Let's talk about Putin

First topic message reminder :

I know the site is really inactive lately, but I was hoping to see some discussion of the latest Russian events tonight. So I'll start the discussion.

I remember more than 22 years ago, when Sen. John McCain was runnings against Texas Gov. George W. Bush for the Republican presidental nomination. Bush famous said of Vladimir Putin, "I looked in his eyes and saw his soul." McCain's sharp retort was, "I looked in his eyes and saw KGB."

Putin, let's not forget, has run Russia since the late 1990s. He's stood for president and for PM and somehow, he's never lost.

He's known to have political opponents, critics and journalists jailed on trumped-up charges or assassinated.

He re-annexed Crimea last decade and has had designs on Ukraine for years. Now his regime is implying that Sweden and Finland had better not consider joining Nato or they might be attacked.

His Internet skunkworks are well-known. A great number of Facebook groups and pages that shit-stir in U.S. politics were found to have originated in Russia. His internet operatives interfered in Brexit and many other elections in Europe and the U.S.

I read earlier today that a former CIA chief (or maybe MI6) said Putin is isolated and ill-advised, seeing himself as a messiah figure and simultaneaously deeply frustrated at the lack of progress on his agenda.

That agenda is obviously to increase his own power at the expense of his neighbors. He can't be a cooperative leader; he leads to feed his own ego. And finally, the world has a good-enough excuse to get rid of him.

Ben Reilly wrote:Wow, this prompted a lot more discussion than I expected!
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Well, when you make the effort to start a thread of interest, people may well respond....as has happened.

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:



I'm not making excuses, and I don't support wars, I support peace!

I do too. I look at wars as though it’s two boys fighting over something we can’t really get to the bottom of and I’m not interested. Let them get on with it.

Turning away, letting the big boy flatten the little boy, isn't the answer though.
There can never be a peaceful solution by allowing a despostic madman to win a war, a war they have started in the first place.

This isn't something that just started last week without any reasons... The so called 'little boy' has been bombing his own people for 8 years and has provoked the 'big boy' into putting him in his place...

Tommy Monk wrote:Easy for you and all the other armchair generals to talk tough... But the 99.9% of the rest of us don't want anything to do with this "my dick is bigger than your dick" bullshit!

I'm not the one who is talking tough.  Putin is...and I'm just responding with the same nouns and verbs.  Putin brought up nuclear warfare, and I'm just saying: Be careful...if you normalize talk about nukes, you might end up with one in your lap!

Putin has amassed this great army to pick on little ole Ukraine.  I'm sure he's reminded of the great army that stopped Germany at Stalingrad in 1942-43.  As we are seeing right now, that great army is no more.  The great Russian army is breaking down, using wrong tactics, and running out of gas.  They don't do the little things that NATO nations take for granted.

This is very typical of organized crime - Putin's style of government.  Underneath all the bluff, they are quick-buck artists.  They don't like long-term responsibilities.  They don't train, they don't innovate, they don't merge technology with manpower - in short, they're not keeping up.  They are an army of middle-aged, fat old men, who've gotten used to beer and vodka, and Saturday afternoon football.  And lo, look what is happening.  They post no dismounted soldiers, leaving their tanks exposed.  They break down mechanically, creating traffic jams for themselves.  They run out of gas - ffs, where is the supply and support train - with the same problem.  If a NATO army had been tasked with the same mission, this would have been all over in 3 days.

To point out that Putin's army is the Keystone Kops, is not to talk tough.  It is to talk analytics.  The analytics of keeping up an army is no different than the analytics of keeping up a potato-chip factory: minimize the down-time, use modern tooling and tactics, and keep your eye on the goal.

If Putin wants to talk nuclear, isn't it wise to remind him that his own Russian predecessors decided that wasn't very smart.  If he wants to go back in time, rebuilding the great Soviet state, remember how and why they met their responsibilities.  No more thug-talk about nukes.

You are absolutely right Tommy, this has been on the cards since before Georgia and Crimea, this plan has been forming in Putin's brain since before 2008.
He is the one threatening everyone what does it matter if nuclear weapons are in a country right next to you or on a different continent, the end is the same just takes a bit longer in the later. Western Europe lived for nearly 50 years with Russian nuclear weapons on their doorstep, no buffer countries then.
He has threatened Finland and Sweden now he's threatened London, I can't help but wonder if Nato would come to our aid and retaliate if London was hit or would they hang back and not want to escalate things and talk about negotiation instead.
Baba Vanga saw Russia ruling the world - isn't that what is happening right now, no one in their right mind wants another all out war in Europe and certainly no one wants nuclear war and that's exactly what Putin is banking on.

Tommy I forgot about Finland, ok it wasn't Putin but it seems to be on the Russian playbook.
Finland declared neutrality in 1939 but a faked border incident gave Russia an excuse to invade, familiar so far? The very small Finnish Army held off the Russians for three months until they were completely exhausted and overwhelmed. Eventually the Finns had to sign the treaty of Moscow and cede 11% of their territory to Russia, must be ringing a bell now surely.

Vintage wrote:Tommy I forgot about Finland, ok it wasn't Putin but it seems to be on the Russian playbook.
Finland declared neutrality in 1939 but a faked border incident gave Russia an excuse to invade, familiar so far? The very small Finnish Army held off the Russians for three months until they were completely exhausted and overwhelmed. Eventually the Finns had to sign the treaty of Moscow and cede 11% of their territory to Russia, must be ringing a bell now surely.

So persuasive is the subsequent result, a common term of International Relations/Political Science is now recognized as Finlandization: a powerful nation influencing it's weaker neighbor.  Sometimes used pejoratively, it is based on the Soviet Union/Finland relationship.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

Tommy Monk wrote:


This isn't something that just started last week without any reasons... The so called 'little boy' has been bombing his own people for 8 years and has provoked the 'big boy' into putting him in his place...

Putin is the Hitler of our century.

Excusing his behavior in Ukraine for the past 8 years, and this current invasion is in shitty form.

Maddog wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


This isn't something that just started last week without any reasons... The so called 'little boy' has been bombing his own people for 8 years and has provoked the 'big boy' into putting him in his place...

Putin is the Hitler of our century.

Excusing his behavior in Ukraine for the past 8 years, and this current invasion is in shitty form.

Proving we've learned nothing over the last 75-years. Just waitin' for the next bully to come along.

The Russian Army looks weak and anemic.  When you have oligarchs skimming off the top, and diverting funds into personal pockets, it doesn't bode well for the enterprise - any enterprise, but the military most of all.  It seems that too many yachts, personal airplanes and palaces, have spelled the demise of the Russian military.

An interview with Andrei Kozyrev, Russia's former first minister of foreign affairs under Boris Yeltzin, on MSNBC today: Putin has been lied to by the oligarchs to hide their corruption.  It is so bad now that … “Telling Putin the truth is less possible than overthrowing him.”  

Of course, corruption bleeds both ways.  Why should a smart guy like Putin be surprised? I suspect he's not a political theorists.

See: https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/california/former-russian-top-diplomat-speaks-out-about-russia/103-4648f937-7e87-4c47-ac90-afbe02807988

Maddog wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


This isn't something that just started last week without any reasons... The so called 'little boy' has been bombing his own people for 8 years and has provoked the 'big boy' into putting him in his place...

Putin is the Hitler of our century.

Excusing his behavior in Ukraine for the past 8 years, and this current invasion is in shitty form.

The current Russian action is a direct result of the last decade of EU/US/NATO gerrymandering in Ukraine and the last 8 years of Ukraine bombing the people in Donbass.


To refuse to acknowledge these facts are either from complete ignorance or being totally disingenuous...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


This isn't something that just started last week without any reasons... The so called 'little boy' has been bombing his own people for 8 years and has provoked the 'big boy' into putting him in his place...

Putin is the Hitler of our century.

Excusing his behavior in Ukraine for the past 8 years, and this current invasion is in shitty form.

The current Russian action is a direct result of the last decade of EU/US/NATO gerrymandering in Ukraine and the last 8 years of Ukraine bombing the people in Donbass.


To refuse to acknowledge these facts are either from complete ignorance or being totally disingenuous...

Ukraine's legitimate, peaceful seeking of alliances in no way permits or excuses the carnage of the Russian invasion, and if you can't see that, you are one extremely lost soul.

The foreign gerrymandering in Ukraine was/is in direct contravention of the Budapest Memorandum 1994.


The EU/US backed coup in 2013/14 was the start of all this.

Tommy Monk wrote:The foreign gerrymandering in Ukraine was/is in direct contravention of the Budapest Memorandum 1994.

The EU/US backed coup in 2013/14 was the start of all this.

Nonsense.  The issue is Russian troops in Ukraine.  The Budapest Memorandum has to do with nuclear weapons.  It was signed, on December 5, 1994, by the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States (later China and France).  It was the promise of these nations to extend the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) by protecting Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Ukraine ('protected nations') from military/economic coercion, in anticipation of the latter nations giving up their nuclear weapons.  Thus, the protected nations were the beneficiaries, not the signatories of the NPT.  The Ukrainians cannot have breached, because they made no promise.

As you can see quite clearly, it is Russia that has taken it upon itself to violate its promise.  Russia has completely ignored the balance created by the Budapest Memorandum by overtly invading Ukraine.  It has tactically used disinformatzia to briefly justify Putin's moves, but everyone knows what is going on.   True to the style of organized criminals, Russia's word means nothing, as power is everything.

Putin is testing his power vis-à-vis the NATO powers, by seeing what he can get away with.  He would like to end up with a scenario not unlike George Orwell’s 1984 – where Russia ends up with the entirety of Europe as its sphere of influence.

But right now, he is testing the waters – is the west led by a Chamberlain, or a Churchill?  If he beats up on lil’ ol’ Ukraine, how will the west respond?  He wants to know what he can accomplish before he dies.

"...The [Budapest] memorandum prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan. As a result of other agreements and the memorandum, between 1993 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons..."

Tommy Monk wrote:"...The [Budapest] memorandum prohibited the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan. As a result of other agreements and the memorandum, between 1993 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons..."

"Other agreements..."  (You have failed to provide your source, but I know it to be Wikipedia, as I've seen it.)  By "other agreement" you are emphasizing that Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan were not a part of the Budapest Memorandum.  As I said, the Budapest Memorandum was a pact between nuclear nations, to the effect that once these smaller nations gave up their nuclear capabilities they would not fall prey to the nations that still have them.

Russia has just violated that pact by attacking Ukraine.  Ukraine has violated nothing, because: (1) they have attacked no one, the allegations that they have being disinformatzia on the part of Putin, Russia's spymaster; and (2) Ukraine was not a party to the Budapest Memorandum and has no obligations thereunder.

That was the point of my bringing up Ukraine's non-participation in the Budapest Memorandum.  But it's entirely beside the point because the provocation all comes from Russia, not Ukraine.

It is quite clear what is written in the quote I gave.


You can twist all you want but are only making yourself look silly!

It's clear that the Budapest Memorandum cannot be used against Ukraine as they were not a party to it (and they have done nothing to initiate hostilities).  It was an agreement between the original signers of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), not to go against weaker nations once they gave up nuclear weapons.

However, Russia was a party to the NPT, and is in breach against other signers...US, UK, and France.  That is why you see the US, UK and France asserting their rights toward Russia, demanding that Russia stand down.

What is written in the Wiki quote you raise is "[a]s a result of other agreements and the memorandum, between 1993 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons..."  All this means is that the triggering event (in contract terms, the condition precedent) took place, not that any rights or obligations were newly created.  That event locked in Russia, not Ukraine.  Ukraine was an actor, not a party.

So, Ukraine has done nothing to provoke the war, except try to run a country in a fair and lawful way.  As I said originally, this is a land grab by Russia - the likes of which we haven't seen since Germany in 1936.

Ok Mr twisty...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Putin is the Hitler of our century.

Excusing his behavior in Ukraine for the past 8 years, and this current invasion is in shitty form.

The current Russian action is a direct result of the last decade of EU/US/NATO gerrymandering in Ukraine and the last 8 years of Ukraine bombing the people in Donbass.


To refuse to acknowledge these facts are either from complete ignorance or being totally disingenuous...

Russia is run by a lunatic that claims he is in Ukraine to kill Nazis.

He had no business in Donbass, Crimea or any other part of Ukraine?

He's the only fucker trying to move borders.

Tommy, your treading in some pretty fucking stupid water here.

Donbass want to be independent from Ukraine and is vast majority russian people.


Ukraine has been bombing them for 8 years.


Crimea is also majority russian, and want to be part of Russia. It is also where Russia's biggest and main naval base is.

Nonsense. do you actually know anyone living in the Donbass region or are you relying on the propaganda you seem to be receiving intravenously.
It is a Russian speaking region, like many other areas and cities in Ukraine, which is hardly suprising as it was under Soviet control for years and that was the official language. Most people can switch between Russian/Ukranian and a lot are not bad in English. Approx 50% of the people there have no wish to be anything other than Ukranian, the rest don't mind being Russian or Ukranian provided their standard of living improves, a few backed by Russian agitators decided to try and change things and attacked a local police station to get things going, to get autonomous republics reliant on and backed by Russia (see Georgia for basic plan). I can't see Russia improving their standard of living. Its basically a north /south divide, people are on the streets shouting Slava Ukraini! Seems odd to me that people would be shouting support for Ukraine if they see the Russians as liberators. You talk about Ukraine bombing its own citizens but don't mention Russian collaborators shooting and bombing their fellow citizens.

Oh and Tommy, don't forget the over 1 million Russian passports offered to anyone in the Donbass region just to do a bit of stirring and agitating. A country offering passports to citizens of another legally recognised sovereign state to take up arms against that state and move in with them. Like France offering passports to regions in the UK to rise up and demand to be autonomous..

Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine

Five years after the Maidan uprising, anti-Semitism and fascist-inflected ultranationalism are rampant.

Five years ago, Ukraine’s Maidan uprising ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, to the cheers and support of the West. Politicians and analysts in the United States and Europe not only celebrated the uprising as a triumph of democracy, but denied reports of Maidan’s ultranationalism, smearing those who warned about the dark side of the uprising as Moscow puppets and useful idiots. Freedom was on the march in Ukraine.
Today, increasing reports of far-right violence, ultranationalism, and erosion of basic freedoms are giving the lie to the West’s initial euphoria. There are neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators.

These stories of Ukraine’s dark nationalism aren’t coming out of Moscow; they’re being filed by Western media, including US-funded Radio Free Europe (RFE); Jewish organizations such as the World Jewish Congress and the Simon Wiesenthal Center; and watchdogs like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and Freedom House, which issued a joint report warning that Kiev is losing the monopoly on the use of force in the country as far-right gangs operate with impunity.

Five years after Maidan, the beacon of democracy is looking more like a torchlight march.
A neo-Nazi battalion in the heart of Europe

“Volunteer Ukrainian Unit Includes Nazis.”—USA Today, March 10, 2015

The DC establishment’s standard defense of Kiev is to point out that Ukraine’s far right has a smaller percentage of seats in the parliament than their counterparts in places like France. That’s a spurious argument: What Ukraine’s far right lacks in polls numbers, it makes up for with things Marine Le Pen could only dream of—paramilitary units and free rein on the streets.

Post-Maidan Ukraine is the world’s only nation to have a neo-Nazi formation in its armed forces. The Azov Battalion was initially formed out of the neo-Nazi gang Patriot of Ukraine. Andriy Biletsky, the gang’s leader who became Azov’s commander, once wrote that Ukraine’s mission is to “lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade…against the Semite-led Untermenschen.” Biletsky is now a deputy in Ukraine’s parliament.

In the fall of 2014, Azov—which is accused of human-rights abuses, including torture, by Human Rights Watch and the United Nations—was incorporated into Ukraine’s National Guard.

While the group officially denies any neo-Nazi connections, Azov’s nature has been confirmed by multiple Western outlets: The New York Times called the battalion “openly neo-Nazi,” while USA Today, The Daily Beast, The Telegraph, and Haaretz documented group members’ proclivity for swastikas, salutes, and other Nazi symbols, and individual fighters have also acknowledged being neo-Nazis.

In January 2018, Azov rolled out its National Druzhina street patrol unit whose members swore personal fealty to Biletsky and pledged to “restore Ukrainian order” to the streets. The Druzhina quickly distinguished itself by carrying out pogroms against the Roma and LGBT organizations and storming a municipal council. Earlier this year, Kiev announced the neo-Nazi unit will be monitoring polls in next month’s presidential election.

In 2017, Congressman Ro Khanna led the effort to ban Azov from receiving U.S. arms and training. But the damage has already been done: The research group Bellingcat proved that Azov had already received access to American grenade launchers, while a Daily Beast investigation showed that US trainers are unable to prevent aid from reaching white supremacists. And Azov itself had proudly posted a video of the unit welcoming NATO representatives.

(Azov isn’t the only far-right formation to get Western affirmation. In December 2014, Amnesty International accused the Dnipro-1 battalion of potential war crimes, including “using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare.” Six months later, Senator John McCain visited and praised the battalion.)

Particularly concerning is Azov’s campaign to transform Ukraine into a hub for transnational white supremacy. The unit has recruited neo-Nazis from Germany, the UK, Brazil, Sweden, and America; last October, the FBI arrested four California white supremacists who had allegedly received training from Azov. This is a classic example of blowback: US support of radicals abroad ricocheting to hit America.

Far right ties to government

“Ukrainian police declare admiration for Nazi collaborators”—RFE, February 13, 2019

Speaker of Parliament Andriy Parubiy cofounded and led two neo-Nazi organizations: the Social-National Party of Ukraine (later renamed Svoboda), and Patriot of Ukraine, whose members would eventually form the core of Azov.

Although Parubiy left the far right in the early 2000’s, he hasn’t rejected his past. When asked about it in a 2016 interview, Parubiy replied that his “values” haven’t changed. Parubiy, whose autobiography shows him marching with the neo-Nazi wolfsangel symbol used by Aryan Nations, regularly meets with Washington think tanks and politicians; his neo-Nazi background is ignored or outright denied.

Even more disturbing is the far right’s penetration of law enforcement. Shortly after Maidan, the US equipped and trained the newly founded National Police, in what was intended to be a hallmark program buttressing Ukrainian democracy.

The deputy minister of the Interior—which controls the National Police—is Vadim Troyan, a veteran of Azov and Patriot of Ukraine. In 2014, when Troyan was being considered for police chief of Kiev, Ukrainian Jewish leaders were appalled by his neo-Nazi background. Today, he’s deputy of the department running US-trained law enforcement in the entire nation.

Earlier this month, RFE reported on National Police leadership admiring Stepan Bandera—a Nazi collaborator and Fascist whose troops participated in the Holocaust—on social media.

The fact that Ukraine’s police is peppered with far-right supporters explains why neo-Nazis operate with impunity on the streets.

State-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators

“Ukrainian extremists celebrate Ukrainian Nazi SS divisions…in the middle of a major Ukrainian city”—Anti-Defamation League Director of European Affairs, April 28, 2018

It’s not just the military and street gangs: Ukraine’s far right has successfully hijacked the post-Maidan government to impose an intolerant and ultranationalist culture over the land.

In 2015, the Ukrainian parliament passed legislation making two WWII paramilitaries—the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)—heroes of Ukraine, and made it a criminal offense to deny their heroism. The OUN had collaborated with the Nazis and participated in the Holocaust, while the UPA slaughtered thousands of Jews and 70,000-100,000 Poles on their own volition.

The government-funded Ukrainian Institute of National Memory is institutionalizing the whitewashing of Nazi collaborators. Last summer, the Ukrainian parliament featured an exhibit commemorating the OUN’s 1941 proclamation of cooperation with the Third Reich (imagine the French government installing an exhibit celebrating the Vichy state!).

Torchlight marches in honor of OUN/UPA leaders like Roman Shukhevych (a commander in a Third Reich auxiliary battalion) are a regular feature of the new Ukraine. The recuperation even extends to SS Galichina, a Ukrainian division of the Waffen-SS; the director of the Institute of National Memory proclaimed that the SS fighters were “war victims.” The government’s embrace of Bandera is not only deplorable, but also extremely divisive, considering the OUN/UPA are reviled in eastern Ukraine.

Predictably, the celebration of Nazi collaborators has accompanied a rise in outright anti-Semitism.

“Jews Out!” chanted thousands during a January 2017 march honoring OUN leader Bandera. (The next day the police denied hearing anything anti-Semitic.) That summer, a three-day festival celebrating the Nazi collaborator Shukhevych capped off with the firebombing of a synagogue. In November 2017, RFE reported Nazi salutes as 20,000 marched in honor of the UPA. And last April, hundreds marched in L’viv with coordinated Nazi salutes honoring SS Galichina; the march was promoted by the L’viv regional government.

The Holocaust revisionism is a multi-pronged effort, ranging from government-funded seminars, brochures, and board games, to the proliferation of plaques, statues, and streets renamed after butchers of Jews, to far-right children camps, where youth are inculcated with ultranationalist ideology.

Within several years, an entire generation will be indoctrinated to worship Holocaust perpetrators as national heroes.
Book bans

“No state should be allowed to interfere in the writing of history.”—British historian Antony Beevor, after his award-winning book was banned in Ukraine, The Telegraph, January 23, 2018

Ukraine’s State Committee for Television and Radio Broadcasting is enforcing the glorification of Ukraine’s new heroes by banning “anti-Ukrainian” literature that goes against the government narrative. This ideological censorship includes acclaimed books by Western authors.

In January 2018, Ukraine made international headlines by banning Stalingrad by award-winning British historian Antony Beevor because of a single paragraph about a Ukrainian unit massacring 90 Jewish children during World War II. In December, Kiev banned The Book Thieves by Swedish author Anders Rydell (which, ironically, is about the Nazis’ suppression of literature) because he mentioned troops loyal to Symon Petliura (an early 20th-century nationalist leader) had slaughtered Jews.

This month, the Ukrainian embassy in Washington exported this intolerance to America by brazenly demanding the United States ban a Russian movie from American theaters. Apparently, the billions Washington invested in promoting democracy in Ukraine have failed to teach Kiev basic concepts of free speech.
Anti-Semitism

“I’m telling you one more time—go to hell, kikes. The Ukrainian people have had it to here with you.”—Security services reserve general Vasily Vovk, May 11, 2017

Unsurprisingly, government-led glorification of Holocaust perpetrators was a green light for other forms of anti-Semitism. The past three years saw an explosion of swastikas and SS runes on city streets, death threats, and vandalism of Holocaust memorials, Jewish centers, cemeteries, tombs, and places of worship, all of which led Israel to take the unusual step of publicly urging Kiev to address the epidemic.

Public officials make anti-Semitic threats with no repercussions. These include: a security services general promising to eliminate the zhidi (a slur equivalent to ‘kikes’); a parliament deputy going off on an anti-Semitic rant on television; a far-right politician lamenting Hitler didn’t finish off the Jews; and an ultranationalist leader vowing to cleanse Odessa of zhidi.

For the first few years after Maidan, Jewish organizations largely refrained from criticizing Ukraine, perhaps in the hope Kiev would address the issue on its own. But by 2018, the increasing frequency of anti-Semitic incidents led Jewish groups to break their silence.

Last year, the Israeli government’s annual report on anti-Semitism heavily featured Ukraine, which had more incidents than all post-Soviet states combined. The World Jewish Congress, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, and 57 members of the US Congress all vociferously condemned Kiev’s Nazi glorification and the concomitant anti-Semitism.

Ukrainian Jewish leaders are also speaking out. In 2017, the director of one of Ukraine’s largest Jewish organizations published a New York Times op-ed urging the West to address Kiev’s whitewashing. Last year, 41 Ukrainian Jewish leaders denounced the growth of anti-Semitism. That’s especially telling, given that many Ukrainian Jewish leaders supported the Maidan uprising.

None of these concerns have been addressed in any meaningful way.
Roma pogroms

“‘They wanted to kill us’: masked neo-fascists strike fear into Ukraine’s Roma.” —The Guardian, August 27, 2018

Ukraine’s far right has resisted carrying out outright attacks on Jews; other vulnerable groups haven’t been so lucky.

Last spring, a lethal wave of anti-Roma pogroms swept through Ukraine, with at least six attacks in two months. Footage from the pogroms evokes the 1930s: Armed thugs attack women and children while razing their camps. At least one man was killed, while others, including a child, were stabbed.

Two gangs behind the attacks—C14 and the National Druzhina—felt comfortable enough to proudly post pogrom videos on social media. That’s not surprising, considering that the National Druzhina is part of Azov, while the neo-Nazi C14 receives government funding for “educational” programs. Last October, C14 leader Serhiy Bondar was welcomed at America House Kyiv, a center run by the US government.

Appeals from international organizations and the US embassy fell on deaf ears: Months after the United Nations demanded Kiev end “systematic persecution” of the Roma, a human-rights group reported C14 were allegedly intimidating Roma in a joint patrol with the Kiev police.
LGBT and Women’s-rights groups

“‘It’s even worse than before’: How the ‘Revolution of Dignity’ Failed LGBT Ukrainians.”—RFE, November 21, 2018

In 2016, after pressure from the US Congress, the Kiev government began providing security for the annual Kiev Pride parade. However, this increasingly looks like a Potemkin affair: two hours of protection, with widespread attacks on LGBT individuals and gatherings during the rest of the year. Nationalist groups have targeted LGBT meetings with impunity, going so far as to shut down an event hosted by Amnesty International as well as assault a Western journalist at a transgender rights rally. Women’s-rights marches have also been targeted, including brazen attacks in March.
Attacks on press

“The Committee to Protect Journalists condemns a Ukrainian law enforcement raid at the Kiev offices of Media Holding Vesti…more than a dozen masked officers ripped open doors with crowbars, seized property, and fired tear gas in the offices.”—The Committee to Protect Journalists, February 9, 2018

In May 2016, Myrotvorets, an ultranationalist website with links to the government, published the personal data of thousands of journalists who had obtained accreditation from Russia-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine. Myrotvorets labeled the journalists “terrorist collaborators.”

A government-tied website declaring open season on journalists would be dangerous anywhere, but it is especially so in Ukraine, which has a disturbing track record of journalist assassinations. This includes Oles Buzina, gunned down in 2015, and Pavel Sheremet, assassinated by car bomb a year later.

The Myrotvorets doxing was denounced by Western reporters, the Committee to Protect Journalists, and ambassadors from the G7 nations. In response, Kiev officials, including Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, praised the site: “This is your choice to cooperate with occupying forces,” Avakov told journalists, while posting “I Support Myrotvorets” on Facebook. Myrotvorets remains operational today.

Last fall brought another attack on the media, this time using the courts. The Prosecutor General’s office was granted a warrant to seize records of RFE anti-corruption reporter Natalie Sedletska. An RFE spokeswoman warned that Kiev’s actions created “a chilling atmosphere for journalists,” while parliament deputy Mustafa Nayyem called it “an example of creeping dictatorship.”
Language laws

“[Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk] also made a personal appeal to Russian-speaking Ukrainians, pledging to support…a special status to the Russian language.”—US Secretary of State John Kerry, April 24, 2014

Ukraine is extraordinarily multilingual: In addition to the millions of Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians, there are areas where Hungarian, Romanian, and other tongues are prevalent. These languages were protected by a 2012 regional-language law.

The post-Maidan government alarmed Russian-speaking Ukrainians by attempting to annul that law. The US State Department and Secretary of State John Kerry sought to assuage fears in 2014 by pledging that Kiev would protect the status of Russian. Those promises came to naught.

A 2017 law mandated that secondary education be conducted strictly in Ukrainian, which infuriated Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece. Several regions passed legislation banning the use of Russian in public life. Quotas enforce Ukrainian usage on TV and radio. (This would be akin to Washington forcing Spanish-language media to broadcast mostly in English.)

And in February 2018, Ukraine’s supreme court struck down the 2012 regional language law—the one Kerry promised eastern Ukrainians would stay in effect.

Currently, Kiev is preparing to pass a draconian law that would mandate the use of Ukrainian in most aspects of public life. It’s another example of Kiev alienating millions of its own citizens, while claiming to embrace Western values.
The price of willful blindness

These examples are only a tiny fraction of Ukraine’s slide toward intolerance, but they should be enough to point out the obvious: Washington’s decision to ignore the proliferation of armed neo-Nazi groups in a highly unstable nation only led to them gaining more power.

This easily predictable outcome is in marked contrast to Washington’s enthusiasm over the “Revolution of Dignity.” “Nationalism is exactly what Ukraine needs,” proclaimed a New Republic article by historian Anne Applebaum, whose celebration of nationalism came out right around the time that Ukraine green-lighted the formation of white-supremacist paramilitaries. A mere four months after Applebaum’s essay, Newsweek ran an article titled “Ukrainian nationalist volunteers committing ‘ISIS-style’ war crimes.”

In essay after essay, DC foreign-policy heads have denied or celebrated the influence of Ukraine’s far right. (Curiously, the same analysts vociferously denounce rising nationalism in Hungary, Poland, and Italy as highly dangerous.) Perhaps think-tankers deluded themselves into thinking Kiev’s far-right phase would tucker itself out. More likely, they simply embraced DC’s go-to strategy of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend.” Either way, the ramifications stretch far beyond Ukraine.

America’s backing of the Maidan uprising, along with the billions DC sinks into post-Maidan Kiev, make it clear: Starting February 2014, Ukraine became Washington’s latest democracy-spreading project. What we permit in Ukraine sends a green light to others.

By tolerating neo-Nazi gangs and battalions, state-led Holocaust distortion, and attacks on LGBT and the Roma, the United States is telling the rest of Europe: “We’re fine with this.” The implications—especially at a time of a global far-right revival—are profoundly disturbing.

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/


This was written February 22, 2019

You are funny. You are condeming one country while applauding another which has an even worse and continual historic record of these things. The Guardian as well. Sheesh.

The guardian?


I am not supporting Russia, I am against war, and I think what they are doing is wrong!


But Ukraine are not free from blame either!


And the UE/US/NATO gerrymandering is also to blame!

In essay after essay, DC foreign-policy heads have denied or celebrated the influence of Ukraine’s far right. (Curiously, the same analysts vociferously denounce rising nationalism in Hungary, Poland, and Italy as highly dangerous.) Perhaps think-tankers deluded themselves into thinking Kiev’s far-right phase would tucker itself out. More likely, they simply embraced DC’s go-to strategy of “my enemy’s enemy is my friend.” Either way, the ramifications stretch far beyond Ukraine.

America’s backing of the Maidan uprising, along with the billions DC sinks into post-Maidan Kiev, make it clear: Starting February 2014, Ukraine became Washington’s latest democracy-spreading project. What we permit in Ukraine sends a green light to others.

By tolerating neo-Nazi gangs and battalions, state-led Holocaust distortion, and attacks on LGBT and the Roma, the United States is telling the rest of Europe: “We’re fine with this.” The implications—especially at a time of a global far-right revival—are profoundly disturbing.

If they clamp down on these groups that will be another green light for Russian to invade to free the oppressed people. There are far right and far left groups in any country, any decent writer could make something of it. Ukraine is a sovereign country anything the rest of the world sees as wrong should be dealt with by sanctions etc. yet here we have the most repressive country, to its own citizens, in the world, trying to police another country by force.
Russia will be as oppressive to its former USSR countries as it always was, very very few want to go back in time so it can hardly be the saviour you seem to see it as but it seems hell bent on bringing back the USSR, country by country, who will be next to be 'rescued' ?
China has Tibet so controls the headwaters in the area, Russia looking to control one of the other biggest suppliers of wheat as a side show?.

Interesting how these nationalist socialists are labelled as "far right"...

Putin has been reading medieval manuscripts that have convinced him that Russians and Ukranians are one people, if this is true that he believes this why is he encouraging his 'own' people to fight each other? Why is he invading and destroying his 'own' peoples cities.
Why did he send in agitators and claim to be freeing ethnic Russians from the Ukranians in the Donbass region?. Tommy?

I don't know about any medieval manuscripts... There is a lot of propaganda being thrown around by a lot of people and news media outlets.


All I've been pointing out is that there is a lot more to this situation than what a lot of people think, going back years... It's not something that just started a few days ago with the Russians moving in to Ukraine...


And I'll say it again... I don't support war, I support peace!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Donbass want to be independent from Ukraine and is vast majority russian people.

Bullshite.

tommy monk wrote:Ukraine has been bombing them for 8 years.

Bullshite.

tommy monk wrote:Crimea is also majority russian, and want to be part of Russia. It is also where Russia's biggest and main naval base is.

Kyiv (capital of Ukraine) is 665 years older than Moscow. Kyiv was founded in 432 CE.  In 1982, it was the 1,500th anniversary of Kyiv.  Russia was only founded in 1547.  Nicholas V. Riasanovsky, A History of Russia (9th Ed.).

If you are talking about modernly, Ukraine was re-established in 1918, and then later was annexed by the Soviet Union.  On August 24th, 1991 Ukraine got its independence.  Russia got its independence in December of 1991. So Ukraine “in the modern era" is 4 months older than Russia.  Ukraine is older than Russia, no matter how you count it.

Of course there are Russians in Crimea.  Russians illegally invaded the place on February 20, 2014.  The Russians in Crimea are the Russian Army, left over from the invasion.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War

Gawd-Almighty, you're always talking about how immigrants in England are disregarding English law...would you suggest giving a chunk of English territory to them?  That's what you're saying the Ukrainians should do for the Russians!

If you know of a way to get the Russians to go home, it would be appreciated.

I’ve never believed in wars. And that’s all I can say.

You can see how brainwashed we westerners are.   my whole life was "The Russians did it" everything and anything was blamed on Russia.   it becomes a thing to joke about in our everyday life.  it's raining, blame the Russians    

Before this war, Ukraine was known to be one of the most corrupted countries and yet now?  Suddenly it's full of heroes being led by freaking superman..      

Anyone who believes this absolute BS  isn't very bright when every government and every media outlet is pushing something look into it it's not even that hard.  

We all know the media and governments lie,  they have lied about every war and yet now they are telling us the truth.   oh please!

They are telling us Putin is losing and so getting desperate, they are setting us up for a false flag that will once again be done by our own governments.

They said there are no Biolabs when everyone knows there is, now they have admitted it and say they are worried in case  Putin gets his hands on them. That is the perfect set-up for a FF and people will once again fall for it.  

Putin is not losing he is doing exactly what he said he was going to do.   if you watch with detachment you will see how fake so much of this is.  Zelensky has acted his way through this, never misses a photo op. even pauses to wink at the end of his selfie talks  

we have been played again this is the problem when people watch soaps and reality TV coupled with news 24/7  they can't tell the difference between real life and TV life. As TV shows become more dumbed down so did the people who watch them.

Not nearly as brainwashed as Russians, at least we can try and look into things if we can be bothered, Russians for the most part either can't or definately can't be asked.
Do you know anyone living in the separatist areas or anywhere in the Ukraine for that matter?
The Russians have been agitating for years and supporting the rebels who started all this with an attack on a police station. Most people there speak Russian in everyday life but then so do a lot of cities and areas in Ukraine, hardly suprising when Russia was their lord and master for so many years and the de facto language was Russian. Many people can switch easily from Russian to Ukrainian and vice versa, so Putin is not saving the Russian speakers. Many people in those regions are fighting for Ukraine. Russia did exactly the same in Georgia and now own a couple of 'autonomous' regions there - they said they were saving those people as well. Now both 'autonomous regions have Russian military based there whether the people like it or not. The only genocide is what Russia is doing. Take a look at Finland/Russia 1939 - Russia has written the book on stealing other people's territory.

Lolly wrote:You can see how brainwashed we westerners are.   my whole life was "The Russians did it" everything and anything was blamed on Russia.   it becomes a thing to joke about in our everyday life.  it's raining, blame the Russians  

Give it up IRA.  That was a world ago, when the Russians and America had a real ideological battle.  Now, Russia has deteriorated into organized crime, and they are led by the Gambino’s of the world.

Lolly wrote:Before this war, Ukraine was known to be one of the most corrupted countries and yet now?  Suddenly it's full of heroes being led by freaking superman..

And what has happened?  They have climbed out of the Russian-created shithole of the Russian Mafia, and started to join the civilized world.  To Putin…that’s a no-no.

Lolly wrote:We all know the media and governments lie,  they have lied about every war and yet now they are telling us the truth.   oh please!

Um…not to bring up inconvenient truths, but you are doing media right now.

Lolly wrote:They are telling us Putin is losing and so getting desperate, they are setting us up for a false flag that will once again be done by our own governments.

Putin is playing the centuries old Russian game…if your people don’t obey, beat the shit out of ‘em.  See, Bloody Sunday Massacre of 1905, https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/bloody-sunday-massacre-in-russia  Only, the Ukrainians are not Russians.

Lolly wrote:Putin is not losing he is doing exactly what he said he was going to do.

Putin is doing exactly what Tzar Nicholas II did in 1905 – only in the service of organized crime - and he may well pay the price for it. Look into his eyes...nowadays, there's fear there.

Ukraine was and still is overrun with neo nazis.


















Cancelled Bristol Uni Sociology Professor David Miller Picks Apart NATO Ukraine Spin and RT Censorship
Propaganda, Character Assassination & the Campaign Against Prof David Miller











 Nato has pushed and pushed and broken all the agreements made with Russia.  












Putin is breaking away from the woke left/liberal western world. He banned Soros's so-called charities from Russia.  shame we didn't do the same and we would not have men wining at women's sport and the world just accepting it because the media said we must.  












Sorry about the age restrictions

We could argue day in and day out but the truth is  I won't convince you and you certainly won't convince me   .. Time will tell on this one.

Then we have the Biolabs

This is from 2009..  a strange outbreak in Ukraine.  














Anthrax

lolly wrote:You can see how brainwashed we westerners are.   my whole life was "The Russians did it" everything and anything was blamed on Russia.   it becomes a thing to joke about in our everyday life.  it's raining, blame the Russians    

Before this war, Ukraine was known to be one of the most corrupted countries and yet now?  Suddenly it's full of heroes being led by freaking superman..      

Anyone who believes this absolute BS  isn't very bright when every government and every media outlet is pushing something look into it it's not even that hard.  

We all know the media and governments lie,  they have lied about every war and yet now they are telling us the truth.   oh please!

They are telling us Putin is losing and so getting desperate, they are setting us up for a false flag that will once again be done by our own governments.

They said there are no Biolabs when everyone knows there is, now they have admitted it and say they are worried in case  Putin gets his hands on them. That is the perfect set-up for a FF and people will once again fall for it.  

Putin is not losing he is doing exactly what he said he was going to do.   if you watch with detachment you will see how fake so much of this is.  Zelensky has acted his way through this, never misses a photo op. even pauses to wink at the end of his selfie talks  

we have been played again this is the problem when people watch soaps and reality TV coupled with news 24/7  they can't tell the difference between real life and TV life. As TV shows become more dumbed down so did the people who watch them.

Sounds about right to me!


You cannot trust what our govts or the main stream media say... Iraq WMDs, Bin Laden in Afghanistan etc, and they were supplying arms to ISIS while telling us that they were supporting friendly rebels against Assad who was trying to stop ISIS brutal reign of terror/death/destruction...

lolly wrote:Then we have the Biolabs

This is from 2009..  a strange outbreak in Ukraine.  

https://twitter.com/i/status/1502164869277097995

https://twitter.com/i/status/1504208896642191368

Anthrax

https://twitter.com/i/status/1504483718278262792

RT is not exactly a reliable news source, especially in these trying times of Russian-inspired war.  It is a state controlled Russian news source, funded by the tax budget of the Russian government.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network) Which says a lot about your employer, the Internet Research Agency (IRA), which is a state-controlled, media-hacking manipulator.  https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-troll-factory-hacking/31076160.html

But the interesting fact is - as you, yourself, point out - your source is from 2009.  In 2009 the Ukrainian president was Viktor Yushchenko.  After allegations of election fraud, in 2010 he was followed by Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych, a continuation of the corrupt collection of Russian oligarchs that still rule in Russia. One after the other...it got a bit tiresome.  Yanukovych was removed from office in Ukraine as a part of the Revolution of Dignity, in 2014.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych He currently resides in exile, in good ole Russia.

You have just confirmed my argument: under Russian domination, Ukraine was a corrupt state.  But that is not the case anymore, is it?  That is the motive behind Putin's war.  He wants to restore that corruptible situation...and of course, restore the corruption.  The Russian Mafia lives off of corruption. Putin is just another Capo dei capi. It's not very creative, is it?

It is because Russia cannot control the Ukrainian state – the result of Yanukovych's removal - that Putin has chosen to invade Ukraine.  In other words, because Ukraine wants to take a high moral road, Russia tries to paint them with crimes that were invented and ordered in the Kremlin.  What an ironic joke, if Putin could get away with that!!

No, my dear IRA agent, we're not buying it.

"...Yanukovych was removed from office in Ukraine as a part of the Revolution of Dignity, in 2014. .."


This happened after he refused to sign a treaty with the EU and then the EU backed a load of agitators to stage a coup of "regime change" so they could install their own corrupt pro EU puppets to power...

And remember when the police were allegedly shooting protesters with sniper rifles...?


https://vid1.ria.ru/ig/infografika/golova/inter_en/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mJhJ6hks0Jg


This is the BBC newsnight piece on the issue.

New York Times wrote:As Russia’s Military Stumbles, Its Adversaries Take Note

CONSTANTA, Romania — President Vladimir Putin could still reduce cities in Ukraine to rubble, officials say. But European countries say they are not as intimidated by Russian ground forces as they were in the past.
When it comes to war, generals say that “mass matters.”

But nearly two weeks into President Vladimir V. Putin’s invasion of Ukraine — Europe’s largest land war since 1945 — the image of a Russian military as one that other countries should fear, let alone emulate, has been shattered.

Ukraine’s military, which is dwarfed by the Russian force in most ways, has somehow managed to stymie its opponent. Ukrainian soldiers have killed more than 3,000 Russian troops, according to conservative estimates by American officials.

Ukraine has shot down military transport planes carrying Russian paratroopers, downed helicopters and blown holes in Russia’s convoys using American anti-tank missiles and armed drones supplied by Turkey, these officials said, citing confidential U.S. intelligence assessments.

The Russian soldiers have been plagued by poor morale as well as fuel and food shortages. Some troops have crossed the border with MREs (meals ready to eat) that expired in 2002, U.S. and other Western officials said, and others have surrendered and sabotaged their own vehicles to avoid fighting.

To be sure, most military experts say that Russia will eventually subdue Ukraine’s army. Russia’s military, at 900,000 active-duty troops and two million reservists, is eight times the size of Ukraine’s. Russia has advanced fighter planes, a formidable navy and marines capable of multiple amphibious landings, as they proved early in the invasion when they launched from the Black Sea and headed toward the city of Mariupol.

And the Western governments that have spoken openly about Russia’s military failings are eager to spread the word to help damage Russian morale and bolster the Ukrainians.

But with each day that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky holds out, the scenes of a frustrated Russia pounding, but not managing to finish off, a smaller opponent dominate screens around the world.

The result: Militaries in Europe that once feared Russia say they are not as intimidated by Russian ground forces as they were in the past.

The simple fact is, an Army (or any military force) doesn’t run on its stomach, it runs on its heart.  Nothing can motivate a military unit less than seeing its leaders living in mansions and yachts, while it shivers in light summer uniforms and runs out of food and ammunition.

This is the failure of all corrupt nations: their muscle does not extend to their reach.  Organized crime works on interpersonal incentives   The capo promises a favor, and the henchmen do the capo’s business.  But this only works on the interpersonal level.

As soon as you try this on the mass level, you find a certain ‘we/they’ sets in.    The ‘we’ are the people with resources and power, while the ‘they’ are the people who are left out, and who need the power and resources to make the mass work.  That's why organized crime has never worked on the national level.

The capo must tell the lieutenant what exchange is expected.  When you hear the order from someone two or three steps removed from the capo, it has less meaning.  And, when you find the sub-capos and lieutenants have ripped off the resources, and they are putting the power to work building their castles and yachts, the motivation goes out the window.  A certain where is mine? sets in.

See, it only works when some overriding force or motivation captivates the hearts of the soldiers.  Greed doesn’t work.  If you are not rewarding the soldiers - who after all, are the one's who die - you are disincentivizing them.  Moreover, if they see the capos and lieutenants skimming off the system the resources needs to do the job, the resentment redoubles.  Not only are they not rewarding you, they are taking for themselves the resources to succeed at the job.

The once powerful Russian Army is going through this mental calculation as we speak.  Russian soldiers see the capos and lieutenants collecting their castles and yachts, while their tanks are in a foreign country, running out of gas, and they are without food and ammunition.  A certain Why bother? sets in.

Meanwhile, this is Putin’s palace, on the Black Sea:



This is a Russian billionaire’s new yacht (note: helicopter, on forward deck, awaiting orders):



Now, imagine the sentiment of the average Russian soldier, expected to waste his life on Putin’s War in Ukraine.

These are the children the Russian soldier is expected to kill in Ukraine, to support the palaces and yachts.



All for bigger palaces, and longer yachts.  I fear that Russia is heading for another Nicholas II-takedown.

The Russian military is failing at all levels.  They keep announcing a change in strategy, but it's a retreat all along the front.

In an autocracy, you can't speak truth to power.  Especially when that last payment didn't go for ammo or planes, but for your bigger yacht.  There's no dressing a pig in a pink pinafore.  So you lie to the boss and call it a change in strategy.



One thing that we've learned is that the Russian leaders don't keep up their weapons, nor their military.  A nuclear weapon is a most sensitive device, requiring frequent servicing and warhead replacement.  I'm betting that the Russians haven't kept up their nuclear stockpile, just as they haven't kept up their tanks, helicopters and airplanes.  The money has gone to palaces and yachts.

No disrespect toward the Ukrainians, but if the Russians can't hold them back they sure as hell don't stand a chance against NATO. God forbid that we should find ourselves in a nuclear war, but I'm betting that if the Russian nuclear weapons are as poorly kept as the rest of the Russian hardware, it will be short work.  And they've never even bothered to answer for our Star Wars defense system.  

You’ll never get to the bottom of anything!!! Stay tuned! Stay anxious!



Or tune out and enjoy the life that you live.

The simple truth is this -- if Putin got along great with his neighbours, sought peace, and didn't threaten anybody, he'd be the good guy.

Ben Reilly wrote:The simple truth is this -- if Putin got along great with his neighbours, sought peace, and didn't threaten anybody, he'd be the good guy.

Did it? Is he? Were they? Will he?

Who knows. I don’t.

eddie wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:The simple truth is this -- if Putin got along great with his neighbours, sought peace, and didn't threaten anybody, he'd be the good guy.

Did it? Is he? Were they? Will he?

Who knows. I don’t.

It's not like the Ukraine started bombing him, or killing off his civilians. Ukrainians in the streets have been documenting this themselves.

Ben wrote:I've forgotten what happened the last time Britain ignored a European dictator invading another country; can you refresh my memory?

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

– George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905).