On capital punishment, don’t start with the Old Testament

by Guest Sat May 03, 2014 8:11 am

First topic message reminder :

After this week’s botched execution in Oklahoma, Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, argued why Christians should support the death penalty at CNN.com. Grounding his argument in Genesis 9:6, where Noah is told that anyone guilty of intentional murder should be put to death, Mohler says, “The one who intentionally takes life by murder forfeits the right to his own life.”
In my experience, most Christian pro-death penalty advocates make similar arguments, rooting themselves in Old Testament teaching. On occasion, they bolster their thinking with a somewhat cryptic reference to the government’s ability to “bear the sword” to “bring punishment on the wrongdoer” by the Apostle Paul. Rarely, will anyone cite Jesus’ teachings. Mohler is a capable theologian and a thinker I respect. And I have many intelligent friends who support the death penalty. Yet, I think it is problematic for Christians to root their support of capital punishment in the Jewish Scriptures.

Such thinking requires a bit of arbitrary Biblical picking and choosing. Sure, the Old Testament prescribes death for anyone who commits pre-meditated murder. But it doesn’t stop there. The Hebrew Scriptures also prescribe the death penalty for kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:12), rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), making a sacrifice to a false god (Exodus 22:20), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexual behavior (Leviticus 20:13), and premarital sex (Deuteronomy 22:13-21).
A priest was instructed to burn his daughter alive if she was guilty of prostitution (Leviticus 21:9). If a “son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend” entices you to practice a false religion, they were instructed to “show them no pity” and “stone them to death” (Deuteronomy 13:6-10).
Do you have rebellious children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) or kids who’ve hit or cursed you (Exodus 21:15-17)? Off with their heads!
Have you worked on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2)? Try using your skills to bang license plates on death row.
Are you a banker who lends money with a high interest rate to make a profit (Ezekiel 18:13)? See you on the other side.
I am being humorous here, but the random picking and choosing of when to apply the Old Testament provisions for capital punishment is serious business that requires serious thought.
For example, what of the command in Deuteronomy 17:6 that someone could only be put to death on the evidence of two or three witnesses? Why don’t pro-death penalty advocates who ground their thinking in the Old Testament also require this provision before they support an execution? And what about the fact that in most of these cases a monetary substitute was allowed if the offender agreed to it? My pro-death penalty friends can’t seem to give me a clear answer on this.

Even more troubling is the way Christians who support the death penalty almost never consider the words and witness of Jesus. If you search Mohler’s CNN article for the words “Jesus” or “Christ,” you’ll find exactly zero references. And this approach, in my opinion, is not the best way to do theology. Christians are to be New Testament followers of Jesus, not members of an ancient Jewish tribe. As such, our thinking must be grounded in Jesus. He is the ultimate standard for what God desires of his people in this age, and he is the ultimate Word of God through which all other words are to be viewed.
Jesus said, “You have heard that it was taught, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”
In one swift and startling statement, Jesus took a hammer to the lex talionis—the basis for capital punishment in the Hebrew Scriptures—and gave those who would follow after him a new way to live. Leaving violence and vengeance and the power of death and life to the only perfect being who exists: God.
In addition to his words and witness, we must also consider the work of Jesus. Which is to say, we must root our thinking in the gospel. As Preston Sprinkle, a vice president at Eternity Bible College, writes in his book “Fight: A Christian Case for Non-Violence,”

From God’s perspective, the wages of sin is death, which means that we all—even you—have already been convicted of capital crimes in God’s courtroom and have been given the death penalty. It would be odd—some would say hypocritical—for Christians to thank God for taking their death penalty and then spin around to celebrate the death of someone they think is worse than them.

Given recent events, we should expect that many leaders will be making a case either for or against capital punishment in the days ahead. Christians should not throw out the Old Testament with last week’s rubbish, but when evaluating any important matter—especially when lives are at stake—let us must begin with Jesus and the gospel and see where that leads us.

- See more at: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2014/05/02/capital-punishment-dont-start-old-testament/#sthash.nuPsZ0Wu.dpuf

by Guest Tue May 06, 2014 7:43 pm

David wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

Really??

And how would you know??

Did Didge tell you that??

It is well known really twanker! How did you not know that???

oh its well known is it

is that all i can look forward to??you two twats telling me its well known but not elaborating

nothing new there then

by Guest Tue May 06, 2014 7:46 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:From Wikipedia:

While Christianity includes the five books of Moses (the Pentateuch) among their sacred texts in its Old Testament, Islam states that only the original Torah was sent by the One true God. In neither religion does the Torah retain the religious legal significance that it has in Orthodox Judaism.

Among early centers of Christianity the Septuagint was used by Greek speakers, while Aramaic Targums were used by Aramaic speakers such as the Syriac Orthodox Church. It was regarded as the standard form of the Old Testament in the early Greek Christian Church and is still considered canonical in the Eastern Orthodox Church.[33] Though different Christian denominations have slightly different versions of the Old Testament in their Bibles, the Torah as the "Five Books of Moses" (or "the Mosaic Law") is common among them all.

The Quran refers heavily to Moses to outline the truth of his existence and the religious guidelines that God had revealed to the Children of Israel. God says in the Qur'an, "It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you with truth, confirming what came before it. And He sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)." [3:1]

Muslims call the Torah the Tawrat and consider it the word of God given to Moses. However, Muslims also believe that this original revelation was corrupted (tahrif)(or simply altered by the passage of time and human fallibility) over time by Jewish scribes[34] and hence do not revere the present "Jewish version" Torah as much. 7:144–144 The Torah in the Qur'an is always mentioned with respect in Islam. The Muslims' belief in the Torah, as well as the prophethood of Moses, is one of the fundamental tenets of Islam.

good for you, you learned how to Google

tell me ben what is the major, and i do mean MAJOR theological fuckup with what you have just given me??

lets see if you have more intelligence than a google bot

by Ben Reilly Tue May 06, 2014 7:54 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:From Wikipedia:

While Christianity includes the five books of Moses (the Pentateuch) among their sacred texts in its Old Testament, Islam states that only the original Torah was sent by the One true God. In neither religion does the Torah retain the religious legal significance that it has in Orthodox Judaism.

Among early centers of Christianity the Septuagint was used by Greek speakers, while Aramaic Targums were used by Aramaic speakers such as the Syriac Orthodox Church. It was regarded as the standard form of the Old Testament in the early Greek Christian Church and is still considered canonical in the Eastern Orthodox Church.[33] Though different Christian denominations have slightly different versions of the Old Testament in their Bibles, the Torah as the "Five Books of Moses" (or "the Mosaic Law") is common among them all.

The Quran refers heavily to Moses to outline the truth of his existence and the religious guidelines that God had revealed to the Children of Israel. God says in the Qur'an, "It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you with truth, confirming what came before it. And He sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)." [3:1]

Muslims call the Torah the Tawrat and consider it the word of God given to Moses. However, Muslims also believe that this original revelation was corrupted (tahrif)(or simply altered by the passage of time and human fallibility) over time by Jewish scribes[34] and hence do not revere the present "Jewish version" Torah as much. 7:144–144 The Torah in the Qur'an is always mentioned with respect in Islam. The Muslims' belief in the Torah, as well as the prophethood of Moses, is one of the fundamental tenets of Islam.

good for you, you learned how to Google

tell me ben what is the major, and i do mean MAJOR theological fuckup with what you have just given me??

lets see if you have more intelligence than a google bot

I don't know about theological fuck-ups, but as far as fuck-ups in general, my major one was paying you any attention.

by Guest Tue May 06, 2014 8:01 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

good for you, you learned how to Google

tell me ben what is the major, and i do mean MAJOR theological fuckup with what you have just given me??

lets see if you have more intelligence than a google bot

I don't know about theological fuck-ups, but as far as fuck-ups in general, my major one was paying you any attention.

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

by veya_victaous Wed May 07, 2014 2:13 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

good for you, you learned how to Google

tell me ben what is the major, and i do mean MAJOR theological fuckup with what you have just given me??

lets see if you have more intelligence than a google bot

I don't know about theological fuck-ups, but as far as fuck-ups in general, my major one was paying you any attention.

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

Pray tell smelly what was the fuck up ? (that you believe Rolling Eyes

)

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 4:25 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

good for you, you learned how to Google

tell me ben what is the major, and i do mean MAJOR theological fuckup with what you have just given me??

lets see if you have more intelligence than a google bot

I don't know about theological fuck-ups, but as far as fuck-ups in general, my major one was paying you any attention.

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 6:55 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

No need to get annoyed Ben with smelly, he is clueless when he comes to theology and does what he claims of Muslims, has his own interpretation of religion, even more so his own.

What smelly negates is he thinks his religion is not borrowed from the Jews, when Jews in the main do not see Jesus as a messiah let alone the son of God, they find Christianity Blasphemy to deify Jesus, but he is up in arms over Muslims copying the Jewish stories as well, when Christians have just nicked the Jewish stories and made part of their faith, because they cannot leave out any of the stories being as Jesus himself was a Jew who did not knock the previous prophets.
They all view having the same deity, of course they disagree, but it is very much the same stories within, just within the Quran it is told from the aspect of the deity called here as Allah

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 6:57 am

Anyway one could argue that all 3 of these Abrahamic faiths have taken their faith from the worship of the Aten

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 6:59 am

The death penalty is retarded.

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:03 am

Samhraí wrote:The death penalty is retarded.

Agreed, though interested to know your views to why?

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 7:04 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

No need to get annoyed Ben with smelly, he is clueless when he comes to theology and does what he claims of Muslims, has his own interpretation of religion, even more so his own.

What smelly negates is he thinks his religion is not borrowed from the Jews, when Jews in the main do not see Jesus as a messiah let alone the son of God, they find Christianity Blasphemy to deify Jesus, but he is up in arms over Muslims copying the Jewish stories as well, when Christians have just nicked the Jewish stories and made part of their faith, because they cannot leave out any of the stories being as Jesus himself was a Jew who did not knock the previous prophets.
They all view having the same deity, of course they disagree, but it is very much the same stories within, just within the Quran it is told from the aspect of the deity called here as Allah

Exactly right -- from a neutral point of view, these are all versions of the same faith. Just like soccer and rugby and American gridiron can be seen as versions of the same basic game.

But people with blinders on will always insist on how different they are, and deride anybody who can see that they're all basically preaching the same thing, with a few minor quibbles they use to distinguish themselves from and set themselves against one another.

I used to think Christians at least would be flattered to know the high esteem Muslims hold for Jesus, Noah, Adam, Moses ... but dummies like smelly think Muslims worship a different God altogether. I wonder how that could possibly be when they venerate the likes of Jesus, Moses, Noah, Adam, Mary ... etc. ... etc. ... Smile

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:06 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:

No need to get annoyed Ben with smelly, he is clueless when he comes to theology and does what he claims of Muslims, has his own interpretation of religion, even more so his own.

What smelly negates is he thinks his religion is not borrowed from the Jews, when Jews in the main do not see Jesus as a messiah let alone the son of God, they find Christianity Blasphemy to deify Jesus, but he is up in arms over Muslims copying the Jewish stories as well, when Christians have just nicked the Jewish stories and made part of their faith, because they cannot leave out any of the stories being as Jesus himself was a Jew who did not knock the previous prophets.
They all view having the same deity, of course they disagree, but it is very much the same stories within, just within the Quran it is told from the aspect of the deity called here as Allah

Exactly right -- from a neutral point of view, these are all versions of the same faith. Just like soccer and rugby and American gridiron can be seen as versions of the same basic game.

But people with blinders on will always insist on how different they are, and deride anybody who can see that they're all basically preaching the same thing, with a few minor quibbles they use to distinguish themselves from and set themselves against one another.

I used to think Christians at least would be flattered to know the high esteem Muslims hold for Jesus, Noah, Adam, Moses ... but dummies like smelly think Muslims worship a different God altogether. I wonder how that could possibly be when they venerate the likes of Jesus, Moses, Noah, Adam, Mary ... etc. ... etc. ...

This will make you laugh, he once told me he thought Allah existed as well as his deity, them both being different with Allah an evil deity, which would be odd for his faith, when his own deity claims to be the only one, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt really Ben

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:06 am

Didge wrote:
Samhraí wrote:The death penalty is retarded.

Agreed, though interested to know your views to why?

"We're going to punish you for homicide by committing homicide"

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:07 am

Samhraí wrote:
Didge wrote:

Agreed, though interested to know your views to why?

"We're going to punish you for homicide by committing homicide"

Yep, that about sums it up, fair play.

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 7:08 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:

No need to get annoyed Ben with smelly, he is clueless when he comes to theology and does what he claims of Muslims, has his own interpretation of religion, even more so his own.

What smelly negates is he thinks his religion is not borrowed from the Jews, when Jews in the main do not see Jesus as a messiah let alone the son of God, they find Christianity Blasphemy to deify Jesus, but he is up in arms over Muslims copying the Jewish stories as well, when Christians have just nicked the Jewish stories and made part of their faith, because they cannot leave out any of the stories being as Jesus himself was a Jew who did not knock the previous prophets.
They all view having the same deity, of course they disagree, but it is very much the same stories within, just within the Quran it is told from the aspect of the deity called here as Allah

Exactly right -- from a neutral point of view, these are all versions of the same faith. Just like soccer and rugby and American gridiron can be seen as versions of the same basic game.

But people with blinders on will always insist on how different they are, and deride anybody who can see that they're all basically preaching the same thing, with a few minor quibbles they use to distinguish themselves from and set themselves against one another.

I used to think Christians at least would be flattered to know the high esteem Muslims hold for Jesus, Noah, Adam, Moses ... but dummies like smelly think Muslims worship a different God altogether. I wonder how that could possibly be when they venerate the likes of Jesus, Moses, Noah, Adam, Mary ... etc. ... etc. ...

This will make you laugh, he once told me he thought Allah existed as well as his deity, them both being different with Allah an evil deity, which would be odd for his faith, when his own deity claims to be the only one, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt really Ben

No pun -- but holy shit, that is crazy Smile

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:10 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:

This will make you laugh, he once told me he thought Allah existed as well as his deity, them both being different with Allah an evil deity, which would be odd for his faith, when his own deity claims to be the only one, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt really Ben

No pun -- but holy shit, that is crazy

Yep, I have lots of respect for the majority of Christians, but he does fall into the extremist bracket. What he argues is no different from Islamic extremists as he is always banging on about a war with a faith, have seen these views when studying the Crisades and he never can see the irony of that.

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 7:11 am

Also wanted to add, Samhrai and Didge, that I've always thought the main intent behind the death penalty was that it would scare people into obeying the law.

Tell that to a serial killer I heard about, whose goal was to kill everyone in the belief that upon doing so, he would become God.

People like that have profound cognitive disturbances; the idea of punishment and cause and effect probably does not even enter into their thought process.

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 7:13 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:

This will make you laugh, he once told me he thought Allah existed as well as his deity, them both being different with Allah an evil deity, which would be odd for his faith, when his own deity claims to be the only one, so I would take what he says with a pinch of salt really Ben

No pun -- but holy shit, that is crazy

Yep, I have lots of respect for the majority of Christians, but he does fall into the extremist bracket. What he argues is no different from Islamic extremists as he is always banging on about a war with a faith, have seen these views when studying the Crisades and he never can see the irony of that.

I once read an article about American Christian holy-rollers who attended a conference where they got to meet a bunch of Islamic extremists. The Americans were simply amazed to find out all the things they agreed upon with their Islamic extremist brethren Smile

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:14 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Also wanted to add, Samhrai and Didge, that I've always thought the main intent behind the death penalty was that it would scare people into obeying the law.

Tell that to a serial killer I heard about, whose goal was to kill everyone in the belief that upon doing so, he would become God.

People like that have profound cognitive disturbances; the idea of punishment and cause and effect probably does not even enter into their thought process.

Yeah it's fucking useless as a deterrent.
Prison itself is supposed to be a deterrent but oh, no wait, they're over-crowded.

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:15 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:

Yep, I have lots of respect for the majority of Christians, but he does fall into the extremist bracket. What he argues is no different from Islamic extremists as he is always banging on about a war with a faith, have seen these views when studying the Crisades and he never can see the irony of that.

I once read an article about American Christian holy-rollers who attended a conference where they got to meet a bunch of Islamic extremists. The Americans were simply amazed to find out all the things they agreed upon with their Islamic extremist brethren

That sounds about right.

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:18 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Also wanted to add, Samhrai and Didge, that I've always thought the main intent behind the death penalty was that it would scare people into obeying the law.

Tell that to a serial killer I heard about, whose goal was to kill everyone in the belief that upon doing so, he would become God.

People like that have profound cognitive disturbances; the idea of punishment and cause and effect probably does not even enter into their thought process.

I have also read about serial killers that seek death as an escape, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Panzram

To me people should be punished for life but made to pay their crimes, by no freedom and hard labour.

Throughout history it though has never worked as a deterrent.

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 7:19 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Also wanted to add, Samhrai and Didge, that I've always thought the main intent behind the death penalty was that it would scare people into obeying the law.

Tell that to a serial killer I heard about, whose goal was to kill everyone in the belief that upon doing so, he would become God.

People like that have profound cognitive disturbances; the idea of punishment and cause and effect probably does not even enter into their thought process.

I have also read about serial killers that seek death as an escape, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Panzram

To me people should be punished for life but made to pay their crimes, by no freedom and hard labour.

Throughout history it though has never worked as a deterrent.

Exactly, death is a preferable punishment to what imprisonment entails.

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:21 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Also wanted to add, Samhrai and Didge, that I've always thought the main intent behind the death penalty was that it would scare people into obeying the law.

Tell that to a serial killer I heard about, whose goal was to kill everyone in the belief that upon doing so, he would become God.

People like that have profound cognitive disturbances; the idea of punishment and cause and effect probably does not even enter into their thought process.

I have also read about serial killers that seek death as an escape, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Panzram

To me people should be punished for life but made to pay their crimes, by no freedom and hard labour.

Throughout history it though has never worked as a deterrent.

Labour should play more of a role than it currently does in prisons.
I don't mean the political party obviously.

I know Russia has a few prisons in Siberia where the entire prison population is put to work.

It would count as a form of community service and if they manufacture shit for corporations it would greatly help fund the prisons.

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:23 am

Although I think being imprisoned for literally the rest of your life until you die should only be kept for the REALLY fucked up shit.

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 7:23 am

Samhraí wrote:
Didge wrote:

I have also read about serial killers that seek death as an escape, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Panzram

To me people should be punished for life but made to pay their crimes, by no freedom and hard labour.

Throughout history it though has never worked as a deterrent.

Labour should play more of a role than it currently does in prisons.
I don't mean the political party obviously.

I know Russia has a few prisons in Siberia where the entire prison population is put to work.

It would count as a form of community service and if they manufacture shit for corporations it would greatly help fund the prisons.

I think some American prisons do the same, but very much agree, that it should be hard labour, also very good point in paying for the system, never even thought of that to be honest

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 7:24 am

Samhraí wrote:Although I think being imprisoned for literally the rest of your life until you die should only be kept for the REALLY fucked up shit.

Yeah, like wearing a biker jacket when you've never even been on a motorcycle Smile

by Eilzel Wed May 07, 2014 9:22 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

I think you know the answer to that Ben lol!

by veya_victaous Wed May 07, 2014 10:27 am

Didge wrote:Anyway one could argue that all 3 of these Abrahamic faiths have taken their faith from the worship of the Aten

Finally Someone else who has read enough study

of enough history and theology to also say it :::grouch::
On capital punishment, don’t start with the Old Testament - Page 2 2012-04-05-a-high-five

by David Wed May 07, 2014 11:37 am

Eilzel wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

I think you know the answer to that Ben

Twanker is pointless lol ::attn::

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 5:19 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

no shit you don't know anything about theology

youre nothing more than a mouthpiece

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

i used to make my point by then i realized that im dealing with people like you and didge

if smellybandit said "water is wet" you would disagree simply because im the one saying it

if i thought for a second you were actually interested in knowing then i would tell you, if i thought for one second you were mature enough to listen to anything i had to say i would say it

but what i found works best is if i lead YOU to the conclusion and YOURE the one making it then you people like yourself tend to accept it more easily, like elizel did

now i will give you a clue its in the last two passages of your post being referenced

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 5:22 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:

No need to get annoyed Ben with smelly, he is clueless when he comes to theology and does what he claims of Muslims, has his own interpretation of religion, even more so his own.

What smelly negates is he thinks his religion is not borrowed from the Jews, when Jews in the main do not see Jesus as a messiah let alone the son of God, they find Christianity Blasphemy to deify Jesus, but he is up in arms over Muslims copying the Jewish stories as well, when Christians have just nicked the Jewish stories and made part of their faith, because they cannot leave out any of the stories being as Jesus himself was a Jew who did not knock the previous prophets.
They all view having the same deity, of course they disagree, but it is very much the same stories within, just within the Quran it is told from the aspect of the deity called here as Allah

Exactly right -- from a neutral point of view, these are all versions of the same faith. Just like soccer and rugby and American gridiron can be seen as versions of the same basic game.

But people with blinders on will always insist on how different they are, and deride anybody who can see that they're all basically preaching the same thing, with a few minor quibbles they use to distinguish themselves from and set themselves against one another.

I used to think Christians at least would be flattered to know the high esteem Muslims hold for Jesus, Noah, Adam, Moses ... but dummies like smelly think Muslims worship a different God altogether. I wonder how that could possibly be when they venerate the likes of Jesus, Moses, Noah, Adam, Mary ... etc. ... etc. ...

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

youre an idiot

the only thing rugby soccer and US football have in common is a ball none of which can even be crossed over to play in the other games you retard

that is AMAZING stupidity

::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg:: ::smthg::

by Ben Reilly Wed May 07, 2014 5:52 pm

Really, that's all they have in common? They're not all played by two teams of 11 players who move the ball toward a goal protected by the opposite team and score points by crossing the ball over the goal line?

They don't all descend from ancient ball games like Harpastum?'

Keep showing us how little you know about anything, smelly; it's quite entertaining!

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 10:23 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Really, that's all they have in common? They're not all played by two teams of 11 players who move the ball toward a goal protected by the opposite team and score points by crossing the ball over the goal line?

They don't all descend from ancient ball games like Harpastum?'

Keep showing us how little you know about anything, smelly; it's quite entertaining!

You said they were basically the same game mongo in the most idiotic attempt at an analogy I've ever seen

They aren't even remotely close to being the same game

Shows how much you know about religion when you're comparing it to sport

lol!

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 10:45 pm

Oh by the way you fucking mongoloid

Rugby teams have 15 players in the field

My name is Ben, I fink Islam,Judaism and Christianity are the same because rugby soccer and grid iron are all played with balls

So is golf you tard

PMSL

by Guest Wed May 07, 2014 11:32 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:Oh by the way you fucking mongoloid

Smelly...thats just not right or decent...you shouldnt decry someone who cant help their condition in order to "insult" some one who YOU consider is merely "terminally stupid" c'mon man...its not often i come P.C all over but that was rude to many many downs sufferers...a lot of whom are far from stupid. Think before you post....

Rugby teams have 15 players in the field

My name is Ben, I fink Islam,Judaism and Christianity are the same because rugby soccer and grid iron are all played with balls

So is golf you tard

PMSL

by Guest Thu May 08, 2014 6:53 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Fuck you, cabrón. Knowing about theology is like knowing about astrology -- you're an expert on bullshit -- congratulations, you've wasted time.

But like Veya said, I would like to know what nuance of said bullshit you think I missed. P.S. -- I don't know why people like you like to prance around your points so much. If you've got a point to make, why don't you just make it?

i used to make my point by then i realized that im dealing with people like you and didge

if smellybandit said "water is wet" you would disagree simply because im the one saying it

if i thought for a second you were actually interested in knowing then i would tell you, if i thought for one second you were mature enough to listen to anything i had to say i would say it

but what i found works best is if i lead YOU to the conclusion and YOURE the one making it then you people like yourself tend to accept it more easily, like elizel did

now i will give you a clue its in the last two passages of your post being referenced

So just more waffle and nothing to actually counter anyone's points on theology

I have seen more hot air out of smelly than a hot air balloon or actually avoiding the debate, think he is learning where I catch him out so many time

by David Thu May 08, 2014 8:40 am

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

i used to make my point by then i realized that im dealing with people like you and didge

if smellybandit said "water is wet" you would disagree simply because im the one saying it

if i thought for a second you were actually interested in knowing then i would tell you, if i thought for one second you were mature enough to listen to anything i had to say i would say it

but what i found works best is if i lead YOU to the conclusion and YOURE the one making it then you people like yourself tend to accept it more easily, like elizel did

now i will give you a clue its in the last two passages of your post being referenced

So just more waffle and nothing to actually counter anyone's points on theology

I have seen more hot air out of smelly than a hot air balloon or actually avoiding the debate, think he is learning where I catch him out so many time

So much wind here it is incredible lol!

by Guest Thu May 08, 2014 8:41 am

David wrote:
Didge wrote:

So just more waffle and nothing to actually counter anyone's points on theology

I have seen more hot air out of smelly than a hot air balloon or actually avoiding the debate, think he is learning where I catch him out so many time

So much wind here it is incredible

HI David

Indeed, we would have enough resources to power the UK for years

::D::

by Guest Thu May 08, 2014 9:57 am

What debate didge??

Ben like you like Dave are all trying to pass yourselves off as religious mastermind

Not one of you can point out the smash-you-in-the-face obvious theological blunder in bens post

And yet you all still carry on like your experts

Experts at talking a good talk, not one of you knows a thing about theology

by David Thu May 08, 2014 11:29 am

Didge wrote:
David wrote:

So much wind here it is incredible

HI David

Indeed, we would have enough resources to power the UK for years

::D::

hahaha yes indeed especially now he is turning into a hurricane lol!

by Guest Thu May 08, 2014 3:40 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:What debate didge??

Ben like you like Dave are all trying to pass yourselves off as religious mastermind

Not one of you can point out the smash-you-in-the-face obvious theological blunder in bens post

And yet you all still carry on like your experts

Experts at talking a good talk, not one of you knows a thing about theology

I do not claim to be a master mind just have clearly far more knowledge than you when you make the most idiotic claims on religion, that is obvious when you get spanked so many times on the matter and here again we have you offer nothing in defense of your views except what I claimed before untold hot air.

It is utterly hilarious.

by Guest Thu May 08, 2014 11:11 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:What debate didge??

Ben like you like Dave are all trying to pass yourselves off as religious mastermind

Not one of you can point out the smash-you-in-the-face obvious theological blunder in bens post

And yet you all still carry on like your experts

Experts at talking a good talk, not one of you knows a thing about theology

I do not claim to be a master mind just have clearly far more knowledge than you when you make the most idiotic claims on religion, that is obvious when you get spanked so many times on the matter and here again we have you offer nothing in defense of your views except what I claimed before untold hot air.

It is utterly hilarious.

Sure pal

You're always waffling on about how much you know about religion and yet all you ever really do is tell me how you've "spanked" - this coming from you who thought Allah was a Greek god lol!

There is a clear and obvious theologic contradiction in bens post and yet you haven't the faintest idea what it is

So much for your superior knowledge

As always the emptiest vessel makes the loudest noise

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 6:53 am

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:

I do not claim to be a master mind just have clearly far more knowledge than you when you make the most idiotic claims on religion, that is obvious when you get spanked so many times on the matter and here again we have you offer nothing in defense of your views except what I claimed before untold hot air.

It is utterly hilarious.

Sure pal

You're always waffling on about how much you know about religion and yet all you ever really do is tell me how you've "spanked" - this coming from you who thought Allah was a Greek god

There is a clear and obvious theologic contradiction in bens post and yet you haven't the faintest idea what it is

So much for your superior knowledge

As always the emptiest vessel makes the loudest noise

Never claimed Allah was a greek God, one moment

://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/:

Talk about making things up because you get schooled on theology

Yes we are all dying to know what this error is smelly and I am waiting to absolutely embarrass you over it.

So please pretty please make a fool of yourself again, as I have never seen something so funny as a poster make a claim something is wrong without ever saying proving once again you are all hot air

::D::

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 7:00 am

Yeah you did

You said that Islam taught that there was a pantheon of gods and Allah was one of them

The funny thing was that even then when you admitted you were wrong you were still saying how much more you knew about Islam than I did

And then when you confused the Sunni Muslims and the sunnah, you were also crowing about your superiority knowledge

You are a good copy and paster, in fact you're a grandmaster at googling but as far as knowing what that information means and using it correctly?!

For you it may as well be Swahili

Now please tell me using your superior knowledge what the theological contradiction is??

Or does your superior knowledge not extend that far??

by veya_victaous Fri May 09, 2014 7:05 am

smelly_bandit wrote:Yeah you did

You said that Islam taught that there was a pantheon of gods and Allah was one of them

The funny thing was that even then when you admitted you were wrong you were still saying how much more you knew about Islam than I did

And then when you confused the Sunni Muslims and the sunnah, you were also crowing about your superiority knowledge

You are a good copy and paster, in fact you're a grandmaster at googling but as far as knowing what that information means and using it correctly?!

For you it may as well be Swahili

Now please tell me using your superior knowledge what the theological contradiction is??

Or does your superior knowledge not extend that far??

I think you are mistaken smelly... if Not State what you think is wrong?

Or are you just full of shit again?

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 7:08 am

smelly_bandit wrote:Yeah you did

You said that Islam taught that there was a pantheon of gods and Allah was one of them
Incorrect, what I said was that allah was of one a set of pagan deities before Islam, which at least I do not claim he exists as you do. ha ha ha ha ha
The funny thing was that even then when you admitted you were wrong you were still saying how much more you knew about Islam than I did
I do know far more than you do as backed up by others including Zack who always owns you on this debate because we have exposed you have ever read the Quran from the many errors we have exposed and you play off this claim, when you still make the same error on the 9:29 verse, one moment

://?roflmao?/:

And then when you confused the Sunni Muslims and the sunnah, you were also crowing about your superiority knowledge

Never did that either, you know I did a typo but that shows the level of your desperation to find anything on me when you get as stated an education on theology, you see you cling to such poor points, where I educated you on he history of your own country, how embarrassing is that for you?
So please spare me your blushes smelly, because you have a typo and a claim to a pre Islamic deity called allah

You are a good copy and paster, in fact you're a grandmaster at googling but as far as knowing what that information means and using it correctly?!
Really, this coming from you that copoied and pasted the Crusades from Robert Spencer and then got owned on the debate by myself and Oldman, to you plagerizing the Mein Kampf claim to getting spanked on that also, sorry we all know it is you that copies others and their arguments also, this is so telling because you get confused when I counter them and you do not have the answer and have to come back a day later after emailing a friend for help-

For you it may as well be Swahili

Now please tell me using your superior knowledge what the theological contradiction is??

Or does your superior knowledge not extend that far??

There is no contradiction, I am waiting for you to fuck up again, pleasssse, pretty please?

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 7:10 am

veya_victaous wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:Yeah you did

You said that Islam taught that there was a pantheon of gods and Allah was one of them

The funny thing was that even then when you admitted you were wrong you were still saying how much more you knew about Islam than I did

And then when you confused the Sunni Muslims and the sunnah, you were also crowing about your superiority knowledge

You are a good copy and paster, in fact you're a grandmaster at googling but as far as knowing what that information means and using it correctly?!

For you it may as well be Swahili

Now please tell me using your superior knowledge what the theological contradiction is??

Or does your superior knowledge not extend that far??

I think you are mistaken smelly... if Not State what you think is wrong?

Or are you just full of shit again?

His error will be that he has not seen this is a view by a Jew who has written this, wait and see, him fuck up, it will be fun

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 10:19 am

It should be noted how defensive young didge is getting

He blames his confusion between the Sunnis and the sunnah on a typo

Impossible to make that big a typos since the keys on the keyboard do not allow for a typo of that magnitude

It would be like trying to spell cat and end up spelling vehicle instead and blaming it on a typo

Secondly didgey you mentioned the word "pantheon" and when I presented the argument of Allah being a pre Islamic deity you argued against it

I still have the argument I used if you want to go again??

And I almost forgot my favourite - you arguing that the mother of Jesus was thousands of years old and also the sister of Moses and Aaron

That was probably your greatest hit

Bottom line didge you like to talk the talk and you do it well bug actual real comprehension of the scripture and texts is beyond you

You're still clueless as to the contradiction in talking about

In fact you're so baffled you haven't even tried to preempt and counter me before I get there

Smile

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 10:21 am

smelly_bandit wrote:It should be noted how defensive young didge is getting

He blames his confusion between the Sunnis and the sunnah on a typo

Impossible to make that big a typos since the keys on the keyboard do not allow for a typo of that magnitude

It would be like trying to spell cat and end up spelling vehicle instead and blaming it on a typo

Secondly didgey you mentioned the word "pantheon" and when I presented the argument of Allah being a pre Islamic deity you argued against it

I still have the argument I used if you want to go again??

And I almost forgot my favourite - you arguing that the mother of Jesus was thousands of years old and also the sister of Moses and Aaron

That was probably your greatest hit

Bottom line didge you like to talk the talk and you do it well bug actual real comprehension of the scripture and texts is beyond you

You're still clueless as to the contradiction in talking about

In fact you're so baffled you haven't even tried to preempt and counter me before I get there

Hilarious so all smelly can do is still go on these two points of which he now fabricates on ha ha ha

Mate we are all waiting for you to fuck up again, and happy to wait, never seen someone so many times schooled on history and theology running so scared all the time

Let me know when you want to embarrass yourself fiurther

::D::

Oh I forgot your fuck up on Aarin, that one was comical where you claim this Aaron was the same Aaron as the brother of Moses, and you based this view on no evidence except stupidity, that was hilarious, even though you could not prove she did not have siblings, yes we all remember you embarrass yourself on that

by Guest Fri May 09, 2014 11:58 am

There it is the classic didge

Waffle waffle and more waffle

Come in didge show me how much more you know than I do

Don't you understand that if you did know more than me then you would already have seen what I'm talking about and put a counter in place

I'll give you a hint - it's in the last two paragraphs of bens post

Let's see how much you really know

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