Time to Stop the Charade

Let Us Rejoice
        
For the Souls we send to the Darklord
        


I know I spend All my time trying to get Christians into hell  

Never ceases to amaze me how fundamentally threatened people can become by a simple lack of belief. Interesting side-note -- it's hard to tell whether the guy posting this video (and others) is a militant anti-atheism crusader or a "militant atheist":

I don't know why people dislike agnostics, since that's the most legitimate position.
There is not enough information, so you can’t truly know, Agnostics are just admitting that we just don't know(so why hate each other over it?).

I think in the Picture Ben posted the Agnostic and the Atheist are mixed up.
Atheist just say there is nothing and ignore all spiritual possibilities.
But there is Infinitely more options than God or Nothing.

Just because the Biblical God can be proved false doesn't mean some other god or gods or god-like concept might not exist.

Something to ask Atheists is if they believe in Fate? Because that alone is belief in a spiritual force the contradicts Atheists claims of Nothingness

Sometimes I think Atheists just aren't creative enough

Well ... I think that all the concepts of god or gods that have been presented in established religions can be confidently debunked. So that leaves us with abstractions, like a god that didn't create everything, or that created everything in a manner identical to what we know happened, or a god or gods that don't act in the fundamental ways that religions tell us it/they do -- no interference with human lives, etc.

As you begin to define god(s) as something other than what is described in religions, you move so far from those descriptions, it's debatable as to whether you're really still talking about god(s).

So I think the rational position is one of dubiousness about the existence of god(s) rather than certainty either way. There is a chance that god(s) could exist, but it's so small that it's probably safe to ignore. I'm not afraid that someone's going to come revoke my atheist card if I say, "I don't know for certain that gods don't exist, but I don't think so and I'm going to live as though the answer is no."

The criticism I have (and that I think is reflected in the picture) of agnostics is that they can so often come off as trying to please both sides by sitting on the fence. If you truly think it could be one or the other, that's fine of course, but I really doubt that there are many people out there who think there's anything like a 50/50 probability. I think that in practice, the majority of agnostics are either religious people who haven't yet been able to really come to terms with their lack of belief, or atheists trying to deflect hate/discrimination/demonization/etc. Just my opinion.

Oh, and I wouldn't say "nothingness." That sounds so hopeless and futile.

I'd say "Nothing but us." That's something I find incredibly meaningful and empowering.

Ben_Reilly wrote:
The criticism I have (and that I think is reflected in the picture) of agnostics is that they can so often come off as trying to please both sides by sitting on the fence. .

At least I dont have to worry about that since I am trying to offend everyside  

the Oldest Gods are nothing like the ones we have now, they didn't give a shit they a literally explainations for forces of nature. so ignore all you want they cared as much about us as we do about the Ants in the yard.

"Nothing but Us" but we have been making gods since time began, so we wouldn't be alone  And I truely beleive we could make a god and heaven that is real... some will call it 'skynet' and 'the matrix' but if done *correctly* they become God and Heaven for all intents and purposes.

On a Personal level, I cannot deny the possiblity of something because I still 'knock on wood' and touch my hereldric ring for luck, So as logical as I am, I still obviously have some belief that something can can influnce outcomes where there is an element of chance. Plus drop Acid and realise reality as you define it is but a state of mind, it is too easily influenced by outside forces.

Bloody Christian America
they stiffle fun debate. their god is wrong to easy to prove so no fun  

"but I really doubt that there are many people out there who think there's anything like a 50/50 probability"
I agree, but I am trying to open a new line of thought. not 50/50 anything, but 0.00001% possibility for each of the billions of possibilites.
I think Pagans were once certain they KNEW the truth then the Christians KNEW it. now Science Knows it... but sciences saving grace is the fact it admits to know but a fraction of all truthes.


@ben (or anyone that wants join in  )
did you ever play Final Fantasy 7?
what about the ideas like the stream of life, obviously not the physical manifestation but the symbolic relationship that has to fate and time?
Since the existance of time is only debatable in quatum physics terms we just accept its existance
So then does Fate exist? for those 2 things alone allow for countless spiritual possibilites..... are we like fish in the stream with the ability to move and swin against the flow(fate) or are we like fallen leaves caught in a current where our destiny is beyond our control?

veya_victaous wrote:the Oldest Gods are nothing like the ones we have now, they didn't give a shit they a literally explainations for forces of nature. so ignore all you want they cared as much about us as we do about the Ants in the yard.

But now we know they weren't real, because we can explain things like storms, earthquakes and fertility :D 

"Nothing but Us" but we have been making gods since time began, so we wouldn't be alone  And I truely beleive we could make a god and heaven that is real... some will call it 'skynet' and 'the matrix' but if done *correctly* they become God and Heaven for all intents and purposes.

Imaginary buddies are no fun. Give me real people, preferably interesting ones. And yeah, we could all go live forever in the Singularity some day, but there wouldn't be anything supernatural about it, and I think that's where we get tripped up, on definitions -- to me, to talk about gods is immediately to talk about something outside science and observable reality. Things we can prove aren't outside science; if God popped by to say "Howdy" or "G'Day" or something, preferably in a public place in front of a large group of people and some handy video cameras, God would be part of science at that point.

On a Personal level, I cannot deny the possiblity of something because I still 'knock on wood' and touch my hereldric ring for luck, So as logical as I am, I still obviously have some belief that something can can influnce outcomes where there is an element of chance. Plus drop Acid and realise reality as you define it is but a state of mind, it is too easily influenced by outside forces.

Well, there's the question, though -- your irrational mind might believe those things work even as your rational mind knows they likely don't -- it's really hard not to believe some things we really want to believe, as in my belief that I'm a reasonably good-looking guy, even in the face of contrary evidence. And logically, we can say whether something is real or only in a person's mind. If a schizophrenic guy thinks he's Napoleon, the rest of us can confidently contradict him.

You posted as I posted. Oh well, gotta go work out, but I'll try to briefly address what you said:

Stuff like the "stream of life," I think, are useful ways to shorthand what we experience -- which is all we really do; I could tell you about my day but you're never going to get it in 3D with SurroundSound. Sort of like how we talk about "fate." For example, we find ourselves in a happy situation, and we ascribe it to "fate" where we really mean that we've landed in a good place. I don't believe in fate as a literal thing, no, but I'll talk about it as a way of conveying my satisfaction with a situation I find myself in.

(In other words -- I believe I could choose to, say, end my life right now and nothing would be able to stop me, which would be pretty solid proof that I'm not "intended" for any purpose beyond this evening. Or I could choose to proceed onward in my awesomeness and leave a trail of awesome in my wake, which would also be the product of nothing but my own choice, and not my fate.)

I think we are limited in our ability to control how our lives turn out, but that it's not the same as fate. I will quite likely never set foot in North Korea, even if I made that my lifelong goal, because of circumstances I can't control. But I am, for example, slowly becoming bilingual, based on a decision I made and the fact that circumstances like my finances, time commitment and intelligence didn't hold me back.

And why do ants all work together? do they have a god, they seem to, they are much better organised than us, even if they still have a monarchy.
if it is biological desire why don't they all try and become Queen or at least more of them attempt to breed? it's not like wolves where the breeders are the strongest and most capable of survival, the queen is a fat lump yet Savage Warriors will literally turn themsleves to Honey Pots on her command  
Is the Ant Queen a god(dess)? her followers are even more devout than the most Fundementally religious Human.

"we can explain things like storms, earthquakes and fertility"
maybe... our expalinations for earthquakes relies on tectonic plates, which is still unproven. (personally I think they are right)
and just because I know a mechanics tools exist and what they, are does that mean the mechanic doesn't? remember these gods just did their thing and that thing is still being done, we know what is happening and the forces that cause it, but for Why it does it our answer is just 'because' or the chaos of chance.


"wouldn't be anything supernatural about it,'
same with every other religion  
In the novel I'm reading (king Arthur trilogy by Bernard Cornwell) Merlin says some thing relevant to this.
"just because there is trickery does that mean that there is no magic?"

the "stream of life," in Final Fantasy 7 (if you really pay attention) is less about personal Fate and more about intertwining fates (Cloud + Areis and Tifa + Barret in the game). as an example You made the decison to become Bilingual which was fate but not for how it effects your life (its a skill and will bring benifits) but because one day in the future someone will say something in that language, maybe they will ask a question, at that is where you will affect their fate. so many twists of fate occur so often between so many lives that they drag us all forward like the current of a stream.
Like would a schizophrenic guy thinks he's Napoleon, if Napoleon was killed in his first battle? maybe great men like Naploeon are great because of the extent that affect the fate of others. Which brings us back to the Ants with the Queen that controls all their fates (the fact they have been living successfully since long before the dinosaurs give me reason to believe they are on the rigth track).

Enjoy your work out (with Spanish)

Loved the video! I was happy to see I understand a lot of it.

Now if it only had some anthropomorphized ants

See exactly like Minneapolis, narrator John Kieran said so all the way back in 1949

"we can say whether something is real or only in a person's mind"
Can we? the example you give Ok we can, but what about illusionists? even though they say it is an illusion in their name how many people can actually say where the real and illusion meet? some are easy but some like that Dynamo guy from the UK can easily make you question what is real.

 

Just watched a movie that made me want to revisit this topic. But first -- about queen ants.

My last reply was rather flippant, but to go into it a bit more, "queen ant" isn't a very good name. The only role of a queen ant is to reproduce; she has no authority over the colony. You sort of attributed something like human ambition to ants (which was why I made that comment) but even if ants had human ambition, it's unlikely they'd prefer to be stuck in an anthill, pushing out larvae for the rest of their lives.

So, back to the movie. I just watched a movie based on a true story about a girl who was basically tortured to death back in the 1960s. At the conclusion, she (posthumously; it's a movie after all) mentions that her pastor used to say that things happen according to God's plan, and that she was still trying to figure out what that plan was.

That's my big problem with the notions of God or fate -- they allow us to attribute horrible things to something other than those truly responsible. This girl died after months of horror because of the actions of the monster in whose care she was left, but people are so apt to just say that that's how God or fate wanted it, and we all know that's bullshit; that any force of good or whatever would not want decent children to suffer and die for no apparent reason. If you leave God/fate out of the equation, the situation is easily understood -- she died because she was left in the care of a madwoman.

On the flip side of the coin, God/fate also deprives us of credit for the things we do right. A surgeon who performs a life-saving procedure isn't brilliant and talented; he/she merely was the instrument of some unseen, unproven supernatural force.

I simply say, fuck that. Let people take full credit for their own awesomeness and full blame for their depravity.

People will make excuses. that God plan shit would not fly here so People Blame ADHD or some minor mental condition. People will always make excuses.
'excuses are like belly buttons everyones got one and they're good for nothing'

"because of the actions of the monster" and how did the Monster come to exist? the majority of Child Abusers where abused themselves as children. So there is a interconntected fate here but that doesn't mean we cant strive to make it better.

I think there is a fundmental difference in the way we perceive Fate. you see it is a predefined course of events, unalterable moving towards and outcome. I see it as a set of consequences for previous actions beyond the control (or visibilty) of ourselves. Mine is more like the butterfly effect, but in the middle, we know the butterfly has beat it wings so now we wait for the hurricane.

in the case above, they way you view it their is no way the girl could have escaped her terrible destiny and people using that as an excuse for societies failure to protect her.
I would say the abuse was her fate because society failed to prevent the Monster, it is not an excuse but a reproof of soceity for the failures of the passed abuse that creatred todays abusers. it was Fate because the circumstances existed beyond immediate control, we can prevent that fate for others in the future by learning.
I guess it depends if Fate is one road or a collection of paths as we progress the entry of some paths become unavailable. Im sure if you look at the above case you will find multipule points where the circumstances would have changed 'if only' something did or didn't happen and some of those points could have been generations ago.

And their own awesomeness.....  
majority of awesome ones are still the product of their ancestors and circumstances

I agree with giving credit where credit is due but we are more than the sum of oursleves, My Parents deserve some credit for what ever I achieve in my life because I am still a product of their raising.
Even if the Parents are Asses they we still have a formulative affect on ourselves (it may not be positive)

I would not be who I am today if it wasn't for the circumstances of the past. The Surgeon would not be the surgeon with out their training, and they couldn't complete their training without being intelligent/dedicated. "merely was the instrument" is like saying a F1 is merely are car cause Fate/God didn't have that many they could actually choose from. their Fate is not their actions but their capacity and their decision to be a surgeon and not a lawyer. Again this comes back to the fundamental difference in our defintions. When the surgeon decided to learn(butterfly beats its wings) that was when it became their fate to save the life(the hurricane).

If we look at the fate of the life saved, they took whatever paths to get themselves on to a dead end road.... until the surgeon extended it.