidence on this, but make such poor assumptions is just making groups like ISIS rub their hands in glee at such information who will use such information to the clear loss of life that will result from this for such naivety by the media.
How manhy will die because the media here has been so utterly stupid?

Yes mindless stupidity

I'd rather people who were doing that were brought to justice, to show the extremists that we don't allow it. One of their points is that the West tortures with imputinity and no one pays for it. Take that smoking gun away from them.

risingsun wrote:I'd rather people who were doing that were brought to justice, to show the extremists that we don't allow it.  One of their points is that the West tortures with imputinity and no one pays for it.  Take that smoking gun away from them.

Do you really think the extremists give a fuck about that?
Of course they do not. To them this is prime time propaganda to use, where again we do not even know if this is true. Which is the worst part, we do not know if this has happened, it is nothing more than rumours, but this will be all over the Islamic wrold as if it is true.

Stupidity beyond belief.

That's your opinion and most certainly not mine.    The video exists and will come out and I for one don't want it swept under the carpet.  I don't go around with rose tinted glasses.

Your opinion seems to be, let them do what they want as long as nobody finds out about it.

risingsun wrote:That's your opinion and most certainly not mine.    The video exists and will come out and I for one don't want it swept under the carpet.  I don't go around with rose tinted glasses.

Your opinion seems to be, let them do what they want as long as nobody finds out about it.

Its not an opinion its common sense. You have something that is a rumour to then make out it is a fact, is you basing a belief it is true and even worse you want it to be true on something that happened years ago. If people have done wrong then fine prosecute. Annoucing this to the world is a propganda goldmine for the extremists. Will it take people being executed based on this information for you to realise the significance of this or does that not even enter your mind of the possible consequences of such mindless stupidty by some of the media outlets.

You do realise this is now a new type of warfare being waged through the media, of which as seen ISIS are using to their advantage. If you cannot see how this is a media disaster then I cannot help you. Untill ISIS and other extremist groups have been neutralized then there should be a media blackout on such crap. We are at war with such groups and the last thing you do is provide your enemy with the ammunition they need, Seriiously immagine if this was WW2 at Alan Turning and co had to let the world know they had to allow some conveys to be attacked and people killed in order that they could in fact save 14 million lives in the end and shorten the war? Imagine how many millions more and how longer the war went on for. This is why the left in my view aid the enemy in the time of war in our mordern society. In time of war such things should be censured, because you cause far more loss of life by such naivety. You do not advantage your enemy, of which this assumption to a crime certainly does.

Have to agree with you didge.

You have conveniently forgotten about all of this then where it is mentioned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse#Other_abuses

n 2004, Antonio Taguba, a major general in the U.S. Army, wrote in the Taguba Report that a detainee had been sodomized with "a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick."[30] In 2009, Taguba stated that there was photographic evidence of rape having occurred at Abu Ghraib.[31] An Abu Ghraib detainee told investigators that he heard an Iraqi teenage boy screaming, and saw an Army translator having sex with him, while a female soldier took pictures.[32] A witness identified the alleged rapist as an American-Egyptian who worked as a translator. In 2009, he was the subject of a civil court case in the United States.[31] Another photo shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner.[31] Other photos show interrogators sexually assaulting prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube, and a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.[31] Taguba supported United States President Barack Obama's decision not to release the photos, stating, "These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency."[31] Obama, who initially agreed to release the photographs, later changed his mind, as he believed their release would put troops in danger and "inflame anti-American public opinion".[31]

In other instances of sexual abuse, soldiers were found to have raped female inmates, and senior U.S. officials admitted that rape had taken place at Abu Ghraib.[33][34] Some of the women who had been raped became pregnant, and in some cases, were later killed by their family members in what were thought to be instances of honor killing.[35] In addition, children were raped in front of their mothers.[36]

The point is not what happened, that has already been admitted, it's the fact they did not know it had been filmed before to bring anyone to justice.

I've often wondered...I thought that Lynndie England...ya know, that kind of behavior has to have had a context. I mean, they didn't sexualize what was going on for just one night, did they?

If its embarrassing, it's Republican!

nicko wrote:Have to agree with you didge.

Agreed Nicko.
Until the problem is neutralized, such stories like this serve no purpose and even worse we are beginning to understand the real problem here is Wahhabism, where evidence is coming to light of Saudi's involvement in 9/11. We invaded the wrong nation, which is coming apparent now. Saudi has been state funding terrorism for years it seems. I am all for such things to come out in the public eye after the threat has been neutralized, not provide the enemy with a tactical advantage, when they are self imploding by their barbarity. Now they have this claim, not backed up evidence, to use to justify their violence to recruit more. The media sometimes do not even realise how they aid the enemy. They care more about their own vanity and selling and story with no care for the consequences of what they publish

Have trouble reading? IT HAS ALREADY BEEN ADMITTED. Read the Wiki-link about, admitted YEARS AGO. Now the Pentagon have said there is a tape of it, that's what they didn't know before. You might want to sweep it under the carpet, which makes you a torture apologist, most decent people want them prosecuted for it, as was Lyndie England and the others.

risingsun wrote:Have trouble reading?  IT HAS ALREADY BEEN ADMITTED.  Read the Wiki-link about, admitted YEARS AGO.  Now the Pentagon have said there is a tape of it, that's what they didn't know before.  You might want to sweep it under the carpet, which makes you a torture apologist, most decent people want them prosecuted for it, as was Lyndie England and the others.

Wiki can be written by anybody, so that is moot and still even if it as true, it is a tactical blunder to bring up whilst in the mists of a war with extremist Islam. This is why the left do not have a clue. Things like this should be classified, because of the further consequences of them helping and aiding the enemy. Like I said after the enemy is neutralized then bring it to the public attention. You can certainly act on this in private and commit those to war crimes. So nobody is stating anything about sweeping under the carpet. Try actually reading what is being stated. Your tactical blunder will cost lives and for what? Nothing. Nobody is going to face any trial over this as the US ill never convict anyone over this. So what have you achieved? Justice for the victims?
Not a chance, you certainly have ended up giving the enemy a tactical weapon to use against them and recruited more to their cause and worst of helped in sure more die.

Bravo

FGS, They have already prosecuted people for some of the lesser stuff, therefore it is only right that this, the most heinous crime of all, has the perpetrators behind bars. I can't believe anyone would consider that people who rape children in front of their mothers should get away with it.

risingsun wrote:FGS, They have already prosecuted people for some of the lesser stuff, therefore it is only right that this, the most heinous crime of all, has the perpetrators behind bars.  I can't believe anyone would consider that people who rape children in front of their mothers should get away with it.

Show me where I stated they should get away with it?
I never did, this is why the left are clueless. Again there is no clarity this has happened with raping children
Read again

Wiki can be written by anybody, so that is moot and still even if it as true, it is a tactical blunder to bring up whilst in the mists of a war with extremist Islam. This is why the left do not have a clue. Things like this should be classified, because of the further consequences of them helping and aiding the enemy. Like I said after the enemy is neutralized then bring it to the public attention. You can certainly act on this in private and commit those to war crimes. So nobody is stating anything about sweeping under the carpet. Try actually reading what is being stated. Your tactical blunder will cost lives and for what? Nothing. Nobody is going to face any trial over this as the US ill never convict anyone over this. So what have you achieved? Justice for the victims?
Not a chance, you certainly have ended up giving the enemy a tactical weapon to use against them and recruited more to their cause and worst of helped in sure more die.

Bravo

Right, so even though the US thought that the torture in the prison was bad enough for a public enquiry and public trials, you think it should all be done undercover, without the citizens knowing about it. You have lost your moral compass.

risingsun wrote:Right, so even though the US thought that the torture in the prison was bad enough for a public enquiry and public trials, you think it should all be done undercover, without the citizens knowing about it.  You have lost your moral compass.

If there is a case to answer on this and evidence it has happened, it should be done behind closed doors that they are judged in court. We even do this for some Muslim terrorists in this country. There is more at stake here than some media story, which is what you fail to understand. So my morals are that much better than yours because whilst I still believe they should be tried if guilty, but that it should remain classified from the public until the problem of ISIS, ALQaeda etc has been neutralized, because I see the repercussions of such information being a tactical advantage to these groups. This means you have people if guilty placed in jail but that you do not need to know about it until later. You by your tactical blunder place more lives at risk. The greater need outweighs your need to know.

I burst out laughing at this bit

'This means you have people if guilty placed in jail but that you do not need to know about it until later.'

So if it turns out that senior Bush officials and maybe even Rumsfield himself were complicit in what went on, and if their families and the public wonder where they are, should be told they've gone on holiday for a bit?

All this stuff has been in the public domain for years and people just want to know the truth about what happened and who at the higher end may have been involved. When that doesn't happen then people who want justice served will demand that it does and it's more damaging if these things are not dealt with as it just leaves the very people that you cite to claim there is a cover up and use that. ISIS and the Taliban etc. don't need anything to justify what they do, they're just pure evil anyway.

Suggest you read the key excerpts from the report that was published on the Military Police Brigade investigation Oct 19 2004 about the abuse. Seymour Hersh is a respected journalist who was awarded The Pulitzer Prize for his outstanding work in exposing the My Lai massacre in Vietnam in 1970 and a lot of his evidence for what he says is being hidden or concealed is based on that Oct 19 2004 report.

Taking your opinions further, do you think then that the Chilcot Iraq inquiry should have been held behind closed doors and if there is any evidence of serious wrongdoing (possibly criminal) found that it should be hushed up and those responsible for it punished but spirited away somewhere in secret without telling anyone about it until ISIS etc have been eliminated as they may well use it for propaganda purposes?

risingsun wrote:I burst out laughing at this bit

'This means you have people if guilty placed in jail but that you do not need to know about it until later.'

So if it turns out that senior Bush officials and maybe even Rumsfield himself were complicit in what went on, and if their families and the public wonder where they are,  should be told they've gone on holiday for a bit?

All this stuff has been in the public domain for years and people just want to know the truth about what happened and who at the higher end may have been involved. When that doesn't happen then people who want justice served will demand that it does and it's more damaging if these things are not dealt with as it just leaves the very people that you cite to claim there is a cover up and use that.  ISIS and the Taliban etc. don't need anything to justify what they do, they're just pure evil anyway.

Suggest you read the key excerpts from the report that was published on the Military Police Brigade investigation Oct 19 2004 about the abuse. Seymour Hersh is a respected journalist who was awarded The Pulitzer Prize for his outstanding work in exposing the My Lai massacre in Vietnam in 1970 and a lot of his evidence for what he says is being hidden or concealed is based on that Oct 19 2004 report.

Taking your opinions further, do you think then that the Chilcot Iraq inquiry should have been held behind closed doors and if there is any evidence of serious wrongdoing (possibly criminal) found that it should be hushed up and those responsible for it punished but spirited away somewhere in secret without telling anyone about it until ISIS etc have been eliminated as they may well use it for propaganda purposes?

Again missing the whole point, we already know about crimes or supposed crimes committed which does not though help deal with the current climate being faced with an enemy that is using a new form of warfare which is being played out throughout the media all of which seems to go above your intellect. You are now changing the discourse of the debate to other areas of investigation which again in my view should stay only within the realms out of public view until a time when these extremist groups have been neutralized. This is about you gaining some knowledge of events, well tough luck, in times of war there are far more important strategical and tactical factors at play and all such discourse open to the public is prime ammunition for such groups to act upon to sow further discourse not only within the Muslim world but to Muslims within our own country. Again you fail to see the bigger picture because all you are seeking is some open justice which can be justice without the need to make public as of yet.

So you want to know the truth, well for years, we had little knowledge of many of the events in WW2 and our lives did not stop because important aspects had to remain classified. This is more about your selfish need of wanting to know about something. This does not mean people should not face criminal action as I am a strong advocate that people like Blair and Bush should be tried as war criminals, but this should be behind closed doors, because there is more at stake here than your own selfish needs. That is the well being of many people in an already highly volatile growing situation. All that matters at present is people face the penalties for their crimes, of which you have shifted the argument from an unclassified claim to now something bigger and wider. Again the point here is on preventing further disharmony into an already difficult situation where unity is required, which is not going to happen based off some unsubstantiated claim on some US soldiers. Itis typical of the left that they have no clue of strategy or of the dangers of such disclosure. Something promised to be later classified leaves people with little option but to wait and denies any use of the extremists of the means to use such information to retaliate or further their goals.

You have so much to learn and why the left should never be in charge in times of extreme danger as the world faces today. So even though you have widened the goal posts to reach the moon, the point is on the stupidity of such an unsubstantiated article which only helps to further heighten tension and problems giving extremists groups the needed ammunition they need to cause further harm

Same areas of investigation, exactly the same.  So, have you read the report, it makes chilling reading.

So, do I take it that you don't want the Chilcott Report published to give Al Qaeda something to use?

risingsun wrote:Same areas of investigation, exactly the same.  So, have you read the report, it makes chilling reading.

Irrelevant to my points. Your self gratification on the scale of needs is on the lower end of the spectrum. The needs of the well being of others is far greater and you need to understand that.
At present we are a tipping point that could shift whole societies against each other based on religion and there is mindless people on both sides making this a reality. The common goal at present is to work first together in defeating the Islamist movements and the Muslim world have a far more powerful discourse against the Islamist. The religion as is in bad need of reformation, which is slowly starting to happen and will grow. We have seen this we the first Arab springs, which were too early because not enough people had been swayed to progress these societies. It was mainly the youth, but within another generation more will come to see the freedoms they can have and challenge the existing dogma that is found within Muslim countries.

Not in the least irrelavant and rest of your post is pure gobbledegook.

All exactly to the point, unlike the rubbish above. So, have you read the report I am talking about, re the torture at Abu Ghraib?

risingsun wrote:Not in the least irrelavant and rest of your post is pure gobbledegook.

All exactly to the point, unlike the rubbish above.  So, have you read the report I am talking about, re the torture at Abu Ghraib?

Still not countering my points and going off your own selfish needs which in the light of the spectrum of needs, yours will come lowest. Again there is a need to judge those who have done wrong, but the world can wait to know the details later. What is far more important now is winning war against a very evil ideology, which is attempting to suck the world into global conflict. Your needs are far of lesser importance here as countless times explained

You make no points.  You do realise that NBC did a big programme on the report?  And it's not MY needs, ask Quill why he wants Rumsfeld etc in jail.  Its the people of the USA who opposed the war and opposed what was done in that jail that want the rest of it to come out, because they have the morals to say 'not in my name', although that doesn't seem to be something that worries you, which is why I would like to know if you want the Chilcott Report published.

So, do you know of the report, do you know of the NBC programme?

risingsun wrote:You make no points.  You do realise that NBC did a big programme on the report?  And it's not MY needs, ask Quill why he was Rumsfeld etc in jail.  Its the people of the USA who opposed the war and opposed what was done in their name that want the rest of it to come out, because they have the morals to say 'not in my name', although that doesn't seem to be something that worries you, which is why I would like to know if you want the Chilcott Report published.

So, do you know of the report, do you know of the NBC programme?

Still missing all the points, your selfish needs are insignificant to the greater need and well being of others.
Nobody is saying nobody should not be tried over this, you just do not need to know the details until later when a threat has been neutralized for the thousandth time.
Tough luck basically

As I said, not MY needs, its the people of the USA who are calling for it.

So, have you read the report so you know what you are talking about, did you see the programme about the report?

Oh, and the tough luck?  That was the luck that the little boys, who have an adult dick stuck up their bottom that ripped them apart in front of the mothers, had.

risingsun wrote:As I said, not MY needs, its the people of the USA who are calling for it.

So, have you read the report so you know what you are talking about, did you see the programme about the report?

How is it the needs of the American people, because you just said so?
That is sheer babble. The needs of the American people at the moment is their safety and unity. Their lives are not going to stop if they do not know the trial details of some claim to rape to children, of which has not been clarified. This is about denying any means for the likes of IS, Al Qaeda etc maximizing their psychological warfare they are using within the internet and media. Seriously get a grip, you lefties think you need to know everything in the world, you don't, what is more important is preventing this growing problem escalating to war onto western streets as well as the Middle east

Oh, and BTW, don't you think the 'other side' already know about it? After all, those mothers and children would have screamed about it to their relatives etc, or do you think they would have kept quiet so as not to make the Americans look bad

risingsun wrote:Oh, and BTW, don't you think the 'other side' already know about it?  After all, those mothers and children would have screamed about it to their relatives etc, or do you think they would have kept quiet so as not to make the Americans look bad

Well that does not seem to be the case does it.

Oh dear, haven't you heard about people calling for Rumsfeld, Cheney etc to be jailed? You must lead a very sheltered life, and didn't you know that Iraq and what went on there was beind the calling for them to be jailed?

So, have you read the report or seen the programme or are you just talking about something you know nothing about? Sound more and more like it.

Brasidas wrote:

risingsun wrote:Oh, and BTW, don't you think the 'other side' already know about it?  After all, those mothers and children would have screamed about it to their relatives etc, or do you think they would have kept quiet so as not to make the Americans look bad

Well that does not seem to be the case does it.

Really? My you are uninformed:


Good Behavior? Iraqis React to Release of Ringleader of Abu Ghraib Abuse


Good Behavior? Iraqis React to Release of Ringleader of Abu Ghraib Abuse
By Michael S. Schmidt
August 9, 2011 1:49 pm August 9, 2011 1:49 pm
Baghdad Bureau

BAGHDAD — Seven years have passed since it was revealed that detainees at Abu Ghraib prison were abused by American soldiers.
Charles A. Graner Jr. in Fort Hood, Texas, at the time of his 205 court-martial.Lm Otero/Associated PressCharles A. Graner Jr. in Fort Hood, Texas, at the time of his 2005 court-martial.

Over that time, nine soldiers have been convicted in American courts in connection with the abuse — several receiving lengthy prison sentences.
See At War’s multi-author history of Abu Ghraib prison, with accounts from inmates and Times journalists.

— Stephen Farrell, At War

The military handed over control of Abu Ghraib to the Iraqi government in September 2006. And President Obama has declared an end to the United States “combat mission” in Iraq. But Iraqis are still particularly angry – and at times confused – about how the United States punishes those who committed crimes against Iraqis during the eight-year war.

These sentiments tend to re-emerge when there are developments in the investigations and court cases. In April, I first interviewed Iraqis about this subject while reporting on how a federal appeals court in Washington had reopened the case against contractors for the security firm Blackwater, an organization widely hated in Iraq. The contractors had been accused of killing 17 people after firing wildly in Nisour Square in Baghdad in 2007.

The charges against the contractors had been thrown in 2009, stoking fears among Iraqis that the contractors were never going to be brought to justice.

After learning that the charges had been reinstated, Iraqis did not rejoice.

On Saturday, a development in another case in the United States elicited anger from the Iraqis. In this instance, the news was that one of the soldiers who was the so-called ringleader at Abu Ghraib, Charles A. Graner Jr., was released from a prison in Kansas.

Mr. Graner, 42, had been sentenced to 10 years in prison but was released after six and a half for good behavior.

On Sunday and Monday, our correspondents here spoke to several Iraqis who didn’t understand why Mr. Graner was being let out of prison. The Iraqis said that this was yet more proof of how the United States was not holding its citizens accountable.

“This is a scandal of American justice,” said Mo’ead Qasim, 34, of Baghdad. “I still remember the photos of the naked Iraqi prisoners. They humiliated the Iraqis in a bad way, and this is what they give us in return? I thought that the man who did this awful thing was going to be locked up for many years.”

Khalid Muhammed, a 48-year-old businessman from Baghdad, said that the release of Mr. Graner proved that Americans “do not care about the blood of Iraqis.”

“This is a good thing because it shows who they really are, and this will make it clear to whoever supports the Americans that they should stop believing in them, especially those who think that the Americans have saved us,” he said.

He added, “Americans are free to kill and commit acts of terrorism because at the end they will be freed because of the unjust laws they have there.”

Mona Habeeb Al-Dory, 42, a teacher from Baghdad, said she was surprised to hear the news. “Why did they set him free after conducting such bad things against Iraqis? I agree with the armed groups if they will kill Americans. The U.S. government lost its credibility in Iraq and the world.”

For many Iraqis, Abu Ghraib was the first event in a string of atrocities committed against them by the Americans. Just a year after it became public, Marines were accused of killing 24 civilians and raping a young girl in the city of Haditha. Two years after that, the Blackwater episode occurred.

Hamid Fadhil, a professor of political science at Baghdad University, said Americans had proved more than once that they will not seek justice for Iraqis.

“They said that the killers were innocent,” he said, referring to the Blackwater case. “So this is not a new thing for the United States that they free prisoners who have Iraqi blood on their hands.”

Mr. Graner’s release from prison on Saturday occurred just three days after the Iraqi government said that it would negotiate with the United States about keeping some of the 48,000 troops here beyond the end of the year.

“The only solution is to get the American Army out of Iraq,” said Feras Hassan, a carpet shop owner in Baghdad, when asked about Mr. Graner’s release.

“Now we need to tell the U.S. occupation to stop,” said Fadhel Hossein, 35, an Iraqi police officer. “Before I hated Saddam. But now I discovered that he was right about fighting the U.S., and to fight all Iraq’s enemies.”

If American troops remain in Iraq, the Department of Defense will almost certainly insist that they have immunity against prosecution, an issue Iraqis feel strongly about because of Abu Ghraib and the other episodes.

“We in Parliament will not give any U.S. soldier the immunity to stay in Iraq after this year so that they can kill and do whatever they want,” said Nahida al-Dayni, a member of the Iraqiya bloc, which is one of the political factions most open to having American troops remain in Iraq.

Ali Akram, 29, a taxi driver in Baghdad, said he heard on the radio the news of Mr. Graner’s release and said that it showed why Iraqis “need to fight the U.S. in every way possible.”

Nawara Moman, 31, a dressmaker, said, “I want Obama to stop this comedy. This is not fair. Obama and Bush are responsible for this disaster.” She added, “I ask Obama to do the right thing to punish the murderer because their forces are in Iraq now, and we do not know what will happen to them.”

What surprised me the most about the reactions of the Iraqis was that some blamed their own government.

“Our government is very weak,” said Mr. Hassan, the carpet shop owner. “They are busy appointing ministers and with corruption. They will not say something about it. No one will hold America accountable for this, for the damages they brought to our country, or for the dark future we have.”

Haider Hikmet, a 40-year-old butcher from Baghdad, said, “If U.S. justice didn’t punish him, I am sure God will. I will never forget what the man did, torturing the prisoners. America, with this decision, has created more enemies in Iraq.”

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/good-behavior-iraqis-react-to-release-of-ringleader-of-abu-ghraib-abuse/?_r=0

risingsun wrote:Oh dear, haven't you heard about people calling for Rumsfeld, Cheney etc to be jailed?  You must lead a very sheltered life, and didn't you know that Iraq and what went on there was beind the calling for them to be jailed?

So, have you read the report or seen the programme or are you just talking about something you know nothing about?  Sound more and more like it.

Still missing all the points and now turning your views onto me, because you have not counter a single point I have made. Things should stayed classified and for a reason as already explained until a time when they can be made public. We are at war and one that could lead and engulf the whole world. I suggest you look at this aspect more than your own needs to know about something


Game over well and truly.

You haven't made a single point. You said that it shouldn't come out because it will aid the enemy, it already has and the 'enemy' already know about it, as shown above. You said that the information should not be put out to the public, the public and the Iraqi's have known about it for at least 10 years. You said that they should be prosecuted in private and didn't realise that the people that the American public want prosecuted are in high office and you would have to explain why they suddenly disappear. You obviously have not read the report, don't know why the Americans are calling for Rumsfield etc to be jailed and don't understand that they didn't want it done 'in their name' and want the revelations to be complete, 100% out in the open, just as we are calling for the Chilcott Report to be complete, 100% and out in the open.

So, have you read the report so you know what you are talking about or not? Straight yes or no will be fine.

BTW, Do you think the Chilcott enquiry should have been held behind closed doors and if any evidence of criminality emerges that it should be hushed up as ISIS will use it for propaganda? Straight answer please.

And do you think that the movie Sniper should have been banned as ISIS would use it to show American's on Muslim lands shooting Muslims. That's what ISIS would do isn't it? Again straight answer please.

Sorry still waiting for you to address a single one of my points., You have so transgressed from the original article it is now a separate debate. Learn to start countering points instead of moving the goal posts all the time to the point at hand.
Though no doubt you will continue in the same vain as you always do, so you can attempt to actually answer my points or there as seen you have nothing or relevance to say and the debate is over.

Good luck if you do want to engage in this, but please do not waste my time. so to help you:



Again missing the whole point, we already know about crimes or supposed crimes committed which does not though help deal with the current climate being faced with an enemy that is using a new form of warfare which is being played out throughout the media all of which seems to go above your intellect. You are now changing the discourse of the debate to other areas of investigation which again in my view should stay only within the realms out of public view until a time when these extremist groups have been neutralized. This is about you gaining some knowledge of events, well tough luck, in times of war there are far more important strategical and tactical factors at play and all such discourse open to the public is prime ammunition for such groups to act upon to sow further discourse not only within the Muslim world but to Muslims within our own country. Again you fail to see the bigger picture because all you are seeking is some open justice which can be justice without the need to make public as of yet.

So you want to know the truth, well for years, we had little knowledge of many of the events in WW2 and our lives did not stop because important aspects had to remain classified. This is more about your selfish need of wanting to know about something. This does not mean people should not face criminal action as I am a strong advocate that people like Blair and Bush should be tried as war criminals, but this should be behind closed doors, because there is more at stake here than your own selfish needs. That is the well being of many people in an already highly volatile growing situation. All that matters at present is people face the penalties for their crimes, of which you have shifted the argument from an unclassified claim to now something bigger and wider. Again the point here is on preventing further disharmony into an already difficult situation where unity is required, which is not going to happen based off some unsubstantiated claim on some US soldiers. Itis typical of the left that they have no clue of strategy or of the dangers of such disclosure. Something promised to be later classified leaves people with little option but to wait and denies any use of the extremists of the means to use such information to retaliate or further their goals.

You have so much to learn and why the left should never be in charge in times of extreme danger as the world faces today. So even though you have widened the goal posts to reach the moon, the point is on the stupidity of such an unsubstantiated article which only helps to further heighten tension and problems giving extremists groups the needed ammunition they need to cause further harm

Good luck

So, you haven't read the report, didn't know the information was already out there, won't answer any of the very straight questions I put to you and obviously haven't got a clue about the whole thing.

Perhaps when you work out the answers I'll come back, until then there is no point in talking to someone with absolutely no grasp of the situation and no knowledge of the report. So I'll leave you to it. Shame that something that came of signify all that was bad about the Iraq War is so far beyond your comprehension.

Debate over I guess, you had your chance countless times and not going to have you dictate the debate.
Learn to counter what has been debated.

Yes, nail on head, learn to counter and to anwer questions put to you that are completely relevant to the point instead of waffling on about things that have no bearing on the situation in any way and are just a load of hot air. The debate is well and truly over because you didn't have a clue what you were talking about and made no points to refute.

Fess up - you didn't read the report and didn't know what you were talking about, just kept digging because you didn't have the guts to say so.

And yes, you are:

The report is irrelvant to the points I making and because you had no answer to my points you now go on about a previous report.
Moot point on every level, so either counter my points which you always fail to do or start a new thread on this report. This is an assumption on rape to children here and you use wiki which can be altered by many people, is not valid evidence.
This is what you always do when I tear apart your views, you move the goals posts.
The left never have much comprehension on strategy, I had to teach this to Irn over the falklands.