EU to bug every car in UK with tracker chips – and Ministers admit they are powerless to stop the Big Brother technology

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 1:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Every new car sold in Britain will have to have a ‘black box’ device fitted to track drivers’ movements from next year, under plans being imposed by the European Union.

Despite serious concerns about privacy and cost, UK ministers admit they are powerless to stop the Big Brother technology being forced on motorists and car makers.

The Government believes the gadget, designed to help emergency services find crashed vehicles, will add at least £100 to the cost of vehicles without providing significant safety improvements.

Officials also fear the scheme, known as eCall, could be used by police or insurance companies to monitor motorists’ every move.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2625244/EU-bug-car-UK-tracker-chips-Ministers-admit-powerless-stop-Big-Brother-technology.html#ixzz31PPG6kjI

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 6:48 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:choice...what choice...does it have an off switch...thats "choice"

The choice is to attempt save lives or not attempt to save lives, which do you choose?

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 6:56 pm

Off switch is a big hammer.....

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 7:00 pm

If the interest was really about saving lives, then they would have been improving safety of vehicles and passengers by imposing poll cages, better seat belts, and wearing of crash helmets and neck protectors.

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:If the interest was really about saving lives, then they would have been improving safety of vehicles and passengers by imposing poll cages, better seat belts, and wearing of crash helmets and neck protectors.

Again I am sure you can promote more safety, what has that got to do with helping prevent saving lives, where no matter if you protect the car people can still get badly injured from crashes?

by eddie Sun May 11, 2014 7:13 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Shady wrote:
HAR HAR HAR!!
I guessed that mate because he's gone into posting over drive.
He's made a right mug of himself this weekend, posting leads of rubbish, some of it beneath contempt to Eddie, has managed to piss every single poster off in one way or another, deleted his account in The early hours only to pop up a new this afternoon.
Very strange behaviour, but........... most amusing!

He's obsessive that is why he lives alone.
He is abusive to people and can't even debate politely.

He has a massive God complex.

by Irn Bru Sun May 11, 2014 7:16 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:If the interest was really about saving lives, then they would have been improving safety of vehicles and passengers by imposing poll cages, better seat belts, and wearing of crash helmets and neck protectors.

But they have been improving the safety of vehicles over the years haven't they?

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 7:20 pm

What has more safety got to do with saving lives?
Seriously?
My car, my life, my choice.
Don't want it. Don't want to pay for it. Don't want the EU.

by Irn Bru Sun May 11, 2014 7:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:What has more safety got to do with saving lives?
Seriously?
My car, my life, my choice.
Don't want it. Don't want to pay for it. Don't want the EU.

I really can't believe you said that Laughing

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:23 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:What has more safety got to do with saving lives?
Seriously?
My car, my life, my choice.
Don't want it. Don't want to pay for it. Don't want the EU.

I really can't believe you said that

Neither can I

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:24 pm

I'm someone who values my privacy and the thought of being tracked immediately raises my hackles. And then I thought, what if one of my family had gone out somewhere remote, been in an accident and was unconscious. It happens. I phone the hospitals and police and they don't know anything. Would I want them to have a tracker on their car so that could be found? Yes I bloody well would.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 7:24 pm

Air bags and seat belts can cause serious injuries.

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:25 pm

So Matti, imagine you swerve to try and avoid someone walking down a country lane, but still hit them, send them flying and you hit a tree and are knocked unconscious. Is it your choice to deny help to the person you run over by accident?

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:26 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Air bags and seat belts can abuse serious injuries.

Don't think you meant abuse did you.

Can I ask Tommy, do you have family that drive?

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Didge wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:If the interest was really about saving lives, then they would have been improving safety of vehicles and passengers by imposing poll cages, better seat belts, and wearing of crash helmets and neck protectors.
Again I am sure you can promote more safety, what has that got to do with helping prevent saving lives, where no matter if you protect the car people can still get badly injured from crashes?

More safety, what has that got to do with saving lives?

Yes I can't believe you said that either dodge!!!!!

What a twat!

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Didge wrote:
Again I am sure you can promote more safety, what has that got to do with helping prevent saving lives, where no matter if you protect the car people can still get badly injured from crashes?

More safety, what has that got to do with saving lives?

Yes I can't believe you said that either dodge!!!!!

What a twat!

Well you are trying to deny saving lives with claiming to have a choice over a system that ill attempt o help save lives, so clearly you are going against a having saftey

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Didge wrote:
Again I am sure you can promote more safety, what has that got to do with helping prevent saving lives, where no matter if you protect the car people can still get badly injured from crashes?

More safety, what has that got to do with saving lives?

Yes I can't believe you said that either dodge!!!!!

What a twat!

Tommy, I want every car to have every safety device possible. But even with safety devices, accidents still happen and people still get badly hurt, and if it is someone I love, I want them to be found as well. Wouldn't you want that for your family?

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 7:55 pm

Yes ant then they will use the gps to "track in real time"...so you will get the speeding ticket through the post, never a copper in sight...

then the "clever boys will learn how to "clone" other vehicles I.d's so you will get THEIR speeding ticket...but of course the system will be infallible...wont it....so it will take 10 years and a whistle blower to reveal that that indeed has happened
more misery for the motorist

then of course, instead of asking you haow many miles a year you do the insurers will buy this data, and then say oh but you dirve on high risk routes, so we can charge you more...

then of course advertisers can buy this data...and target you with even more junk .....

then of course the eco nazis will get this data...and you will recieve their derogatory/threatening junk mail because they can match your mileage to your petrol buying via your credit card....

then of course cloned vehicles will be used in crimes...and because "it doesnt happen" it will then be up to YOU to prove the police wrong...thus going against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" , shifting the onus onto the innocent to prove his innocence, rather than the state conclusively proving guilt...Hmmmmmm...the liberalist dream...hello Mr Hitler.....

IF they Really meant what they say AND it is a life saver.....it should only be activated by either/or a button on the dash...to summon help if YOU run down a pedestrian...OR by an air bag activating (which indicates a collision)

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 7:59 pm

I drive safely and carefully, have never run anyone over or had a crash in over 25 years of driving.
Most roads are busy nearly all of The time, with most accidents being witnessed by somebody be it another driver or pedestrian.
And Most people have mobile phones.
Response teams (ambulance/fire brigade) are already dispatched almost immediately after overwhelming majority of every crash.
With again overwhelming majority of deaths being from injuries so severe that ambulance teams wouldn't be able to do anything anyway even if arrived within a couple of minutes.
So overall I see this just as just a tracking and monitoring device sending all your movements back to a big brother dictatorship state and brought in under the guise of improved safety etc.....
If they were really serious about improving safety then roll cages, crash helmets and neck protection would already be compulsory.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 8:02 pm

Also, the other part of The plan is for the planned introduction of widespread road charging, pay per mile, all tracked!

by Irn Bru Sun May 11, 2014 8:09 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:Yes ant then they will use the gps to "track in real time"...so you will get the speeding ticket through the post, never a copper in sight...

then the "clever boys will learn how to "clone" other vehicles I.d's so you will get THEIR speeding ticket...but of course the system will be infallible...wont it....so it will take 10 years and a whistle blower to reveal that that indeed has happened
more misery for the motorist

then of course, instead of asking you haow many miles a year you do the insurers will buy this data, and then say oh but you dirve on high risk routes, so we can charge you more...

then of course advertisers can buy this data...and target you with even more junk .....

then of course the eco nazis will get this data...and you will recieve their derogatory/threatening junk mail because they can match your mileage to your petrol buying via your credit card....

then of course cloned vehicles will be used in crimes...and because "it doesnt happen" it will then be up to YOU to prove the police wrong...thus going against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" , shifting the onus onto the innocent to prove his innocence, rather than the state conclusively proving guilt...Hmmmmmm...the liberalist dream...hello Mr Hitler.....

IF they Really meant what they say AND it is a life saver.....it should only be activated by either/or a button on the dash...to summon help if YOU run down a pedestrian...OR by an air bag activating (which indicates a collision)

I understand that it is how will be done.

Much of the rest of the stuff can already be done anyway withoit the need for a black box.

by Irn Bru Sun May 11, 2014 8:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Also, the other part of The plan is for the planned introduction of widespread road charging, pay per mile, all tracked!

Is that an EU thing Tommy?

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 8:11 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:Yes ant then they will use the gps to "track in real time"...so you will get the speeding ticket through the post, never a copper in sight...
You should not be speeding anyway, that in itself is a danger, so this will help people drive more safely

then the "clever boys will learn how to "clone" other vehicles I.d's so you will get THEIR speeding ticket...but of course the system will be infallible...wont it....so it will take 10 years and a whistle blower to reveal that that indeed has happened
more misery for the motorist
I doubt it will be infallible, but you are going off what the intent of this has been designed for, helping to save lives, nothing comes without other means it can be adapted for, but you have to weigh up the balance here and on balance helping to save lives will always outweigh all other claims

then of course, instead of asking you haow many miles a year you do the insurers will buy this data, and then say oh but you dirve on high risk routes, so we can charge you more...
So you are saying honesty is wrong?

then of course advertisers can buy this data...and target you with even more junk .....
Really, that is an assumption and again does that outweigh its purpose, no

then of course the eco nazis will get this data...and you will recieve their derogatory/threatening junk mail because they can match your mileage to your petrol buying via your credit card....
More assumptions

then of course cloned vehicles will be used in crimes...and because "it doesnt happen" it will then be up to YOU to prove the police wrong...thus going against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" , shifting the onus onto the innocent to prove his innocence, rather than the state conclusively proving guilt...Hmmmmmm...the liberalist dream...hello Mr Hitler.....

IF they Really meant what they say AND it is a life saver.....it should only be activated by either/or a button on the dash...to summon help if YOU run down a pedestrian...OR by an air bag activating (which indicates a collision)

How can you press a button if you are all injured as many people are trapped and unconscious?
Seriously have you seen many bad crashes?
If something is there to help save lives it outweighs all your negative claims, because as seen most are just assumptions anyway.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 8:20 pm

The road charging is the plan.

Bit by bit, little by little......'progressively'!!!!

The best thing for saving lives would be to improve the safety of car and passenger directly, not spend billions on a system that just dials the ambulance a tiny bit quicker.....

If they had proposed roll cages, stronger cockpits of cars, crash helmets and neck protection, and better racing style seat belts that I might believe their intentions were about saving lives.

But no, this IS about tracking in big brother style and then imposing road charges, pay as you go by mile etc.

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 8:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The road charging is the plan.

Bit by bit, little by little......'progressively'!!!!

The best thing for saving lives would be to improve the safety of car and passenger directly, not spend billions on a system that just dials the ambulance a tiny bit quicker.....

If they had proposed roll cages, stronger cockpits of cars, crash helmets and neck protection, and better racing style seat belts that I might believe their intentions were about saving lives.

But no, this IS about tracking in big brother style and then imposing road charges, pay as you go by mile etc.

More assumptions backed up no evidence other than a fear

Again saving lives will always outweigh any negative argument

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 8:25 pm

Didge wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:Yes ant then they will use the gps to "track in real time"...so you will get the speeding ticket through the post, never a copper in sight...
You should not be speeding anyway, that in itself is a danger, so this will help people drive more safely

actually it wont...it will be a "cash cow"...rarely does speed...in and of itself CAUSE an accident, the usual cause is inappropriate speed

then the "clever boys will learn how to "clone" other vehicles I.d's so you will get THEIR speeding ticket...but of course the system will be infallible...wont it....so it will take 10 years and a whistle blower to reveal that that indeed has happened
more misery for the motorist
I doubt it will be infallible, but you are going off what the intent of this has been designed for, helping to save lives, nothing comes without other means it can be adapted for, but you have to weigh up the balance here and on balance helping to save lives will always outweigh all other claims
Not really didge....IF THAT was the case then a point I made in a different thread WOULD have happened....and cars would be banned....(since the inconvenience of not having them would be outweighed by the deaths and injury they cause)

then of course, instead of asking you haow many miles a year you do the insurers will buy this data, and then say oh but you dirve on high risk routes, so we can charge you more...
So you are saying honesty is wrong?

Since insurers are about as honest as any other money grabbing scam... AND the concept of people driving on high risk routes AT THE MOMENT is NOT considered...it will just be a way to make more money.....nothing to do with honesty

then of course advertisers can buy this data...and target you with even more junk .....
Really, that is an assumption and again does that outweigh its purpose, no

then of course the eco nazis will get this data...and you will recieve their derogatory/threatening junk mail because they can match your mileage to your petrol buying via your credit card....
More assumptions

then of course cloned vehicles will be used in crimes...and because "it doesnt happen" it will then be up to YOU to prove the police wrong...thus going against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" , shifting the onus onto the innocent to prove his innocence, rather than the state conclusively proving guilt...Hmmmmmm...the liberalist dream...hello Mr Hitler.....

IF they Really meant what they say AND it is a life saver.....it should only be activated by either/or a button on the dash...to summon help if YOU run down a pedestrian...OR by an air bag activating (which indicates a collision)

How can you press a button if you are all injured as many people are trapped and unconscious?
Seriously have you seen many bad crashes?
If something is there to help save lives it outweighs all your negative claims, because as seen most are just assumptions anyway.

agreed they are assumptions, but well placed ones, since we know that the whole damn "motoring" experience" is designed to grab as much cash as possible...

by Guest Sun May 11, 2014 8:30 pm

Point one, irrelevant it still is wrong to speed and it still creates accidents, you are advocating breaking the law.

Point 2 agreed, even more so on your hitting an animal and what to do choice. Again we have cars and to not have them would cost untold loss in jobs would it not, but agree it would be better without though here there is no case not to have them

Point 3 Unless we change the laws on insurance what can you do? I have no doubt they are money grabbers, but the law needs to change to protect people from those who do exploit it where again here you are basing an assumption.

Again this is being introduced as a main purpose for helping to save lives, that is its foremost function

Right have to go
Later

by eddie Sun May 11, 2014 8:39 pm

Wow. A polite debate without him calling anyone stupid, or saying that they have "poor opinions" and that he is laughing at their stupidity.....or without him being patronising and condescending or saying people are "lying"
Wow.

If he debates like this all the time he may pull some respect back.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 11, 2014 9:29 pm

No, I've already had the 'poor assumptions based on no evidence' line a couple of times here.....

There is no debate with dodge, he just keeps waffling his leftie lines and dismisses anything else that doesn't fit.

by Fred Mon May 12, 2014 4:03 pm

Irn Bru has become a cap doffer to the EU as labour are now the in party and avoid referendum party. Irn Bru does as Big brother tell him.

The left are always more comfortable with big brother we on the right are less sanguine.

Fact when these devices are fitted big brother can trace your every move. In fairness I must point out that cell phones achieve the same result however it is my choice to carry one.

This initiative worries me less Irn Bru than many other EU initiatives but be in no doubt anyone with a modicum of common sense KNOWs the EU is anything but democratic and trustworthy.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 4:06 pm

Alright said Fred wrote:Irn Bru has become a cap doffer to the EU as labour are now the in party and avoid referendum party. Irn Bru does as Big brother tell him.

The left are always more comfortable with big brother we on the right are less sanguine.

Fact when these devices are fitted big brother can trace your every move. In fairness I must point out that cell phones achieve the same result however it is my choice to carry one.

This initiative worries me less Irn Bru than many other EU initiatives but be in no doubt anyone with a modicum of common sense KNOWs the EU is anything but democratic and trustworthy.

Again an assumption, the main design is for saving attempting to save lives, people sadly though always see the negative and not the positive with something.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 4:14 pm

All three partys lib lab con are pro EU and avoid referendum partys.

This IS about tracking your movements and ultimately about charging pay as you drive taxes on roads.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 4:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:All three partys lib lab con are pro EU and avoid referendum partys.

This IS about tracking your movements and ultimately about charging pay as you drive taxes on roads.

No evidence for your claim except an assumption,a fear based assumption at that.

The majority of the country do not want to leave the EU around 40%, 30% want to negotiate and only vote to leave if this is unsuccessful, I am in that camp..

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 4:31 pm

What is planned fro this mythical renegotiation?

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 4:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:What is planned fro this mythical renegotiation?

You are saying it is a myth?

Really

It is easy to find yourself if you care to look

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/10700644/David-Cameron-the-EU-is-not-working-and-we-will-change-it.html

Now of course you will say you do not believe him, that is your choice, but others will disagree and that is there choice

by gerber Mon May 12, 2014 4:42 pm

eddie wrote:Wow. A polite debate without him calling anyone stupid, or saying that they have "poor opinions" and that he is laughing at their stupidity.....or without him being patronising and condescending or saying people are "lying"
Wow.

If he debates like this all the time he may pull some respect back.

And only later, as opposed to laters cheers

It is not the real Didge... Smile

by Fred Mon May 12, 2014 4:44 pm

Didge you defend the indefensible as do many others. The EU has been and is extremely undemocratic. You lose face by suggesting it isn't. I expect it from Irn Bru but a so called right wing apologist no.

Cameron knows he can't achieve much it is only a matter of time before we can all see that.

The EU is fundamentally flawed and constructed on fraudulent principles.

We were told I was a Common Market, it wasn't.

The Euro was supposed to be for countries meeting a rigorous se of financial criteria that were deliberately ignored and look were that got them.

They (the unelected commissioners) constantly seek new powers but are adamant referenda shouldn't be given because they know they wouldn't get the assent of the people.

You defend the indefensible Didge you are therefore a fraud.

Incidentally none of the above examples are "MY Opinion" they are facts I could give you dozens more. The EU is as bent as a nine bob note.

by Fred Mon May 12, 2014 4:45 pm

Let me add this on topic observation if the eU has moved the goal posts many times on other matters why not on this in car spy?? They have form and you apologist have form for being idiots.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 4:47 pm

What is planned for this renegotiation?
Free movement of people is a fundamental part of The EU and is non negotiable.
While we are in The EU, we have no control on our borders or most of our laws.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 4:48 pm

Alright said Fred wrote:Didge you defend the indefensible as do many others. The EU has been and is extremely undemocratic. You lose face by suggesting it isn't. I expect it from Irn Bru but a so called right wing apologist no.

Cameron knows he can't achieve much it is only a matter of time before we can all see that.

The EU is fundamentally flawed and constructed on fraudulent principles.

We were told I was a Common Market, it wasn't.

The Euro was supposed to be for countries meeting a rigorous se of financial criteria that were deliberately ignored and look were that got them.

They (the unelected commissioners) constantly seek new powers but are adamant referenda shouldn't be given because they know they wouldn't get the assent of the people.

You defend the indefensible Didge you are therefore a fraud.

Incidentally none of the above examples are "MY Opinion" they are facts I could give you dozens more. The EU is as bent as a nine bob note.

I have never denied the EU has flaws, so how is that defending them, I am all for negotiation as most Tories are, unless you are not?
So all your points have merit about the EU, it does not mean we should just leave without trying to fix it, as leaving it could create far worse problems of which it would in having to negotiate new trade deals of which we would have to abide by EU rulings to trade with them anyway.
So I am not defending anything and you made your argument personal and quite childish and detracting from the point of negotiation and from this topic, which is a measure to help save lives and if you think saving lives is indefensible, then I have to say you place your fears and dislikes above what is the best thing to do for people in helping save lives .

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 4:51 pm

Waffle.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 4:53 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Waffle.

Yes your answer was and to be honest you can never counter my points just as Victor stated, you have so much to learn.

On that I wish you luck

by Fred Mon May 12, 2014 4:56 pm

Didge is waffle and tripe personified he talks complete bollocks. You cannot polish a turd to use a crude analogy. The EU is fundamentally flawed. Successive govts in member states ave colluded to deny their electorates a say.

We agreed to join a Common Market not a Pan European super state. That you can't see that has whats happened shows what a dick you are didge.

You make a great lefty Didge.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 4:59 pm

Alright said Fred wrote:Didge is waffle and tripe personified he talks complete bollocks. You cannot polish a turd to use a crude analogy. The EU is fundamentally flawed. Successive govts in member states ave colluded to deny their electorates a say.

We agreed to join a Common Market not a Pan European super state. That you can't see that has whats happened shows what a dick you are didge.

You make a great lefty Didge.

Dear me, so your whole answer was about me again, let me know when you can actually tackle my points, as the play pen is open if you want to act like a child, but do hurry it closes at 6:30.
You must think Cameron is a lefty then Drinky?

So I shall post my points again for you to try again

I have never denied the EU has flaws, so how is that defending them, I am all for negotiation as most Tories are, unless you are not?
So all your points have merit about the EU, it does not mean we should just leave without trying to fix it, as leaving it could create far worse problems of which it would in having to negotiate new trade deals of which we would have to abide by EU rulings to trade with them anyway.
So I am not defending anything and you made your argument personal and quite childish and detracting from the point of negotiation and from this topic, which is a measure to help save lives and if you think saving lives is indefensible, then I have to say you place your fears and dislikes above what is the best thing to do for people in helping save lives

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 5:01 pm

Still waiting for an answer to my question.....
What is planned for this so called 'renegotiation'?

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 5:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Still waiting for an answer to my question.....
What is planned for this so called 'renegotiation'?

Gave you a link, read it.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 5:03 pm

:: New controls to stop “vast migrations” across the continent when new countries join the EU;
:: Tighter immigration rules to ensure that migrants come to Britain to work, not as tourists planning to cash in on “free benefits”;
:: A new power for groups of national parliaments to work together to block unwanted European legislation;
:: Businesses to be freed from red tape and “excessive interference” from Brussels, and given access to new markets through “turbo charging” free trade deals with America and Asia;
:: British police and courts liberated from “unnecessary interference” from the European Court of Human Rights;
:: More power “flowing away” from Brussels to Britain and other member states, rather than increasingly centralising laws in the EU;
:: Abolishing the principle of “ever closer union” among EU member states, which Mr Cameron says is “not right for Britain”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/10700610/David-Cameron-my-seven-targets-for-a-new-EU.html

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 5:09 pm

Of which none is achievable.

Free movement is a fundamental part of EU and non negotiable.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 5:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Of which none is achievable.

Free movement is a fundamental part of EU and non negotiable.

Will shall see and some people would like to at least try first.

Many countries are starting to agree with Britain as well.

Either way everyone will get their chance to vote in a referendum

by Tommy Monk Mon May 12, 2014 5:17 pm

The peoples of European countries are increasingly making their voices heard that they are against the EU.

This renegotiation is just a smoke screen and will achieve nothing while the EU just carries on business as usual.

by Guest Mon May 12, 2014 5:34 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The peoples of European countries are increasingly making their voices heard that they are against the EU.

This renegotiation is just a smoke screen and will achieve nothing while the EU just carries on business as usual.

Smoke screen's right. Merkel's already said there will be no renegotiation of terms for the UK. Cameron's just lying to the public, as usual.

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