The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

....

What is clear is that the military operations had a purpose of their own, that they would have been launched regardless, that they were merely waiting on a pretext. They had to come because the vacuum left by Kerry had to be filled. “Closure” was necessary – and it was clear that the Palestinian Authority, which had several months to take an initiative that would have bolstered the Palestinians’ position, would not do so, even though Martin Indyk, the American’s chief negotiator and former AIPAC leader, placed the blame squarely on Israel for talks’ failure.

...

http://jfjfp.com/?p=62231

WE BELIEVE THAT

Peace in the Middle East will only come about with mutual recognition and respect and must be seen as just by both sides.
Peace requires the end of illegal occupation and settlement.
Violence against civilians is unacceptable.
Israel’s policies in the West Bank and Gaza are breeding hatred and resentment.
It is crucial that Jews speak out for Palestinians’ human rights.
The humanitarian values of Judaism have been corrupted by the Israeli state’s human-rights abuses.
A lasting peace must be seen as just by both sides.
Britain, the EU, the USA, Russia and the UN must be persuaded to implement UN resolutions on Palestine.
IF YOU AGREE then link up with over one thousand six hundred other Jews in Britain who make up Jews for Justice for Palestinians

The Torah teaches: ‘Justice, justice, you shall pursue’ (Deuteronomy 16:20).
To secure a lasting settlement to the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis so they can live in peace and security, thrive side by side, and co-operate together, Jews today are obligated to pursue justice on behalf of both peoples.”

RABBI ELIZABETH TIKVAH SARAH
http://jfjfp.com/?page_id=2

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Then, perhaps, we may at last see some justice for Palestinians.”

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What we do

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Without justice for Palestinians, there is no hope for Israel.”

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We support many Israeli peace and human-rights organisations morally and financially including:
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We organise meetings across the UK and produce information on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—both printed and web-based at www.jfjfp.org

We lobby on issues relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, often in association with Palestinians.

We publish adverts occasionally about important current issues in the national and Jewish press

We promote boycott, divestment and sanctions initiatives against Israeli and foreign companies profiting from the illegal occupation.

We support a wide range of Palestinian peace and humanitarian organisations.

We channel humanitarian aid through the British Shalom Salaam Trust, an independent grant-giving charity.

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“The work that Jews for Justice for Palestinians has done is of profound importance for the human rights of Palestinians and Israelis and for reaffirming the long association between Jewish people and the struggle for human rights everywhere.”

FRANCESCA KLUG OBE

They link with the Israeli peace groups and do fantastic work behind the scenes. They are Israel's hope against an Israeli Government bent on destruction.

Max Blumenthal sums the situation up exactly as posted in SM's thread.

As a liberal Zionist, certain statements are expected from me at times like this, so let's get it out of the way:
1. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers was an abominable crime.

2. So was the kidnap and murder of a Palestinian teenager.

3. Palestinians have a right to a state of their own, secure in its own borders,

4. But so does Israel.

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.

6. The Israeli government, whatever my disagreements with it, is still a liberal democracy doing its best under highly adverse circumstances.

7. This doesn't mean that every innocent Palestinian killed isn't a tragedy, but...

8. War is war.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-is-war-why-i-stand-with-israel-9601001.html


This I found the most interesting point which shows how badly hypocritical people are:


A simple illustration: in the Hobbesian nightmare that is Bashar al-Assad's Syria, about 9,000 children have been killed since the civil war began in 2011. Nine thousand. That's the equivalent of a large British secondary school reduced to ashes every six months.

Forgive me if I'm merely being unobservant, but where is the international campaign against the Syrian regime? Is it hiding? Did campuses all over the world hold a “Syrian Genocide Week”, and I just wasn't paying attention?

I think not, somehow. This is not “criticism”, this is obsession.

Phildidge wrote:As a liberal Zionist, certain statements are expected from me at times like this, so let's get it out of the way:
1. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers was an abominable crime.

Agreed.

2. So was the kidnap and murder of a Palestinian teenager.

Agreed.

3. Palestinians have a right to a state of their own, secure in its own borders,

Israel don't agree on this. They want to splinter the West Bank into tiny settlements - so no borders

4. But so does Israel.

But the Israeli establishment want the whole West Bank and leave tiny settlements for Palestinians.

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.


You can say the same about those who back Natanyahu. Who have openly called for a Palestinian Holocaust.

6. The Israeli government, whatever my disagreements with it, is still a liberal democracy doing its best under highly adverse circumstances.

No. For reasons explained above. It may have been relatively more liberal under certain governments. But leaders like Barak still didn't want a 2 state solution with secure borders.

7. This doesn't mean that every innocent Palestinian killed isn't a tragedy, but...

8. War is war.

Those with the greatest power have a greater reponsibility.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-is-war-why-i-stand-with-israel-9601001.html


This I found the most interesting point which shows how badly hypocritical people are:


A simple illustration: in the Hobbesian nightmare that is Bashar al-Assad's Syria, about 9,000 children have been killed since the civil war began in 2011. Nine thousand. That's the equivalent of a large British secondary school reduced to ashes every six months.

Forgive me if I'm merely being unobservant, but where is the international campaign against the Syrian regime? Is it hiding? Did campuses all over the world hold a “Syrian Genocide Week”, and I just wasn't paying attention?

I think not, somehow. This is not “criticism”, this is obsession.

Read my reply above.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Phildidge wrote:As a liberal Zionist, certain statements are expected from me at times like this, so let's get it out of the way:
1. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers was an abominable crime.

Agreed.

2. So was the kidnap and murder of a Palestinian teenager.

Agreed.

3. Palestinians have a right to a state of their own, secure in its own borders,

Israel don't agree on this. They want to splinter the West Bank into tiny settlements - so no borders

4. But so does Israel.

But the Israeli establishment want the whole West Bank and leave tiny settlements for Palestinians.

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.


You can say the same about those who back Natanyahu. Who have openly called for a Palestinian Holocaust.

6. The Israeli government, whatever my disagreements with it, is still a liberal democracy doing its best under highly adverse circumstances.

No. For reasons explained above. It may have been relatively more liberal under certain governments. But leaders like Barak still didn't want a 2 state solution with secure borders.

7. This doesn't mean that every innocent Palestinian killed isn't a tragedy, but...

8. War is war.

Those with the greatest power have a greater reponsibility.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-is-war-why-i-stand-with-israel-9601001.html


This I found the most interesting point which shows how badly hypocritical people are:


A simple illustration: in the Hobbesian nightmare that is Bashar al-Assad's Syria, about 9,000 children have been killed since the civil war began in 2011. Nine thousand. That's the equivalent of a large British secondary school reduced to ashes every six months.

Forgive me if I'm merely being unobservant, but where is the international campaign against the Syrian regime? Is it hiding? Did campuses all over the world hold a “Syrian Genocide Week”, and I just wasn't paying attention?

I think not, somehow. This is not “criticism”, this is obsession.

Read my reply above.

I have Zack, did you read this, which is my point showing that both sides are wrong and hence why only looking to one is wrong:







I have been writing about your conflict for more than three decades. Invariably, I find myself delving into the same themes time and again. The nature of the conflict remains the same. You coexist, and short of self-inflicted catastrophe, you are destined to coexist until the end of time. You must now choose to live in harmony and peace, or in self-consuming enmity and hate.

No Israeli or Palestinian child should ever die for a cause that defies reality and reason. Taking teens hostage and horrifically killing them in cold blood, or abducting a child and grisly burning him alive defies your religious beliefs and the basic tenets of your humanity.

Like beasts, the militant madmen among you creep in the shadows for their prey, to satisfy their lust for revenge and retribution. They disgrace you as a people and a nation, while poisoning the next generations with hostility and disdain, robbing them of their future and destroying the little hope left to live in harmony and peace.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/an-open-letter-to-the-isr_b_5578303.html

It is Israel's Jewishness that offends the most, which is why there's never such a big fuss about Muslim oppression of other Muslims. Especially ISIS carving off thousands of Shia's heads, or the countless other sectarian Muslim killings, that's just a blip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

The Puzzler wrote:It is Israel's Jewishness that offends the most, which is why there's never such a big fuss about Muslim oppression of other Muslims. Especially ISIS carving off thousands of Shia's heads, or the countless other sectarian Muslim killings, that's just a blip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

Yet far many more Muslims signed up and fought and even died to defend nations not of their own in WW2 on the allied side.

Phildidge wrote:

The Puzzler wrote:It is Israel's Jewishness that offends the most, which is why there's never such a big fuss about Muslim oppression of other Muslims. Especially ISIS carving off thousands of Shia's heads, or the countless other sectarian Muslim killings, that's just a blip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

Yet far many more Muslims signed up and fought and even died to defend nations not of their own in WW2 on the allied side.

Yes - but the links between Palestine and the Nazis cannot be ignored. It helps to explain why Israel is so defensive, if Palestine and other Arab countries had their way, Israel would be a glass carpark. At the end of the day Didge, we agree on this in that both sides need to seek reconciliation. Extremists like Sassy and SM are the reason the conflict rages on, neither Zionists nor Hamas supporters/Islamists want to accept any portion of blame.

The Puzzler wrote:

Phildidge wrote:



Yet far many more Muslims signed up and fought and even died to defend nations not of their own in WW2 on the allied side.

Yes - but the links between Palestine and the Nazis cannot be ignored. It helps to explain why Israel is so defensive, if Palestine and other Arab countries had their way, Israel would be a glass carpark.

No the only link is due to the Grand Muffti and even Jewish extremists were working for Admiral Canaris in Palestine.

Hamas is the problem within Palestine

Phildidge wrote:

The Puzzler wrote:
Yes - but the links between Palestine and the Nazis cannot be ignored. It helps to explain why Israel is so defensive, if Palestine and other Arab countries had their way, Israel would be a glass carpark.

No the only link is due to the Grand Muffti and even Jewish extremists were working for Admiral Canaris in Palestine.

Hamas is the problem within Palestine

And one of the links you just quoted says that Hamas would be globally condemned as neo nazis if they were white Christians. Which is why it always amuses me that anyone who has issues with political Islam aka Islamism is labelled far right, when in actual fact islamic terror groups and islamofascist political entities have far more in common with Nazi ideology.

The Puzzler wrote:

Phildidge wrote:


No the only link is due to the Grand Muffti and even Jewish extremists were working for Admiral Canaris in Palestine.

Hamas is the problem within Palestine

And one of the links you just quoted says that Hamas would be globally condemned as neo nazis if they were white Christians. Which is why it always amuses me that anyone who has issues with political Islam aka Islamism is labelled far right, when in actual fact islamic terror groups and islamofascist political entities have far more in common with Nazi ideology.

Sorry disagree on that, completely different political extremism.
Hamas would be one of the few to the exception to this rule having a racial hatred, but again they do not claim Arab racial superiority, so there is little to link to Nazi ideology.

The sad part is at one point both the Arab Legion and the Palmach fought together for the British in the Middle East in WW2

Phildidge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Read my reply above.

I have Zack, did you read this, which is my point showing that both sides are wrong and hence why only looking to one is wrong:







I have been writing about your conflict for more than three decades. Invariably, I find myself delving into the same themes time and again. The nature of the conflict remains the same. You coexist, and short of self-inflicted catastrophe, you are destined to coexist until the end of time. You must now choose to live in harmony and peace, or in self-consuming enmity and hate.

No Israeli or Palestinian child should ever die for a cause that defies reality and reason. Taking teens hostage and horrifically killing them in cold blood, or abducting a child and grisly burning him alive defies your religious beliefs and the basic tenets of your humanity.

Like beasts, the militant madmen among you creep in the shadows for their prey, to satisfy their lust for revenge and retribution. They disgrace you as a people and a nation, while poisoning the next generations with hostility and disdain, robbing them of their future and destroying the little hope left to live in harmony and peace.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/an-open-letter-to-the-isr_b_5578303.html

Ok, so what would your final solution (no, not that kind) be? This is fundamentally about land. So let's start there. What would your borders look like, or what do you think they should look like?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Phildidge wrote:


I have Zack, did you read this, which is my point showing that both sides are wrong and hence why only looking to one is wrong:







I have been writing about your conflict for more than three decades. Invariably, I find myself delving into the same themes time and again. The nature of the conflict remains the same. You coexist, and short of self-inflicted catastrophe, you are destined to coexist until the end of time. You must now choose to live in harmony and peace, or in self-consuming enmity and hate.

No Israeli or Palestinian child should ever die for a cause that defies reality and reason. Taking teens hostage and horrifically killing them in cold blood, or abducting a child and grisly burning him alive defies your religious beliefs and the basic tenets of your humanity.

Like beasts, the militant madmen among you creep in the shadows for their prey, to satisfy their lust for revenge and retribution. They disgrace you as a people and a nation, while poisoning the next generations with hostility and disdain, robbing them of their future and destroying the little hope left to live in harmony and peace.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/an-open-letter-to-the-isr_b_5578303.html

Ok, so what would your final solution (no, not that kind) be? This is fundamentally about land. So let's start there. What would your borders look like, or what do you think they should look like?

No this is about peace and two nations living in peace, united in peace, for going the past problems, which started after one side went to war after becoming an independent nation.
I would choose the borders that were given in 1948, but this may be too difficult now due to demographic changes, so make what areas there are now into a nation.
What are you going to do about Hamas, and why are you not even concerned about Hamas?
I am very concerned at the Zionists also, which both these groups are preventing peace. You see in any conflict when you have two opposing extremist groups conflicts will continue and why casting blame on either side will not change anything, what will is people, both Palestinian and Jewish uniting to end the violence and hate

You would have peace in 10 minutes if borders were resolved along the lines of 1948.

Changing borders to take into account current demographics is always going to be a problem. And always has been.

Who said I wasn't concerned by Hamas? But who controls them? That's why Israel making peace with Iran is critical. This will resolve the Hamas problem.

The extreme, hardcore Zionists will not be persuaded or stopped that easily. The resettlement of Gaza was just the tip of the iceberg. And Gaza wasn't even that religiously important to them. What do you think will happen if they give up large Chuncks of the West Bank? Maybe even East Jerusalem.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:You would have peace in 10 minutes if borders were resolved along the lines of 1948.

Changing borders to take into account current demographics is always going to be a problem. And always has been.

Who said I wasn't concerned by Hamas? But who controls them? That's why Israel making peace with Iran is critical. This will resolve the Hamas problem.

The extreme, hardcore Zionists will not be persuaded or stopped that easily. The resettlement of Gaza was just the tip of the iceberg. And Gaza wasn't even that religiously important to them. What do you think will happen if they give up large Chuncks of the West Bank? Maybe even East Jerusalem.

Come on lets face it the area is not that religiously important to the Palestinians Zack and that is the real problem here is religion in its literal form, where you will always find a problem.
It works both ways where Iran who has for years vowed to wipe out Israel, has to also work towards this peace and prove they also wish to want Israel to exist also, this has not exactly been forth coming has it
Again if the Jewish people stand up united against the Zionists it will happen, the same happen with people standing up to Apatheid in South Africa, so anything is possible. No retribution happened there to those who imposed apartheid, in fact what happened was reconciliation, which is needed here.
So again I am all for both seeking peace, blaming one or the other will accomplish nothing as has been the case for decades, but one thing is needed, is to unite on both sides, against both extremists

Apart from East Jerusalem, you're right. There is no religious importance to the WB for the Palestinians. But there importance for the Zionists.

Irans rhetoric about Israel isn't as entrenched as you think. Diplomatic ties are already improving. Esp. With ISIS in the situation.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Apart from East Jerusalem, you're right. There is no religious importance to the WB for the Palestinians. But there importance for the Zionists.

Irans rhetoric about Israel isn't as entrenched as you think. Diplomatic ties are already improving. Esp. With ISIS in the situation.

Yes but is that more to do with a threat to Shia Muslims than it is to do with any peace with Israel?
Iran and Saudi have always been at odds with each other, and both have clearly influenced groups in conflicts, so it is going to take more than just Iran to solve this issue with peace, hence I know it is going to be difficult.
As I say, the friendship maybe more about enemies enemy is my friend at this given moment!