covered up.

Can any tell me why,if these terrorists are so sure they are following allah's orders,they have to cover their faces? If they were so sure they were doing what Allah wanted would they not be proud to let others see their faces?

nicko wrote:Can any tell me why,if these terrorists are so sure they are following allah's orders,they have to cover their faces? If they were so sure they were doing what Allah wanted would they not be proud to let others see their faces?

I think you've answered your own question.

Aye. Klan does the same thing.

WASHINGTON (RNS) More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

Relying heavily on the Quran, the 18-page letter released Wednesday (Sept. 24) picks apart the extremist ideology of the militants who have left a wake of brutal death and destruction in their bid to establish a transnational Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.

Even translated into English, the letter will still sound alien to most Americans, said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council of American-Islamic Relations, who released it in Washington with 10 other American Muslim religious and civil rights leaders.

“The letter is written in Arabic. It is using heavy classical religious texts and classical religious scholars that ISIS has used to mobilize young people to join its forces,” said Awad, using one of the acronyms for the group. “This letter is not meant for a liberal audience.”

Even mainstream Muslims, he said, may find it difficult to understand.

Awad said its aim is to offer a comprehensive Islamic refutation, “point-by-point,” to the philosophy of the Islamic State and the violence it has perpetrated. The letter’s authors include well-known religious and scholarly figures in the Muslim world, including Sheikh Shawqi Allam, the grand mufti of Egypt, and Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein, the mufti of Jerusalem and All Palestine.

A translated 24-point summary of the letter includes the following: “It is forbidden in Islam to torture”; “It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God”; and “It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslims until he (or she) openly declares disbelief.”

This is not the first time Muslim leaders have joined to condemn the Islamic State. The chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, Aiman Mazyek, for example, last week told the nation’s Muslims that they should speak out against the “terrorist and murderers” who fight for the Islamic State and who have dragged Islam “through the mud.”

But the Muslim leaders who endorsed Wednesday’s letter called it an unprecedented refutation of the Islamic State ideology from a collaboration of religious scholars. It is addressed to the group’s self-anointed leader, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, and “the fighters and followers of the self-declared ‘Islamic State.’”

But the words “Islamic State” are in quotes, and the Muslim leaders who released the letter asked people to stop using the term, arguing that it plays into the group’s unfounded logic that it is protecting Muslim lands from non-Muslims and is resurrecting the caliphate — a state governed by a Muslim leader that once controlled vast swaths of the Middle East.

“Please stop calling them the ‘Islamic State,’ because they are not a state and they are not a religion,” said Ahmed Bedier, a Muslim and the president of United Voices of America, a nonprofit that encourages minority groups to engage in civic life.

President Obama has made a similar point, referring to the Islamic State by one of its acronyms — “the group known as ISIL” — in his speech to the United Nations earlier Wednesday. In that speech, Obama also disconnected the group from Islam.

Enumerating its atrocities — the mass rape of women, the gunning down of children, the starvation of religious minorities — Obama concluded: “No God condones this terror.”

Here is the executive summary of their letter:

1. It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry-pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.

2. It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.

3. It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.

4. It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.

5. It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

6. It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

7. It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

9. It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.

10. It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.

11. It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

12. The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

14. It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

15. It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

16. It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct
procedures that ensure justice and mercy.

17. It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.

18. It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.

19. It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God.

20. It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.

21. Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.

22. It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.

24. After the death of the Prophet, Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

Read the full letter here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/24/Muslim-scholars-islamic-state_n_5878038.html?cps=gravity

Fuzzy Zack wrote:WASHINGTON (RNS) More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

Relying heavily on the Quran, the 18-page letter released Wednesday (Sept. 24) picks apart the extremist ideology of the militants who have left a wake of brutal death and destruction in their bid to establish a transnational Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.

Even translated into English, the letter will still sound alien to most Americans, said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council of American-Islamic Relations, who released it in Washington with 10 other American Muslim religious and civil rights leaders.

“The letter is written in Arabic. It is using heavy classical religious texts and classical religious scholars that ISIS has used to mobilize young people to join its forces,” said Awad, using one of the acronyms for the group. “This letter is not meant for a liberal audience.”

Even mainstream Muslims, he said, may find it difficult to understand.

Awad said its aim is to offer a comprehensive Islamic refutation, “point-by-point,” to the philosophy of the Islamic State and the violence it has perpetrated. The letter’s authors include well-known religious and scholarly figures in the Muslim world, including Sheikh Shawqi Allam, the grand mufti of Egypt, and Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein, the mufti of Jerusalem and All Palestine.

A translated 24-point summary of the letter includes the following: “It is forbidden in Islam to torture”; “It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God”; and “It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslims until he (or she) openly declares disbelief.”

This is not the first time Muslim leaders have joined to condemn the Islamic State. The chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, Aiman Mazyek, for example, last week told the nation’s Muslims that they should speak out against the “terrorist and murderers” who fight for the Islamic State and who have dragged Islam “through the mud.”

But the Muslim leaders who endorsed Wednesday’s letter called it an unprecedented refutation of the Islamic State ideology from a collaboration of religious scholars. It is addressed to the group’s self-anointed leader, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, and “the fighters and followers of the self-declared ‘Islamic State.’”

But the words “Islamic State” are in quotes, and the Muslim leaders who released the letter asked people to stop using the term, arguing that it plays into the group’s unfounded logic that it is protecting Muslim lands from non-Muslims and is resurrecting the caliphate — a state governed by a Muslim leader that once controlled vast swaths of the Middle East.

“Please stop calling them the ‘Islamic State,’ because they are not a state and they are not a religion,” said Ahmed Bedier, a Muslim and the president of United Voices of America, a nonprofit that encourages minority groups to engage in civic life.

President Obama has made a similar point, referring to the Islamic State by one of its acronyms — “the group known as ISIL” — in his speech to the United Nations earlier Wednesday. In that speech, Obama also disconnected the group from Islam.

Enumerating its atrocities — the mass rape of women, the gunning down of children, the starvation of religious minorities — Obama concluded: “No God condones this terror.”

Here is the executive summary of their letter:

1. It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry-pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.

2. It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.

3. It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.

4. It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.

5. It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

6. It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

7. It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

9. It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.

10. It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.

11. It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

12. The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

14. It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

15. It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

16. It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct
procedures that ensure justice and mercy.

17. It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.

18. It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.

19. It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God.

20. It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.

21. Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.

22. It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.

24. After the death of the Prophet, Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

Read the full letter here

Their message seems to fall on deaf ears, which is more the point you need to be asking yourself as to why.

Because none of these rabidly anti-Muslim types want to acknowledge that most Muslims aren't violent terrorists.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Because none of these rabidly anti-Muslim types want to acknowledge that most Muslims aren't violent terrorists.

This is nothing to do with being anti Muslims, this is about the failing of Islamic religious leaders in stemming the rise of an extremist ideology.
The reality is this extremism is growing based off an ideology and whilst these statements are good, they only are used to stem those who are anti Muslims, they do little to actually prevent extremism

Ok I have just given the top 3 posts a 'like'

they Basically Sum up the issues around ISIS perfectly and so succinctly it is beautiful.


PS Quill your Avatar is Back

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:WASHINGTON (RNS) More than 120 Muslim scholars from around the world joined an open letter to the “fighters and followers” of the Islamic State, denouncing them as un-Islamic by using the most Islamic of terms.

Relying heavily on the Quran, the 18-page letter released Wednesday (Sept. 24) picks apart the extremist ideology of the militants who have left a wake of brutal death and destruction in their bid to establish a transnational Islamic state in Iraq and Syria.

Even translated into English, the letter will still sound alien to most Americans, said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council of American-Islamic Relations, who released it in Washington with 10 other American Muslim religious and civil rights leaders.

“The letter is written in Arabic. It is using heavy classical religious texts and classical religious scholars that ISIS has used to mobilize young people to join its forces,” said Awad, using one of the acronyms for the group. “This letter is not meant for a liberal audience.”

Even mainstream Muslims, he said, may find it difficult to understand.

Awad said its aim is to offer a comprehensive Islamic refutation, “point-by-point,” to the philosophy of the Islamic State and the violence it has perpetrated. The letter’s authors include well-known religious and scholarly figures in the Muslim world, including Sheikh Shawqi Allam, the grand mufti of Egypt, and Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein, the mufti of Jerusalem and All Palestine.

A translated 24-point summary of the letter includes the following: “It is forbidden in Islam to torture”; “It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God”; and “It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslims until he (or she) openly declares disbelief.”

This is not the first time Muslim leaders have joined to condemn the Islamic State. The chairman of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, Aiman Mazyek, for example, last week told the nation’s Muslims that they should speak out against the “terrorist and murderers” who fight for the Islamic State and who have dragged Islam “through the mud.”

But the Muslim leaders who endorsed Wednesday’s letter called it an unprecedented refutation of the Islamic State ideology from a collaboration of religious scholars. It is addressed to the group’s self-anointed leader, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, and “the fighters and followers of the self-declared ‘Islamic State.’”

But the words “Islamic State” are in quotes, and the Muslim leaders who released the letter asked people to stop using the term, arguing that it plays into the group’s unfounded logic that it is protecting Muslim lands from non-Muslims and is resurrecting the caliphate — a state governed by a Muslim leader that once controlled vast swaths of the Middle East.

“Please stop calling them the ‘Islamic State,’ because they are not a state and they are not a religion,” said Ahmed Bedier, a Muslim and the president of United Voices of America, a nonprofit that encourages minority groups to engage in civic life.

President Obama has made a similar point, referring to the Islamic State by one of its acronyms — “the group known as ISIL” — in his speech to the United Nations earlier Wednesday. In that speech, Obama also disconnected the group from Islam.

Enumerating its atrocities — the mass rape of women, the gunning down of children, the starvation of religious minorities — Obama concluded: “No God condones this terror.”

Here is the executive summary of their letter:

1. It is forbidden in Islam to issue fatwas without all the necessary learning requirements. Even then fatwas must follow Islamic legal theory as defined in the Classical texts. It is also forbidden to cite a portion of a verse from the Qur’an—or part of a verse—to derive a ruling without looking at everything that the Qur’an and Hadith teach related to that matter. In other words, there are strict subjective and objective prerequisites for fatwas, and one cannot ‘cherry-pick’ Qur’anic verses for legal arguments without considering the entire Qur’an and Hadith.

2. It is forbidden in Islam to issue legal rulings about anything without mastery of the Arabic language.

3. It is forbidden in Islam to oversimplify Shari’ah matters and ignore established Islamic sciences.

4. It is permissible in Islam [for scholars] to differ on any matter, except those fundamentals of religion that all Muslims must know.

5. It is forbidden in Islam to ignore the reality of contemporary times when deriving legal rulings.

6. It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

7. It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

8. Jihad in Islam is defensive war. It is not permissible without the right cause, the right purpose and without the right rules of conduct.

9. It is forbidden in Islam to declare people non-Muslim unless he (or she) openly declares disbelief.

10. It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.

11. It is obligatory to consider Yazidis as People of the Scripture.

12. The re-introduction of slavery is forbidden in Islam. It was abolished by universal consensus.

13. It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

14. It is forbidden in Islam to deny women their rights.

15. It is forbidden in Islam to deny children their rights.

16. It is forbidden in Islam to enact legal punishments (hudud) without following the correct
procedures that ensure justice and mercy.

17. It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.

18. It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.

19. It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God.

20. It is forbidden in Islam to destroy the graves and shrines of Prophets and Companions.

21. Armed insurrection is forbidden in Islam for any reason other than clear disbelief by the ruler and not allowing people to pray.

22. It is forbidden in Islam to declare a caliphate without consensus from all Muslims.

23. Loyalty to one’s nation is permissible in Islam.

24. After the death of the Prophet, Islam does not require anyone to emigrate anywhere.

Read the full letter here

Their message seems to fall on deaf ears, which is more the point you need to be asking yourself as to why.

Because ISIS and those who back them know they have no theological rebuttal.

https://youtu.be/dxelJ6ADGes

^Zack. good point. they cover themselves in perverted religiosity to give them some sort of faux divine holy righteousness to appeal to people but the leaders and those who back them know what they truly are and what they want....power....money and to piss of the west.

AND all the while, the shadowy and morals-free "arms dealers" ~ and those manufacturers of weapons, uniforms and equipment (based largely in the USA, France, Russia, Korea, China and India these days..) who supply them wholesale ~ are growing richer and richer by the minute...

I wonder where the main source of finance for ISIS is flowing from and through ?

Cass wrote:^Zack. good point. they cover themselves in perverted religiosity to give them some sort of faux divine holy righteousness to appeal to people but the leaders and those who back them know what they truly are and what they want....power....money and to piss of the west.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:





Their message seems to fall on deaf ears, which is more the point you need to be asking yourself as to why.

Because ISIS and those who back them know they have no theological rebuttal.

Interesting, so why are still Muslims joining in droves to extremist groups?
Is the problem that many are religiously illiterate?
Which we would be odd for every Western Muslim to be religiously illiterate that have joined them, some have been document, but all?
If this is the case, then again the Muslim scholars and Imans are failing drastically with this problem, which clearly needs addressing

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Because ISIS and those who back them know they have no theological rebuttal.

Interesting, so why are still Muslims joining in droves to extremist groups?
Is the problem that many are religiously illiterate?
Which we would be odd for every Western Muslim to be religiously illiterate that have joined them, some have been document, but all?
If this is the case, then again the Muslim scholars and Imans are failing drastically with this problem, which clearly needs addressing

Yeah, that's right! Let's make the imams responsible. Lol! You have a strange sense of what the Muslim community is like. We don't all access or ask imams or scholars, just like the Anglo Saxon community doesn't access an Anglican priest.

Anyway, read: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283661/what-makes-some-british-Muslims-fight-for-isis/

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:

Interesting, so why are still Muslims joining in droves to extremist groups?
Is the problem that many are religiously illiterate?
Which we would be odd for every Western Muslim to be religiously illiterate that have joined them, some have been document, but all?
If this is the case, then again the Muslim scholars and Imans are failing drastically with this problem, which clearly needs addressing

Yeah, that's right! Let's make the imams responsible. Lol! You have a strange sense of what the Muslim community is like. We don't all access or ask imams or scholars, just like the Anglo Saxon community doesn't access an Anglican priest.

Anyway, read: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283661/what-makes-some-british-Muslims-fight-for-isis/

I have no need to read as have read before, clearly the problem within Islam is no central voice, and where there is no central voice people just make thing up as they go along, but the reality is the teachers within Islam are failing and the more conservative Wahhabism, is clearly being backed by substantial money, which is having the affect to attract Muslims.
The reality is though clearly they are being attracted also through extremist doctrine, of which you are missing the fundamental point there is little voice from Muslims themselves to counter this vocally, which the main problem. The other issue which you demonstrate exceptionally well is your distrust and gullibility to conspiracy views made about the west on Islam itself, which does not help either. Thus the problem does require more work from the Muslim community where at present their affect is like a broke pencil, pointless.

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Yeah, that's right! Let's make the imams responsible. Lol! You have a strange sense of what the Muslim community is like. We don't all access or ask imams or scholars, just like the Anglo Saxon community doesn't access an Anglican priest.

Anyway, read: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100283661/what-makes-some-british-Muslims-fight-for-isis/

I have no need to read as have read before, clearly the problem within Islam is no central voice, and where there is no central voice people just make thing up as they go along, but the reality is the teachers within Islam are failing and the more conservative Wahhabism, is clearly being backed by substantial money, which is having the affect to attract Muslims.
The reality is though clearly they are being attracted also through extremist doctrine, of which you are missing the fundamental point there is little voice from Muslims themselves to counter this vocally, which the main problem. The other issue which you demonstrate exceptionally well is your distrust and gullibility to conspiracy views made about the west on Islam itself, which does not help either. Thus the problem does require more work from the Muslim community where at present their affect is like a broke pencil, pointless.

You are beginning to sound like Smelly, in the way you see the Muslim community as a homogenous group of people.

Who are these teachers within Islam? Lol! Do you have a teacher in atheism, who do this grooming?

And how do you know Muslims aren't being vocal? By the lack of media coverage? HA HA! Just because you don't see it in the news, doesn't mean anything.

And if you think the interests of the West in the Middle East is a conspiracy theory, then more fool you.

of course they cover themselves up.....these types like things covered up....
rotherham
bradford
birmingham i am beginning to hear the beginnings of another scandle
etc etc etc........

oh and that letter isnt worth the paper its printed on, not that I doubt its essential truth OR that it was issued with sincere intent.
BUT

consider this....

It is known by the authorities, tits though they are, that a number of so called "jihadists" have returned already,
here's the rub, these "jihadists" MUST be known for what they are in their local community and YET

NONE are swinging from lamp posts and NONE have been handed over to the authorities...
could It be that these communities either a) approve of their actions (and are thus guilty by association)
or b) consider their "religious ties" (i.e. being a Muslim is more important than being british ) overides their obligation to (what they claim is) "their" contry as much as "ours"

Could it just, possibly, be that in this we see that the R/W has been (in this at least) right all along?
and all the too slow, too late hangwringing from the Muslim establishment is nothing but an excercise in "community cohesion"?

someone run the concept of "taqiyya" past me again?????

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:

I have no need to read as have read before, clearly the problem within Islam is no central voice, and where there is no central voice people just make thing up as they go along, but the reality is the teachers within Islam are failing and the more conservative Wahhabism, is clearly being backed by substantial money, which is having the affect to attract Muslims.
The reality is though clearly they are being attracted also through extremist doctrine, of which you are missing the fundamental point there is little voice from Muslims themselves to counter this vocally, which the main problem. The other issue which you demonstrate exceptionally well is your distrust and gullibility to conspiracy views made about the west on Islam itself, which does not help either. Thus the problem does require more work from the Muslim community where at present their affect is like a broke pencil, pointless.

You are beginning to sound like Smelly, in the way you see the Muslim community as a homogenous group of people.  

Who are these teachers within Islam? Lol! Do you have a teacher in atheism, who do this grooming?

And how do you know Muslims aren't being vocal? By the lack of media coverage? HA HA! Just because you don't see it in the news, doesn't mean anything.  

And if you think the interests of the West in the Middle East is a conspiracy theory, then more fool you.

So anyone that gives a critical view of something is some how wrong when in this day and age there is a growing problem with extremism?
Wow, good counter Zack, use the victim status to get yourself out of a hole.
I never said they were not vocal, i fact I know many are which proves how ineffective they are, I said they were like a broke pencil, pointless because they are very much near ineffective, to the point, in the UK prisons, the radicalization process is going in the opposite direction where more are being radicalized in prison more than any being deradicalized, which shows the message and methods being used by Muslims in this field are very ineffective.
No I think some Muslims think more about what happens to other Muslims than their own fellow citizens, which goes back to my point around this being more loyalty to a religion than to a nation, which is then bound to create tension, of those who have a literal view of religion