Why conservatives hate immigration

Let’s be honest, today’s conservatives are blatantly anti-immigrant.  Trump and the Republicans couch it as: They're rapists...they're drug dealers...they're criminals!, but that's just to give vent to the fact that he doesn't like immigrants.  In the UK, the influx of immigrants has given rise to another sentiment: They are gangs, who sexually abuse our lovely, blond and light-skinned daughters!

In the UK, the Empire has meant a union with nations and people who have given Britain the wealth and prestige that it enjoys.  In the US, immigrants have provided the bulk of the success in terms of wealth and prestige.  Andrew Carnegie built the steel mills that built America.  Levi Strauss clothed most of the workers.  Albert Einstein was arguably the greatest physicists of all time.  Sergey Brin founded Google.  All were immigrants.  Why are particularly conservative people against immigration?

In the aftermath of the presidential victory of the first African-American president, Barack Obama, in 2009, and the taking of both the House and Senate by the Democrats, the Republican National Committee (RNC) went into conference to figure out why their support was waning.    The idea was to come up with issue positions more favorable to the American voter.  They produced a report, and they called it “RNC Election-Autopsy Report”.  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/03/what-you-need-to-read-in-the-rnc-election-autopsy-report/274112/

Then a strange thing happened.  The Republicans said they didn’t want to change—on either issues, or broad sentiments.  They didn’t want to move closer to the American electorate.  So, how, in a modern democracy, do you co-exist with an electorate that has an entirely different viewpoint than yours?  You either change your viewpoint, or you eliminate democracy as your chosen form of government.

Hence, Voter Suppression became the Republican form of government.  Originally, gerrymandering was the only form of voter suppression used in the US.  Gerrymandering is a practice intended to establish an unfair political advantage for a particular party or group by manipulating the boundaries of electoral districts.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering

But, in their divorce from democracy, Republicans went further in their attempts to disenfranchise voters.  They enacted voter suppression laws that adversely impacted districts that traditionally favored Democrats.  They limited dates for registration.  They limited hours for voting in districts where the opposition voted.  In Texas, where an attempt to limit women voters was made, they enacted a requirement that the voter produce a birth certificate; if the birth certificate didn’t match the name on voter rolls, the voter could vote.  Of course, those with married names were ipso facto rejected.

One factor that Republicans noted in voting, was that immigrants tend to vote for the more sympathetic party.  Immigrants are newly arrived, rarely speak the language, nor are they acquainted with the culture and customs.  They thus find that the Democratic party provides much more support, while Republicans tend to favor the already established and the wealthy…the special interests.  The party that allows the immigrants to enter and stay in the US, and eventually vote, becomes the party of the immigrants.

Ergo: this has led the Republican party to look upon immigrants with disfavor.  Limiting immigration has become a mainstay of Republican voter-suppression politics.  Where limiting democracy is the only way you can merge your interests with power, anything that suppresses the opposition voter becomes your platform.

In essence, Republicans are bringing down the house on democracy.

How do Cuban immigrants tend to vote?

What about immigrants from Europe?

You would be surprised how immigrants feel, if you actually knew any.

Maddog wrote:How do Cuban immigrants tend to vote?

Most Cuban immigrants are refugees from a leftist, communist government.  One put it this way:

Fernanda Uriegas wrote:After the Cuban Revolution in 1959, Fidel Castro introduced communism to the island, which resulted in a wave of Cuban immigrants who were against this regime immigrating to the United States.

“That generation suffered a lot because they took away what they had earned through years of work” said Gonzalo Hernández, photographer and family man, who came to the US in his early twenties. His maternal grandfather, the man who introduced solar heaters to Cuba, lost his business to the Cuban revolutionary forces. “One day he came to his factory and it was full of military personnel and they asked him ‘do you work in here?’, he said he was the owner and they said ‘no, you are not the owner anymore, the owner is the people,’”
https://medium.com/@fernanda.uriegas.fabian/why-do-many-cubans-vote-republican-a72c9831bbad

Cubans constitute a special sub-group.  They left because they are RW anti-Marxists.  So, naturally, they identify with the RW party in the US.  Generally they are wealthy, already speak English, and are familiar with the US customs and culture.

Their experience is unique.  They are not escaping poverty, nor are they running from criminal gangs.  They are well-set and ready to join in with the established and wealthy—the special interests in the US.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:How do Cuban immigrants tend to vote?

Most Cuban immigrants are refugees from a leftist, communist government.  One put it this way:

Fernanda Uriegas wrote:After the Cuban Revolution in 1959, Fidel Castro introduced communism to the island, which resulted in a wave of Cuban immigrants who were against this regime immigrating to the United States.

“That generation suffered a lot because they took away what they had earned through years of work” said Gonzalo Hernández, photographer and family man, who came to the US in his early twenties. His maternal grandfather, the man who introduced solar heaters to Cuba, lost his business to the Cuban revolutionary forces. “One day he came to his factory and it was full of military personnel and they asked him ‘do you work in here?’, he said he was the owner and they said ‘no, you are not the owner anymore, the owner is the people,’”
https://medium.com/@fernanda.uriegas.fabian/why-do-many-cubans-vote-republican-a72c9831bbad

Cubans constitute a special sub-group.  They left because they are RW anti-Marxists.  So, naturally, they identify with the RW party in the US.  Generally they are wealthy, already speak English, and are familiar with the US customs and culture.

Their experience is unique.  They are not escaping poverty, nor are they running from criminal gangs.  They are well-set and ready to join in with the established and wealthy—the special interests in the US.

I think you will find many groups that have left left wing regimes to be more right of center.

You know, like Eastern Europeans.

But, if you want to discuss the problem on the southern border, which is just a small part of our immigration process, many conservatives have shitty approach to the problem. It's simply meanspirited.

But in a weird twist, people knew the score and stayed away. Now we have a crisis with Biden now imploring them not to leave their villages and not to come here. He doesn't have any place to put them and is deporting them at a record pace again.

Maddog wrote:But, if you want to discuss the problem on the southern border, which is just a small part of our immigration process, many conservatives have shitty approach to the problem. It's simply meanspirited.

But the real question is, Why are conservatives meanspirited?

It's because they know that with the influx of so many eventual Democratic voters, they will cease to exist as a party.

In the bigger picture, by limiting potential citizens they are trying to select their voters, rather than the voters selecting them. It's inherently undemocratic.

Maddog wrote:But in a weird twist, people knew the score and stayed away. Now we have a crisis with Biden now imploring them not to leave their villages and not to come here. He doesn't have any place to put them and is deporting them at a record pace again.

But it's not meanspirited, to use your word. President Biden simply does not have present logistics, if you will, with which to house and feed the immigrants humanely. It is a catastrophe, but more like a hurricane or an earthquake. The US is temporarily caught unprepared.

When we can, we will engage the wheels of recovery and pick up after. It's a false equivalency to suggest that this situation is the same that Trump faced. Trump exacerbated the situation by increasing the grounds on which he would cage children. Trump wanted to inflict pain, while Biden is doing his best to alleviate any suffering.

Soon, those children at the border will be housed, relatives contacted, and they will be on their way to being valuable contributors to American society. The fact that they won't be voting Republican is the result of Republicans themselves. As I earlier indicated, they could have changed the policies and platform to meet the wishes of the voters. They simply rejected the wishes of the people, and chose to reject majority rule.

I agree that Dems project an image of being more compassionate at times.

That doesn't always equate to being effective or helpful.

Maddog wrote:I agree that Dems project an image of being more compassionate at times.  

That doesn't always equate to being effective or helpful.

That's another debate. The fact is, Democrats appeal to the immigrants. What Republicans are trying to do is eliminate the voters who appeal to the other side.

The minute you try to sculpt your voting population, you are not playing the game according to the rules of democracy. The people are supposed to rule, not the other way around.

That's what autocrats do. I suspect, given the relationship revealed between Putin and Trump, the Russian was running the show for Republicans. Putin has so manipulated and corrupted the Russian voting public, that he has rendered democracy unworkable in the Russian state.

Putin has appointed himself President for the rest of his life. And firstly poisoned, then sent his main opponent to a gulag on a trumped up charge.
'nuff said.

Andy wrote:Putin has appointed himself President for the rest of his life. And firstly poisoned, then sent his main opponent to a gulag on a trumped up charge.
'nuff said.

Is his opponent an immigrant?

Maddog wrote:

Andy wrote:Putin has appointed himself President for the rest of his life. And firstly poisoned, then sent his main opponent to a gulag on a trumped up charge.
'nuff said.

Is his opponent an immigrant?  

I think you are missing the point.

There are several parts of a political system that you can extract/alter to cause a democracy to fail.  One is to extract the opponent, by imprisoning him.  Another is to alter the electoral population, by limiting who can vote to those of your own party.

Obviously, Putin has taken the more extreme step, because in a de facto autocracy, posing as a democracy, you can get away with it.  But, in this thread, we are talking specifically about how the Republican party is trying to alter or sculpt the electorate to tip the scales in their own favor.

We are just discussing the undemocratic path that Republicans are taking.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Is his opponent an immigrant?  

I think you are missing the point.

There are several parts of a political system that you can extract/alter to cause a democracy to fail.  One is to extract the opponent, by imprisoning him.  Another is to alter the electoral population, by limiting who can vote to those of your own party.

Obviously, Putin has taken the more extreme step, because in a de facto autocracy, posing as a democracy, you can get away with it.  But, in this thread, we are talking specifically about how the Republican party is trying to alter or sculpt the electorate to tip the scales in their own favor.

We are just discussing the undemocratic path that Republicans are taking.

I didn't miss anything.

I pointed out the post had nothing to do with the thread.

Andy should start a thread about what an authoritarian ass Putin is.

Then you can post about southerners on there too.

The thread has to do with Republicans who are steering a path away from democracy. Of course, they are trying to limit the electorate, which is illegitimate as limiting voting rights. But, it's greater than that.

What is startling about this is the turn away from democratic principles, and toward tyranny. This nation was founded on rejecting George III, and an autocratic form of government. Instead, it turned to embracing democracy. Now, we are heading right back from whence we came.

Original Quill wrote:The thread has to do with Republicans who are steering a path away from democracy.  Of course, they are trying to limit the electorate, which is illegitimate as limiting voting rights.  But, it's greater than that.

What is startling about this is the turn away from democratic principles, and toward tyranny.  This nation was founded on rejecting George III, and an autocratic form of government.  Instead, it turned to embracing democracy.  Now, we are heading right back from whence we came.

Go back and read the title.

Precisely. The reason is simple...instead of competing in the world of political ideas and policy, Republicans are seeking to limit their competition...whether by eliminating any opponent, or limiting the pool of voters.

That's undemocratic...which is why conservatives hate immigration.

A specialist doctor I saw in Texas is an immigrant from India and considers himself a Republican, because he was quite opposed to Obamacare.

He told me, "I'm a Republican, I hate Obamacare!"

I was like, okay, not getting into a political argument with a man who holds the fate of my esophagus in his hands.

But then he continued: "We should have a single-payer system, like Canada!"

I was like, okay, you're no Republican. But again, not getting into it with you.

***

There is a species of Republican who very quietly loves immigration: The business owners who either want skilled legal immigrants or unskilled illegal immigrants to help their bottom lines.

Let’s change the heading to:

“Why do SOME conservatives hate immigration.”

Otherwise it’s entirely unfair and misleading.

eddie wrote:Let’s change the heading to:

“Why do SOME conservatives hate immigration.”

Otherwise it’s entirely unfair and misleading.

Truth is most folks don't have problems with immigrants that think like them.

eddie wrote:Let’s change the heading to:

“Why do SOME conservatives hate immigration.”

Otherwise it’s entirely unfair and misleading.

Like MD said, most people don't have problems with immigrants. That's why I phrased the title like I did. It's the party, not the 'people' conservatives.

This is a business decision...the problem is, Republican business is trying to achieve tyranny. My original purpose in starting this thread is to show the conservative strategy, alternative to normal marketing strategy, is >> tyranny.

If they went the way of normal marketing, they would switch to a product that the consumer wants. They rejected that. The alternative is, to tell the consumer to take it, and like it! That's tyranny.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:Let’s change the heading to:

“Why do SOME conservatives hate immigration.”

Otherwise it’s entirely unfair and misleading.

Like MD said, most people don't have problems with immigrants.  That's why I phrased the title like I did.  It's the party, not the 'people' conservatives.

This is a business decision...the problem is, Republican business is trying to achieve tyranny.  My original purpose in starting this thread is to show the conservative strategy, alternative to normal marketing strategy, is >> tyranny.

If they went the way of normal marketing, they would switch to a product that the consumer wants.  They rejected that.  The alternative is, to tell the consumer to take it, and like it!  That's tyranny.

You missed my point. No party has a problem with immigrants that think like them.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Like MD said, most people don't have problems with immigrants.  That's why I phrased the title like I did.  It's the party, not the 'people' conservatives.

This is a business decision...the problem is, Republican business is trying to achieve tyranny.  My original purpose in starting this thread is to show the conservative strategy, alternative to normal marketing strategy, is >> tyranny.

If they went the way of normal marketing, they would switch to a product that the consumer wants.  They rejected that.  The alternative is, to tell the consumer to take it, and like it!  That's tyranny.

You missed my point. No party has a problem with immigrants that think like them.

On that we agree.  But it's a two-way street: the problem comes up when immigrants don't think like them.  The vast majority of immigrants in fact don't think like Republicans, hence the Republican war on immigration.  In 2008, Republicans during the autopsy might have changed their platform on issues.  Instead, they doubled-down on their stands, and rather, decided to change the electorate.

Democracy doesn't work that way...the people choose the politicians, not the politicians choose the people.  If politicians get to engineer the electorate, how is that different from overall totalitarianism?  We are back to the Bolshevik state of the USSR: the elite telling the people what to do, via sculpting the electorate.

Where it really gets interesting is when the elite tells the electorate who has to "get out".

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

You missed my point. No party has a problem with immigrants that think like them.

On that we agree.  But it's a two-way street: the problem comes up when immigrants don't think like them.  The vast majority of immigrants in fact don't think like Republicans, hence the Republican war on immigration.  In 2008, Republicans during the autopsy might have changed their platform on issues.  Instead, they doubled-down on their stands, and rather, decided to change the electorate.

Democracy doesn't work that way...the people choose the politicians, not the politicians choose the people.  If politicians get to engineer the electorate, how is that different from overall totalitarianism?  We are back to the Bolshevik state of the USSR: the elite telling the people what to do, via sculpting the electorate.

Where it really gets interesting is when the elite tells the electorate who has to "get out".

So some parties favor certain immigrants over other immigrants.

Nothing new there.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

On that we agree.  But it's a two-way street: the problem comes up when immigrants don't think like them.  The vast majority of immigrants in fact don't think like Republicans, hence the Republican war on immigration.  In 2008, Republicans during the autopsy might have changed their platform on issues.  Instead, they doubled-down on their stands, and rather, decided to change the electorate.

Democracy doesn't work that way...the people choose the politicians, not the politicians choose the people.  If politicians get to engineer the electorate, how is that different from overall totalitarianism?  We are back to the Bolshevik state of the USSR: the elite telling the people what to do, via sculpting the electorate.

Where it really gets interesting is when the elite tells the electorate who has to "get out".

So some parties favor certain immigrants over other immigrants.  

Nothing new there.  

Except when you start using immigration to sculpt the electorate. Then, the tail is wagging the dog, when it comes to democracy.

I didn't say totalitarianism was anything new...we have only to look back upon the USSR.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

So some parties favor certain immigrants over other immigrants.  

Nothing new there.  

Except when you start using immigration to sculpt the electorate.  Then, the tail is wagging the dog, when it comes to democracy.

I didn't say totalitarianism was anything new...we have only to look back upon the USSR.

Nothing new there either.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Except when you start using immigration to sculpt the electorate. Then, the tail is wagging the dog, when it comes to democracy.

I didn't say totalitarianism was anything new...we have only to look back upon the USSR.

Nothing new there either.

Are you admitting that America is not a democracy? I would have to agree with you. In this millennium, not to mention this century, out of six presidential elections, only two presidents have received a plurality of votes: Bush in 2004, and Biden in 2020.

In down-ballot elections, particularly in the states, limiting voting to Republicans-only is a common practice.

This thread is to inform people of this fact.

Nah.

That both parties use immigrants to shape the electorate.

Maddog wrote:Nah.

That both parties use immigrants to shape the electorate.  

No doubt the Democrats are welcoming the newcomers, and their sense of democratic justice. But that's democracy.

Republicans are anti-democracy. I would prefer not to be on their side.

Both parties use immigrants as pawns.

It's a shame, but not much I can do about it.

Maddog wrote:Both parties use immigrants as pawns.

It's a shame, but not much I can do about it.

Yes, I notice you are quite feckless.  It's because you approach questions with trickery and tomfoolery, rather than honesty.  Frankly, I don't think we know what your believe.

As to the specific question, you are reaching for what we call in the business a false equivalency.  The point you miss is, the Republicans are trying to quash democracy.  Democrats, while democracy quite suits them in the results, would never go against democratic principles, no matter the result.

You are just a cheap whore.  

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:Both parties use immigrants as pawns.

It's a shame, but not much I can do about it.

Yes, I notice you are quite feckless.  It's because you approach questions with trickery and tomfoolery, rather than honesty.  Frankly, I don't think we know what your believe.

As to the specific question, you are reaching for what we call in the business a false equivalency.  The point you miss is, the Republicans are trying to quash democracy.  Democrats, while democracy quite suits them in the results, would never go against democratic principles, no matter the result.

You are just a cheap whore.  

I think you're a worthless piece of shit. Because of that, I spend little time paying much attention to your posts. I don't even read most of them. I'm just killing time until someone of value shows up.

Maddog wrote:I think you're a worthless piece of shit.  Because of that, I spend little time paying much attention to your posts. I don't even read most of them. I'm just killing time until someone of value shows up.

I don't care.