We were wrong, all cultures are not equal

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:55 am

For years, we all turned a blind eye to the segregation of Muslim pupils. Now it is time to stand up to propagators of barbarism and ignorance.

If I have learnt one thing working with children as a teacher, a volunteer and, more recently, a parent, it’s that what children want above all else is to fit in... Integrating children into a new society, then, should not present too much of a problem... common interests for youngsters are not hard to find. So how have we ended up with a situation where so many Muslims are adrift from the mainstream? Why this scandal in Birmingham where five overwhelmingly Muslim schools, some until recently judged to be outstanding, are to be put into special measures because they have sought to inculcate ideas that are repellent to this country?

Let me quote Myriam Francois-Cerrah, a writer and Muslim convert, who told Channel 4 News on Tuesday that she rejected calls by the Prime Minister and Michael Gove, the Education Secretary, for schools to promote British values. “In many ways, the problem is creating a hierarchy of cultures when you say you need to promote British values,” she objected. “What does that say to children in a classroom whose heritage harks from outside the British Isles? It says this country has superior moral values and you are coming from some backward culture whose values you … must not consider equal to our own.” Funnily enough, that’s exactly what we are saying, Myriam. Spot on! A Muslim girl who winds up in Bolton or Luton should thank her lucky stars she doesn’t live in Sudan – or Pakistan, where, only last month, a woman was stoned to death by her family for the crime of marrying a man of whom they disapproved. Are British values superior to Mr Parveen’s? I do hope so...

Unfortunately, the great lie underpinning the creed of multiculturalism, as spouted by Francois‑Cerrah and her ilk, is that all cultures are “equally valid”. Well, patently, they’re not. The reason irate Pakistani patriarchs are not chucking bricks at their errant daughters in the Birmingham Bull Ring is because Britain has a basically uncorrupt police force, a robust judiciary and an enlightened, hard-won system of liberal values that regards women and girls as equals, not third-class citizens...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10892606/Trojan-Horse-debate-We-were-wrong-all-cultures-are-not-equal.html

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:59 am

I've just done a thread with a totally different point of view about Trojan Horse in UK news. I think it puts into perspective the views in that article Tess.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:10 am

The crisis in Birmingham made me look up Ray Honeyford. The headmaster of a school in Bradford, Honeyford published an article highly critical of multiculturalism around the same time that I was wondering why Muslim girls in west London weren’t allowed to learn how to swim. Honeyford was damned as a racist and forced to take early retirement, but how prophetic his words seem now. The alarmed headmaster referred to a “growing number of Asians whose aim is to preserve as intact as possible the values of the Indian subcontinent within a framework of British social and political privilege”. Honeyford questioned the wisdom of the local education authority in allowing such practices as the withdrawal of children from school for months at a time, in order to go “home” to Pakistan, on the grounds that this was appropriate to the children’s native culture.

“Those of us working in Asian areas,” he wrote, “are encouraged, officially, to 'celebrate linguistic diversity’ – ie, applaud the rapidly mounting linguistic confusion in these growing number of city schools in which British-born Asian children begin their mastery of English by being taught in Urdu.”

Ray Honeyford died in 2012, so he didn’t live to see the Leeds secondary school where every single pupil, including a handful of white ones, is being taught English as a foreign language. He didn’t need to see it. He knew it would happen, and what the cost would be, and his warnings were shouted down or put away in the Too Difficult Box.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:45 pm

Chickens are coming home to roost

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:01 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:Chickens are coming home to roost

My thoughts entirely. A mainstream paper like the Telegraph daring to mention the elephant in the room...

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:04 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:Chickens are coming home to roost

My thoughts entirely. A mainstream paper like the Telegraph daring to mention the elephant in the room...

If they can no longer ignore it then it must be even worse than what is actually being reported

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:16 pm

Good article.

'Celebrating diversity' is a phrase that makes me want to puke.

Other cultures and backgrounds have been given special status for far too long.

Multiculturalism is the problem not the solution.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:16 pm

Are British values superior to Mr Parveen’s? I do hope so... ?

Wow where have I heard that argument before?
So is anyone going to tell me what these superior British values are?

Binge drinking?

Domestic violence?

Child rape?

Football Hooliganism

I mean going by the racist logic in the article and how certain things happen by some in a country and culture, then surely if there is a certain level of this in this country, do we attribute just 4 of the examples I have provided as a British culture or values?

Also how do we even teach this?

So where are these values that is being claimed come from?

Have to say just about the most racist article I have read in some time really.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:22 pm

Ah well, as no-one wants to read the other side of the coin on the correct thread, I'll post it here:

Michael Gove's toxic assault on schools is based on naked discrimination
By branding religious conservatism 'extremism' in Birmingham, ministers are making it clear that different rules apply to Muslims

The harassment of minorities on the basis of forged documents has a grim history. So the official onslaught on mainly Muslim state schools in Birmingham, triggered by what has all the hallmarks of a fabricated letter outlining a supposed Islamist plot to take them over, should be cause for deep alarm.

Instead, the architect of the clampdown, education secretary Michael Gove, has been hailed by the bulk of the press for standing up to "extremism". Inspectors have now turned their attention to an alleged Islamic takeover of schools in Bradford, and a local MP has demanded action to halt the "Islamist infiltration" of east London politics.

All this is music to the ears of the neoconservative Gove, who regards political Islam as a totalitarian "enemy within" and has gone to war with the home secretary, Theresa May, over who can claim to be toughest on Muslim "extremism". Four separate inquiries, including by the former head of counter-terrorism at Scotland Yard, have been set in train.

Now the schools inspector Ofsted, transparently under political direction, has done what was expected of it. Five schools have been put in special measures, four lined up for takeover and 11 others taken to task – mostly for not teaching children enough about the threat of extremism.

But this extremism turns out to be a different beast from the one first trailed in lurid accusations a few months back. It is nothing to do with terrorism, or even the elastic boo-word of Islamism. The target is religious conservatism – or even just plain religiousness.

But for Gove – and now David Cameron – "nonviolent extremism" must be targeted as much as its violent counterpart. For those unclear what extremism might mean exactly, the government last year defined it as "opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect".

That clearly wouldn't apply to those involved with the targeted Birmingham schools – who, like most British Muslims, are more likely to identify with Britain than the rest of the population. But some are religious conservatives who Gove equates with "extremists" – convinced there is a "conveyor belt" from Muslim piety to terror.

So the inspectors had no problem finding the evidence required and what they claimed was a "culture of fear and intimidation", even if the evidence was thin on the ground. Teachers and parents say the fear and intimidation was rather spread by inspectors, who turned their findings on their head in 10 days.

They came up with a string of allegations, most based on hearsay, contested or exaggerated out of recognition according to teachers and parents. Christmas had been cancelled, it was said, music banned, an extremist preacher had addressed pupils, girls and boys were segregated, western women had been described as "white prostitutes".

The only prostitute mentioned turned out to be in a homily of the Prophet Muhammad's about a woman who saved a thirsty dog, Christmas events abounded in the censured schools, music was taught and gender segregation took place in PE, as in many other schools – while single sex schools are common across the country.

But the absurdity of the inspectors' findings is clearest in the case of Gracelands nursery school, whose staff were taken to task for failing to ensure its 2- to 4-year-olds were protected against "extreme and radical behaviour".

That's not to say, of course, that there's nothing behind the allegations, which have clearly been fed by former and current staff – or that there aren't legitimate grievances. These are not faith schools and some have clearly pushed the schools' religious boundaries.

It's just that they have nothing to do with extremism or terrorism, and could have easily been dealt with in a routine system of accountability. Instead, schools which had delivered outstanding results for deprived communities are now smeared and destabilised – and their pupils with them.

There's a powerful case for secular education. But it doesn't exist in Britain's schools, which are awash with religion. And unless the same rules apply to all, the result is naked discrimination. But has Gove sent inspectors to root out anti-abortionism and homophobia in Catholic or evangelical-sponsored schools, or cultural isolation in mainly white schools where racism is rife?

Not at all. Nor has he investigated the influence in schools of far-right extremists. Instead, he's effectively ordered two Birmingham schools serving overwhelmingly Muslim populations, Oldknow and Golden Hillock, to hold a "daily, broadly Christian act of worship" (excused in other such schools).

Of course, Gove's drive to break up and part-privatise the English school system has cut away the local accountability which could have checked some of the problems in Birmingham, which are now being used to line them up for a real takeover by his pet academy chains.

But the campaign to bring to heel Birmingham's schools and humiliate the Muslim community in the process is a wider threat in a country where war-fuelled Islamophobia is already rampant. Dog-whistling to Ukip bigotry might seem a cute electoral trick.

However, it risks driving Muslims from participation in public life, pushing Muslim pupils out of the state sector and boosting the extremism the government claims to be battling. Gove's assault on Muslim schools in Birmingham isn't about British values: it's a poisonous campaign of discrimination and intimidation.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:31 pm

This was posted the other day and shows how we can at least laugh at the stupidity of some people like the one who wrote this article:

But what exactly are "British values", you ask?

Luckily, Twitter is here to help out the education secretary:

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal BpxFesjCYAI0zBV

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal BpxFesjCYAI0zBV

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal Bpw6Br3CYAEDjX4

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal BpxkgCiCAAA75On

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/10/michael-gove-twitter-troj_n_5477567.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:33 pm

Have to say, that made me laugh!

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:39 pm

Sassy wrote:Have to say, that made me laugh!

lol Well Sassy we do have one great British value, a great sense of humour.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:42 pm

Binge drinking?
Some people get drunk sometimes. And?
Domestic violence?
Want to talk about this compared to what happens in other countries?
Child rape?
Again, hardly a British culture thing is it.... it's the Muslims who marry off their 9 year old daughters to old men....
Football Hooliganism
Hardly, is a massive problem in other countries. Not really here.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Binge drinking?
Some people get drunk sometimes. And?
Domestic violence?
Want to talk about this compared to what happens in other countries?
Child rape?
Again, hardly a British culture thing is it.... it's the Muslims who marry off their 9 year old daughters to old men....
Football Hooliganism
Hardly, is a massive problem in other countries. Not really here.

I am going by the logic of the article where something happens in a country we thus attribute this to the values of a country, so people get violently drunk every weekend in this country an are you saying getting drunk through binge drinking where people collapse end up in hospital, girls get raped etc is something that we should be teaching our children to do as adults, as it being very much part of our culture that happens every weekend?
Well we have over 300,000 estimated Pedophiles in this country, that is quite a number so again it is attributed to British values?
Massive problem with domestic violence in this country and have had for years

You know little about football hooliganism, where we basically invented it, so much so every other country tried to emulate ours, where again should we teach this British value to our children, where it is great fun to hate an opposing football fan and want to kick his teeth in, by taking an iron bar to his face?

So basically going by the logic of the article you are ignoring these problems in this country, you attribute them to other cultures, yet when we have problems here you try to white wash them, funny that

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:56 pm

Didge is just diverting again

Muslim have been exposed infiltrating British schools to promote terrorism aka real Islam

The left have no defence so they must deploy a smoke screen

Binge drinking has nothing to do with the thread

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:59 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:Didge is just diverting again

Muslim have been exposed infiltrating British schools to promote terrorism aka real Islam

The left have no defence so they must deploy a smoke screen

Binge drinking has nothing to do with the thread

Ah the old Nazi v Jew argument.

There is no evidence Muslims have been infiltrating schools to promote terrorism.

So binge drinking to you is not part of what happens in this country every single weekend?

Nothing to do with left or right, when the same logic is applied to idiots about this country, they look like you always do:

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal Confused-baby_o_1036729

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal Confused-baby_o_1036729

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:02 pm

Correct smelly.
Divert, deflect, waffle.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:03 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Correct smelly.
Divert, deflect, waffle.

Free period is over, think you are late for class.

So thanks for your point I see you have none as per usual

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:06 pm

To quote Shirley Bassey, I am what I am.
And what I am is a Muslim.
And in answer to the most common questions I get asked when people discover I'm a practicing Muslim:
Yes. Yes. Yes. No.
(Do I pray? Do I eat only halal? Do I observe Ramadan? Do I wear a head scarf?)
Oh and before I get in a car I say a du'a for a safe journey; which causes my non-Muslim friends much amusement (although I think they are secretly pleased for the additional protection, especially if I'm driving).
I live my life according to my spiritual beliefs and in accordance with my relationship with my God.
And just for clarity, I'm British.
Born and brought up in the Small Heath part of the constituency I represent, living above the cornershop that my parents ran, I went to Small Heath School, one of the 21 schools recently investigated by Ofsted. It serves one of the poorest communities in the UK and serves them supremely well; rated Outstanding in its last four inspections.
Most of the pupils at the school are Muslim, which is probably the sole reason it got dragged into the whole Trojan Horse debacle in the first place.
And it is a debacle. Ofsted have now reported but two further enquiries have yet to publish their results. What this means for Muslims in Birmingham is at least two more months where the words Muslim and extremist are lazily interchanged and where clear problems of governance get redefined as radicalisation.
And this matters.
It matters to parents and pupils and anyone who has an interest in providing excellent education to children in our schools. If we incorrectly understand the problem that has affected a small number of Birmingham schools then we won't be able to fix it.
The problems of governance identified in the reports are serious but eminently fixable. Bullying of staff or pupils is simply wrong, whereever it occurs. We need to be clear that pupils, staff and parents understand what it is when they see it and how they get it stopped if it is happening. Every school should be run according to the rules that underpin its existence. It's called good governance.
And it's not like we don't have plenty of examples of great well-governed state schools in predominately Muslim areas to turn to for advice. Here in Birmingham we have for decades run non faith schools in the state system which accommodate pupils with faith. Whether that be a classroom set aside at lunchtime for students who wish to have time for spiritual reflection or the modification of school uniform rules to allow for headscarves or turbans. We need to look closely at the schools in Birmingham - like Small Heath - that do it well and see what we can learn from them.
And it also matters because these necessary discussions and investigations could and should have been conducted through the prism of ensuring good governance. But what we have had is a national debate which has discussed the education of Muslim children through the prism of national security instead.
And this lazy discussion (practicing Muslim = extremist = on the conveyer belt to terrorism) is getting just a little tired.
And for the record, I'm tired too.
I'm tired of getting up in the morning and hearing of the latest Muslim plot to take over the school/the city/the world (delete as appropriate); tired of being told that praying five times a day at a mosque is extremist; tired of being treated like being a Muslim is like having some kind of disease (and if you go to Pizza Express you might catch it too, sorry about that).
Having a long beard or wearing a niqab may well be religiously conservative but it is not extremist. And there is no evidence that religious conservatism within Islam leads to violence and extremism.
And if there was really evidence that the central charge laid at the doors of these schools - that there was an organised and successful attempt to radicalise the children of this city - then don't you think Ofsted would have found it? 21 inspections and the central charge remains unproven.
So when Michael Gove talks about the values of Britishness, I wonder whose British values he is talking about. His own, which have led to a decision to appoint a counter terrorism expert to head up an investigation into school governance?
Or is the British values that I see, live and breathe on a daily basis?
The values that gave a chance to a Kashmiri origin working class Muslim girl brought up in one of poorest areas of her city to become an MP? The values that took me from Small Heath School to Parliament to swear my loyalty on the Quran to the Queen and serve to the best of my ability the area in which I was born, raised and live still.
I hope and pray for all our sakes that it is the latter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shabana-mahmood/muslim-schools_b_5486412.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:16 pm

And The obligatory huff and puff......

It's a full house!!!

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:17 pm

No its a Royal Flush, which always beats a full house of idiots.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:24 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:Didge is just diverting again

Muslim have been exposed infiltrating British schools to promote terrorism aka real Islam

The left have no defence so they must deploy a smoke screen

Binge drinking has nothing to do with the thread

Ah the old Nazi v Jew argument.

There is no evidence Muslims have been infiltrating schools to promote terrorism.

So binge drinking to you is not part of what happens in this country every single weekend?

Nothing to do with left or right, when the same logic is applied to idiots about this country, they look like you always do:

Lol

Once again the more convincing and overwhelming the evidence the harder the left ignore, deny and see no evil

Police investigation

MP investigations

Ofsted imposing special measure

Didge the defender thinks there is no evidence

Sure pal, I'll trust the authorities over the whining of some half witted Pakistani Muslim telling us there is no evidence that Muslims would ever do such a thing

What's next??

Islam means peace

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:32 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:

Ah the old Nazi v Jew argument.

There is no evidence Muslims have been infiltrating schools to promote terrorism.

So binge drinking to you is not part of what happens in this country every single weekend?

Nothing to do with left or right, when the same logic is applied to idiots about this country, they look like you always do:

Lol

Once again the more convincing and overwhelming the evidence the harder the left ignore, deny and see no evil

Police investigation

MP investigations

Ofsted imposing special measure

Didge the defender thinks there is no evidence

Sure pal, I'll trust the authorities over the whining of some half witted Pakistani Muslim telling us there is no evidence that Muslims would ever do such a thing

What's next??

Islam means peace

yes lots of investigating and all they could come up with was a claim to not preventing extremism teaching being taught, how odd, which does not come anywhere near what you are claiming, which is being disputed, and fro m what I hear is going to be taken to court

So back to you must must be gay for standing up for gay rights absurdity by claiming I am Muslim and Pakistani, ha ha, what a wally again showing how you lose any credibility by such stupidity.

So I see you divert the debate where I asked for if anyone can describe these superior British Values?

Good luck

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:32 pm

You need a flush down the throne.....

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You need a flush down the throne.....

Wow, the problem is you need to know where the flush actually is., would you like a guide book?

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:42 pm

Those examples you give are still infinitely superior to FGM, honour killings , stoning to death for leaving Islam, selective infanticide through abortion.

But then again you are a Muslim

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:45 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:Those examples you give are still infinitely superior to FGM, honour killings , stoning to death for leaving Islam, selective infanticide through abortion.

But then again you are a Muslim

The first two are not Islamic and happens with Christians, Hindu's etc as well, and the Bible advocates the same for turning away from God, guess you never read about the Golden Calf have you.

But then again you are so desperate, you call a person who stands against your hate a Muslim, ha h, when I think Islam like any religion are all man made crocks of shit.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:54 pm

Sure pal

Drunken slags

Football hooligans

Binge drinking

All superior to other cultures you claim are our equal

Fgm our equal?

Don't think so

Honour killings our equal?

Don't think so

The worst of western and uk culture is still infinitely superior to the very best anything Islam or African culture can produce

But being a Muslim didge, you naturally refuse to accept your barbaric and backward religious lifestyle I anything but the best

Your beloved homosexuals are executed in Islamic society

Rape is punishable in islamic society

Freedom of religions is non existent

How is our culture not superior??

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:02 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:Sure pal

Drunken slags

Football hooligans

Binge drinking

All superior to other cultures you claim are our equal

Fgm our equal?

Don't think so

Honour killings our equal?

Don't think so

The worst of western and uk culture is still infinitely superior to the very best anything Islam or African culture can produce

But being a Muslim didge, you naturally refuse to accept your barbaric and backward religious lifestyle I anything but the best

Your beloved homosexuals are executed in Islamic society

Rape is punishable in islamic society

Freedom of religions is non existent

How is our culture not superior??

Actually what I am showing is that within all societies there is good and bad, and that not all people act as you claim and associate within a society, showing how poor your fallacy arguments are.

You see I stated clearly from the start using the daft racist logic of such views, you could use the same here but now you are claiming the rape of children is nothing.

Rape is allowed in the bible

So is killing people who leave the faith

So is killing your own children if they are disobedient

So is adultery

Etc etc, with countless years of this actually happening when religious and political elites rules, but we threw off the religious idiots, hence why religious idiots like you do not get to carry out your religious political views anymore in the west and in time the same will happen in Muslim countries

Do you really want to keep looking silly

You see this is why such arguments were used once before against the Jew, they are racial in tone and seek to claim people of a said culture or nation are all inherently bad, when as seen we have countless problem with some people in this country

I guess now according to the logic of smelly if you are an atheist you are a Muslim

That is Christian ideology for you at its best

One moment

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:22 pm

When was the last time a Christian was killed for leaving Christianity??

The last time a Muslim was killed was probably 5 minutes ago

When was the last time a child was killed for being disobedient to their parents??

Probably 5 minutes ago in a Muslim country , shot it happens so regularly they even have a name for it - honour killing

When was the last time an adulterer was sentenced to death??

Probably about 5 minutes ago in some Muslim country

When was the last time any of these where enforced by western courts??

Go ahead didge you love evidence so much as you keep whining about on the Trojan horse threads, so where is the evidence that any of the above is happening in western countries

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:23 pm

Didge is getting wound up again (he over uses the laughing smilie at random when he gets wound up)

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:30 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:When was the last time a Christian was killed for leaving Christianity??
Irrelevant, as stated, where religious elites ruled, is where such things happen, in the west religious elites do not rule anymore, when it did, it happened often

The last time a Muslim was killed was probably 5 minutes ago

When was the last time a child was killed for being disobedient to their parents??
Plenty of times, do you ever read the news how parents abuse their children.

Probably 5 minutes ago in a Muslim country , shot it happens so regularly they even have a name for it - honour killing
Honour killing is not islamic again, so we know Christians have honour killings so by your logic Christianity endorses honour killings

When was the last time an adulterer was sentenced to death??
When religious elites ruled as stated

Probably about 5 minutes ago in some Muslim country

When was the last time any of these where enforced by western courts??

Go ahead didge you love evidence so much as you keep whining about on the Trojan horse threads, so where is the evidence that any of the above is happening in western countries

yeah it was easy again, as explained where religious elites rule, this events happen, and this is proven throughout history, so explain to me why it did happen in the west when religious and political elites ruled and how it stopped after they did not rule? Explain how people who are Christian today an as seen a
advocate for biblical law, but because religious and political elites do not rule, they want it, hence why your argument has no logic, you ignore that it has happened or that it could happen again.
Have done this some many times with you that you always never have an answer.
So why for centuries in the west were people killed for this? Is it because people stopped the religious elites rulling and controlling

Take your time

Have to go, but cannot wait until I see your feeble attempt to answer that

by nicko Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:34 pm

never mind what happened years ago what's happening NOW?

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:43 pm

nicko wrote:never mind what happened years ago what's happening NOW?

Oh dear

What did you not understand about when religious elites rule?

by nicko Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:18 pm

Don't under stand any of it, but when some one reports whats happening TODAY you go off about what happened years ago!!

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:30 pm

nicko wrote:Don't under stand any of it, but when some one reports whats happening TODAY you go off about what happened years ago!!

The same still does happen today in parts of Africa where religious elites rule, this is the point and there are those who wish to have a return to biblical law in the west. The point is when such religious elite rule, these things happen, because they all advocate religious laws and as seen in any of the books that is never good.

Anyway catch you later

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:49 pm

Didge wrote:
nicko wrote:Don't under stand any of it, but when some one reports whats happening TODAY you go off about what happened years ago!!

The same still does happen today in parts of Africa where religious elites rule, this is the point and there are those who wish to have a return to biblical law in the west. The point is when such religious elite rule, these things happen, because they all advocate religious laws and as seen in any of the books that is never good.

Anyway catch you later

Haven't you just shot yourself in the foot? Those things happen in Africa you say, but not in England. Why's that then?

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:54 pm

Didge wrote:This was posted the other day and shows how we can at least laugh at the stupidity of some people like the one who wrote this article:

But what exactly are "British values", you ask?

Luckily, Twitter is here to help out the education secretary:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/10/michael-gove-twitter-troj_n_5477567.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Flippin Americans eh?

We were wrong, all cultures are not equal Arecou10

Oh, and on the second one - it's very, very clear that the first and last letters of the word aslan have been changed - they are a different size to the others.

Gave me a laugh though.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:57 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Didge wrote:
nicko wrote:Don't under stand any of it, but when some one reports whats happening TODAY you go off about what happened years ago!!

The same still does happen today in parts of Africa where religious elites rule, this is the point and there are those who wish to have a return to biblical law in the west. The point is when such religious elite rule, these things happen, because they all advocate religious laws and as seen in any of the books that is never good.

Anyway catch you later
Haven't you just shot yourself in the foot? Those things happen in Africa you say, but not in England. Why's that then?

We tend to assume all human beings are going through the same history at once, but that's not the case at all.

Europe has a lot of advantages -- it's one of the top three most arable places in the world and has been for a long time; it hasn't seen a land war in about 70 years; it's still riding the waves of wealth that rolled in from colonizing other parts of the world.

If the British were to be conquered in a war, ruled by a dictator, and stuck into the middle of a 50-year drought, I doubt very seriously that the British would behave all that differently than people who are currently living in such conditions.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:58 pm

and my old favourite...
We were wrong, all cultures are not equal Brain10

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:04 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:
Haven't you just shot yourself in the foot? Those things happen in Africa you say, but not in England. Why's that then?

We tend to assume all human beings are going through the same history at once, but that's not the case at all.

Europe has a lot of advantages -- it's one of the top three most arable places in the world and has been for a long time; it hasn't seen a land war in about 70 years; it's still riding the waves of wealth that rolled in from colonizing other parts of the world.

If the British were to be conquered in a war, ruled by a dictator, and stuck into the middle of a 50-year drought, I doubt very seriously that the British would behave all that differently than people who are currently living in such conditions.

So you're saying that we shouldn't expect people who've lived under those conditions to act the same as ones who've led sheltered, protected lives? Well, isn't that the whole point of the article? Of course these people won't act the same, yet we expect them to be exactly the same and act exactly as civilized. It can't work because it's endemic in their genetic make-up to fight for food etc, survival of the fittest and all that...

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:14 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:
Haven't you just shot yourself in the foot? Those things happen in Africa you say, but not in England. Why's that then?

We tend to assume all human beings are going through the same history at once, but that's not the case at all.

Europe has a lot of advantages -- it's one of the top three most arable places in the world and has been for a long time; it hasn't seen a land war in about 70 years; it's still riding the waves of wealth that rolled in from colonizing other parts of the world.

If the British were to be conquered in a war, ruled by a dictator, and stuck into the middle of a 50-year drought, I doubt very seriously that the British would behave all that differently than people who are currently living in such conditions.
So you're saying that we shouldn't expect people who've lived under those conditions to act the same as ones who've led sheltered, protected lives? Well, isn't that the whole point of the article? Of course these people won't act the same, yet we expect them to be exactly the same and act exactly as civilized. It can't work because it's endemic in their genetic make-up to fight for food etc, survival of the fittest and all that...

What I'm saying is that any culture put into desperate situations will act in ways that cultures benefiting from more wealth will find appalling, in general. It's nothing about "being British" that might make the British population on whole behave better than the Sudanese population on whole. It is the benefit of wealth and security.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:17 pm

I've seen many many Africans come to "safe" England - what do they do - slaughter each other with machetes in the streets!

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:19 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:I've seen many many Africans come to "safe" England - what do they do - slaughter each other with machetes in the streets!

Come on, BA -- you know that the vast majority of them don't "slaughter each other with machetes in the streets."

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:20 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:
So you're saying that we shouldn't expect people who've lived under those conditions to act the same as ones who've led sheltered, protected lives? Well, isn't that the whole point of the article? Of course these people won't act the same, yet we expect them to be exactly the same and act exactly as civilized. It can't work because it's endemic in their genetic make-up to fight for food etc, survival of the fittest and all that...

What I'm saying is that any culture put into desperate situations will act in ways that cultures benefiting from more wealth will find appalling, in general. It's nothing about "being British" that might make the British population on whole behave better than the Sudanese population on whole. It is the benefit of wealth and security.

But that is being British, however you ant to dress it up. Being British by benefitting from the centuries of relative peace and tranquility that's part of our make-up, and cultures from more violent backgrounds just can't be expected to behave in the same way, as the article's trying to say.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:21 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:I've seen many many Africans come to "safe" England - what do they do - slaughter each other with machetes in the streets!

Come on, BA -- you know that the vast majority of them don't "slaughter each other with machetes in the streets."

Why do you say vast majority?

What makes you come up with these terms?

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:32 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:I've seen many many Africans come to "safe" England - what do they do - slaughter each other with machetes in the streets!

Come on, BA -- you know that the vast majority of them don't "slaughter each other with machetes in the streets."

Why do you say vast majority?

What makes you come up with these terms?

Common sense. Let's say a Sudanese man kills another with a machete in the streets of London, and let's say London has a Sudanese immigrant population of 10,000.

So there were 9,998 Sudanese people in London *not* taking part in a machete murder in the street when the murder was committed.

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:39 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:

Why do you say vast majority?

What makes you come up with these terms?

Common sense. Let's say a Sudanese man kills another with a machete in the streets of London, and let's say London has a Sudanese immigrant population of 10,000.

So there were 9,998 Sudanese people in London *not* taking part in a machete murder in the street when the murder was committed.

So why exactly are you after gun controls in America, when in 2012 there were "only" 9,100 gun homicides with a population of approximately 320,000,000?

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:43 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
BigAndy9 wrote:I've seen many many Africans come to "safe" England - what do they do - slaughter each other with machetes in the streets!

Come on, BA -- you know that the vast majority of them don't "slaughter each other with machetes in the streets."

Today's headlines:

'They lined the streets with the decapitated heads of police and soldiers': Iraqi refugee reveals the horrors of the jihadi takeover as Baghdad vows to fight back

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2655977/ISIS-militants-march-Baghdad-trademark-bullet-head-gets-way-control-north.html#ixzz34RpnPwLx

Can you see English soldiers doing this in this day and age? How can you say in all seriousness that our two cultures are morally equal?

by Guest Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:52 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Come on, BA -- you know that the vast majority of them don't "slaughter each other with machetes in the streets."
Today's headlines:

'They lined the streets with the decapitated heads of police and soldiers': Iraqi refugee reveals the horrors of the jihadi takeover as Baghdad vows to fight back

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2655977/ISIS-militants-march-Baghdad-trademark-bullet-head-gets-way-control-north.html#ixzz34RpnPwLx

Can you see English soldiers doing this in this day and age? How can you say in all seriousness that our two cultures are morally equal?

But bring them all here Tesstacious and within a week they'll be wearing bowler hats and stopping at 10:30 for tea and crumpets.

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