Why the demand that Muslims 'must condemn ISIS' is racist

First topic message reminder :


But even asking for condemnations is ridiculous. Muslims globally are no more responsible for the actions of ISIS than British Jews are for Israeli war-crimes. During the Gaza offensive no one asked British Jews to apologise for the Israeli bombs that killed hundreds of children. This is despite the fact that British Jews do go and fight in the IDF.

Demanding that Muslims condemn ISIS is xenophobic because it implies that they are sympathetic to the terrorist group unless they state otherwise. It implies all Muslims are responsible for the actions of terrorists. And there’s a double-standard because other minorities aren’t held to the same standard.

Yes, I’m aware that British Muslims have gone to fight with ISIS. But we live in a free country and British Mosques can’t stop people from travelling to Syria any more than the police can stop crimes before they happen.

From:


http://liberalconspiracy.org/2014/08/21/the-demand-that-more-Muslims-must-condemn-isis-is-racist-and-rubbish/

No Didge I am saying we can't Prosecute JUST one side for War Crimes.. and say look how good we are.
You are saying Lets our side commit all the war crimes but will damn them for committing 1.. and you think the local peoples being affected by our war crimes will think that is fair? you think that wont encourage them to hate us and if not join ISIS join the next group?

Again I AM NOT CULPABLE FOR YOUR ACTION OR EVIL MEN LIKE YOU
YOU ARE SAYING I NEED TO VIOLENTLY RESIST THE LEGAL GOV'T to AVOID being held accountable for your EVIL Choices regarding ignoring Geneva conventions, basically you are no different than the German cheering for Hitler cause you were so fucking terrified of the those evil Jews and Gypsies. Your just cheering for a new evil because your so terrified of the Muslims.

YOU are just A HYPOCRITE Happy to let YOUR SIDE BE EVIL.
SO Let's Execute IDF members and anyone that funds them???
EXACT SAME THING. and you don't even condemn IDF actions half the time.


Again Democracy doesn't work and DOESN'T Represent the view of the people. Because they only need the vote of enough Cowards to let them commit atrocities
Hurry up and Vote for the Neo-Hilter coward you seem hell bent on trying to justify you doing so. Yet Ironically Blaming Germans for doing that...

SKYNET will work because cowardly fools like yourself wont get a choice, call the LW wet when you pissing your fucking pants so hard your willing to throw away everything that is humane and decent. You and the RW and not just wet you are sopping with Piss standing up to your ankles in it... Seriously You are pathetic if you think that ISIS is a threat to the West. We are 100's of times more powerful yet Your cowardice mean you want to break the rules cause your shit scared of every bogey man the media presents.

FINE, You can Happily live with it...
JUST NEVER CLAIM TO BE A GOOD MAN AGAIN

the tough decision is defeating them WHILE holding the high moral ground sure it is more difficult and we take greater risk and expense on our behalf BUT that is why the good man chooses it... and the coward gives up his humanity and decency to take the easy way.

the Idea that ISIS is some Huge threat is STUPID, they are very evil and we should stop them but we don't need anything special to do that.
literally the Force that just the UK sent to Iraq (let alone Afghan) out numbers and is Far better equipped than ALL of ISIS. that force was not even 1 quarter of the UK military!!!! So some huge threat!! like the US marine Said 'We took that region in 4 days!!!'
Even Australia Military ALONE out numbers them By 10,000 soldiers let alone epically better equipped!!!!
The USA can Field 30 Soldiers for EVERY SINGLE ISIS insurgent. 1 Tank for every 5 ISIS insurgents, 1 military aircraft for every 3 ISIS insurgents.. and that is not combined that is JUST counting tanks OR planes or Soldiers versus the ENTIRE ISIS organisation

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=United-States-of-America

[quote="veya_victaous"]No Didge I am saying we can't Prosecute JUST one side for War Crimes.. and say look how good we are.
You are saying Lets our side commit all the war crimes but will damn them for committing 1.. and you think the local peoples being affected by our war crimes will think that is fair? you think that wont encourage them to hate us and if not join ISIS join the next group?
Babble, the reality is the US do not actively seek to commit war crimes, IS does, to compare the too is insane and utter bollocks, again you are seeking to deflect from the issue

Again I AM NOT CULPABLE FOR YOUR ACTION OR EVIL MEN LIKE YOU
YOU ARE SAYING I NEED TO VIOLENTLY RESIST THE LEGAL GOV'T to AVOID being held accountable for your EVIL Choices regarding ignoring Geneva conventions, basically you are no different than the German cheering for Hitler cause you were so fucking terrified of the those evil Jews and Gypsies.  Your just cheering for a new evil because your so terrified of the Muslims.
More babble, the Germans viewed all as subhuman and committed atrocities against women and children, where I seek to take on those who take up arms to commit evil, showing your utter ignorance here to compare the two as the same. I m not even making claims to all Muslims, so your view to Jews and Gypsies is again ignorant and complete bollocks

YOU are just A HYPOCRITE Happy to let YOUR SIDE BE EVIL.
SO Let's Execute IDF members and anyone that funds them???  
EXACT SAME THING. and you don't even condemn IDF actions half the time.
Again more babble and deflection, no where have I even stated any such claim
Where again I do not see the actions of Israel against Hamas as wrong strategically and military, though some of its actions could be deemed war crimes, it is hamas that creates the situation for this to happen and again in war difficult decisions are made, many French civilians died through allied shelling and bombing and no war crimes were claimed at this, what it proves is how many people do not understand a thing about war


Again Democracy doesn't work and DOESN'T Represent the view of the people. Because they only need the vote of enough Cowards to let them commit atrocities
Hurry up and Vote for the Neo-Hilter coward you seem hell bent on trying to justify you doing so. Yet Ironically Blaming Germans for doing that...  
More babble, again your view ignores history where again many people were complicit with the Nazis, again the west espcially today looks to have a view where its people has freedom, where the likes of Saudi and Iran do not and you wish to excuse their barbarity which again is absurd

SKYNET will work because cowardly fools like yourself wont get a choice, call the LW wet when you pissing your fucking pants so hard your willing to throw away everything that is humane and decent. You and the RW and not just wet you are sopping with Piss standing up to your ankles in it... Seriously You are pathetic if you think that ISIS is a threat to the West. We are 100's of times more powerful yet Your cowardice mean you want to break the rules cause your shit scared of every bogey man the media presents.
Delusional and more babble and clearly no conception of the threat they do pose and again skynet is fiction

FINE, You can Happily live with it...
JUST NEVER CLAIM TO BE A GOOD MAN AGAIN
Never claimed to be morally right, never have, I just know hard decisions are need to be made against extremists but as seen your defense of them has shown your belief in a,lowing extremism to grow and spread is beyond any rational comprehension

the tough decision is defeating them WHILE holding the high moral ground sure it is more difficult and we take greater risk and expense on our behalf BUT that is why the good man chooses it... and the coward gives up his humanity and decency to take the easy way.
That is babble again, because as seen they are winning with the west mainly using the high moral tactic and have continued to grow whilst we do so

the Idea that ISIS is some Huge threat is STUPID, they are very evil and we should stop them but we don't need anything special to do that.
literally the Force that just the UK sent to Iraq (let alone Afghan) out numbers and is Far better equipped than ALL of ISIS.  that force was not even 1 quarter of the UK military!!!! So some huge threat!! like the US marine Said 'We took that region in 4 days!!!'
Even Australia Military ALONE out numbers them By 10,000 soldiers let alone epically better equipped!!!!
The USA can Field 30 Soldiers for EVERY SINGLE ISIS insurgent.  1 Tank for every 5 ISIS insurgents, 1 military aircraft for every 3 ISIS insurgents.. and that is not combined that is JUST counting tanks OR planes or Soldiers versus the ENTIRE ISIS organisation

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=United-States-of-America[/quote


Well again you are utterly wrong and very naive being as conventional tactics have not defeated any of the islamic extremist groups, or has the Taliban been defeated?
No

You are an Idiot..... the West is using the high moral tactic LOLOLOL!!!! we are still Killing MORE PEOPLE than them!!!! We were still supporting a Puppet dictator against the will of the majority!! We were still taking the national wealth and resources. We still Support Terrorists in the Region like the IDF. WE still ILLEGALLY INVADED the country in the first place!!!!

We have not defeated the Taliban because We have NOT HELD THE HIGH MORAL GROUND the USA was following YOUR strategy of Doing what ever it take to blow shit up (even the breaking of the conventions!!!!) and NOW WE HAVE MORE TERRORISTS because ONLY Cowards fight like that and People don't often side with dishonourable Cowards!!!
YOUR coward tactics were used against the Taliban AND has FAILED because all it does is recruit more enemies, YOU Literally JUST used and example OF how YOUR strategy ALWAYS backfires..
Because again You are VERY SHIT at Tactics have no understanding of the enemy you propose to engage and apparently cannot count either...

My Strategy SPECIAL FORCES ONLY, TARGETED STRIKES ONLY, HOLD THE HIGH MORAL GROUND Actually works in the war for hearts and minds WHICH THIS IS.
Unless You want more terrorist which is all Cowards like you ever achieve.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Yeah and the same ones are denying it is anything to do with Islam and how nothing in their guide book tells them to do any of it....
Like fighting infidels and non believers, forcing conversion to Islam or pay jizya or face death, or striking at the necks etc.... even if they were "people of The book"..... and Mohammed never did any of that either....... no murdering, war, rape, kidnap robbing, death and destruction......
Oh..... hold on a minute..... that IS all in The Koran....!!!!

Really -- chapters and verses, please.

It's all in there..... you call yourself a journalist.... do a bit of investigation.....


It's all there And I have posted some of it already on another thread.


Look up jizya, look up kitman and Taqiyyah, look up what it says about fighting non believers and forcing conversion, jizya or death....


Look up Mohammed and his history of war, killing, rape, death and destruction where ever he went.


He also had a thing for 9 year old girls.....


Didn't see any miracles though..... or raising the dead back to life.... just raising an army of death and brutality....

Do you mean look up anti Islam sites, which you read or some real scholars who hold qualifications on the subject?
Post me a qualified Islamic scholar who is a non_Muslim that agrees with your views above, any American one will do for fairness.
By the way Robert Spencer does not hold any Islamic qualifications

I will give you some help Matti:

A
Agostino Cilardo
Arabist
Arthur John Arberry
Thomas Walker Arnold
Luisa Arvide
Dominique Avon
B
Michael Bonner
Richard Bulliet
C
Leone Caetani
Henry Corbin
Patricia Crone
D
Bayard Dodge
Fred Donner
F
Joseph Fletcher (historian)
H
Donald Hill
Jan Hjärpe
Robert G. Hoyland
J
Hans Jansen
Marsden Jones
K
Andrey Korotayev
Gudrun Krämer
M
Jane Dammen McAuliffe
Christopher Melchert
M cont.
Harald Motzki
N
Jørgen S. Nielsen
R
Harold Rhode
Julián Ribera
Francis Robinson
S
Philip Carl Salzman
Joseph Schacht
Morris S. Seale
Roman Silantyev
Leif Stenberg
Lothrop Stoddard


Surely a majority here will agree with your views?


Bye for now

I don't read anti Islam sites or follow Robert Spence....



It's all in The guide book and it's evidently happening now too!



".... Convert, pay tax, or die, Islamic State warns Christians. Insurgents issue
ultimatum to Iraq's dwindling Christian population..."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/isis-islamic-state-issue-ultimatum-to-iraq-christians


. "We offer them three choices: Islam; the dhimma contract - involving payment of
jizya; if they refuse this they will have nothing but the sword," .

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/uk-iraq-security-christians-idUKKBN0FN29N20140718




Many scholars believe jizya is sanctioned by the Qur'an, the primary source of Islamic law, based on the following verse:
—Qur'an, [Quran 9:29]Since the verse does not define what jizya means, hadith texts that are needed to provide the definition. Not all scholar agree on the exact definition, most notably the Quranist scholars as they generally avoid hadith-inspired interpretation of the Qur'an.
Hadith sources[edit]
Jizya is mentioned a number of times in the hadith. Common themes across multiple hadith (and often multiple collections of hadith) include Muhammad ordering his military commanders to fight non-Muslims who aggressed against the Muslims, until they accepted Islam or paid the jizya, Muhammad and a number of caliphs imposing jizya on non-Muslim residents of Islamic lands, and the eventual abolition of jizya by Jesus' Second Coming.[18]
Sahih Bukhari[edit]
Sahih Bukhari[19][20][21]Jesus will abolish the jizya[22][23]jizya from the "Magian infidels" (Zoroastriansjizya[24]jizyaBahrain[25][26][27]Allah alone or gave jizya.[28][29]Mu'ahid[30]Sahih Muslim[edit]
Sahih MuslimMaryjizya.[31][32]jizya[33]Syrian farmers who had been detained for jizyaNabateansjizya[34][35]jizyaBahrain.[36]Sunan Abu-Dawud[edit]
Sunan Abu-Dawudjizyabooty.[37]jizya.[38]jizya, as [39]Al-Muwatta[edit]
Al-Muwatta of MalikMuhammad collected jizya from the "Magians" (Zoroastrians) of Bahrain, Umar ibn al-Khattab from Magians of Persia, and Uthman ibn Affan from the Berbers.[40]Book 17, Number 17.24.44 states that Umar ibn al-Khattab imposed a jizyadinarsdirhams[41]jizya (not zakatMuhammad[42]Book 17, Number 17.24.46 states that relieved those who converted to Islam from paying jizyasunnah on those who must pay jizyazakat, as zakatjizya'ushr travelling traders must pay, and the rationale for that.[Islamic legal commentary[edit]
Malik, in Al-Muwattadhimmisjizyasunnah is that jizya is only taken from male dhimmisZoroastrians who have reached puberty. jizya is imposed on non-Muslim "People of the Bookzakatjizyajizyajizyajizya, then their land and property become booty for Muslims.Abu YusufHanafi jurist states in his that "The walijizya.[44]ahl al-dhimma[45]Javed Ahmed GhamidiMizanQur’anjizyadhimmis of the Muslims.[46][47]The Islamic historian [48] Al-Tabari extensively recorded the universal application of jizya and its justification. He noted the following precept of Umar[49]Application[edit]
As Muslim army commanders expanded their empire and attacked countries in Asia, Africa and southern Europe, they would offer three conditions to their enemies: convert to Islam, or pay jizyah (tax) every year, or face war to death. Those who refused war and refused to convert were deemed to have agreed to pay jizya.[50][51]
Source of jizya tax[edit]
In early periods of Islam (which periods?), jizya was applied to every free adult male non-Muslim. Slaves, women, children, the old, the sick,[1] monks, hermits and the poor,[2][full citation needed] were all exempt from the tax, unless any of them was independent and wealthy. Though there is no mention of any such exemptions in Sunni Islamic Law, or any example of exemptions being given by Prophet Muhammad or his companions.[52] However, these exemptions were no longer observed during later periods in Muslim history, and discarded entirely by the Shāfi‘ī School of Law, which prevailed in Egypt, also in theory.[53]
Though jizya was mandated initially for People of the Book, viz. adherents of other monotheistic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Sabianism), under the Maliki school of Fiqh, jizya was extended to all non-Muslims.[54] Thus some Muslim rulers collected jizya from Hindus and Sikhs under their rule.[55]
Jizya tax had to be paid by each non-Muslim male in person, by presenting himself, arriving on foot not horseback, by hand, in order to confirm that he lowers himself to being a subjected one, accepts humiliation of having been conquered, willingly pays in gratitude for his life being spared in lieu of the taxes.[56][57]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Ha Ha Ha Ha

So you cannot find one authority figure on the subject to back your views.

Exposed

Why do I need to when the evidence is seen in my previous post.....



Pathetic dodge!

Tommy Monk wrote:Why do I need to when the evidence is seen in my previous post.....



Pathetic dodge!

You have no evidence, as seen women and children are exempt from paying the tax, which history shows and yet IS charges them, showing you do not even read your own link or the fact no Muslim country charges this tax other than IS, so yes you are rather pathetic and have no understanding of Islam. This proves you have been reading anti Islam sites and why you cannot find qualified scholars who are Non_Muslim to back your stance

It's in The Koran dodge.

Tommy Monk wrote:It's in The Koran dodge.

What has that to do with you getting it wrong neglecting women and children are exempt and IS charges them, proving you know nothing on Islam?

Deflection alert.!!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Deflection alert.!!!!

No you just got schooled on your own point

I wasn't making any point on women and children being subjected to jizya.



You are arguing against yourself there dodge and trying to deflect from the rest of mict I posted and the fact that it is all in The Koran.




Plus the Wikipedia page says that sometimes women and children are subjected to jizya so maybe you should argue with them about it...... or maybe you should go out to Iraq and tell ISIS they are doing it wrong!!!




The news stories about Christians and other non Muslims being persecuted and forced to convert to Islam, pay jizya or face death are everywhere both in Iraq and Egypt, Syria and other places.


Plus it is written in The Koran!!!!



Or are you trying to tell us it isn't instructed in The writings of The Koran....????

You were making a point on IS being Islamic, clearly that was wrong, as they charge women and children where history shows those that lived and followed Muhammad never did.
Even with your view on the Quran every Muslim country is different in their interpretation of sharia law, showing again you have no argument, being as this is the same with all religions

Are they forcing people to convert to Islam?

Yes

Are they saying that The alternative is pay jizya or death?


Yes


Is it in The Koran to do this to non Muslims even if they are 'people of The book' (Jews and Christians)?


Yes.

Tommy Monk wrote:Are they forcing people to convert to Islam?
Yes
Are they saying that The alternative is pay jizya or death?
Yes
Is it in The Koran to do this to non Muslims even if they are 'people of The book' (Jews and Christians)?
Yes.

They clearly are unislamic then, as when Muhammad took Mecca, nobody was forced to convert to anything, in fact all could carry on with their faith.
When Jerusalem was taken, nobody was forced to convert to anything.
As i say you have not the first scooby doo what you are talking about

In tell that to ISIS who are forcing conversions to Islam, pay jizya or death.



All in The Koran.

Tommy Monk wrote:In tell that to ISIS who are forcing conversions to Islam, pay jizya or death.



All in The Koran.

You just proved my point again, Muhammad never forced anyone when he took Mecca.
His followers never charged women and children and yet Isis do, thus you are proving how they IS are not Muslims.

Well done ha ha

And happening elsewhere in other Islamic countries including Egypt and Libya.

Nothing to do with Islam and they're not Islamic.....





Piss off dodge!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Nothing to do with Islam and they're not Islamic.....





Piss off dodge!!!

You just proved they are not Islamic, as I say well done Matti, you see I am so easy at making you prove your own point wrong and hence why I told you that you need to read up on subjects you know nothing about, just copying what others claims will always be your downfall

Bullshit dodge.



Is happening in plenty of Islamic countries, not just by ISIS.




Why would a non Muslim force another non Muslim convert to Islam...????




You are ruiningp your own argument dodge and making yourself look either stupid or a liar.



Plus it is in The Koran to force conversion, pay jizya or be killed.

Really that is news to me, which other countries is it law to have the Jiyza out of the 56?
You said plenty I expect to at least see half of these nations with this said law.

take your time

It is in The Koran.


And it is happening in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Somalia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia...... also happened to the last Christians in Tunisia and Jews in Algeria, and to others in Iran.




In fact It appears to be happening or has happened everywhere there are Muslims!!!!

lol, so no evidence to back your claim from any Muslim country which is strange as you claim it is in the Quran

Next

Look up "forced conversion" and add the name of any of The countries I mentioned and there is your evidence.



It is happening.



It has happened.




It is in The Koran,9:29.....






And still happening in many places by Muslims every day....

You can ramble on all day long, you proved your own point wrong Matti, which I have to say really made me laugh, because it proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

More bullshit dodge!!!



It's happening.


It's widely reported in The media.


It's in The Koran.




What more proof do you need?



But all we hear from you is denials and excuses, And now that it is not Islamic.




You've changed your argument so many times that I'm non even sure you know what you are saying any more!

It keeps making me laugh how you are trying to worm out of your fuck up

Same old dodge tactics I see......



Now going on about a non existent fuck up......

Oh its all there to see, not my fault you cannot see where you went wrong, you need to learn to.

Just looked back at posts and It seems that nothing I've said was wrong.

Its quite simple, you need to read back, you fucked up when you used a link to support your view on Jiyza, failing to read it all proving IS are not Muslims with your own claims and in fact are not viewed as Muslims by countless Muslim authorities, which is why I asked you to find any Non Muslim Islamic scholar to back your views and you could not find a single one ha ha ha ha

Proving you have not the first clue what you are talking about.

Waffle.