Sinking of battleship Royal Oak 75 years ago remembered in Orkney

Events marking the sinking of a battleship at Scapa Flow in Orkney during World War Two are getting under way.

The Royal Oak was torpedoed by a German U-boat, in 1939.

Most of the 1,200 crew were asleep below deck, and more than 800 - including many boy sailors - died.

Royal Navy divers have successfully replaced the White Ensign on HMS Royal Oak

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-29538313

One of the blackest nights in the history of the Royal Navy when HMS Royal Oak was sunk in Scapa Flow. Many of those who lost their lives were just young schoolboys serving on her.

No longer would young lads serve on British warships in a time of war after this.

I was in Stromness many years ago when a remembrance event was taking place.

Absolutely heartbreaking.

Let Us Never Forget Them

RIP x

Yes heartbreaking.

But it sure woke the British up that a sub could make it into Scapa Flow so easily.

It sure woke the Yanks up that the Japs could bomb Pearl Harbour with out much oposition!

nicko wrote:It sure woke the Yanks up that the Japs could bomb Pearl Harbour with out much oposition!

Absolutely, but as I've said elsewhere, that was a plan that Roosevelt and Churchill cooked up to get around the Neutrality Act in this country, and get us into Europe's war...so we could save London from speaking German ever after.

As the Battle of Midway proved, barely 6-months later, the Japs couldn't even put one aircraft carrier on the bottom (Yorktown was scuttled by a US sub), while we sank four of theirs.

Who's the big dog?

Who was it that rescued an Enigma machine from a german sub so we were able to decode their messages? il'l give you a clue, it wasn't the good old American navy allthough hollywood made out it was!. By the way Erol Flynn didn't win the war in Burma either.

nicko wrote:Who was it that rescued an Enigma machine from a german sub so we were able to decode their messages?   il'l give you a clue, it wasn't the good old American navy allthough hollywood made out it was!.  By the way Erol Flynn didn't win the war in Burma either.

You're right Nicko. Error Flynn was an Australian and may have been famous for one 'thing' (cough cough) but he never won the war in Burma. That was William Holden who did that.

nicko wrote:Who was it that rescued an Enigma machine from a german sub so we were able to decode their messages?   il'l give you a clue, it wasn't the good old American navy allthough hollywood made out it was!.  By the way Erol Flynn didn't win the war in Burma either.

Oh, I wouldn't be thumping my chest too hard over the cracking of the Enigma, not if you know about the Polish researchers whose groundwork was forgotten. Not to mention what the British government would later do to Turing ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:

nicko wrote:Who was it that rescued an Enigma machine from a german sub so we were able to decode their messages?   il'l give you a clue, it wasn't the good old American navy allthough hollywood made out it was!.  By the way Erol Flynn didn't win the war in Burma either.

Oh, I wouldn't be thumping my chest too hard over the cracking of the Enigma, not if you know about the Polish researchers whose groundwork was forgotten. Not to mention what the British government would later do to Turing ...

Er I think you will find Ben it was the British that deciphered the enigma machines, which deserves the highest praise, of which they were still problems with or different variant machines that needed constant work to decipher. The Poles were an asset as they provided the first working example, but by the end of the war there were two variant machines that proved very difficult to decipher, the T52d and SZ42, luckily they were in very small numbers. You cannot take away what an achievement it was to capture one from a UBoat, a hugely dangerous task, which at this point the Navy codes had not been cracked, or the whole team that broke the codes, based on the poor actions of the British Government over Turning, as you are basically diminishing their achievement.

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:It sure woke the Yanks up that the Japs could bomb Pearl Harbour with out much oposition!

Absolutely, but as I've said elsewhere, that was a plan that Roosevelt and Churchill cooked up to get around the Neutrality Act in this country, and get us into Europe's war...so we could save London from speaking German ever after.

As the Battle of Midway proved, barely 6-months later, the Japs couldn't even put one aircraft carrier on the bottom (Yorktown was scuttled by a US sub), while we sank four of theirs.

Who's the big dog?

There was no plan as you well know and am not going down this make believe conspiracy you believe in again.
Again before Pearl Harbour, Aircraft carriers were not capital ships.

Brasidas wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Absolutely, but as I've said elsewhere, that was a plan that Roosevelt and Churchill cooked up to get around the Neutrality Act in this country, and get us into Europe's war...so we could save London from speaking German ever after.

As the Battle of Midway proved, barely 6-months later, the Japs couldn't even put one aircraft carrier on the bottom (Yorktown was scuttled by a US sub), while we sank four of theirs.

Who's the big dog?

There was no plan as you well know and am not going down this make believe conspiracy you believe in again.
Again before Pearl Harbour, Aircraft carriers were not capital ships.

A factoid you just made up in your own humble imagination. Aircraft carriers had been the chief capital ship ever since naval tactics had been twisted around as a result of the Battle of Taranto.

Wiki wrote:The Royal Navy launched the first all-aircraft ship-to-ship naval attack in history, flying a small number of obsolescent biplane torpedo bombers from the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious (R87) in the Mediterranean Sea. The attack struck the battle fleet of the Regia Marina at anchor in the harbour of Taranto using aerial torpedoes despite the shallow depth of the water in the harbour. The devastation wrought by the British carrier-launched aircraft on the large Italian warships was the beginning of the rise of the power of naval aviation, over the big guns of battleships. According to Admiral Cunningham, "Taranto, and the night of November 11–12, 1940, should be remembered for ever as having shown once and for all that in the Fleet Air Arm the Navy has its most devastating weapon."

That battle plan sound familiar? It should...it was the exact same plan followed by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor. And we knew about it even before the Japanese, cause the British told us about it. Surprise...they were our allies. That kind of news doesn't linger about in times of war. The day after Taranto nations were laying keels for aircraft carriers as capital ships. The US laid down plans to build some 20 Essex-class carriers even before Pearl.

The aircraft carrier was certainly the main capital ship in every navy in the world after Taranto, and still is. The US Pacific carrier fleet was the one naval element that was uniquely missing from Pearl Harbor on the weekend of December 7, 1941 attack. Somebody knew full well that attack was coming. Add to that the British had broken the Japanese code and intercepted a message that an attack on Pearl was coming, and warned the Americans about it, and the evidence is overwhelming.

Brasidas wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

nicko wrote:Who was it that rescued an Enigma machine from a german sub so we were able to decode their messages?   il'l give you a clue, it wasn't the good old American navy allthough hollywood made out it was!.  By the way Erol Flynn didn't win the war in Burma either.

Oh, I wouldn't be thumping my chest too hard over the cracking of the Enigma, not if you know about the Polish researchers whose groundwork was forgotten. Not to mention what the British government would later do to Turing ...

Er I think you will find Ben it was the British that deciphered the enigma machines, which deserves the highest praise, of which they were still problems with or different variant machines that needed constant work to decipher. The Poles were an asset as they provided the first working example, but by the end of the war there were two variant machines that proved very difficult to decipher, the T52d and SZ42, luckily they were in very small numbers. You cannot take away what an achievement it was to capture one from a UBoat, a hugely dangerous task, which at this point the Navy codes had not been cracked, or the whole team that broke the codes, based on the poor actions of the British Government over Turning, as you are basically diminishing their achievement.

Nah, just putting into context. Turing stood on the Poles' shoulders when it came to cracking the Enigma, and if you're going to tout Turing's story as an example of British Greatness as nicko did, you certainly can't leave out the fact that just a few years after he helped save his country, his government force-injected him with estrogen for the crime of being gay ...

Sorry if that stirs up any bullshit tribalistic animosity -- if it helps, think about all the Islamic wedding parties the U.S. has put a damper on with flying death robots.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


Er I think you will find Ben it was the British that deciphered the enigma machines, which deserves the highest praise, of which they were still problems with or different variant machines that needed constant work to decipher. The Poles were an asset as they provided the first working example, but by the end of the war there were two variant machines that proved very difficult to decipher, the T52d and SZ42, luckily they were in very small numbers. You cannot take away what an achievement it was to capture one from a UBoat, a hugely dangerous task, which at this point the Navy codes had not been cracked, or the whole team that broke the codes, based on the poor actions of the British Government over Turning, as you are basically diminishing their achievement.

Nah, just putting into context. Turing stood on the Poles' shoulders when it came to cracking the Enigma, and if you're going to tout Turing's story as an example of British Greatness as nicko did, you certainly can't leave out the fact that just a few years after he helped save his country, his government force-injected him with estrogen for the crime of being gay ...

Sorry if that stirs up any bullshit tribalistic animosity -- if it helps, think about all the Islamic wedding parties the U.S. has put a damper on with flying death robots.

You are not placing this into context because now you are just as much making those who helped achieve this great breakthrough as redundant, which I find poor to be honest over some silly them and us attitude between the US and Britain, where without each other or others like the Russians, none could have won. Again you are poorly trying to down play an achievement based on how he was later poorly treated, that is absurd, to thus also dish him in fact for his accomplishments.
So I think you are going up the wrong garden path, one of which would no doubt insult those and the relatives involved in this historic event.
The point Nicko made was in fact an annoyance on many Brits parts, where the US, with again the film enigma, portray and very poor view as if thy accomplished the whole war on their own, where from the fall of France until June 1941, Britain was very much fighting on her own. I do not discount the great achievements of the American sin the war, show a little respect to others, as they were all allies.

Original Quill wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


There was no plan as you well know and am not going down this make believe conspiracy you believe in again.
Again before Pearl Harbour, Aircraft carriers were not capital ships.

A factoid you just made up in your own humble imagination.  Aircraft carriers had been the chief capital ship ever since naval tactics had been twisted around as a result of the Battle of Taranto.

Wiki wrote:The Royal Navy launched the first all-aircraft ship-to-ship naval attack in history, flying a small number of obsolescent biplane torpedo bombers from the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious (R87) in the Mediterranean Sea. The attack struck the battle fleet of the Regia Marina at anchor in the harbour of Taranto using aerial torpedoes despite the shallow depth of the water in the harbour. The devastation wrought by the British carrier-launched aircraft on the large Italian warships was the beginning of the rise of the power of naval aviation, over the big guns of battleships. According to Admiral Cunningham, "Taranto, and the night of November 11–12, 1940, should be remembered for ever as having shown once and for all that in the Fleet Air Arm the Navy has its most devastating weapon."

That battle plan sound familiar?  It should...it was the exact same plan followed by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.  And we knew about it even before the Japanese, cause the British told us about it.  Surprise...they were our allies.  That kind of news doesn't linger about in times of war.  The day after Taranto nations were laying keels for aircraft carriers as capital ships.  The US laid down plans to build some 20 Essex-class carriers even before Pearl.

The aircraft carrier was certainly the main capital ship in every navy in the world after Taranto, and still is.  The US Pacific carrier fleet was the one naval element that was uniquely missing from Pearl Harbor on the weekend of December 7, 1941 attack.  Somebody knew full well that attack was coming.  Add to that the British had broken the Japanese code and intercepted a message that an attack on Pearl was coming, and warned the Americans about it, and the evidence is overwhelming.

Oh dear you are still coming out with the same old rubbish, again I have debated this time and again and your knowledge here was poor to the point you made two embarrassing points, one that wildcat fighters could fly and reach Midway from either the US or Pearl harbour, to thinking that Aircraft Carriers were capital ships before the attack on Pearl harbour. Unless you want to change the official stand point of the US navy, you have no leg to stand on and never did in this debate. All your vies are based off hindsight dreaming up some absurd conspiracy which ignores all the facts.


It took until late 1942 before aircraft carriers were universally considered capital ships. The U.S. Navy was forced to rely primarily on their aircraft carriers after the attack on Pearl Harbor sank or damaged eight of their Pacific Fleet battleships.

You have posted the same garbage before, would you like me to link the previous thread to save me time of once again showing how your conspiracy theory is a load of crap?

Come on didge, you must know Erol Flynn won the war in Burma.

nicko wrote: Come on didge, you must know Erol Flynn won the war in Burma.

lol that is Hollywood for you Nicko.

I'm not denying Turing's accomplishment -- he made the breakthrough, but could he have done it without the work of the Polish cryptographers who'd already laid a lot of the groundwork he started on? Maybe he could have, but that's no reason not to recognize the accomplishments of the Polish -- and they certainly deserve recognition for the danger they put themselves into besides their brilliance.

I only said I wouldn't tout him as an example of how great the UK is in light of how the UK treated him. Make sense? Of course it does. Your country turned one of its heroes into a lab rat out of prejudice. No way to spin that that makes it better.

As far as bullshit tribalistic animosity, which I already assured you this isn't about, I will freely admit the two biggest things that ended the war were two of the scariest things the world has ever seen (Josef Stalin and atomic bombs). The U.S. had a role to play, but I couldn't pick Errol Flynn out of a line-up -- just looked him up to see he died 15 years before I was born. And he was Australian, so ...

Sorry Ben, it is a simplistic approach to view those two aspects for the war ending. For example and this is valid for the input of America, as Russia was on the brink in 1942, which without help from America and British conveys, would have lost. America gave hundreds of thousands of lorries, which actually dwarfed any production by the Russians themselves, which were central to fast movement on the battlefield and to large encirclement battles, all of which without, Russia would not have been able to accomplish. This is just one of many things both Britain and America sent to aid Russia, many tanks and planes were sent, when they were in short supply, both British and American regiments of tanks fought at Kursk. Yes their production in tanks and aircraft was amazing, but fast movement relies on having many transports, of which America aided Russia greatly. Russia gave the most in sacrifice than any other allies, but they would not have achieved this without the vast materiel shipped to them. Do not get me wrong the Russians had some amazing Generals, who were first class, which helped them win also.
Nicko's points was jumped on wrongly, he is right how Hollywood does often than not portay the US as solely winning the war

I think I've maybe seen two or three of Hollywood's depictions of the war, and the only one I really remember is Saving Private Ryan. I always think of this comic when it comes to Hollywood depictions of real-life events:



As far as the major reasons the war was won, I was just trying to pick probably the biggest two -- not that I'm an expert or anything, that's just what I've read several places. I'd add to that Hitler getting in the way of his own generals ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:I think I've maybe seen two or three of Hollywood's depictions of the war, and the only one I really remember is Saving Private Ryan. I always think of this comic when it comes to Hollywood depictions of real-life events:



As far as the major reasons the war was won, I was just trying to pick probably the biggest two -- not that I'm an expert or anything, that's just what I've read several places. I'd add to that Hitler getting in the way of his own generals ...

Saving Private Ryan, is a very good film, but again, it has a dig at Monty in passing and do see your point on some of the biggest, which makes for good debates mate.

Anyway it is Friday evening, here so all the best to everyone.