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Let's talk about Putin

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

I know the site is really inactive lately, but I was hoping to see some discussion of the latest Russian events tonight. So I'll start the discussion.

I remember more than 22 years ago, when Sen. John McCain was runnings against Texas Gov. George W. Bush for the Republican presidental nomination. Bush famous said of Vladimir Putin, "I looked in his eyes and saw his soul." McCain's sharp retort was, "I looked in his eyes and saw KGB."

Putin, let's not forget, has run Russia since the late 1990s. He's stood for president and for PM and somehow, he's never lost.

He's known to have political opponents, critics and journalists jailed on trumped-up charges or assassinated.

He re-annexed Crimea last decade and has had designs on Ukraine for years. Now his regime is implying that Sweden and Finland had better not consider joining Nato or they might be attacked.

His Internet skunkworks are well-known. A great number of Facebook groups and pages that shit-stir in U.S. politics were found to have originated in Russia. His internet operatives interfered in Brexit and many other elections in Europe and the U.S.

I read earlier today that a former CIA chief (or maybe MI6) said Putin is isolated and ill-advised, seeing himself as a messiah figure and simultaneaously deeply frustrated at the lack of progress on his agenda.

That agenda is obviously to increase his own power at the expense of his neighbors. He can't be a cooperative leader; he leads to feed his own ego. And finally, the world has a good-enough excuse to get rid of him.

_________________
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- Bertrand Russell
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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:56 pm



Ukraine has been bombing the majority Russian region of Donbass for 8 years!!!


Killing dozens of thousands of civilians!!!



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“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

'The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.'  — George Orwell
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Post by Original Quill Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Ukraine has been bombing the majority Russian region of Donbass for 8 years!!!

Killing dozens of thousands of civilians!!!

They are not civilians. They are the Russian Army. That's what you do when another country invades your territory - it's called war.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:42 am




No .. over 30,000 civilians have been killed... And the separatists in Donbass are Ukrainian and formed their own defence force.



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Post by Original Quill Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:05 am

Tommy Monk wrote:No .. over 30,000 civilians have been killed... And the separatists in Donbass are Ukrainian and formed their own defence force.

Correction: over 30,000 Russian soldiers have been killed. This war has been going on since 2014, and that's about the tally you would expect from Russia in 8-years.

The way Russians fight a war, by piling up casualties until the adversary has no more to sacrifice ... in eight years you would expect about 30,000 Russian soldiers to have died.

We, in the west, work smarter, not harder...and, it is our technology that is flowing to the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians might well end up invading Russia and encircling Moscow. Wink They are admirable soldiers.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:13 am



No... 30,000 civilians in Donbas region killed/wounded by Ukrainian soldiers!!!


Since 2014.



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Post by Original Quill Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:38 am

Tommy Monk wrote:No... 30,000 civilians in Donbas region killed/wounded by Ukrainian soldiers!!!

Since 2014.

Are you referring to the Russian-occupied Donbas regions?  Putin has merely filled the region with military units, and then relabeled the response of Ukrainians, offensive - that he, Putin, started.  The Ukrainians are simply defending their country.

You have to understand how dictators twist truth.  First, they take over the media...literally, they take possession of the keys to the factory.  Once you control the machines, you control what the factory produces.

The media factory then produces thought.  This is important, because thought precedes action.  If you can shape thought, you can shape action.  Russia is simply manufacturing this war.

With their control of thought, dictators redefine things: they switch the labels.  They turn them around, and label specific actions - such as the invasion of Crimea and Donbas - as good or defense.  In this case Russia has simply relabeled a war of their own aggression, as a war of liberation.

Ultimately, the consumers consume what the factory manufactures, and tommy ends up consuming his chocolate - cream news.  Simple test - ask yourself: if Russia is the victim, why aren't both sides fighting this war on the streets of Moscow?

Normally, the victim in a geopolitical conflict is the nation invaded.  It's hard to be the invader, and be the one caught with your hand in the cookie-urn.  It takes some explaining to have a mouth full of cookie crumbs, and still be mumbling that you are merely protecting the cookies!  So far, Russia has not adequately convinced anyone that it is the wounded duck.  If it's protecting the Donbas, what is their army doing over in Kiev?  Let's talk about Putin - Page 3 2190311264

Which brings to mind: How about bringing the fight to Moscow?

We would mind seeing a few Ukrainian missiles lobbed at the Russian capitol. Perhaps they wouldn't be so quick to start wars if it were to cost 'em.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Vintage Tue Apr 19, 2022 1:58 pm

When the USSR was dissolved, borders were agreed with the states that had been part of it as they are today. The fact that it was Russian policy to send groups of ethnic Russians to all parts of the old USSR means that every old state has a minority of Russian speaking peoples, does Putin intend to 'save' all those minorities from persecution in whatever country that  has a minority of Russian speakers that means Poland, Lithuania, Estonia etc.
Once the borders had been agreed they are recognised as sovereign nations anyone physically attacking government forces or institutions are seen as rebels and treated accordingly by any government. It doesn't help when a third party is instigating and supporting the rebels with armaments and soldiers not to mention handing out 5 million Russian passports to people in the area whether they wanted them or not just to endenger unrest.

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Post by Original Quill Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:48 pm

The Ukrainians are the intelligentsia of the former USSR.  They have proven that by now.  Give them the numbers and the resources of the Russian Army, and they will win this war with Russia.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by eddie Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Ben wrote:I've forgotten what happened the last time Britain ignored a European dictator invading another country; can you refresh my memory?

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

– George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905).

“Those who keep dwelling on the past never really move on”

“Those who keep dwelling on the past are dwelling on stories that may not even be true”

“Those who keep looking to the past aren’t concentrating on the present”

And so on and so on....

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but trouble that makes rebels. ”

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 23, 2022 2:48 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Ben wrote:I've forgotten what happened the last time Britain ignored a European dictator invading another country; can you refresh my memory?

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

– George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905).

“Those who keep dwelling on the past never really move on”

“Those who keep dwelling on the past are dwelling on stories that may not even be true”

“Those who keep looking to the past aren’t concentrating on the present”

And so on and so on....

On the other hand, if you ignore the past you keep making the same mistakes over and over.

_________________
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation ... it is common to wish well to oneself, but in our technically unified world, wishing well to oneself is sure to be futile unless it is combined with wishing well to others."

- Bertrand Russell
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Post by eddie Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:19 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Ben wrote:I've forgotten what happened the last time Britain ignored a European dictator invading another country; can you refresh my memory?

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

– George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905).

“Those who keep dwelling on the past never really move on”

“Those who keep dwelling on the past are dwelling on stories that may not even be true”

“Those who keep looking to the past aren’t concentrating on the present”

And so on and so on....

On the other hand, if you ignore the past you keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Hmmmm. The world keeps making the same mistakes over and over. I don’t see any change apart from people don’t use gas chambers to kill lots of people anymore.

Perhaps gas prices went up.

_________________
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but trouble that makes rebels. ”

~ Ruth Messinger
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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:24 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Ben wrote:I've forgotten what happened the last time Britain ignored a European dictator invading another country; can you refresh my memory?

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

– George Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905).

“Those who keep dwelling on the past never really move on”

“Those who keep dwelling on the past are dwelling on stories that may not even be true”

“Those who keep looking to the past aren’t concentrating on the present”

And so on and so on....

On the other hand, if you ignore the past you keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Hmmmm. The world keeps making the same mistakes over and over. I don’t see any change apart from people don’t use gas chambers to kill lots of people anymore.

Perhaps gas prices went up.

Loads of things have changed, are you kidding? Think back to childhood and everything that's changed since then.

People constantly reference what has happened to make decisions about what they want to happen in the future. We don't always make the right decisions, but we don't give up. We don't get anywhere if we refuse to learn.

_________________
"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation ... it is common to wish well to oneself, but in our technically unified world, wishing well to oneself is sure to be futile unless it is combined with wishing well to others."

- Bertrand Russell
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Post by eddie Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:35 pm

Leave the past behind and stay in the present, that’s all you need.

That’s all children have and they are the most open and free (happy) people I ever meet.

Something to be said for that.

_________________
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but trouble that makes rebels. ”

~ Ruth Messinger
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Post by Original Quill Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:53 pm

Leave the past behind and stay in the present...but that's not all you need or want.  Equip yourself with a good memory.  Have good instincts.  Keep your eyes open...especially at night.  Keep your ear, and your nose, to the ground.  And...prepare yourself for what's coming down the pike.

Other than that, have a good day.

Returning to subject: I don't know why the Ukrainians don't learn from Sun Tzu: Carry the fight to your enemy!  As long as you are fighting on your own territory, you are losers waiting to lose.  Give the Russians something to care about, let them see what cost is all about.

The Ukrainians are the élite-of-the-élite of the former Soviet Union.  And of course, with western technology, they are fighting with much superior tools (need I say more?).  With all the exploitation and corruption going on in Moscow, frankly I don't think the Russians have kept up their weapons stockpile, let alone advanced their design (their avionics still suck).

They certainly haven't kept up morale and purpose within their Army.  Plus, without the Ukrainians they are clueless.  When a Russian tank breaks down, only Ukrainian mechanics can fix it - that's why half the Ukrainian tanks are thanks to the Russian Army.  As far as Putin's nuclear threats, I don't think he wants a radioactive wasteland around the Moscow City Limits - and frankly, have they kept up their warheads, given the exploitation and skimming of the Russian Mafia?  I'm betting Putin's boys took the money and bought a few more yachts and palaces.

FCS, this isn't democracy vs autocracy...this is democracy vs. organized crime.  Put Putin and Sergey Lavrov in Guantanamo, and let's get back to the good life.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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