School for LGBT pupils planned for Manchester

School will teach 40 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students who are struggling in mainstream education.

The first school in Britain for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender young people could open its doors within the next three years. Based in the centre of Manchester, the specialist state school plans to take 40 full-time students from across the area and will offer up to 20 part-time places for young people who want to continue attending a mainstream school.
“This is about saving lives,” said Amelia Lee, strategic director for LGBT Youth North West, the youth work charity behind the plans. “Despite the laws that claim to protect gay people from homophobic bullying, the truth is that in schools especially, bullying is still incredibly common and causes young people to feel isolated and alienated, which often leads to truanting and, in the worst-case scenarios, to suicide.”
Last September 14-year-old Elizabeth Lowe hanged herself in a Manchester park because she feared telling her parents that she was gay. “Lizzie felt the only option was to kill herself. There was another girl with a similar story in Bolton,” said Lee. “This is not about making a little, safe enclave away from the real world: we work with 9,000 mainstream pupils and 1,000 teachers a year to help educate them about homosexuality. In addition, the support this new school will offer to part-time pupils could happen in their mainstream school, if that’s what they want,” she said.


http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jan/16/school-for-lesbian-gay-bisexual-transgender-pupils-manchester


As much as this may seem the right way forward, to me it is not actually dealing with the problems faced by LGBT youngsters, it is just puushing the problem to one side. Not this is practical where we should be ensuring no matter just LGBT people have no problems with schools but we do away with any schools that segregate, as it fails to again deal with the problems. To me, if you are going to have an integrated society, then their should be no faith or single sex schools etc, as children are better placed growing up together with people of all faiths, ethnicity, gender and sexuality. Yes there will always be problems, but it should be about tackling these problems, not pushing them to one side.

I am in agreement with you there, once it became known that there was "special" school for these people I can imagine the local yobs hanging about outside making life hell for you pupils.

nicko wrote:I am in agreement with you there,  once it became known that there was "special" school for these people I can imagine the local yobs hanging about outside  making life hell for you pupils.

Agreed Nicko
It could well become a bigger problem. Where as a I say you do not resolve a problem by segregating people, even if the intention is for the right reasons. At least within the school where they are all together you can work on resolving the problem within the school. If seperate schools and they are bullied outside and now knowing that it is a school for the LGTB makes them become a clearly marked target. As they will be seen going in and out of the school by bullies. This is not the best idea at all and one that will create more problems than it will resolve.

As I say, you do not resolve a problem just by pushing problems to one side. My view would be to expand an exsisting school to accomdate the needs for all LGTB students, which to me can help their needs and deal with the many problems they face.

This is all the worse as things are actually improving for LGBT people all round, including in schools. Even when I was in school it would have been impossible for me to come out as gay- but now things are so much different.

This is totally counter productive. As you say didge ANY sort of segregated education is wrong.

Segregation;
Apartheid;
"Bussing" of students;
Single sex schools...

THERE have been plenty of examples of politicians, bureaucrats and their "social engineers" getting it wrong in the past..

BUT some of those inmates placed in charge of the asylum keep on refusing to learn from past mistakes, don't they !

It depends on how badly they are struggling , 40 places is very small, I think this is a media beat up.

Due to the small size of the program I believe this must be for extreme cases, there is definite evidence that ALL Children actually benefit from lower student to teacher ratios and individually targeted tuition. finances means that we can afford it for all children but there are several similar programs that target different 'special needs' kids.
The High rate of suicide amongst LGBT teesn to me suggest there could easily be 40 that could benefit from this sort of program.


Suggesting Segregation as an Across the board solution for all LGBT teens is of course ridiculous

It is not just LGBT though Veya, it is a not a segregated school as such because it will cater for young carers and parents with mental health issues (though this i unlikely as places will be all taken up already), but its main purpose is for LGTB children who have struggled in mainstream education. What are these same kids going to do when they work? Ask for a segregated office from their other co-workers as some might be bullies? Continually move jobs? You see these places are leading them up for a fall, where the main issue should be on helping them in the school they are in. I know they have had one in the US for years such a school, but it has constant directed hate towards it. Which is the last thing these children will need. Let alone those Not LGBT who may get to attend, as they will be stereotyped as LGBT for attending and bullied as well, to add on to their already mental health problems.
To me you deal with he problems within the school/ Taking and pushing their problems to one side will not helped them overcome the battles and problems they will face in life from prejudice people. Now we know the kids at Harvey Milk School in the US are subjected to countless hate and protests. I doubt going to a place where many will target them with hate, is going to make anything any better for their education. If that child is clearly having difficulties then this should come from resources in the school, the GP's etc, they require additional help and to give them that help .

and the kid kills them self in the mean time
Ever think the Kid needs training how to deal with their Life experiences. Part of the reason why some experience more severe issues is because they have other social issues as well. Regular Schools are simply not equipped to deal with severe case.

The Separation is mainly due to the costs involved it is far cheaper to target the program in one location than multiple, plus it allows the 'system' to control more of the variables such as other students... Normally kids don't stay in these sort of schools, they are used to help them catch up while dealing with their specific issue that regular schools are not equipped to cope with (largely due to financial constraints)

Additionally..... Yes some LGBT people do some times have to seek employment in LGBT friendly industries and employers.. that is reality at the moment

I remember when I was in school and disabled kids rode "the short bus" and had separate classes, and they were horribly bullied. My job has kept me in touch with what schools are like now and that's been abolished, the kids are integrated into mainstream classrooms and they're much more accepted now.

But like veya says, I don't see the LGBT school as the spark of a trend.

veya_victaous wrote:and the kid kills them self in the mean time  
Ever think the Kid needs training how to deal with their Life experiences. Part of the reason why some experience more severe issues is because they have other social issues as well. Regular Schools are simply not equipped to deal with severe case.

The Separation is mainly due to the costs involved it is far cheaper to target the program in one location than multiple, plus it allows the 'system' to control more of the variables such as other students... Normally kids don't stay in these sort of schools, they are used to help them catch up while dealing with their specific issue that regular schools are not equipped to cope with (largely due to financial constraints)

Additionally..... Yes some LGBT people do some times have to seek employment in LGBT friendly industries and employers.. that is reality at the moment

Hang on a minute, you are trying to widen the goals posts to things many children have problems with. Which should be the same for all, the same help. This is based around who have struggled in mainstream education with things like bullying. You cannot decide who gets preferential treatment, where again you fail to grasp being as there is schools already like this that receive untold abuse thrown at the students. Thus failing to grasp how in anyway it will help. With again this is not preparing them to deal with the real word. When they are cut off from many other different people in other schools school, the one place you do meet so make different kinds of people of faiths, ethnicity etc. Hiding them away is going to make life even more problematic when they go to work or UNI. You are basically casting them as abnormal, when they are very much normal and just nee greater support from the many things that can be done. You will end up with a far worse situation. Where now you do not even need to go the same school any more to know if you can bully someone who is gay. Every bully and every schoolchild will know you attends this school. Multiplying massively the possible bullies they may have to deal without outside. school

Actually those calls get made everyday by Teachers
The school system is not equal the Idea that each student gets the same is Incorrect It just does not happen that way.

And I doubt it is about Bullying it is about Suicide prevention if you actually read the quotes. They are not talking the kid that is HANDLING the situation they are talking the kid that is not handling the situation. Thus you arguments are irrelevant they will not be in the workforce if they kill them self.

veya_victaous wrote:Actually those calls get made everyday by Teachers
The school system is not equal the Idea that each student gets the same is Incorrect It just does not happen that way.

And I doubt it is about Bullying it is about Suicide prevention if you actually read the quotes. They are not talking the kid that is HANDLING the situation they are talking the kid that is not handling the situation. Thus you arguments are irrelevant they will not be in the workforce if they kill them self.  

Sorry but to base a view on a failing system, to then have another failing on top of this, is not an argument at all. It is baseless. You ignore the core problems again, the system is unequal, you then should address this, not make it even worse.

Sorry but are you going to set up now countless schools based off people committing suicide due to bullying based on the group they belong to? So all white schools, all Black schools, all Asian schools, based off where children have committed suicide over racism?

Y0u do realise this school would have done bugger all to prevent the child used as a reason in the article on suicide poorly claiming it would have saved her life?  How impossible that would have been? As the school by wishing to join, exposes to her parents she i wanted to go to an LGBT school. She is as less likely to do that as she on coming out to her parents. When, as this reason to why she committed suicide was fear of her parents knowing she was gay? That I find appalling from the campaigners to use that, as it was the fear of having to tell her parents that drove her to this. Where LGBT children should have access to help within school and other services, helplines etc.

Again children with disabilities face bullying as do countless groups and it is those trying to fight to have children with disabilities in all schools where they are treated normally. All groups suffer bullying and also help and guidance to deal with. Many kids from different groups have many of these problems. They also provide more help and somewhere confidential, that can help them come out and tell their families. A LGBT school is not going to achieve that, being as joining an LGBT school would automatically mean her parents would then know.

THEN Pay for it
I work in Public Education Sector I know the reality is these solutions are the best we can hope for with out a MASSIVE increase in funding.. which is not going to happen

it is not meant o help everyone Just 40 kids your just trying to save 40 pout of how many million students in the UK it doesn't even represent 1% of LGBT students

That's why it is a media beat up as it DOESN'T imply ANY of the "Lets take it our of context and suggest they are segregating all Gay kids" rubbish your saying.

veya_victaous wrote:THEN Pay for it
I work in Public Education Sector I know the reality is these solutions are the best we can hope for with out a MASSIVE increase in funding.. which is not going to happen

it is not meant o help everyone Just 40 kids your just trying to save 40 pout of how many million students in the UK it doesn't even represent 1% of LGBT students

That's why it is a media beat up as it DOESN'T imply ANY of the "Lets take it our of context and suggest they are segregating all Gay kids" rubbish your saying.

No they are not, they are saying one group can have a place to have undivided attention given to them and countless other kids in others groups do not. Again more needs to be done in schools, which having LGBT people there, like having ethnic groups there, like having people with disabilities there brings about better integration. This normalizes who they are and by segregating them, they would be otherwise seen as abnormal. Things have greatly improved for many LGBT people in this country over the last few decades, the young being the least prejudice as a group because of kids growing up together in schools, able to dispels prejudice views held. Yeah I m sure there are many kids out there that want help like many do, this is not a Free school either and costs money, where again you have to be equal to all children, not place some above others because of a group that defines who they are which is used against them in bullying.

“But we have an education system that sets up 5%-10% of pupils to fail through fear and structure, because it routinely fails to recognise and incorporate the needs of young people struggling with their identities. We can either hope every school is going to be inclusive, or we can recognise we are not there yet and so, for the moment, we need more specialised schools,” she added.

Seems to be exactly what I said, We can recognize they are NOT yet (and from the inside I can tell you like everything it is FUNDING) So if we want these Individuals to NOT KILL THEMSELVES we need to offer them an alternative.

veya_victaous wrote:

“But we have an education system that sets up 5%-10% of pupils to fail through fear and structure, because it routinely fails to recognise and incorporate the needs of young people struggling with their identities. We can either hope every school is going to be inclusive, or we can recognise we are not there yet and so, for the moment, we need more specialised schools,” she added.

Seems to be exactly what I said, We can recognize they are NOT yet (and from the inside I can tell you like everything it is FUNDING) So if we want these Individuals to NOT KILL THEMSELVES we need to offer them an alternative.

Absurd reasoning again. We are not there yet dealing with racism, xenophobia, sexism, misogyny, discrimination against disabilities etc, the list is endless. All of which suffer like the LGBT community, you though wish to make exceptions for the LGBT because we are not there yet. Basically creating inequality, because there is no special schools set up where the main purpose is to help people of a bullied group suffering bullying to the point their education is failing. What then next, those bullied for being overweight? Bulled for having a large nose? The purpose is be on helping any bullied child who is failing education.

Again using the argument on suicide is disingenuous to to say the least when the two samples they used would never have been prevented by such a school and its purpose for being created this school is to advantage 40 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students who are struggling in mainstream education. That is favoritism and discrimination, where if you are going to create a school to help those struggling to maintain education, should not be base on just one group but all children who suffer. If this is to save lives, what of all the other groups I mentioned that suffer bullying to the point of suicide? Do they then have lesser rights than now some LGBT children struggling at school, as they also do? The use of claiming this will prevent suicide is a sham and appalling to even claim. Where those who commit suicide is based around non-acceptance or bullying in the main. The former as seen would do little if there was such a school, or be no different to existing organizations that can help, The later bullying as explain they are now more susceptible to being bullied by far more bullies from all the schools in the area.

there is other Special needs classes Those kids when Identified also get the special treatment.
It would wonderful if we could reduce class sizes so that one teacher only had 10 students for everyone but .... the budget doesn't allow it.

Going back to another thread About blocking encryption, I believe you could stop more home grown terrorist putting that money into giving more children better eduction than wasting time trying to block something that they might never use and there is plenty of alternatives to.

So now you deflect on to terrorism and claim more clauses where again, the school was set up based on bullying and educational needs.

No worries Veya, I already knew you really had no valid reason to back such a view of such a school where it will have more adverse affects than would a LGBT child in any other school.

You seem to think there is infinite money
Convince Victor to pay an extra 10% tax to cover eduction....

Until then your ideas are nice and all... but completely unimplementable

A Solution that requires infinite resources is no solution at all

Brasidas wrote:So now you deflect on to terrorism and claim more clauses where again, the school was set up based on bullying and educational needs.

No worries Veya, I already knew you really had no valid reason to back such a view of such a school where it will have more adverse affects than would a LGBT child in any other school.

Umm no that is what the newspaper has reduced what is probably a 50 page plus "Outline of educational business case".. if it is anything like here you have to give how this will effect every demographic let alone the all the costings and benefits, Often yes You are presenting something to a minister and ultimately asking them to back spending money on this rather than something else.

So Where I would get some of extra funding from is That anti encryption program, waste of money better spent Trying to implement the ideals you are exposing on this thread than there.

Whoop de do on the funding part, which has no bearing on why this kind of school that positively discriminates is wrong. Which as seen desires to safeguard on some who get bullied by taking them away from issues they need to learn how to deal with in life . It is a poor way to attempt to resolve issues by a temporary fix. So this money could be better spend on all people who suffer from bullying and who need educational needs.
Again equality is the key here and helping all who need help.

As I've said elsewhere on this topic; I think it's a terrible idea and LBGT students should feel free to be themselves whatever building they're in.

A school specifically designed just for them?
Bad idea.

I dont quite know what to think about this...

IF and that is a BIG IF...it is for lbgt kids thought to be "at risk" of self harming and who would perhaps benefit from a "secure" environment then maybe...but I will take some convincing

if its just another nutcase establishment idea then it wants binning as fast as possible.

AS to the issue of bullying......FGS mke it SIMPLE....a child who is bullied should have respite via the courts in the personal pockets of the staff involved. In other words if the school doesnt act...correctly ...the staff can be personally (not the EA..... the staff...) sued.

how often do we hear of kids being bullied and staff failing to act or failing to act strongly enough?
how often do the POLICE fail bullied kids....make bullying a CRIMINAL offense....

my step son flattened the class bully...after months of provocation...(using skills I taught him )

guess who was "suspended"

YUP my stepson

however THAT did NOT last long...after I had "words" with the head teacher...and threatened to expose what was going on .......

(the bully's mother was a lesbian "friend" of the headmistress)(you couldnt make it up rofl)

strangely enough a few years later the little shit of a bully was jailed for rape.....hmmmmmmm

Its about time that not only were politicians cleaned up methinks but a whole segment of society.....

Brasidas wrote:Whoop de do on the funding part, which has no bearing on why this kind of school that positively discriminates is wrong. Which as seen desires to safeguard on some who get bullied by taking them away from issues they need to learn how to deal with in life . It is a poor way to attempt to resolve issues by a temporary fix. So this money could be better spend on all people who suffer from bullying and who need educational needs.
Again equality is the key here and helping all who need help.

So you are a commie or an idiot "Funding is Nothing" MONEY IS EVERYTHING Get Something done without money

LIKE it or not that is Reality, not in the magic ideal world

darknessss wrote:I dont quite know what to think about this...

IF and that is a BIG IF...it is for lbgt kids thought to be "at risk" of self harming and who would perhaps benefit from a "secure" environment then maybe...but I will take some convincing

if its just another nutcase establishment idea then it wants binning as fast as possible.

AS to the issue of bullying......FGS mke it SIMPLE....a child who is bullied should have respite via the courts in the personal pockets of the staff involved. In other words if the school doesnt act...correctly ...the staff can be personally (not the EA..... the staff...) sued.

how often do we hear of kids being bullied and staff failing to act or failing to act strongly enough?
how often do the POLICE fail bullied kids....make bullying a CRIMINAL offense....

my step son flattened the class bully...after months of provocation...(using skills I taught him   )

guess who was "suspended"

YUP my stepson

however THAT did NOT last long...after I had "words" with the head teacher...and threatened to expose what was going on .......

(the bully's mother was a lesbian "friend" of the headmistress)(you couldnt make it up rofl)

strangely enough a few years later the little shit of a bully was jailed for rape.....hmmmmmmm

Its about time that not only were politicians cleaned up methinks but a whole segment of society.....

Schools are too soft on most things now Vic.
Bullying should be tackled far more harshly imo

veya_victaous wrote:

Brasidas wrote:Whoop de do on the funding part, which has no bearing on why this kind of school that positively discriminates is wrong. Which as seen desires to safeguard on some who get bullied by taking them away from issues they need to learn how to deal with in life . It is a poor way to attempt to resolve issues by a temporary fix. So this money could be better spend on all people who suffer from bullying and who need educational needs.
Again equality is the key here and helping all who need help.

So you are a commie or an idiot "Funding is Nothing"  MONEY IS EVERYTHING  Get Something done without money

LIKE it or not that is Reality, not in the magic ideal world

Well the only poster here backing inequality in regards to a segregated school is yourself. So based on levels of idoocy, your IQ level must be in the minus. Even more so when you come out with that kind of. accusations above

"negative I.Q." ?!?

THAT'S a bit harsh..


THAT'S entering the realm of the likes of Scrat and the Smelly Bum bandit.

Lone Wolf wrote:

"negative I.Q."  ?!?

THAT'S a bit harsh..


THAT'S entering the realm of the likes of Scrat and the Smelly Bum bandit.

Hiya Bee





Is only banter and banter in kind made from Veya.

I reckon that "Scrat, Fuzzy Zack and the Smelly Bum Bandits" would be a good name for an indie' rockabilly band...


                         

Brasidas wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Brasidas wrote:Whoop de do on the funding part, which has no bearing on why this kind of school that positively discriminates is wrong. Which as seen desires to safeguard on some who get bullied by taking them away from issues they need to learn how to deal with in life . It is a poor way to attempt to resolve issues by a temporary fix. So this money could be better spend on all people who suffer from bullying and who need educational needs.
Again equality is the key here and helping all who need help.

So you are a commie or an idiot "Funding is Nothing"  MONEY IS EVERYTHING  Get Something done without money

LIKE it or not that is Reality, not in the magic ideal world

Well the only poster here backing inequality in regards to a segregated school is yourself. So based on levels of idoocy, your IQ level must be in the minus. Even more so when you come out with that kind of. accusations above

Actually I gave explanation as to why this is the best option in the real world where this is not infinite funding.

Although all the Projects I am involved with are Technology Centred, I still work in Education and can tell you or anyone else right now, that education is more limited by funding than anything else. there are heaps of improvements that 'the system' knows will work but there simply isn't the money to implement them. thus you end up with things like this where resources can be targeted to those most in need.

The Idea of Equality in education spending is simply a myth, 'special needs' students simply cost at least 3 times as much to educate. Here there was some debate about public versus private school funding and the idea is often put forward that they should just give the same amount per student. In reality that doesn't work. Private schools will simply not accept any students that cost more than that to educate and the Public system (as it has to accept everyone) will end up having a lot of high cost students. Because the media etc on focus on the high cost/ high visibility students they end up having there education costs meet, which leaves less funds for the 'average student'.

I'm not saying I think this is good this is just the way it is.