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A chilling quote about Tory philosophy

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Post by Andy Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:49 am

"When plunder becomes way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorises it & a moral code that glorifies it."

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Post by gelico Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:58 pm

Andy wrote:"When plunder becomes way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorises it & a moral code that glorifies it."


Have the tories turned islamic?


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Post by Andy Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:17 pm

I think it relates to their über Capitalist ethos.
Its a euphemism for pure , unadulterated greed.

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:22 pm




Sounds more like the left wing mantra of taking everyone's money with high taxes and state taking ownership of everything...



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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:06 pm

Andy wrote:"When plunder becomes way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorises it & a moral code that glorifies it."

It's Bastiat and refers to governments confiscating wealth by force through taxation.

Libertarians use this quote all of the time.  

Some Tories may use this quote to define Labour members I guess, but Tories aren't libertarians by any stretch.

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Post by Original Quill Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:37 pm

Andy wrote:I think it relates to their über Capitalist ethos.
Its a euphemism for pure , unadulterated greed.

It is the dark part of libertarianism, that they don't want to talk about: what happens when you actually achieve liberty?

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:41 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Andy wrote:I think it relates to their über Capitalist ethos.
Its a euphemism  for pure , unadulterated  greed.

It is the dark part of libertarianism, that they don't want to talk about: what happens when you actually achieve liberty?

Andy thinks the quote defines Tories, not that it's used by Tories.

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Post by Original Quill Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:12 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It is the dark part of libertarianism, that they don't want to talk about: what happens when you actually achieve liberty?

Andy thinks the quote defines Tories, not that it's used by Tories.  

Nevertheless.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:15 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Andy thinks the quote defines Tories, not that it's used by Tories.  

Nevertheless.

Are you asking what happens with less state sponsored plunder?

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Post by Original Quill Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:29 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Nevertheless.

Are you asking what happens with less state sponsored plunder?

No.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Are you asking what happens with less state sponsored plunder?

No.

Good.

Maybe you're learning.

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:38 pm

The state doesn't plunder; plunder means taking something you haven't earned, and keeping it.

The state does take a portion of some people's earnings, but it earns that portion by providing services, and it doesn't keep it; it spends it on improving living conditions for the people it represents.

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:44 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:The state doesn't plunder; plunder means taking something you haven't earned, and keeping it.

The state does take a portion of some people's earnings, but it earns that portion by providing services, and it doesn't keep it; it spends it on improving living conditions for the people it represents.


& a moral code that glorifies it."

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:03 pm

Nobody gets rich working a government job. The top-paid federal employee in the U.S., the president, makes about half as much per year as a Hollywood plastic surgeon.

To equate taxation with plunder when nobody's even lining their pockets with tax money is ridiculous.

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:12 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Nobody gets rich working a government job. The top-paid federal employee in the U.S., the president, makes about half as much per year as a Hollywood plastic surgeon.

To equate taxation with plunder when nobody's even lining their pockets with tax money is ridiculous.

It's small scale plunder.

Tell me if I take a dollar from you and give you an apple, have I committed a crime?

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:21 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Nobody gets rich working a government job. The top-paid federal employee in the U.S., the president, makes about half as much per year as a Hollywood plastic surgeon.

To equate taxation with plunder when nobody's even lining their pockets with tax money is ridiculous.

It's small scale plunder.  

Tell me if I take a dollar from you and give you an apple, have I committed a crime?

No, you've committed a dick move. Taxation isn't a crime, but it is a dick move. The only problem is, that's the only way society works -- the only way to have a nation-state.

We'd all hate it if we had to prove we had crime insurance before a cop would intervene in our mugging, or fire insurance before a firefighter would pull us out of our burning houses, or war insurance before the army would stop an invading force from killing us.

It would be a major bottleneck if you had to proved you'd paid toward the construction of a road before you could drive on it, or that you'd paid toward the operation of the education system before you were allowed to enroll your children in school.

That's why taxation can't be voluntary. It's not ideal to have to fork over part of your earnings to the government to pay for these things, particularly if you don't use them, but it's also not ideal to live in a place where you can't even walk down the sidewalk unless you've proven you're entitled to, because you paid to use it.

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:32 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's small scale plunder.  

Tell me if I take a dollar from you and give you an apple, have I committed a crime?

No, you've committed a dick move. Taxation isn't a crime, but it is a dick move. The only problem is, that's the only way society works -- the only way to have a nation-state.

We'd all hate it if we had to prove we had crime insurance before a cop would intervene in our mugging, or fire insurance before a firefighter would pull us out of our burning houses, or war insurance before the army would stop an invading force from killing us.

It would be a major bottleneck if you had to proved you'd paid toward the construction of a road before you could drive on it, or that you'd paid toward the operation of the education system before you were allowed to enroll your children in school.

That's why taxation can't be voluntary. It's not ideal to have to fork over part of your earnings to the government to pay for these things, particularly if you don't use them, but it's also not ideal to live in a place where you can't even walk down the sidewalk unless you've proven you're entitled to, because you paid to use it.

And I agree that we need some dick moves. But let's error on the side of fewer dick moves.

More Bastiat, Less Marx.

Let me ask you another question. Should taxpayers build stadiums for sports teams that are worth billions?

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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:52 pm

Fuck, no. But don't they vote to do that, anyway?

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Post by Maddog Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:49 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Fuck, no. But don't they vote to do that, anyway?

Sometimes. But should the system even allow for that?

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Post by Ben Reilly Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:03 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Fuck, no. But don't they vote to do that, anyway?

Sometimes. But should the system even allow for that?

I can't think of a good reason not to allow it. Obviously some people think a new stadium would be a good idea, for any number of reasons, both good and stupid (in my opinion, of course). But in general, I would prefer wealth redistribution to help people who have very little rather than people who have more than they know what to do with.

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Post by Maddog Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:45 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Sometimes. But should the system even allow for that?

I can't think of a good reason not to allow it. Obviously some people think a new stadium would be a good idea, for any number of reasons, both good and stupid (in my opinion, of course). But in general, I would prefer wealth redistribution to help people who have very little rather than people who have more than they know what to do with.

Because people should only have their money confiscated for necessary public services.

The system Bastiat refers to is confiscation to create a society liked of the confiscators and their supporters.

Pay for cops, feed some hungry kids. Most of us can agree on that. But government has gone so much further than that.

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Post by Original Quill Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:50 pm

Maddog wrote:Because people should only have their money confiscated for necessary public services.

And the people determine "necessary public services". The system is working.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:15 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:Because people should only have their money confiscated for necessary public services.

And the people determine "necessary public services".  The system is working.

But they don't have any real say in how the money is spent.

Nor knowledge really.

He'll, the people in Congress don't even know where the money is going.

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Post by Original Quill Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:00 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

And the people determine "necessary public services".  The system is working.

But they don't have any real say in how the money is spent.  

Nor knowledge really.

He'll, the people in Congress don't even know where the money is going.

Yes, but people have a say in the programs they endorse. Unless it's Georgia or Texas, their vote means something.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Andy Wed May 05, 2021 7:29 pm

I think this sums up Conservative philosophy perfectly.
A chilling quote about Tory philosophy Fb_im174

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Post by Tommy Monk Thu May 06, 2021 3:54 pm




Only in the eyes of an idiot like you hand shandy...



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Post by Original Quill Thu May 06, 2021 4:08 pm

Andy wrote:I think this sums up Conservative  philosophy  perfectly.
A chilling quote about Tory philosophy Fb_im174

On-point, Andy. Money over human quality-of-life is the RW creado. It brings about Donald Trump's and their parade of caged babies, not defending the nation, and begetting depressions.

Reminds me of that old Pete Seeger song: ...when will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?

Mad

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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