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A thought for discussion

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Post by eddie Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post a quote, famous or otherwise and let’s discuss it, see if we agree, disagree or we can improve upon the quote.

I’ll start with this one:


A thought for discussion  - Page 2 C6506910



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Post by Maddog Sat May 01, 2021 1:58 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. – Herbert Spencer

Yes, Herbert Spencer, darling of the south, proponent of Social Darwinism, and father of post-slavery racism.

Darling of the UK, not that it matter to me.

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat May 01, 2021 2:36 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:The non-aggression principle (NAP), also called the non-aggression axiom, is a concept in which "aggression", defined as initiating or threatening any forceful interference with either an individual or their property, is inherently wrong. ... In contrast to pacifism, the NAP does not forbid forceful defense.

This is the basic ideology that binds libertarians who could be anarchists, minarchists, anarcho-capitalists, voluntarists or capital "L" Libertarians (those in the party itself).  

I know this. My right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose; i.e., do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn't harm anyone besides possibly yourself, i.e. my favorite way of putting it: "A free society doesn't look for reasons to allow people to do things, it demands a logical reason for not allowing people to do something."

But this isn't all that binds American libertarians. They are all equally outraged at the banning of Four Loco, for one thing. They all LOVE gold. I don't know if I said that before.

They're fond of baseball caps. They range in age from late teens to early 50s, and they're almost all men. They have an interest in guns and can obsessively recite obscure facts about them. They think non-libertarians worship "the state" while being unaware of the fact that they themselves worship Elon Musk.

They know who Ayn Rand was, and a bit about her. They probably haven't read "Atlas Shrugged" and they probably haven't even heard of "The Fountainhead." But they shouldn't read either book, because as Dorothy Parker famously said of the former, it's "not a book to be tossed lightly aside. It should be thrown with great force."

They spend a lot of time on mises.org. They care deeply about keeping the government off people's backs, apparently, but really only talk about taxes and business regulation (rather than stuff like abortion and gay marriage).

And one of their "great thinkers" wrote a book not too long ago trying to make the case that people were more free under monarchies than they are under democratic governments, because of something about taxes, superior genetics, and taxes.

They don't really care for democracy -- they call it "two wolves and a sheep voting for what's for dinner." One libertarian I knew actually felt that the act of voting was a violation of the NAP.

Many of them believe the United States was a better country under the Articles of Confederation than under its current constitution.

Ask me for more about libertarians if you have the inclination and the wherewithall.

I don't need to ask you about libertarians.  

I'm too busy correcting you about them.

You have a funny definition of "correcting" then, because you haven't corrected anything I've said.

Anyway:

A thought for discussion  - Page 2 1wew2jbdzma51

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“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

– Karl Popper
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Post by Original Quill Sat May 01, 2021 4:17 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, Herbert Spencer, darling of the south, proponent of Social Darwinism, and father of post-slavery racism.

Darling of the UK, not that it matter to me.

Spencer was an English philosopher, biologist, anthropologist, and sociologist famous for his hypothesis of social Darwinism, whereby superior physical force shapes history. This provided a ready escape for southerners, who had to answer for their institution of slavery, and racism thereafter. If it was all due to natural selection, then blacks were responsible for their own station in life--never mind, 300-years of slavery and social conditioning.

Hence, Spencer was the darling of the south...probably still is.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Sat May 01, 2021 4:40 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I don't need to ask you about libertarians.  

I'm too busy correcting you about them.

You have a funny definition of "correcting" then, because you haven't corrected anything I've said.

Anyway:

A thought for discussion  - Page 2 1wew2jbdzma51

Yeah. I have no feelings either. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Ben Reilly Wed May 05, 2021 5:20 am

How about this one?

"Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

- Bernie Sanders

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“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

– Karl Popper
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Post by Maddog Wed May 05, 2021 9:01 am

Ben Reilly wrote:How about this one?

"Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

- Bernie Sanders

So labor is rewarded with capital. Sounds fine to me.

Or does Bernie think labor isn't rewarded with capital?

To be honest, I think Bernie is talking out of both sides of his ass.

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pa·ter·nal·ism

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Post by Ben Reilly Fri May 07, 2021 3:52 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:How about this one?

"Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

- Bernie Sanders

So labor is rewarded with capital.  Sounds fine to me.

Or does Bernie think labor isn't rewarded with capital?

To be honest, I think Bernie is talking out of both sides of his ass.

Sorry -- don't know how I managed to do this, but that quote was actually by Abraham Lincoln!

_________________
“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

– Karl Popper
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Post by Original Quill Fri May 07, 2021 4:33 pm

The quote doesn't say that "labor is rewarded with capital".  Labor is rewarded with wages.  

The quote says only that capital only comes from (is the fruit of…) labor...probably in the form of savings (I'm not familiar with the quote). Savings, then, with the proper investment, transforms into capital.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Fri May 07, 2021 4:39 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So labor is rewarded with capital.  Sounds fine to me.

Or does Bernie think labor isn't rewarded with capital?

To be honest, I think Bernie is talking out of both sides of his ass.

Sorry -- don't know how I managed to do this, but that quote was actually by Abraham Lincoln!

Then Abe is talking out of both sides of his ass.

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pa·ter·nal·ism

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Post by Maddog Fri May 07, 2021 4:42 pm

"Again, as has already been said, there is not of necessity any such thing as the free hired laborer being fixed to that condition for life. Many independent men everywhere in these States a few years back in their lives were hired laborers. The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him. This is the just and generous and prosperous system which opens the way to all, gives hope to all, and consequent energy and progress and improvement of condition to all. No men living are more worthy to be trusted than those who toil up from poverty; none less inclined to take or touch aught which they have not honestly earned. Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which if surrendered will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them till all of liberty shall be lost."



More from that quote of Abe. Makes much more sense when you take the whole speech in context.

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Post by Ben Reilly Fri May 07, 2021 4:46 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So labor is rewarded with capital.  Sounds fine to me.

Or does Bernie think labor isn't rewarded with capital?

To be honest, I think Bernie is talking out of both sides of his ass.

Sorry -- don't know how I managed to do this, but that quote was actually by Abraham Lincoln!

Then Abe is talking out of both sides of his ass.

To me, his point was that society shouldn't value those who have money (say through inheritance) over workers, because money is nothing without the labor it pays for, and because money ultimately comes from work, not the other way around.

I mean, the story we like is the guy who came from next to nothing and built a successful company. The story that bores us is the guy who was born rich and managed to add to his wealth by prudently investing it. It's human nature to think/hope that hard work will be rewarded, and that the interesting part ends when the wealth has been won, rather than after that part of the story.

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“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”

– Karl Popper
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Post by eddie Fri May 07, 2021 4:55 pm

How about this, for a thought-provoking quote, which makes one admit a truth they may not like...that it’s not just okay to contradict oneself, it’s a must!


”Do I contradict myself? Very well; I contradict myself. I am vast, I contain multitudes”
~ Walt Whitman

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”Do I contradict myself? Very well; I contradict myself. I am vast, I contain multitudes”
~ Walt Whitman
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Post by Original Quill Fri May 07, 2021 5:14 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Then Abe is talking out of both sides of his ass.

To me, his point was that society shouldn't value those who have money (say through inheritance) over workers, because money is nothing without the labor it pays for, and because money ultimately comes from work, not the other way around.

I mean, the story we like is the guy who came from next to nothing and built a successful company. The story that bores us is the guy who was born rich and managed to add to his wealth by prudently investing it. It's human nature to think/hope that hard work will be rewarded, and that the interesting part ends when the wealth has been won, rather than after that part of the story.

Success in a market system is just blind luck...being in the right place, at the right time. So, out of the four elements of production—land, labor, capital and ingenuity—why should the power and glory go to the capitalist? Some say: because the capitalist can withdraw his capital, and there will be nothing. But labor can do that too, and it’s called a strike…uh-oh, frowned upon in America, but its just as legitimate as the capitalist striking the investment. Land can do the same, and of course if the inventor doesn’t work his/her magic, nobody gets anything.

So, to me the words of ole Abe are sophomoric, and well … Republican.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

Original Quill

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Post by Maddog Fri May 07, 2021 5:20 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Then Abe is talking out of both sides of his ass.

To me, his point was that society shouldn't value those who have money (say through inheritance) over workers, because money is nothing without the labor it pays for, and because money ultimately comes from work, not the other way around.

I mean, the story we like is the guy who came from next to nothing and built a successful company. The story that bores us is the guy who was born rich and managed to add to his wealth by prudently investing it. It's human nature to think/hope that hard work will be rewarded, and that the interesting part ends when the wealth has been won, rather than after that part of the story.

I posted the rest of Abe's point. Cool

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pa·ter·nal·ism

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The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Post by Maddog Fri May 07, 2021 5:24 pm

https://www.tiktok.com/@kaleighs_mom/video/6946995693160533253

Not really a quote, but a position on equal rights. Cool Cool

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