No free NHS abortions in England for women from Northern Ireland, court rules

First topic message reminder :

Mr Justice King upheld the current laws that mean women who come over to bypass stricter rules on terminations must pay for the procedure.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/no-free-nhs-abortions-in-england-for-women-from-northern-ireland-court-rules-9337658.html

It must be me. NI are still part if the UK.

A government report found that immigration officials at one airport stopped more than 300 such mothers-to-be over two years.
Most of the women had to be admitted and allowed to give birth on the NHS, the report found, because their pregnancies were too advanced for them to fly home.
Airlines typically do not carry women more than 36 weeks pregnant. However, the women boarded flights in their home countries with forged doctors’ notes concealing the length of their pregnancies.
The disclosure will heighten growing fears over “health tourism”, which sees foreigners coming to Britain for free NHS care.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10540881/The-300-maternity-tourists.html

Maybe it is because NI understand and speak English. Makes them an easy target.

Sounds good to me   

gerber wrote:

eddie wrote:

Not to mention failed contraception!
Should women be forced to have babies they desperately tried to avoid having?????

Seems so.....
maybe the answer is all females buy rabbits and the guys can go else where    

    

Although rabbits can't give you a cuddle lol

Sassy wrote:

gerber wrote:

Seems so.....
maybe the answer is all females buy rabbits and the guys can go else where    

    

Although rabbits can't give you a cuddle lol

Nor do they snore  ::happ:: 

gerber wrote:

Sassy wrote:

    

Although rabbits can't give you a cuddle lol

Nor do they snore   ::happ:: 

Or talk in their sleep!   

Sassy wrote:

gerber wrote:

Nor do they snore   ::happ:: 

Or talk in their sleep!   

No but they might buzz occasionally......

gerber wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Or talk in their sleep!   

No but they might buzz occasionally......

yes, yes, yes, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES    

Sassy wrote:

gerber wrote:

No but they might buzz occasionally......

yes, yes, yes, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES    

Give you that one..................

Night night.

 :asbluras: 

gerber wrote:

Sassy wrote:

yes, yes, yes, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES, YES    

Give you that one..................

Night night.

 :asbluras: 

Night Gerbs xxx

I see that the general consensus on this forum is that abortion on demand is fine, and that anyone who disagrees must be wrong.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

If it's so important to them that they don't get pregnant, perhaps they should use two forms of contraception. They will have been advised that no contraceptive is 100% effective.

Lol are you a nutcase Raggs? Should we use three in case two of them dont work?
How about four, or five???

Come on, be serious!

If you weren't so rude, I might have answered that.

Raggamuffin wrote:I see that the general consensus on this forum is that abortion on demand is fine, and that anyone who disagrees must be wrong.

Would you rather women were forced to have children they dont want?
What happens to those unwanted newborns? And the cost to the state/taxpayer? Better those unwanted pregnancies are terminated.

I am going to be controversial but if they are 36 weeks pregnant they should not be allowed an abortion. that is too far advanced.

Morally over 26 weeks the survival rate is 80% when removed from the womb including in situations when the mother has died.

weeks of Gestation 21 and less 22 23 24 25 26 27 30 34
Chance of survival[ 0% 0-10%10-35% 40-70% 50-80% 80-90% >90% >95% >98%

3rd trimester is abortions are wrong because the baby could be pulled out of the womb and have a decent chance of survival. 1st trimester is fine, the zygote lacks a nervous systems so even if it is a live it does not feel pain.

gerber wrote:

Sassy wrote:

According to this Judge, yes.   Stupid man!

We seem to have a mule within the thread.................  cannot believe what I have been reading.  Maybe needs to meet with desperate females of any age without support, money and no hope.....and as been well documented never had meetings with females who have been raped. Never mind being of the knowledge that the child to be born is so deformed a life is not sustainable.........Nor being of the mind that to continue with the pregnacy will cost the Mother her life.

Sassy I am 100% behind you and your posts are excellent, erudite and informative as usual.

Says the mule who took the piss out of a grieving man.

Raggamuffin wrote:

gerber wrote:

We seem to have a mule within the thread.................  cannot believe what I have been reading.  Maybe needs to meet with desperate females of any age without support, money and no hope.....and as been well documented never had meetings with females who have been raped. Never mind being of the knowledge that the child to be born is so deformed a life is not sustainable.........Nor being of the mind that to continue with the pregnacy will cost the Mother her life.

Sassy I am 100% behind you and your posts are excellent, erudite and informative as usual.

Says the mule who took the piss out of a grieving man.

Pardon ?

I'm not as familiar with the abortion debate elsewhere as I am in the states -- where it's basically a cold war -- but I will say, there does seem to be a lot of willful misunderstanding and demonizing on both sides.

Most people who are against abortion come at that opinion from a genuinely good place in their hearts, not wanting to see potential lives terminated.

And most women who seek abortions aren't callous monsters who just don't want to be inconvenienced, but truly desperate people -- and they deserve to be viewed in three dimensions instead of being treated as sluts who forgot about birth control, for Christ's sake.

Just my 2 cents.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm not as familiar with the abortion debate elsewhere as I am in the states -- where it's basically a cold war -- but I will say, there does seem to be a lot of willful misunderstanding and demonizing on both sides.

Most people who are against abortion come at that opinion from a genuinely good place in their hearts, not wanting to see potential lives terminated.

And most women who seek abortions aren't callous monsters who just don't want to be inconvenienced, but truly desperate people -- and they deserve to be viewed in three dimensions instead of being treated as sluts who forgot about birth control, for Christ's sake.

Just my 2 cents.

Well said Ben.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Lol are you a nutcase Raggs? Should we use three in case two of them dont work?
How about four, or five???

Come on, be serious!

If you weren't so rude, I might have answered that.

Raggs, calling you a nutcase was a term of affection - used with humour.
Didn't mean to offend so I apologise.

eddie wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm not as familiar with the abortion debate elsewhere as I am in the states -- where it's basically a cold war -- but I will say, there does seem to be a lot of willful misunderstanding and demonizing on both sides.

Most people who are against abortion come at that opinion from a genuinely good place in their hearts, not wanting to see potential lives terminated.

And most women who seek abortions aren't callous monsters who just don't want to be inconvenienced, but truly desperate people -- and they deserve to be viewed in three dimensions instead of being treated as sluts who forgot about birth control, for Christ's sake.

Just my 2 cents.

Well said Ben.

Muchas gracias, amiga

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

If you weren't so rude, I might have answered that.

Raggs, calling you a nutcase was a term of affection - used with humour.
Didn't mean to offend so I apologise.

Oh, OK. It's just that some people on this thread seem to think that I'm evil for saying that I don't approve of lifestyle abortions.

Anyway, one can use more than one method if it's essential that one doesn't become pregnant - eg, the pill and condoms.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

If you weren't so rude, I might have answered that.

Raggs, calling you a nutcase was a term of affection - used with humour.
Didn't mean to offend so I apologise.

Oh, OK. It's just that some people on this thread seem to think that I'm evil for saying that I don't approve of lifestyle abortions.

Anyway, one can use more than one method if it's essential that one doesn't become pregnant - eg, the pill and condoms.

What is a "lifestyle abortion"?

Is that where people you're not inclined to like in the first place have an abortion, so you call them callous monsters instead of trying to see the legitimate reasons they might seek an abortion?

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Raggs, calling you a nutcase was a term of affection - used with humour.
Didn't mean to offend so I apologise.

Oh, OK. It's just that some people on this thread seem to think that I'm evil for saying that I don't approve of lifestyle abortions.

Anyway, one can use more than one method if it's essential that one doesn't become pregnant - eg, the pill and condoms.

And what if both of those fail?

Do you think it's fair to make a woman have a baby even though she's used contraception to prevent having one?
It's not fair on her, or the baby.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh, OK. It's just that some people on this thread seem to think that I'm evil for saying that I don't approve of lifestyle abortions.

Anyway, one can use more than one method if it's essential that one doesn't become pregnant - eg, the pill and condoms.

What is a "lifestyle abortion"?

Is that where people you're not inclined to like in the first place have an abortion, so you call them callous monsters instead of trying to see the legitimate reasons they might seek an abortion?

I haven't actually called anyone a callous monster - that was something you made up.

A lifestyle abortion would include having one because the woman wants a baby in a year or two, not now. It would include women who want one because they want to go travelling. It would include women who want one because they're in line for promotion at work and a baby would get in the way.

There was a thing in the news a while back about women having abortions because the gender of the baby was wrong. I'm not sure if they had them on the NHS, but it was all condoned by the doctors involved, and I don't think anything was done about it.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh, OK. It's just that some people on this thread seem to think that I'm evil for saying that I don't approve of lifestyle abortions.

Anyway, one can use more than one method if it's essential that one doesn't become pregnant - eg, the pill and condoms.

And what if both of those fail?

Do you think it's fair to make a woman have a baby even though she's used contraception to prevent having one?
It's not fair on her, or the baby.

Oh come on - there's no reason for women to become pregnant by accident in this day and age.

If the women is so against it and doesn't trust contraception, maybe she should keep her legs closed.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

And what if both of those fail?

Do you think it's fair to make a woman have a baby even though she's used contraception to prevent having one?
It's not fair on her, or the baby.

Oh come on - there's no reason for women to become pregnant by accident in this day and age.

If the women is so against it and doesn't trust contraception, maybe she should keep her legs closed.

Raggs!! No sex in case we get pregnant??? Really???
So if contraception fails the woman, man and baby must suffer? Is that better than an abortion?

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh come on - there's no reason for women to become pregnant by accident in this day and age.

If the women is so against it and doesn't trust contraception, maybe she should keep her legs closed.

Raggs!! No sex in case we get pregnant???  Really???
So if contraception fails the woman, man and baby must suffer? Is that better than an abortion?

If it's that important, why not?

Come on now - if they use two methods, it's not likely that they would both fail.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh, OK. It's just that some people on this thread seem to think that I'm evil for saying that I don't approve of lifestyle abortions.

Anyway, one can use more than one method if it's essential that one doesn't become pregnant - eg, the pill and condoms.

What is a "lifestyle abortion"?

Is that where people you're not inclined to like in the first place have an abortion, so you call them callous monsters instead of trying to see the legitimate reasons they might seek an abortion?

I haven't actually called anyone a callous monster - that was something you made up.

A lifestyle abortion would include having one because the woman wants a baby in a year or two, not now. It would include women who want one because they want to go travelling. It would include women who want one because they're in line for promotion at work and a baby would get in the way.

There was a thing in the news a while back about women having abortions because the gender of the baby was wrong. I'm not sure if they had them on the NHS, but it was all condoned by the doctors involved, and I don't think anything was done about it.

I hate the news media. We tell people the most unusual things going on, and people assume it's the way of the world.

The media is a spotlight, not a window. I will probably preach this to my dying day. Dog bites man is not news; man bites dog is news.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh come on - there's no reason for women to become pregnant by accident in this day and age.

If the women is so against it and doesn't trust contraception, maybe she should keep her legs closed.

Raggs!! No sex in case we get pregnant???  Really???
So if contraception fails the woman, man and baby must suffer? Is that better than an abortion?

To be fair it seems clear to me that Ragga is a Catholic or at least arguing the Catholic view point Eddie, though her abuse to others here is unwarranted especially to Gerber who did not deserve any of it and was bang out of order to her .
I understand the Catholic view point on this and very much disagree with it, but she needs to respect the views of others as well, she should just be open this is her view.
To them it is a great sin with abortion/

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I haven't actually called anyone a callous monster - that was something you made up.

A lifestyle abortion would include having one because the woman wants a baby in a year or two, not now. It would include women who want one because they want to go travelling. It would include women who want one because they're in line for promotion at work and a baby would get in the way.

There was a thing in the news a while back about women having abortions because the gender of the baby was wrong. I'm not sure if they had them on the NHS, but it was all condoned by the doctors involved, and I don't think anything was done about it.

I hate the news media. We tell people the most unusual things going on, and people assume it's the way of the world.

The media is a spotlight, not a window. I will probably preach this to my dying day. Dog bites man is not news; man bites dog is news.

Oh it happened alright. There were recordings of the doctors involved. The Government said they'd look into it, but I haven't seen any more about it.

Anyway, I've read that they're probably going to extend abortion in NI to women who have been raped or if the baby is seriously deformed.

Didge wrote:

eddie wrote:

Raggs!! No sex in case we get pregnant???  Really???
So if contraception fails the woman, man and baby must suffer? Is that better than an abortion?

To be fair it seems clear to me that Ragga is a Catholic or at least arguing the Catholic view point Eddie, though her abuse to others here is unwarranted especially to Gerber who did not deserve any of it and was bang out of order to her .
I understand the Catholic view point on this and very much disagree with it, but she needs to respect the views of others as well, she should just be open this is her view.
To them it is a great sin with abortion/

Fair enough but she said that contraception was only 99% accurate but it's the best we have. If a child is conceived even though every effort has been made then it's hardly the man/woman's fault.

In the case of rape too, is it fair to make her keep the baby?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I haven't actually called anyone a callous monster - that was something you made up.

A lifestyle abortion would include having one because the woman wants a baby in a year or two, not now. It would include women who want one because they want to go travelling. It would include women who want one because they're in line for promotion at work and a baby would get in the way.

There was a thing in the news a while back about women having abortions because the gender of the baby was wrong. I'm not sure if they had them on the NHS, but it was all condoned by the doctors involved, and I don't think anything was done about it.

I hate the news media. We tell people the most unusual things going on, and people assume it's the way of the world.

The media is a spotlight, not a window. I will probably preach this to my dying day. Dog bites man is not news; man bites dog is news.

Oh it happened alright. There were recordings of the doctors involved. The Government said they'd look into it, but I haven't seen any more about it.

I'm not saying it didn't happen; I'm saying that the media spotlights the unusual, exceptional, extraordinary and ... non-run-of-the-mill. You shouldn't use news reports to judge how people act in everyday life.

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:


To be fair it seems clear to me that Ragga is a Catholic or at least arguing the Catholic view point Eddie, though her abuse to others here is unwarranted especially to Gerber who did not deserve any of it and was bang out of order to her .
I understand the Catholic view point on this and very much disagree with it, but she needs to respect the views of others as well, she should just be open this is her view.
To them it is a great sin with abortion/

Fair enough but she said that contraception was only 99% accurate but it's the best we have. If a child is conceived even though every effort has been made then it's hardly the man/woman's fault.

In the case of rape too, is it fair to make her keep the baby?

Oh, you quoted Didge.

I am not a Catholic. Try not to automatically believe what he says.

It was Gerbil who called me a "mule", whatever that means.

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:


To be fair it seems clear to me that Ragga is a Catholic or at least arguing the Catholic view point Eddie, though her abuse to others here is unwarranted especially to Gerber who did not deserve any of it and was bang out of order to her .
I understand the Catholic view point on this and very much disagree with it, but she needs to respect the views of others as well, she should just be open this is her view.
To them it is a great sin with abortion/

Fair enough but she said that contraception was only 99% accurate but it's the best we have. If a child is conceived even though every effort has been made then it's hardly the man/woman's fault.

In the case of rape too, is it fair to make her keep the baby?

Eddie I agree with you 100%, not arguing against you just pointing out why as seen with my own mother how some Catholics view abortion, they get very angry, trust me on that, just giving you the heads up is all.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh it happened alright. There were recordings of the doctors involved. The Government said they'd look into it, but I haven't seen any more about it.

I'm not saying it didn't happen; I'm saying that the media spotlights the unusual, exceptional, extraordinary and ... non-run-of-the-mill. You shouldn't use news reports to judge how people act in everyday life.

What? We have laws here, laws about abortion, and IMO these doctors were breaking the law. I think any doctor who performs a lifestyle abortion is breaking the law, and yet nothing is done. It's more prevalent than you're implying.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Fair enough but she said that contraception was only 99% accurate but it's the best we have. If a child is conceived even though every effort has been made then it's hardly the man/woman's fault.

In the case of rape too, is it fair to make her keep the baby?

Oh, you quoted Didge.

I am not a Catholic. Try not to automatically believe what he says.

It was Gerbil who called me a "mule", whatever that means.

Your views are very much Catholicism based, I reckon you are which by this I am not knocking you being as the majority of my family are.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh it happened alright. There were recordings of the doctors involved. The Government said they'd look into it, but I haven't seen any more about it.

I'm not saying it didn't happen; I'm saying that the media spotlights the unusual, exceptional, extraordinary and ... non-run-of-the-mill. You shouldn't use news reports to judge how people act in everyday life.

What? We have laws here, laws about abortion, and IMO these doctors were breaking the law. I think any doctor who performs a lifestyle abortion is breaking the law, and yet nothing is done. It's more prevalent than you're implying.

Okay. People are just running around having random "lifestyle abortions" because that's what you feel and what you want to believe. Fine. I'm done trying to speak to you logically. You believe whatever the hell you want, it doesn't make it true.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What? We have laws here, laws about abortion, and IMO these doctors were breaking the law. I think any doctor who performs a lifestyle abortion is breaking the law, and yet nothing is done. It's more prevalent than you're implying.

Okay. People are just running around having random "lifestyle abortions" because that's what you feel and what you want to believe. Fine. I'm done trying to speak to you logically. You believe whatever the hell you want, it doesn't make it true.

It is true. There's a clinic in London which refused to perform lifestyle abortions any more. I know women who have had such abortions.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh, you quoted Didge.

I am not a Catholic. Try not to automatically believe what he says.

It was Gerbil who called me a "mule", whatever that means.

Your views are very much Catholicism based, I reckon you are which by this I am not knocking you being as the majority of my family are.

Well she says she isn't?

I don't get why she doesn't get that if you fall pregnant even when taking active measures not to, then surely abortion is the fairest way for everyone, especially the unborn child?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

What? We have laws here, laws about abortion, and IMO these doctors were breaking the law. I think any doctor who performs a lifestyle abortion is breaking the law, and yet nothing is done. It's more prevalent than you're implying.

Okay. People are just running around having random "lifestyle abortions" because that's what you feel and what you want to believe. Fine. I'm done trying to speak to you logically. You believe whatever the hell you want, it doesn't make it true.

It is true. There's a clinic in London which refused to perform lifestyle abortions any more. I know women who have had such abortions.

So because you know some people, it's happening a million times a day. Great, congrats on those well-honed cognitive abilities of yours, and may they serve you well

eddie wrote:

Didge wrote:


Your views are very much Catholicism based, I reckon you are which by this I am not knocking you being as the majority of my family are.

Well she says she isn't?

I don't get why she doesn't get that if you fall pregnant even when taking active measures not to, then surely abortion is the fairest way for everyone, especially the unborn child?

If my views were based on Catholicism, I would hardly be recommending contraception.

Didge is just a bigot who thinks that religion comes into everything.

Why do you not get it? What's wrong with adoption? There are loads of people in this country who would live to adopt a baby.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It is true. There's a clinic in London which refused to perform lifestyle abortions any more. I know women who have had such abortions.

So because you know some people, it's happening a million times a day. Great, congrats on those well-honed cognitive abilities of yours, and may they serve you well

Where did I say it's happening a million times a day? You really need to stop making things up - you're beginning to sound like Didge.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It is true. There's a clinic in London which refused to perform lifestyle abortions any more. I know women who have had such abortions.

So because you know some people, it's happening a million times a day. Great, congrats on those well-honed cognitive abilities of yours, and may they serve you well

Where did I say it's happening a million times a day? You really need to stop making things up - you're beginning to sound like Didge.

I'm sorry if I took your meaning wrong, but that's what it sounded to me like you were saying.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Well she says she isn't?

I don't get why she doesn't get that if you fall pregnant even when taking active measures not to, then surely abortion is the fairest way for everyone, especially the unborn child?

If my views were based on Catholicism, I would hardly be recommending contraception.

Didge is just a bigot who thinks that religion comes into everything.

Why do you not get it? What's wrong with adoption? There are loads of people in this country who would live to adopt a baby.

Firstly didge isn't a bigot, and he was actually trying to defend toy Raggs.

Perhaps people don't want to be pregnant and go through having a baby and then giving it up all Because their contraceptive pill failed or the condom split, or both!!!!

Why don't you get it? An unwanted baby is worse than an abortion and has far-reaching effects on all concerned!!!

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Where did I say it's happening a million times a day? You really need to stop making things up - you're beginning to sound like Didge.

I'm sorry if I took your meaning wrong, but that's what it sounded to me like you were saying.

What I'm saying is that the law is not being enforced IMO. Some people are complaining about the abortion law in NI, which is fair enough. I'm not in disagreement with the abortion law here in England, but I think it's abused too much.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

If my views were based on Catholicism, I would hardly be recommending contraception.

Didge is just a bigot who thinks that religion comes into everything.

Why do you not get it? What's wrong with adoption? There are loads of people in this country who would live to adopt a baby.

Firstly didge isn't a bigot, and he was actually trying to defend toy Raggs.

Perhaps people don't want to be pregnant and go through having a baby and then giving it up all Because  their contraceptive pill failed or the condom split, or both!!!!

Why don't you get it? An unwanted baby is worse than an abortion and has far-reaching effects on all concerned!!!

The day that Didge defends me will be a very strange day indeed.

I don't get why you think that abortion is such a trivial thing, but hey ho ...

My 2 cents

Life style abortions do happen. (sorry Ben but i think they are more common than people like to admit, maybe not in the USA where there is more stigma attached)

Personally if they are done within the first 13 weeks i think it is fine (but i would prefer it not to happen to my own).
from 14 to 26 weeks is debatable if it is still ethical , and in most circumstances you would think the woman would have made the decision before now. The Big But however is for malformed fetuses is it kinder to just end it now than a life of suffering  ::dunno:: 
After 27 weeks the Baby has reasonable chance of survival with out the mother, premature babies from 27 weeks on Often survive and go on to be perfectly healthy.

Compassion should be used for certain cases. One doesn't want an open shop though for those who are clumsy with birth control.