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Paris knife attack - victim reported to have been a teacher who was beheaded - attacker shot dead by police

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:04 pm

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A history teacher who is said to have discussed images of the Prophet Muhammad with his pupils has been beheaded in a Paris suburb, it has been reported.

The suspected attacker was shot dead about 600 metres from the scene, the AP news agency has said.

It happened on a street in Conflans Sainte-Honorine, northwest of the French capital, at about 5pm local time.

According to La Parisien newspaper, the attacker was an 18-year-old man of Chechen origin, who was carrying a knife. A gun was found at his side. Other reports say it was an airsoft gun that fired plastic pellets.

The teacher's suspected attacker was shot after he refused to put down his gun.

https://news.sky.com/story/france-attack-man-shot-by-french-police-after-decapitation-in-paris-suburbs-12105885



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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:25 pm

To put it another way, if all you knew about white men in their 30s and 40s was from the news, you might assume the vast majority of them are rampage shooters and pedos.

If all you knew about young black men was what you saw in the news, you'd assume they spend their days stabbing and robbing people.

If all you knew about young women was from the media, you'd assume they're all obsessed with their appearance.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:53 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Vintage wrote:

It may be some are peaceful but follow the evidence, politicians in Afghanistan being assassinated especially if they are women, similar stuff in Pakistan plus you are in trouble if you are Christian in Pakistan, the Belgium stabber was a Muslim the French beheader was a Muslim, there are numerous stories of Muslims especially Afghans who seems stab someone for the slightest reason from being turned away from a cafe for not wearing a mask through killing someone because of cartoons to beheading your wife/neighbour to just being someone in the wrong place at the wrong time, there seems to be a distinct pattern here.

But imagine what our impression would be if every news outlet wrote a story about a typical Muslim every day.

MUSLIM GOES TO WORK, BRINGS HOME GROCERIES FOR DINNER

MUSLIM LADY GETS HER HAIR DONE

MUSLIM BOY GETS A PET DOG, SAYS, 'I'M THRILLED'

The vast, vast majority of Muslims go their whole lives without stabbing or blowing up or assassinating anybody. Just like the vast, vast majority of Christians go their whole lives without bashing a gay person or bombing an abortion clinic.


Stories like that are generally not 'news' for any group... Although some media outlets, especially the BBC, are obsessed with doing pro Muslim propaganda 'good news' stories...



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Post by Vintage on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:55 pm

Doubt the child would get a pet dog.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Vintage wrote:

It may be some are peaceful but follow the evidence, politicians in Afghanistan being assassinated especially if they are women, similar stuff in Pakistan plus you are in trouble if you are Christian in Pakistan, the Belgium stabber was a Muslim the French beheader was a Muslim, there are numerous stories of Muslims especially Afghans who seems stab someone for the slightest reason from being turned away from a cafe for not wearing a mask through killing someone because of cartoons to beheading your wife/neighbour to just being someone in the wrong place at the wrong time, there seems to be a distinct pattern here.

But imagine what our impression would be if every news outlet wrote a story about a typical Muslim every day.

MUSLIM GOES TO WORK, BRINGS HOME GROCERIES FOR DINNER

MUSLIM LADY GETS HER HAIR DONE

MUSLIM BOY GETS A PET DOG, SAYS, 'I'M THRILLED'

The vast, vast majority of Muslims go their whole lives without stabbing or blowing up or assassinating anybody. Just like the vast, vast majority of Christians go their whole lives without bashing a gay person or bombing an abortion clinic.


Stories like that are generally not 'news' for any group... Although some media outlets, especially the BBC, are obsessed with doing pro Muslim propaganda 'good news' stories...



But you're kind of making my point for me. If you were an alien species and all you had to go by was media reporting on human activity, you would assume that all groups of human beings are basically awful, with varying awfulness specialties.

You can't rely on media reporting to tell you what members of a race or a religion are like. That's not what news reporting is for.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:03 pm

To put it another way, no journalist reporting on a member of a certain race doing a certain bad thing wants his/her audience to come away thinking that the report is intended to show what a typical member of that person's race is like.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:12 pm

Vintage wrote:Doubt the child would get a pet dog.

Loads of Muslims have pet dogs Rolling Eyes

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Post by Vintage on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:35 pm

not around here they don't - unless its a guard dog and tied up in filthy conditions in the backyard. One young man had a guide dog, it had to live outside, his family wanted nothing to do with it, refused to feed it for him or anything.
The mosque he went to was a little more understanding and had a place made for it to stay in an alcove while he went into prayers, eventually some of the other worshipers actually spoke to the dog as the passed it. Strange how there's a famous story about a group of believers spending a night in a cave where it was emphasised their dog spent the night in the cave with them.

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Post by Maddog on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:59 pm

You know, there is another thread we are discussing right now and it's in regards to a crazy white woman that strangled another woman and cut her baby out.

Bat shit crazy knows no race or nationality.

That said, I think people that emigrate need to assimilate and accept the customs of their new society. They don't have to embrace them, but they need to tolerate them.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:49 am

Ben Reilly wrote:To put it another way, no journalist reporting on a member of a certain race doing a certain bad thing wants his/her audience to come away thinking that the report is intended to show what a typical member of that person's race is like.



" It's only a few"



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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:49 pm

Maddog wrote:I think people that emigrate need to assimilate and accept the customs of their new society. They don't have to embrace them, but they need to tolerate them.

It goes both ways. We wouldn't have a New York or a Santa Fe, New Mexico, or a Millioke, Wisconsin if people hadn't brought their culture with them. In fact, when I lived in Manhattan I longed for the Spanish flavor of the west.

It reminds one that we are a nation of immigrants, and we are the only place where cultures merge to make new and interesting different cultures.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:59 pm



Islam doesn't 'merge' or 'integrate'...



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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Islam doesn't 'merge' or 'integrate'...

Haha...it's already merged/integrated.  Islam is one of the Abrahamic monotheistic religions, teaching that there is only one God and that Muhammad is a messenger of God.

Islamic doctrine is an off-shoot of the Old Testament beliefs of the Bible.  It parts company with Christians over the idea of the Trinity.  Otherwise, he’s the same God, he has a long beard, and he lives in the sky.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:37 pm




Wrong.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:13 pm

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam

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Post by inmyopinion on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:18 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Islam doesn't 'merge' or 'integrate'...

Haha...it's already merged/integrated.  Islam is one of the Abrahamic monotheistic religions, teaching that there is only one God and that Muhammad is a messenger of God.

Islamic doctrine is an off-shoot of the Old Testament beliefs of the Bible.  It parts company with Christians over the idea of the Trinity.  Otherwise, he’s the same God, he has a long beard, and he lives in the sky.

by your standards all gods are the biblical God as ever you make no sense

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:26 pm




"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the latter day and who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden and who do not adopt Islam, (even if they are) of the People of the Book - [fight] until they humbly pay the Jizyah and have been subdued." - Quran 9:29


Convert, pay tax, or die, Islamic State warns Christians | Reuters
www.reuters.com › article
18 Jul 2014 · BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamist insurgents have issued an ultimatum to northern Iraq's dwindling Christian population to either convert to Islam, pay a religious levy or face death, according to a statement distributed in the militant-controlled city of Mosul.




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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:13 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Haha...it's already merged/integrated.  Islam is one of the Abrahamic monotheistic religions, teaching that there is only one God and that Muhammad is a messenger of God.

Islamic doctrine is an off-shoot of the Old Testament beliefs of the Bible.  It parts company with Christians over the idea of the Trinity.  Otherwise, he’s the same God, he has a long beard, and he lives in the sky.

by your standards all gods are the biblical God as ever you make no sense

It's not about me...pay attention to the evidence. First, Islam is monotheistic, which puts it in a very small class of religions. Second, historically Islam is traced to Abraham. That makes Islam one of the branches of the Abrahamic religions.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the same religion, except they each branch off to follow different prophets. Roman Christianity is the real outlier, as it follows the fantasies of the Apostle Paul [Saul of Tarsus] (circa 5 AD-64/67 AD), who in fact never even met Christ.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:19 am

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

by your standards all gods are the biblical God as ever you make no sense

It's not about me...pay attention to the evidence.  First, Islam is monotheistic, which puts it in a very small class of religions.  Second, historically Islam is traced to Abraham.  That makes Islam one of the branches of the Abrahamic religions.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all the same religion, except they each branch off to follow different prophets.  Roman Christianity is the real outlier, as it follows the fantasies of the Apostle Paul [Saul of Tarsus] (circa 5 AD-64/67 AD), who in fact never even met Christ.

they differ to such a point they are not the same religion that much is clear by the text, what ever you say or think, that is obvious by anyone with even a casual knowledge.

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Post by Vintage on Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:11 pm

Most religions have a central message that makes sense the problem is people have added bits about what you wear, who does or doesn't do this or that and jobs for the boys. Strip away all the nonsense and its a code to enable people to live in societies. A lot of the Jewish texts are like a survival manual, what in the climate it developed in makes sense, about what to eat or not eat, shellfish pork etc but over time its become a god given order.
Islam and the covering up lark its about living in a desert where both men and women cover not for modesty but because sand gets everywhere and plays hell with your skin, eyes and hair.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:41 pm

Vintage wrote:Most religions have a central message that makes sense the problem is people have added bits about what you wear, who does or doesn't do this or that and jobs for the boys. Strip away all the nonsense and its a code to enable people to live in societies. A lot of the Jewish texts are like a survival manual, what in the climate it developed in makes sense, about what to eat or not eat, shellfish pork etc but over time its become a god given order.
Islam and the covering up lark its about living in a desert where both men and women cover not for modesty but because sand gets everywhere and plays hell with your skin, eyes and hair.

The OP story is about a crime committed under the anti-idolatry theme:

OP wrote:A history teacher who is said to have discussed images of the Prophet Muhammad with his pupils has been beheaded in a Paris suburb, it has been reported.

In Abrahamic religions, namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam, idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than God, as if it were God. It is not an “added bit”, but derived from the very First Commandment: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

The message was not only to deny any particular god, but to deny polytheism, which was a competing form of religion popular in the time. Abraham's own father, Terah, was an idol-maker and believer in polytheism (Joshua 24:2). If you accept polytheism, then you accept an equal to God. So, accepting polytheism was ipso facto denial of the primacy of God. In the monotheistic religions, idolatry was the equivalent of the "worship of false gods" and it was necessary to deny polytheism along with any specific god.

Abrahamic religions hold that idolatry is not limited to the worship of an idol itself, but also worship involving any artistic representations of God, or prophet. After all, in a world of Idols = God, the representation is the competing god. In addition, it is forbidden to derive benefit (hana'ah) from anything dedicated to idolatry.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:07 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Vintage wrote:Most religions have a central message that makes sense the problem is people have added bits about what you wear, who does or doesn't do this or that and jobs for the boys. Strip away all the nonsense and its a code to enable people to live in societies. A lot of the Jewish texts are like a survival manual, what in the climate it developed in makes sense, about what to eat or not eat, shellfish pork etc but over time its become a god given order.
Islam and the covering up lark its about living in a desert where both men and women cover not for modesty but because sand gets everywhere and plays hell with your skin, eyes and hair.

The OP story is about a crime committed under the anti-idolatry theme:

OP wrote:A history teacher who is said to have discussed images of the Prophet Muhammad with his pupils has been beheaded in a Paris suburb, it has been reported.

In Abrahamic religions, namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam, idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than God, as if it were God.  It is not an “added bit”, but derived from the very First Commandment: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

The message was not only to deny any particular god, but to deny polytheism, which was a competing form of religion popular in the time.  Abraham's own father, Terah, was an idol-maker and believer in polytheism (Joshua 24:2).  If you accept polytheism, then you accept an equal to God.  So, accepting polytheism was ipso facto denial of the primacy of God.  In the monotheistic religions, idolatry was the equivalent of the "worship of false gods" and it was necessary to deny polytheism along with any specific god.

Abrahamic religions hold that idolatry is not limited to the worship of an idol itself, but also worship involving any artistic representations of God, or prophet.  After all, in a world of Idols = God, the representation is the competing god. In addition, it is forbidden to derive benefit (hana'ah) from anything dedicated to idolatry.

so is the trinity monotheism, polytheism and or idolatry ???

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:10 pm




And Muslims worship the "Kaaba" building which houses a "black stone"...



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Post by Vintage on Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:57 pm

That isn't the add ons I was talking about.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:06 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The OP story is about a crime committed under the anti-idolatry theme:



In Abrahamic religions, namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam, idolatry connotes the worship of something or someone other than God, as if it were God. It is not an “added bit”, but derived from the very First Commandment: “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”

The message was not only to deny any particular god, but to deny polytheism, which was a competing form of religion popular in the time. Abraham's own father, Terah, was an idol-maker and believer in polytheism (Joshua 24:2). If you accept polytheism, then you accept an equal to God. So, accepting polytheism was ipso facto denial of the primacy of God. In the monotheistic religions, idolatry was the equivalent of the "worship of false gods" and it was necessary to deny polytheism along with any specific god.

Abrahamic religions hold that idolatry is not limited to the worship of an idol itself, but also worship involving any artistic representations of God, or prophet. After all, in a world of Idols = God, the representation is the competing god. In addition, it is forbidden to derive benefit (hana'ah) from anything dedicated to idolatry.

so is the trinity monotheism, polytheism and or idolatry ???

Because in Christianity God is the only deity, it is still monotheism.

But the Trinity is an interesting concept. It doesn't divide the authority of God in a vertical sense, but it spreads that authority in a horizontal sense. It builds a community.

The mission of Pauline Christianity was to sell the concept. The inevitable question of all buyers is, what's in it for me? The answer was found in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son; and whosoever shall believeth in him, but he be dead, yet shall he live." It was a proposal: subscribe to this religion, and you will go on in blissful perpetuity. That dark corner in your mind—death—will be eliminated.

The Trinity was the union of God, his messenger, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which should permeate all believers. It was a community, which is why the Roman Emperor Constantine picked it up as a basis to unify his domain...which had recently seen a few cracks in it.

And it worked for a few centuries.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:07 pm

Vintage wrote:That isn't the add ons I was talking about.

Sorry.  It's the underlying issue that the OP article is talking about.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

so is the trinity monotheism, polytheism and or idolatry ???

Because in Christianity God is the only deity, it is still monotheism.

But the Trinity is an interesting concept.  It doesn't divide the authority of God in a vertical sense, but it spreads that authority in a horizontal sense.  It builds a community.

The mission of Pauline Christianity was to sell the concept.  The inevitable question of all buyers is, what's in it for me?  The answer was found in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son; and whosoever shall believeth in him, but he be dead, yet shall he live."  It was a proposal: subscribe to this religion, and you will go on in blissful perpetuity.  That dark corner in your mind—death—will be eliminated.

The Trinity was the union of God, his messenger, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which should permeate all believers.  It was a community, which is why the Roman Emperor Constantine picked it up as a basis to unify his domain...which had recently seen a few cracks in it.

And it worked for a few centuries.

but it would give 3 things equal power, so by your definition isn't that idolatry, counting and praying to something other than God.
and isn't 3 gods in one polytheism, if you split it up length ways or side ways, if islam is the same does it have all three, the same with judiaism, do they believe in 3 in 1 all equal in power as God? surely if they are all the same they must.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:04 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Because in Christianity God is the only deity, it is still monotheism.

But the Trinity is an interesting concept.  It doesn't divide the authority of God in a vertical sense, but it spreads that authority in a horizontal sense.  It builds a community.

The mission of Pauline Christianity was to sell the concept.  The inevitable question of all buyers is, what's in it for me?  The answer was found in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son; and whosoever shall believeth in him, but he be dead, yet shall he live."  It was a proposal: subscribe to this religion, and you will go on in blissful perpetuity.  That dark corner in your mind—death—will be eliminated.

The Trinity was the union of God, his messenger, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which should permeate all believers.  It was a community, which is why the Roman Emperor Constantine picked it up as a basis to unify his domain...which had recently seen a few cracks in it.

And it worked for a few centuries.

but it would give 3 things equal power, so by your definition isn't that idolatry, counting and praying to something other than God.
and isn't 3 gods in one polytheism, if you split it up length ways or side ways, if islam is the same does it have all three, the same with judiaism, do they believe in 3 in 1 all equal in power as God? surely if they are all the same they must.

No, it's not divided. That's why I said it's not vertical, but horizontal. The Trinity is like butter on toast...it's spread out, never separated. The Trinity is intended to bring the community to God. Contemplate what Holy Spirit means. It's a spirit, not an entity.

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Post by inmyopinion on Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

but it would give 3 things equal power, so by your definition isn't that idolatry, counting and praying to something other than God.
and isn't 3 gods in one polytheism, if you split it up length ways or side ways, if islam is the same does it have all three, the same with judiaism, do they believe in 3 in 1 all equal in power as God? surely if they are all the same they must.

No, it's not divided.  That's why I said it's not vertical, but horizontal.  The Trinity is like butter on toast...it's spread out, never separated.  The Trinity is intended to bring the community to God.  Contemplate what Holy Spirit means.  It's a spirit, not an entity.

and does judaism and islam as they are the "same" religion have the same trinity.
if you pray to Jesus are you praying to God, if you ask the Holy spirit for guidance are you asking God, is that not idolatry according to your definition?

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Post by Vintage on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:10 pm

In Judaism you have the Shekhina - the divine presence of god in the world, is that separate, attached to or the same thing in the same place and time as god or not something mere mortals can understand which is the usual answer to awkward question

In Kabbalism its the female aspect of god which seems to horrify a lot of mainstream Jews.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:47 am

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

No, it's not divided.  That's why I said it's not vertical, but horizontal.  The Trinity is like butter on toast...it's spread out, never separated.  The Trinity is intended to bring the community to God.  Contemplate what Holy Spirit means.  It's a spirit, not an entity.

and does judaism and islam as they are the "same" religion have the same trinity.

No, recall I said that each branch of the Abrahamic tree was an off-shoot, following a different prophet.  Jesus was such a prophet.  That is where Christianity branches off, and becomes a special story of its own.

Indeed, you might say that Jesus was the inspiration for Christianity.  Jesus belonged to a different Jewish sect, that was primarily introspective.  It was later called the Church of Jerusalem, primarily distinguished from the Church of Rome.

After the death of Jesus, Paul remade his image into an elaborate plan, supposedly of God.  This became Pauline Christianity…or Romanism.

inmyopinion wrote:if you pray to Jesus are you praying to God, if you ask the Holy spirit for guidance are you asking God, is that not idolatry according to your definition?

You don’t pray to Jesus, you pray to God in the name of Jesus.

Your attempt to objectify the Trinity reminds me of Mormonism.  The Book of Mormon does the same thing, which is one reason why the LDS is distinguished from Christianity.

The Trinity is a spiritual union, and Joseph Smith attempted to objectify each of them, leading (by logical extenuation) to the denial of the spirit of the Trinity.  If there is no Trinity, there is no Christianity.

This led some LDS revisionists to quickly add to the name: The Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ.  But, alas, a quickie name change cannot alter the doctrine of The Book of Mormon.  Joseph Smith cannot be rehabilitated.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

and does judaism and islam as they are the "same" religion have the same trinity.

No, recall I said that each branch of the Abrahamic tree was an off-shoot, following a different prophet.  Jesus was such a prophet.  That is where Christianity branches off, and becomes a special story of its own.

Indeed, you might say that Jesus was the inspiration for Christianity.  Jesus belonged to a different Jewish sect, that was primarily introspective.  It was later called the Church of Jerusalem, primarily distinguished from the Church of Rome.

After the death of Jesus, Paul remade his image into an elaborate plan, supposedly of God.  This became Pauline Christianity…or Romanism.

inmyopinion wrote:if you pray to Jesus are you praying to God, if you ask the Holy spirit for guidance are you asking God, is that not idolatry according to your definition?

You don’t pray to Jesus, you pray to God in the name of Jesus.

Your attempt to objectify the Trinity reminds me of Mormonism.  The Book of Mormon does the same thing, which is one reason why the LDS is distinguished from Christianity.

The Trinity is a spiritual union, and Joseph Smith attempted to objectify each of them, leading (by logical extenuation) to the denial of the spirit of the Trinity.  If there is no Trinity, there is no Christianity.

This led some LDS revisionists to quickly add to the name: The Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ.  But, alas, a quickie name change cannot alter the doctrine of The Book of Mormon.  Joseph Smith cannot be rehabilitated.

lol you defeat your own argument they are not the same religion, they share similarities, much as many things do, it does not make the same religion does it.lol

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


And Muslims worship the "Kaaba" building which houses a "black stone"...



It means "cube" and they worship in the direction of it, they don't worship it.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:00 pm

The Holy Trinity is God in three forms: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They're like different costumes for God, though at some points Jesus talks to God, so it can be a bit confusing.

But Jesus is God, and it's not un-Christian to pray to Jesus, or for that matter to the Holy Spirit.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:02 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:The Holy Trinity is God in three forms: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They're like different costumes for God, though at some points Jesus talks to God, so it can be a bit confusing.

But Jesus is God, and it's not un-Christian to pray to Jesus, or for that matter to the Holy Spirit.

it would be unjewish and no muslim would do it. they are clearly all different.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:12 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:The Holy Trinity is God in three forms: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They're like different costumes for God, though at some points Jesus talks to God, so it can be a bit confusing.

But Jesus is God, and it's not un-Christian to pray to Jesus, or for that matter to the Holy Spirit.

it would be unjewish and no muslim would do it. they are clearly all different.

They are, but they all come from the same religious tradition, much like Buddhism sprang from Hinduism. They have the same concept of God, and they all believe they're worshiping the original Hebrew God, Yahweh, properly.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:15 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
inmyopinion wrote:

it would be unjewish and no muslim would do it. they are clearly all different.

They are, but they all come from the same religious tradition, much like Buddhism sprang from Hinduism. They have the same concept of God, and they all believe they're worshiping the original Hebrew God, Yahweh, properly.

I don't think many muslims would say they pray to the same God asthe Jews or Christains, I'm pretty sure they would kill you for suggesting it.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:34 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


And Muslims worship the "Kaaba" building which houses a "black stone"...



It means "cube" and they worship in the direction of it, they don't worship it.


The Kaaba, black stone and the pilgrimage are all of Pagan origin.



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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:49 pm

inmyopinion wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

No, recall I said that each branch of the Abrahamic tree was an off-shoot, following a different prophet.  Jesus was such a prophet.  That is where Christianity branches off, and becomes a special story of its own.

Indeed, you might say that Jesus was the inspiration for Christianity.  Jesus belonged to a different Jewish sect, that was primarily introspective.  It was later called the Church of Jerusalem, primarily distinguished from the Church of Rome.

After the death of Jesus, Paul remade his image into an elaborate plan, supposedly of God.  This became Pauline Christianity…or Romanism.



You don’t pray to Jesus, you pray to God in the name of Jesus.

Your attempt to objectify the Trinity reminds me of Mormonism.  The Book of Mormon does the same thing, which is one reason why the LDS is distinguished from Christianity.

The Trinity is a spiritual union, and Joseph Smith attempted to objectify each of them, leading (by logical extenuation) to the denial of the spirit of the Trinity.  If there is no Trinity, there is no Christianity.

This led some LDS revisionists to quickly add to the name: The Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ.  But, alas, a quickie name change cannot alter the doctrine of The Book of Mormon.  Joseph Smith cannot be rehabilitated.

lol you defeat your own argument they are not the same religion, they share similarities, much as many things do, it does not make the same religion does it.lol

Denial is a river in East Africa.  Look up Abrahamic relitions:

Wiki wrote:The Abrahamic religions, also referred to collectively as Abrahamism, are a group of Semitic-originated religions that claim descent from the Judaism of the ancient Israelites and the worship of the God of Abraham. The Abrahamic religions are monotheistic, with the term deriving from the patriarch Abraham (a major figure described both in the Tanakh and the Quran, recognized by Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others). The three Abrahamic religions trace their origins to both sons of Abraham. For Jews and Christians it is his youngest son Isaac and for Muslims, his eldest son Ishmael.

Abrahamic religions spread globally through Christianity being adopted by the Roman Empire in the 4th century and Islam by the Islamic empires from the 7th century. Today the Abrahamic religions are one of the major divisions in comparative religion (along with Indian, Iranian, and East Asian religions). The major Abrahamic religions in chronological order of founding are Judaism (the base of the other two religions) in the 7th century BCE, Christianity in the 1st century CE, and Islam in the 7th century CE.

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are the Abrahamic religions with the greatest numbers of adherents.  Abrahamic religions with fewer adherents include the Druze faith (sometimes considered a part of Islam), the Baháʼí Faith, and Rastafari.

As of 2015, estimates classified 55.5% (3.8 billion people) of the world's population as adherents of an Abrahamic religion, which makes the other 46% (2.8 billion people) of the world's population adherents of a non-Abrahamic religion (32%) or irreligious (16%) as adherents of no organized religion. Christianity claims 31.2% of the world's population, Islam has 24.1%, Judaism has 0.2% and the Baháʼí Faith represents around 0.1%.

Nuff said...

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:07 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the latter day and who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden and who do not adopt Islam, (even if they are) of the People of the Book - [fight] until they humbly pay the Jizyah and have been subdued." - Quran 9:29


Convert, pay tax, or die, Islamic State warns Christians | Reuters
www.reuters.com › article
18 Jul 2014 · BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamist insurgents have issued an ultimatum to northern Iraq's dwindling Christian population to either convert to Islam, pay a religious levy or face death, according to a statement distributed in the militant-controlled city of Mosul.




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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:15 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Mohammed was a local thug and he and his gang of bandits robbed, raped and murdered their way around the place.


His first wife was the widow of a wealthy merchant, and she used to fascinate him with stories of Christianity and miracles and other tales of far away places... which had a big influence on him... But he was a power crazed psychopath and megalomaniac, and violence death and destruction was all he brought to people.


He was also a peadophile as he married a 9 year old girl.






He plagiarised bits from other religions and stories and stole everything else through brutality during his reign of terror while he and his gang of bandits robbed and raped and murdered and pillaged their way around the middle East!



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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:51 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Mohammed was a local thug and he and his gang of bandits robbed, raped and murdered their way around the place.


His first wife was the widow of a wealthy merchant, and she used to fascinate him with stories of Christianity and miracles and other tales of far away places... which had a big influence on him... But he was a power crazed psychopath and megalomaniac, and violence death and destruction was all he brought to people.


He was also a peadophile as he married a 9 year old girl.






He plagiarised bits from other religions and stories and stole everything else through brutality during his reign of terror while he and his gang of bandits robbed and raped and murdered and pillaged their way around the middle East!


that is very true, he tried a religion it never worked, went to a gang of killers equal split and that took off.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:32 pm

He's got 1.6-billion followers.

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Post by inmyopinion on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:He's got 1.6-billion followers.

fear works, clearly. and i guess the total control for men, multiple wives and 72 raisins help.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:37 pm

He's got something going on, that's true.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:21 pm




Violence is what goes on...




"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the latter day and who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden and who do not adopt Islam, (even if they are) of the People of the Book - [fight] until they humbly pay the Jizyah and have been subdued." - Quran 9:29



Also...


"...In Islam, apostasy has been traditionally considered a religious crime... the punishment includes death..."



Convert, pay tax, or die, Islamic State warns Christians | Reuters
www.reuters.com › article
18 Jul 2014 · BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Islamist insurgents have issued an ultimatum to northern Iraq's dwindling Christian population to either convert to Islam, pay a religious levy or face death, according to a statement distributed in the militant-controlled city of Mosul.



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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:08 pm

Every religion ripped off or built upon earlier traditions. You have to see the sense of that even if you follow one particular religion -- otherwise, you must think that people went around with no sense of God for whatever amount of time it took God to finally go,

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:12 pm




You have no idea what you're talking about...



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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:15 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


You have no idea what you're talking about...



I studied world religions in university and I've studied relgions informally both before and after university. Please let me know what other qualifications I need to put forth a very logical statement about religion, would you?

Better yet, you could show me how what I've said is wrong, rather than try to impugn my knowledge of the subject in general.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:56 pm




Common sense.



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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


Common sense.



Sorry, maybe I'm a bit thick tonight, but could you be more specific?

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