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Why are the vulnerable in care homes still dying?

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Why are the vulnerable in care homes still dying? Empty Why are the vulnerable in care homes still dying?

Post by Syl Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:21 pm

The sharp increase in care home deaths from Covid is being blamed on the new variant.
But residents have not been allowed any visits from family members for many months, many have had to die without any family beside them to comfort them.
It would seem obvious that  the virus is being brought in by the staff, who either knowingly or unknowingly have the virus.

According to the government all care home staff should have been offered the vaccine by now, so why, and this is happening throughout the country once more, are the deaths of vulnerable older people in these places rising so sharply again?

Would you be happy if a parent/spouse of yours was living in a care home facility? I know I wouldn't.








https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-55927594

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Post by Maddog Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:09 pm

Syl wrote:The sharp increase in care home deaths from Covid is being blamed on the new variant.
But residents have not been allowed any visits from family members for many months, many have had to die without any family beside them to comfort them.
It would seem obvious that  the virus is being brought in by the staff, who either knowingly or unknowingly have the virus.

According to the government all care home staff should have been offered the vaccine by now, so why, and this is happening throughout the country once more, are the deaths of vulnerable older people in these places rising so sharply again?

Would you be happy if a parent/spouse of yours was living in a care home facility? I know I wouldn't.








https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-55927594

You probably have staff that have refused the vaccine.

You could fire the ones that refuse it I guess. I don't know if that's legal over there or not.

Let's say you can fire them. Who do you replace them with?

Every action in this battle sets off a few consequences that are less than desirable.

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Post by Syl Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:13 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:The sharp increase in care home deaths from Covid is being blamed on the new variant.
But residents have not been allowed any visits from family members for many months, many have had to die without any family beside them to comfort them.
It would seem obvious that  the virus is being brought in by the staff, who either knowingly or unknowingly have the virus.

According to the government all care home staff should have been offered the vaccine by now, so why, and this is happening throughout the country once more, are the deaths of vulnerable older people in these places rising so sharply again?

Would you be happy if a parent/spouse of yours was living in a care home facility? I know I wouldn't.








https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-55927594

You probably have staff that have refused the vaccine.  

You could fire the ones that refuse it I guess. I don't know if that's legal over there or not.

Let's say you can fire them. Who do you replace them with?

Every action in this battle sets off a few consequences that are less than desirable.

The PM has just given his update, and he has mentioned the lower intake of vaccine acceptance in many BAME groups....and they make up a good percentage of care home staff.
Obviously everyone has free will, but when it's the lives of the most vulnerable people who are at risk, I do think measures should be brought in to protect the residents.
If that means replacing staff with others who have had the vaccination, possibly family members, many I am sure would prefer to look after their loved ones than leave them open to catching a killer virus because the present carer refuses to have the vaccination.

I don't know whether it would be legal to fire someone who refuses to be vaccinated....imo, it should be if they are working with the most vulnerable.

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Post by Syl Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:20 pm

I do wonder if in the future travel restrictions are brought in and some countries refuse entry to the unvaccinated, whether people who are happy to put the vulnerable at risk now, will have a change of heart if it interferes with their annual holiday abroad.Mad

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Post by Maddog Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:56 pm

Syl wrote:I do wonder if in the future travel restrictions are brought in and some countries  refuse entry to the unvaccinated, whether people who are happy to put the vulnerable at risk now, will have a change of heart if it interferes with their annual holiday abroad.Mad  

That's already done in some countries for certain vaccines. At least that's what the global travelers tell me.

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Post by Syl Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:38 am

Yellow fever is one disease people have to have been vaccinated against before they are allowed in certain countries.

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Post by Tommy Monk Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:35 pm




They are dying because they are very old and have come to the end of their lives...

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Post by gelico Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:49 am





The videos I've seen regarding this have been infuriating and heartbreaking.

No compassion shown whatsoever and they dare to call themselves ''care'' homes.

I never wanted my dad to go into a care home even before covid and now - although i never thought i'd say this - I'm actually really glad he's dead.


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Post by Syl Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:42 pm

gelico wrote:



The videos I've seen regarding this have been infuriating and heartbreaking.

No compassion shown whatsoever and they dare to call themselves ''care'' homes.

I never wanted my dad to go into a care home even before covid and now - although i never thought i'd say this - I'm actually really glad he's dead.


Evil or Very Mad

I understand exactly what you mean Gels. x

I wish my mum had died 5 years earlier than she did, because the last 5 years of her life, 3 spent in a care home, were hell for her.
The care home was a really nice one, it was just her condition deteriorated so much she needed the 24 hour specialist care.

We did look at 13 or 14 different care facilities before we chose a small much more personal one. Some of them, like you say, could hardly be called 'care' facilities....they were soulless cold places that frankly stank of neglect.

I found the news a few days ago that once more the elderly in care homes are dying with Covid very sad. Someone is bringing the infection into these places, and it's not their families.

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Post by Syl Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


They are dying because they are very old and have come to the end of their lives...

Have you spent much time in care home facilities Tommy?
I have in the past, and some of the residents can be late 60's early 70's....hardly ancient.

Unless it's a care home that specialises in 'end of life' care, many of the residents live for many years.......unless of course Covid kills them off, as is happening right now.

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Post by Original Quill Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:03 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:They are dying because they are very old and have come to the end of their lives...

Ahhh...so that's why we shouldn't worry about this:

ABC News wrote:Violent attacks on elderly Asian Americans in Bay Area leaves community members 'traumatized'
A community leader say there have been at least 20 attacks.

By Kiara Brantley-Jones and Stacy Chen
February 11, 2021, 1:44 PM

No worries, "...they are very old and have come to the end of their lives," anyway.  Tommy, do ageists think the same as racists?

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Post by eddie Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:59 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


They are dying because they are very old and have come to the end of their lives...

Have you spent much time in care home facilities Tommy?
I have in the past, and some of the residents can be late 60's early 70's....hardly ancient.

Unless it's a care home that specialises in 'end of life' care, many of the residents live for many years.......unless of course Covid kills them off, as is happening right now.

Sometimes Covid is used on death certificates when it isn’t actually covid. There are many personal stories bouncing around the Internet from families angrily stating that Covid wasn’t the cause of death but was stated as such.

Not saying it’s the case here but...you never know.

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Post by Original Quill Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:16 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:

Have you spent much time in care home facilities Tommy?
I have in the past, and some of the residents can be late 60's early 70's....hardly ancient.

Unless it's a care home that specialises in 'end of life' care, many of the residents live for many years.......unless of course Covid kills them off, as is happening right now.

Sometimes Covid is used on death certificates when it isn’t actually covid. There are many personal stories bouncing around the Internet from families angrily stating that Covid wasn’t the cause of death but was stated as such.

Not saying it’s the case here but...you never know.

Most people die of 'combinations' of things.  Nature does not draw precise lines.  To make this point, I usually point out that most people on 9/11 didn't die of terrorism...they died of burns, smoke inhalation and blunt-force trauma.  Their deaths occurred in 'combination' with a terrorist attack.

Another way to make this point, is to underscore that HIV cannot kill at all.  It only impairs the immune system, which in turn allows other maladies to go unchecked.  Indeed, most die of pneumonia.  To hold that Covid-19 doesn't kill because other maladies are involved, is tantamount to saying HIV doesn't kill at all.


Last edited by Original Quill on Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Syl Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:

Sometimes Covid is used on death certificates when it isn’t actually covid. There are many personal stories bouncing around the Internet from families angrily stating that Covid wasn’t the cause of death but was stated as such.

Not saying it’s the case here but...you never know.

Most people die of 'combinations' of things.  Nature doesn't not draw precise lines.  To make this point, I usually point out that most people on 9/11 didn't die of terrorism...they died of burns, smoke inhalation and blunt-force trauma.  Their deaths occurred in 'combination' with a terrorist attack.

Another way to make this point, is to underscore that HIV cannot kill at all.  It only impairs the immune system, which in turn allows other maladies to go unchecked.  Indeed, most die of pneumonia.  To hold that Covid-19 doesn't kill because other maladies are involved, is tantamount to saying HIV doesn't kill at all.

I agree with you Quill.

Whether someone dies from Covid or complications Covid has caused, whether they were ill and frail to begin with and Covid finished them of weeks/months/ years earlier than they would have died had they not caught the virus, I think it's right to count it as a Covid death.

There are repeated pleas for carers -working in care facilities to take the vaccination in order to protect the vulnerable they are caring for....it seems quite a lot are still refusing.
Selfish and dangerous....and like I said, I would be loath to leave a loved one in a care-home at present unless I know for sure that ALL the staff had been vaccinated.

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Post by Syl Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:54 pm

Bloody hell, what is wrong with these people?

"A third of social care staff have not had the Covid-19 vaccine, the health secretary has said, despite them being among the groups prioritised.

Matt Hancock said it was "very important" for the staff, patients and society that they get the jab.

Meanwhile, a hospital trust has revealed that only 36.8% of its black staff have had the vaccine.

Everyone in the top four groups has had a jab offer and 15 million people have had a first dose, the government says.

The rollout in England has officially been expanded to those aged 65 and over and younger people in at-risk groups.n a bid to encourage more social care staff to have the jab, Mr Hancock told BBC Breakfast: "It is the right thing to do. It is very important that you come forward and take up this vaccine. It's important for you, it's important for your patients and of course it's important for the whole of society."

Analysis from the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust has revealed lower proportions of black and Asian staff being vaccinated.

It found that 70.9% of white staff had come forward, compared with 58.5% of South Asian staff and 36.8% of black staff.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson urged those eligible to receive the vaccine to come forward.

"These jabs, these vaccines are safe, they are efficacious, they will help protect you against disease and against death and they're a wonderful thing to have - they help protect you, your family, your neighbours," Mr Johnson said.

Prof Stephen Powis, national medical director for NHS England, said he would be talking to clinical leaders from various ethnic groups "to work out together how we can encourage everybody to take up the vaccine."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56065986

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Post by Maddog Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:12 pm

Syl wrote:Bloody hell, what is wrong with these people?

"A third of social care staff have not had the Covid-19 vaccine, the health secretary has said, despite them being among the groups prioritised.

Matt Hancock said it was "very important" for the staff, patients and society that they get the jab.

Meanwhile, a hospital trust has revealed that only 36.8% of its black staff have had the vaccine.

Everyone in the top four groups has had a jab offer and 15 million people have had a first dose, the government says.

The rollout in England has officially been expanded to those aged 65 and over and younger people in at-risk groups.n a bid to encourage more social care staff to have the jab, Mr Hancock told BBC Breakfast: "It is the right thing to do. It is very important that you come forward and take up this vaccine. It's important for you, it's important for your patients and of course it's important for the whole of society."

Analysis from the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust has revealed lower proportions of black and Asian staff being vaccinated.

It found that 70.9% of white staff had come forward, compared with 58.5% of South Asian staff and 36.8% of black staff.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson urged those eligible to receive the vaccine to come forward.

"These jabs, these vaccines are safe, they are efficacious, they will help protect you against disease and against death and they're a wonderful thing to have - they help protect you, your family, your neighbours," Mr Johnson said.

Prof Stephen Powis, national medical director for NHS England, said he would be talking to clinical leaders from various ethnic groups "to work out together how we can encourage everybody to take up the vaccine."



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56065986

Maybe its their zeitgeist?

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Post by Syl Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:36 am

Well maybe the carehomes here should adopt the attitude of the Red Hook Tavern in NY.

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Post by Maddog Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:43 pm

Syl wrote:Well maybe the carehomes here should adopt the attitude of the Red Hook Tavern in NY.

Ha. That would work assuming you can replace those workers that you let go.

I don't know how it is there, but most of the workers in our homes are fairly low paid.

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Post by Syl Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:00 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:Well maybe the carehomes here should adopt the attitude of the Red Hook Tavern in NY.

Ha. That would work assuming you can replace those workers that you let go.  

I don't know how it is there, but most of the workers in our homes are fairly low paid.

Same here...very low paid, which is why the turnover in care facilities is high and why so many 'carers' are useless.

Training, paying accordingly, and valuing carers should have been addressed many years ago.

I still think if the alternative to NOT having the jab would be the sack, many more would be willing.
Like I said....I bet if their annual holiday is scuppered in the future , they would soon go and get it.


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Post by Maddog Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:04 pm

https://www.vox.com/22214210/covid-vaccine-health-care-workers-safety-fears

It's happening here too.

I don't know of any healthcare workers that have refused it, but I know a pharmaceutical sales person who told me "fuck that vaccine, I'm not getting it".

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Post by Syl Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:49 pm

Maddog wrote:https://www.vox.com/22214210/covid-vaccine-health-care-workers-safety-fears

It's happening here too.

I don't know of any healthcare workers that have refused it, but I know a pharmaceutical sales person who told me "fuck that vaccine, I'm not getting it".  
There are loads here who are refusing it. They have all been offered it as they were in the priority groups.

"Three in 10 care home staff have not been vaccinated against Covid-19 despite being in the top four priority groups, according to data from NHS England.

More than 435,000 workers in care homes for older adults are eligible in England, but only 304,600 have received a first dose.

In London, only 52% of staff have had a jab, rising to 75% in the South West.

The UK target of vaccinating 15 million people was met at the weekend.

But these figures, up to 14 February, suggest there are large groups of care workers, who are in the top four priority groups, who have still not come forward.

Some care home staff have previously said they refused the vaccine because of "cultural issues", but organisations representing care providers say they must be convinced to have one - to protect them and the services they work in."





https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56112622


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Post by Maddog Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:02 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:https://www.vox.com/22214210/covid-vaccine-health-care-workers-safety-fears

It's happening here too.

I don't know of any healthcare workers that have refused it, but I know a pharmaceutical sales person who told me "fuck that vaccine, I'm not getting it".  
There are loads  here who are refusing it. They have all been offered it as they were in the priority groups.

"Three in 10 care home staff have not been vaccinated against Covid-19 despite being in the top four priority groups, according to data from NHS England.

More than 435,000 workers in care homes for older adults are eligible in England, but only 304,600 have received a first dose.

In London, only 52% of staff have had a jab, rising to 75% in the South West.

The UK target of vaccinating 15 million people was met at the weekend.

But these figures, up to 14 February, suggest there are large groups of care workers, who are in the top four priority groups, who have still not come forward.

Some care home staff have previously said they refused the vaccine because of "cultural issues", but organisations representing care providers say they must be convinced to have one - to protect them and the services they work in."





https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56112622


I guess if all the residents are vaccinated they will be mostly (95%) protected. The staff that refuses will just infect each other.

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Post by Syl Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:59 pm

Well not really. It takes around 3 weeks for the vaccination to part protect, it will be 12 weeks before the 2nd jab is given.....even then it's reckoned that immunity will only be around 65% successful with some vaccines  in older people.

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Post by Maddog Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:46 pm

Syl wrote:Well not really. It takes around 3 weeks for the vaccination to part protect, it will be 12 weeks before the 2nd jab is given.....even then it's reckoned that immunity will only be around 65% successful with some vaccines  in older people.

I guess I meant eventually. I sorta thought all the patients had their second jab by now.

I didn't realize the vaccine was so ineffective in older folks.

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Post by Syl Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:23 pm

I think it will be in March or April before all the over 80's will have received their 2nd jab.

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Post by eddie Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:02 pm

I just read an article about some elderly patients in a Norway care home that died after receiving the vaccine.


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Post by eddie Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm

I did check it out - https://fullfact.org/online/norway-vaccine-deaths/

It’s being claimed that it could’ve been, or probably was, the side effects that killed them as they were frail

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Post by Syl Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:59 pm

Seems this story spread from a Facebook post that a Fox news reporter started.
The last paragraph puts the deaths in perspective.


Fox News commentator Jan Morgan posted the news story to Facebook with the caption: “23 die within hours of taking COVID vaccine. ... I’ve never taken a flu shot and I’m certainly NOT letting anyone inject this garbage in to my body.” (The deaths actually happened within six days of the vaccine, according to a statement from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health.)






on January 19, the Norwegian Institute of Public Health released a statement saying that no link had been established between Pfizer/BioNTech's vaccine and any post-vaccination deaths in the country. The World Health Organisation (WHO) echoed the sentiment in a statement on January 22, saying that it saw no evidence that the vaccine had contributed to the deaths. In yet another statement, Pfizer told The British Medical Journal that it is working with Noma to investigate the deaths, but that "the number of incidents so far is not alarming, and in line with expectations”.






[size=31]"By comparison, 400 people on average die in Norwegian nursing homes and long-term care facilities per week. But because these 23 deaths were close to vaccination they are being fully assessed. "[/size]

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Post by Maddog Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:02 am

Syl wrote:Seems this story spread from a Facebook post that a Fox news reporter started.
The last paragraph puts the deaths in perspective.


Fox News commentator Jan Morgan posted the news story to Facebook with the caption: “23 die within hours of taking COVID vaccine. ... I’ve never taken a flu shot and I’m certainly NOT letting anyone inject this garbage in to my body.” (The deaths actually happened within six days of the vaccine, according to a statement from the Norwegian Institute of Public Health.)






on January 19, the Norwegian Institute of Public Health released a statement saying that no link had been established between Pfizer/BioNTech's vaccine and any post-vaccination deaths in the country. The World Health Organisation (WHO) echoed the sentiment in a statement on January 22, saying that it saw no evidence that the vaccine had contributed to the deaths. In yet another statement, Pfizer told The British Medical Journal that it is working with Noma to investigate the deaths, but that "the number of incidents so far is not alarming, and in line with expectations”.






[size=31]"By comparison, 400 people on average die in Norwegian nursing homes and long-term care facilities per week. But because these 23 deaths were close to vaccination they are being fully assessed. "[/size]

Jan really isn't a reporter. She owns a gun range in Arkansas and comments on gun issues, when she's not saying Trump really won the election. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Syl Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:08 am

She is obviouly an anti vaxxer.

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Post by Maddog Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:20 am

Syl wrote:She is obviouly an anti vaxxer.

Probably. I don't watch Fox and since I don't comment on her Facebook page, I don't really see her posts much anymore.


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Post by Syl Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:26 am

I dont do Facebook, I dont watch Fox news and I have vever heard of her, but her giving out wrong information and then writing this on a public platform is a clue she is anti vax..

[size=48]I’ve never taken a flu shot and I’m certainly NOT letting anyone inject this garbage in to my body.” [/size]

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Post by Syl Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:29 am

Sorry....not sure why the above  text is coming in big, it looks like I am shouting. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Maddog Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:06 am

Syl wrote:I dont do Facebook, I dont watch Fox news and I have vever heard of her, but her giving out wrong information and then writing this on a public platform is a clue she is anti vax..

[size=48]I’ve never taken a flu shot and I’m certainly NOT letting anyone inject this garbage in to my body.” [/size]

There are some folks out there that will get vaccines, just not this one. She could be one of those I guess.

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Post by Syl Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:28 am

She just sounds like a scaremongerer to me.

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Post by Maddog Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:56 am

Syl wrote:She just sounds like a scaremongerer to me.

I went back and checked out her Facebook page.

She thinks a lot of Republicans are now part of the Bildergers. She's out there. She's all over the place on her "theories".

But shes a crack shot so that makes her a little sexy. Cool

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Post by Syl Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:05 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:She just sounds like a scaremongerer to me.

I went back and checked out her Facebook page.  

She thinks a lot of Republicans are now part of the Bildergers. She's out there. She's all over the place on her "theories".  

But shes a crack shot so that makes her a little sexy.  Cool

Sexy to you just plain irritating to me. Rolling Eyes

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