The Human Cost of Wokeness

First topic message reminder :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLHRP5SXGo

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

I have no idea WHY any of them were killed. The point is, the vast majority of people are killed by people they know, who tend to be the same race. If you're going to instruct your children on whom to fear, I would teach them that it's someone you know, of your own race.  

I mean is it a consolation to lose a child over some stupid argument, as opposed to racism?  

And we both have no idea what other lessons this mother has imparted to her child. Just because this is about racism doesn't mean she's never talked to him about getting out of heated situations that could turn violent, etc.

Is she telling her children to fear people based on their race?  Yes or no?

Yes.

Is she wrong to do that? Yes or no?

Yes. She is planting a seed that needn’t be planted....

Yet
Or
Never

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Is she telling her children to fear people based on their race?  Yes or no?

Yes.

Is she wrong to do that? Yes or no?

She's racist. I'll let you decide if that's wrong. I'm better at what is or isn't as opposed to what's right or wrong.

I see nothing wrong or racist about teaching a black child that he or she could be treated poorly by people of other races simply for being black. It's the truth and it could help keep the child safe in the future.

It doesn't usually happen in extreme ways, either. Nothing wrong with a black kid being stared at suspiciously by, say, a Korean shop owner and being able to think, "Yeah, I remember dad telling me this might happen to me. I'm going to keep my cool and not react."

I'd do it. I'd prepare my children to live in a world where some people will judge them negatively because of their skin color. To do otherwise would be irresponsible, in my opinion.

Might as well teach young female children that men might rape her too.

eddie wrote:Might as well teach young female children that men might rape her too.

You mention age ("young") and that's a good point -- there's a right age to teach kids stuff like this, and you shouldn't do it when they're too young to handle it.

I do think girls at some point should be taught that there are rapists out there, and that they're not to tolerate anybody trying to take bodily control of them.

It begins with the stranger-danger talks and gets more nuanced as the child matures.

eddie wrote:Might as well teach young female children that men might rape her too.

And teach the black female children that white men are more likely to rape them. It's not true, but teach them that anyway because the last thing we want to do is move forward.

Ben Reilly wrote:I see nothing wrong or racist about teaching a black child that he or she could be treated poorly by people of other races simply for being black. It's the truth and it could help keep the child safe in the future.

It doesn't usually happen in extreme ways, either. Nothing wrong with a black kid being stared at suspiciously by, say, a Korean shop owner and being able to think, "Yeah, I remember dad telling me this might happen to me. I'm going to keep my cool and not react."

I'd do it. I'd prepare my children to live in a world where some people will judge them negatively because of their skin color. To do otherwise would be irresponsible, in my opinion.

Teaching them to fear people because of race is racism.

What you should do with kids is teach them about all of the risks in the world. And also how to keep them in perspective. If you overload them with irrational fears they won't be able to function.

There is a massive difference between "some folks are racist", and "all white folks are to be feared". You just can't assign attributes or characteristics based on race. That's what the fucking Klan did.

....Or Muslims might blow them up or failing that, brutally gang rape them.

Maddog wrote:

eddie wrote:Might as well teach young female children that men might rape her too.

And teach the black female children that white men are more likely to rape them. It's not true, but teach them that anyway because the last thing we want to do is move forward.

So if there was a part of town where you knew your white child would be more likely to be attacked by nonwhite people, simply because they're white, would you  warn them, or simply let them blunder off and hope for the best?

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

And teach the black female children that white men are more likely to rape them. It's not true, but teach them that anyway because the last thing we want to do is move forward.

So if there was a part of town where you knew your white child would be more likely to be attacked by nonwhite people, simply because they're white, would you  warn them, or simply let them blunder off and hope for the best?

People of different races are rarely attacked in certain parts of town. You keep missing the point. White people are in greater risk in white parts of town, and black folks in black parts of town.

Random crime isn't as common as people think. I warned my kids about hanging with the wrong crowd, not hanging in the wrong part of town.

But I teach my kids to be careful everywhere.

Maddog wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

And teach the black female children that white men are more likely to rape them. It's not true, but teach them that anyway because the last thing we want to do is move forward.

So if there was a part of town where you knew your white child would be more likely to be attacked by nonwhite people, simply because they're white, would you  warn them, or simply let them blunder off and hope for the best?

People of different races are rarely attacked in certain parts of town. You keep missing the point. White people are in greater risk in white parts of town, and black folks in black parts of town.

Random crime isn't as common as people think. I warned my kids about hanging with the wrong crowd, not hanging in the wrong part of town.

But I teach my kids to be careful everywhere.

Great. But you keep missing my point, which is that it's always possible to encounter someone of a different race who will attack you *even if you're being perfectly decent, just because they don't like your skin color.*

Ben Reilly wrote:

Maddog wrote:

People of different races are rarely attacked in certain parts of town. You keep missing the point. White people are in greater risk in white parts of town, and black folks in black parts of town.

Random crime isn't as common as people think. I warned my kids about hanging with the wrong crowd, not hanging in the wrong part of town.

But I teach my kids to be careful everywhere.

Great. But you keep missing my point, which is that it's always possible to encounter someone of a different race who will attack you *even if you're being perfectly decent, just because they don't like your skin color.*

Yes it's possible.

It's also possible to get bitten by a rabid skunk picking blackberries.

But it would be silly to instill fear of skunks into your children, when the neighbors Golden Retriever is more likely to bite you.

It's hindering not helping racism and discrimination.

I was brought up in the 50's and 60's....women were second class citizens, men could rape their wives with impunity, the lowly poorly paid jobs were were for women not men.....thank God I and millions other girls  were not brought up to hate and distrust men.
We were brought up to value ourselves as well as men and deal with them individually.....not fear them because of their sex.

Swap sex for colour....is it not a similar situation?

eddie wrote:A mother plays a huge part into shaping her child into the adult he will become.

Let’s all really think about that.

So THAT'S why my daughters like shoes so damn much?

Ben Reilly wrote:I see nothing wrong or racist about teaching a black child that he or she could be treated poorly by people of other races simply for being black. It's the truth and it could help keep the child safe in the future.

It doesn't usually happen in extreme ways, either. Nothing wrong with a black kid being stared at suspiciously by, say, a Korean shop owner and being able to think, "Yeah, I remember dad telling me this might happen to me. I'm going to keep my cool and not react."

I'd do it. I'd prepare my children to live in a world where some people will judge them negatively because of their skin color. To do otherwise would be irresponsible, in my opinion.

How about that teaching her that there is some bad people in the world?

No matter their race and ethnicity

The main proponents of violence are always male and in fact she is far more like to be a victim of black on black crime

So based on your reasoning the race she most should fear would be her own, and should be taught this using your warped thinking Ben

A good parent will teach there child that there is some people bad in the world, some racist, some violent etc. They will teach a history which leads to some of these violence, but in this case the mother has been brainwashed with a kind of ideological thinking which is racist in itself the point you miss

Critical race theory which claims all white people are racist and any event is not based on whether its racist but by what extent its racist

Its racist tripe and teaching this kind of ideology does nothing but divide people and not bring them together, as its racist itself

The mother is abusing her child and teaching her hate

Next you will be telling me its okay for Hindu's to teach their children to fear Muslims, based on history and the violence that has happened to Hindu's over centuries by Muslims

Oh and the above is actually happening today. Do you think that is acceptable?

Maddog wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

Yes.

Is she wrong to do that? Yes or no?

She's racist. I'll let you decide if that's wrong. I'm better at what is or isn't as opposed to what's right or wrong.

American society is racist.  She's just teaching her children how to maneuver out of racism's way.  American society is bigger than all of us, and she's not willing to sacrifice her children to martyrdom in order to win some heroes' medal.

A mother's instincts are never wrong.  If she misses the big picture, well...it isn't it the mother's job to fight wars.  Once she has those babes, her job is to teach the kids the ways of the world...as it is.

That may be archaic coming from me, but we are not talking idealism here. I think this is the more persuasive view to a middle class American, just trying to get through life.  Martyrdom is a personal decision, and I'm not sure she's even entitled to sacrifice her children for some outside goal.

Her job is to keep the kids out of harm's way.

A lot of these idealistic platitudes about changing generational attitudes would disappear if the subject at hand was your own child, your own flesh and blood.

Parents don't tend to use their children to change the world. They tend to protect them.

Didgee wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:I see nothing wrong or racist about teaching a black child that he or she could be treated poorly by people of other races simply for being black. It's the truth and it could help keep the child safe in the future.

It doesn't usually happen in extreme ways, either. Nothing wrong with a black kid being stared at suspiciously by, say, a Korean shop owner and being able to think, "Yeah, I remember dad telling me this might happen to me. I'm going to keep my cool and not react."

I'd do it. I'd prepare my children to live in a world where some people will judge them negatively because of their skin color. To do otherwise would be irresponsible, in my opinion.

How about that teaching her that there is some bad people in the world?

No matter their race and ethnicity

The main proponents of violence are always male and in fact she is far more like to be a victim of black on black crime

So based on your reasoning the race she most should fear would be her own, and should be taught this using your warped thinking Ben

A good parent will teach there child that there is some people bad in the world, some racist, some violent etc. They will teach a history which leads to some of these violence, but in this case the mother has been brainwashed with a kind of ideological thinking which is racist in itself the point you miss

Critical race theory which claims all white people are racist and any event is not based on whether its racist but by what extent its racist

Its racist tripe and teaching this kind of ideology does nothing but divide people and not bring them together, as its racist itself

The mother is abusing her child and teaching her hate

Next you will be telling me its okay for  Hindu's to teach their children to fear Muslims, based on history and the violence that has happened to Hindu's over centuries by Muslims

Oh and the above is actually happening today. Do you think that is acceptable?

More than acceptable, I think it's appropriate. A Hindu, or Israeli, or white parent who didn't teach their kids that some Muslims might hate them simply because they're not Muslim is doing their children harm.

Because children think they have to do something to make people angry with them. They don't think people could hate them not for what they've done, but for who they are.

It's a terrible thing to have to teach your child, but you do it if you really care about them.

Ben Reilly wrote:

Didgee wrote:

How about that teaching her that there is some bad people in the world?

No matter their race and ethnicity

The main proponents of violence are always male and in fact she is far more like to be a victim of black on black crime

So based on your reasoning the race she most should fear would be her own, and should be taught this using your warped thinking Ben

A good parent will teach there child that there is some people bad in the world, some racist, some violent etc. They will teach a history which leads to some of these violence, but in this case the mother has been brainwashed with a kind of ideological thinking which is racist in itself the point you miss

Critical race theory which claims all white people are racist and any event is not based on whether its racist but by what extent its racist

Its racist tripe and teaching this kind of ideology does nothing but divide people and not bring them together, as its racist itself

The mother is abusing her child and teaching her hate

Next you will be telling me its okay for  Hindu's to teach their children to fear Muslims, based on history and the violence that has happened to Hindu's over centuries by Muslims

Oh and the above is actually happening today. Do you think that is acceptable?

More than acceptable, I think it's appropriate. A Hindu, or Israeli, or white parent who didn't teach their kids that some Muslims might hate them simply because they're not Muslim is doing their children harm.

Because children think they have to do something to make people angry with them. They don't think people could hate them not for what they've done, but for who they are.

It's a terrible thing to have to teach your child, but you do it if you really care about them.

wow

Sorry but I do not think you are the best person to give advice or teach children in getting along with other people. By using poor stereotypes against groups of people

Its a ridiculous thing to teach children, when again its individuals that commit acts of violence

So by your reasoning we should never allow Muslims into the Uk, based on a perceived threat?

Ben Reilly wrote:A lot of these idealistic platitudes about changing generational attitudes would disappear if the subject at hand was your own child, your own flesh and blood.

Parents don't tend to use their children to change the world. They tend to protect them.

Its insulting to think others  are not parents themselves, to arrogantly think you are the only one to parent children or have the only knowledge on how to parent children

Parents do not teach their children to fear other children or people because of their race, religion etc

They teach them to learn what is right and wrong. That some people hold bad and hateful ideas, being the ideas are what is wrong that the individual person may follow

If there is a bully at school, I do not teach the child to fear but tackle the problem, with a variety of means

To use fear as a teaching method, in regards to people based on their race, religion etc. Will lead to that child growing up in hate and fear of others

Its a piss poor teaching method

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

She's racist. I'll let you decide if that's wrong. I'm better at what is or isn't as opposed to what's right or wrong.

American society is racist.  She's just teaching her children how to maneuver out of racism's way.  American society is bigger than all of us, and she's not willing to sacrifice her children to martyrdom in order to win some heroes' medal.


Her job is to keep the kids out of harm's way.

Except the mother never taught her child any of this until she read some books

So it had nothing to do with her own perception of the US society. It had everything to do with being persuaded by people who hold critical race theory beliefs.

These books changed this mother into becoming racist and hateful

That shows yet again it is belief systems that make people hate

These dumb ideas are setting the US up closer and closer to a race war, all created by the far left and far right. A repeat of the 1930's

After years of the US progressing away from racism

I'm done talking with people who insist on twisting what I say in order to make me into a bad person.

Didgee wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

Didgee wrote:

How about that teaching her that there is some bad people in the world?

No matter their race and ethnicity

The main proponents of violence are always male and in fact she is far more like to be a victim of black on black crime

So based on your reasoning the race she most should fear would be her own, and should be taught this using your warped thinking Ben

A good parent will teach there child that there is some people bad in the world, some racist, some violent etc. They will teach a history which leads to some of these violence, but in this case the mother has been brainwashed with a kind of ideological thinking which is racist in itself the point you miss

Critical race theory which claims all white people are racist and any event is not based on whether its racist but by what extent its racist

Its racist tripe and teaching this kind of ideology does nothing but divide people and not bring them together, as its racist itself

The mother is abusing her child and teaching her hate

Next you will be telling me its okay for  Hindu's to teach their children to fear Muslims, based on history and the violence that has happened to Hindu's over centuries by Muslims

Oh and the above is actually happening today. Do you think that is acceptable?

More than acceptable, I think it's appropriate. A Hindu, or Israeli, or white parent who didn't teach their kids that some Muslims might hate them simply because they're not Muslim is doing their children harm.

Because children think they have to do something to make people angry with them. They don't think people could hate them not for what they've done, but for who they are.

It's a terrible thing to have to teach your child, but you do it if you really care about them.

wow

Sorry but I do not think you are the best person to give advice or teach children in getting along with other people. By using poor stereotypes against groups of people

Its a ridiculous thing to teach children, when again its individuals that commit acts of violence

So by your reasoning we should never allow Muslims into the Uk, based on a perceived threat?

By what reasoning did you come to that conclusion based on anything Ben's said?

Teaching a child that bigotry exists is not remotely comparable to saying we should be bigoted to others. I totally get the need to teach kids that hate exists (in various forms). Otherwise it will hit like a brickwall when they do encounter it. If anything, teaching kids that bigotry exists will, ideally, teach them not to bigoted themselves.

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

wow

Sorry but I do not think you are the best person to give advice or teach children in getting along with other people. By using poor stereotypes against groups of people

Its a ridiculous thing to teach children, when again its individuals that commit acts of violence

So by your reasoning we should never allow Muslims into the Uk, based on a perceived threat?

By what reasoning did you come to that conclusion based on anything Ben's said?

Teaching a child that bigotry exists is not remotely comparable to saying we should be bigoted to others. I totally get the need to teach kids that hate exists (in various forms). Otherwise it will hit like a brickwall when they do encounter it. If anything, teaching kids that bigotry exists will, ideally, teach them not to bigoted themselves.

1) Simple, by the fact he states that some Muslims will hate non-Muslims. Hence why allow Muslims into a country that will increase the risk of this hate?

2) Nobody said to not teach about hate? What do you think I stated in regards to bad beliefs? Its the view to say "well some Muslims are going to hate you". Even though they may well not even meet one that does. Hence it instills a false sense of fear and bigotry in that child towards someone Muslim. As they are expecting a number of Muslims to hate them

What sort of impression do you think that is going to have on a child then viewing Muslims?

Distrust? An automatic apprehensive view towards Muslims etc?

Its ignoring the fact that someone may hate them, simple because they do not like them. Which is going to be inmcreased when people apply idiciotic identity politics. The brainchild and stupidity that comes from the left. In that hey, "lets introduce an idea, that creates even more bigotry between people"

Ben Reilly wrote:I'm done talking with people who insist on twisting what I say in order to make me into a bad person.

Nobody claims youi are a bad person

Holy crap on a cracker

What is being said is you have some bad ideas, and you are quick to judge what you perceive as right

This is you simple getting sensitive because your views are being criticized

Grow a backbone you wetwipe

Didgee wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

wow

Sorry but I do not think you are the best person to give advice or teach children in getting along with other people. By using poor stereotypes against groups of people

Its a ridiculous thing to teach children, when again its individuals that commit acts of violence

So by your reasoning we should never allow Muslims into the Uk, based on a perceived threat?

By what reasoning did you come to that conclusion based on anything Ben's said?

Teaching a child that bigotry exists is not remotely comparable to saying we should be bigoted to others. I totally get the need to teach kids that hate exists (in various forms). Otherwise it will hit like a brickwall when they do encounter it. If anything, teaching kids that bigotry exists will, ideally, teach them not to bigoted themselves.

1) Simple, by the fact he states that some Muslims will hate non-Muslims. Hence why allow Muslims into a country that will increase the risk of this hate?

2) Nobody said to not teach about hate? What do you think I stated in regards to bad beliefs? Its the view to say "well some Muslims are going to hate you". Even though they may well not even meet one that does. Hence it instills a false sense of fear and bigotry in that child towards someone Muslim. As they are expecting a number of Muslims to hate them

What sort of impression do you think that is going to have on a child then viewing Muslims?

Distrust? An automatic apprehensive view towards Muslims etc?

Its ignoring the fact that someone may hate them, simple because they do not like them. Which is going to be inmcreased when people apply idiciotic identity politics. The brainchild and stupidity that comes from the left. In that hey, "lets introduce an idea, that creates even more bigotry between people"

Honestly I think if you would teach about hate/bigotry to kids then you and Ben are basically saying the same thing and it is really nitpicking to find differences. Any intelligent parent will teach their kids that some people hate others for a whole plethora of reasons - include religion, race, sexuality or whatever else - AND that it is wrong to do so.

So it does not logically follow that those parents would think 'we should ban Muslims from our country', since that would be another example of bigotry.

You are making the jump on his behalf: "Son, some Muslims will hate you because you are non-Muslim, that's why I think we should ban Muslims from coming here."
It is of course possible to make that jump, if bigotry is not the main teaching point. But it is. So that is actually the opposite of what he'd be saying.

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

1) Simple, by the fact he states that some Muslims will hate non-Muslims. Hence why allow Muslims into a country that will increase the risk of this hate?

2) Nobody said to not teach about hate? What do you think I stated in regards to bad beliefs? Its the view to say "well some Muslims are going to hate you". Even though they may well not even meet one that does. Hence it instills a false sense of fear and bigotry in that child towards someone Muslim. As they are expecting a number of Muslims to hate them

What sort of impression do you think that is going to have on a child then viewing Muslims?

Distrust? An automatic apprehensive view towards Muslims etc?

Its ignoring the fact that someone may hate them, simple because they do not like them. Which is going to be inmcreased when people apply idiciotic identity politics. The brainchild and stupidity that comes from the left. In that hey, "lets introduce an idea, that creates even more bigotry between people"

Honestly I think if you would teach about hate/bigotry to kids then you and Ben are basically saying the same thing and it is really nitpicking to find differences. Any intelligent parent will teach their kids that some people hate others for a whole plethora of reasons - include religion, race, sexuality or whatever else - AND that it is wrong to do so.

So it does not logically follow that those parents would think 'we should ban Muslims from our country', since that would be another example of bigotry.

You are making the jump on his behalf: "Son, some Muslims will hate you because you are non-Muslim, that's why I think we should ban Muslims from coming here."
It is of course possible to make that jump, if bigotry is not the main teaching point. But it is. So that is actually the opposite of what he'd be saying.

1) There is such a thing as age appropiate. Like for example you teach kids to not talk to strangers. You explain in an age appropiate way of the dangers of this. A child in the Uk is likely to meet some Muslim kids in school. At what age do you think it is appropirate for a child to understand there is religious, political extremist and for them to understand the difference between those who are not extreme in religious and political beliefs?

2) It certainly is one of the many reasons and views that the Far right would use to ban Muslims coming here. Its based on a fear. Where does fear lead to?

Hate.

3) Of course its eay to make that jump, as we already know a number of childred are being taught said hateful views, by parents with extreme beliefs.

You have two sets of kids that have been told that some Muslims will hate them for being non-Muslims. Those with decent liberal parents and those with extremist  or bigoted parents. How easy would it be for the former group to fall into the later group?

If you think this does not happpen, then you fail to understand the radicalisation  of people into the Far right and radical Islam

Didgee wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

1) Simple, by the fact he states that some Muslims will hate non-Muslims. Hence why allow Muslims into a country that will increase the risk of this hate?

2) Nobody said to not teach about hate? What do you think I stated in regards to bad beliefs? Its the view to say "well some Muslims are going to hate you". Even though they may well not even meet one that does. Hence it instills a false sense of fear and bigotry in that child towards someone Muslim. As they are expecting a number of Muslims to hate them

What sort of impression do you think that is going to have on a child then viewing Muslims?

Distrust? An automatic apprehensive view towards Muslims etc?

Its ignoring the fact that someone may hate them, simple because they do not like them. Which is going to be inmcreased when people apply idiciotic identity politics. The brainchild and stupidity that comes from the left. In that hey, "lets introduce an idea, that creates even more bigotry between people"

Honestly I think if you would teach about hate/bigotry to kids then you and Ben are basically saying the same thing and it is really nitpicking to find differences. Any intelligent parent will teach their kids that some people hate others for a whole plethora of reasons - include religion, race, sexuality or whatever else - AND that it is wrong to do so.

So it does not logically follow that those parents would think 'we should ban Muslims from our country', since that would be another example of bigotry.

You are making the jump on his behalf: "Son, some Muslims will hate you because you are non-Muslim, that's why I think we should ban Muslims from coming here."
It is of course possible to make that jump, if bigotry is not the main teaching point. But it is. So that is actually the opposite of what he'd be saying.

1) There is such a thing as age appropiate. Like for example you teach kids to not talk to strangers. You explain in an age appropiate way of the dangers of this. A child in the Uk is likely to meet some Muslim kids in school. At what age do you think it is appropirate for a child to understand there is religious, political extremist and for them to understand the difference between those who are not extreme in religious and political beliefs?

2) It certainly is one of the many reasons and views that the Far right would use to ban Muslims coming here. Its based on a fear. Where does fear lead to?

Hate.

3) Of course its eay to make that jump, as we already know a number of childred are being taught said hateful views, by parents with extreme beliefs.

You have two sets of kids that have been told that some Muslims will hate them for being non-Muslims. Those with decent liberal parents and those with extremist  or bigoted parents. How easy would it be for the former group to fall into the later group?

If you think this does not happpen, then you fail to understand the radicalisation  of people into the Far right and radical Islam

Kids learn about antagonism between religious groups in Primary School and Nazism in High School. What age is arbitrary. Different kids with different parents will learn at different times. I couldn't put a specific number on it, but they learn of a lot of these forms of hatred historically and it is right that they learn that some of it still exists.

We aren't talking about what the Far-Right do though; we are talking liberal minded people teaching their kids about bigotry. You assertion that Ben should support banning Muslims fails to hold water on the grounds of how and why he is telling his kids these things.

Ultimately it sounds like you would make your kids aware there are people who hate based on race etc.. and so would Ben. Perhaps you disagree on the age, but you'd still both be telling them the same things and, I expect, with right (ie: not bigoted) reasons.

EDIT: yes, I know this happens in far-right households, but we aren't talking about those. And I doubt the conversion (in liberal homes) is simply "you know son, some Muslims hate non-Muslims, so be careful around all Muslims." It is likely a lot more in depth and sensitively dealt with that that.

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

1) There is such a thing as age appropiate. Like for example you teach kids to not talk to strangers. You explain in an age appropiate way of the dangers of this. A child in the Uk is likely to meet some Muslim kids in school. At what age do you think it is appropirate for a child to understand there is religious, political extremist and for them to understand the difference between those who are not extreme in religious and political beliefs?

2) It certainly is one of the many reasons and views that the Far right would use to ban Muslims coming here. Its based on a fear. Where does fear lead to?

Hate.

3) Of course its eay to make that jump, as we already know a number of childred are being taught said hateful views, by parents with extreme beliefs.

You have two sets of kids that have been told that some Muslims will hate them for being non-Muslims. Those with decent liberal parents and those with extremist  or bigoted parents. How easy would it be for the former group to fall into the later group?

If you think this does not happpen, then you fail to understand the radicalisation  of people into the Far right and radical Islam

Kids learn about antagonism between religious groups in Primary School and Nazism in High School. What age is arbitrary. Different kids with different parents will learn at different times. I couldn't put a specific number on it, but they learn of a lot of these forms of hatred historically and it is right that they learn that some of it still exists.

We aren't talking about what the Far-Right do though; we are talking liberal minded people teaching their kids about bigotry. You assertion that Ben should support banning Muslims fails to hold water on the grounds of how and why he is telling his kids these things.

Ultimately it sounds like you would make your kids aware there are people who hate based on race etc.. and so would Ben. Perhaps you disagree on the age, but you'd still both be telling them the same things and, I expect, with right (ie: not bigoted) reasons.

1) So age appropriate. They learn in high shool about Far right hate. The same should apply to Islamic extremism, based then on the same age appropiate nature of the content of history and events today?

2) read my points 2 and 3 in my last post

3) No I would not be teaching them as Ben does and far from it. I would teach them age appropiate about poor beliefs. Things to watch out for and views people may have. How to understand the good and netgative traits of people. hence providing them with the means themselves to come to understand for themselves how to form their own views of others.

I also believe in teaching anti-fragility. Allowing kids to understand people and learn who others are through interacting themselves with other people. You simple cannot bubble-wrap up children. As this will only make them dependent on others in later life

3) are you assuming Ben would not teach those things?

What, exactly, did you assume Ben would say would be equatable to 'we should ban Muslims coming here'?

Eilzel wrote:3) are you assuming Ben would not teach those things?

What, exactly, did you assume Ben would say would be equatable to 'we should ban Muslims coming here'?

Read again what this is about and what we have already said Eilzel

Not going to repeat myself, as I have made my points clear and on what I disagree with Ben on

This is a mother teaching her "7" year old daughter hate. Which only came about from reading "Critical race Theory"

https://archive.is/Gjaje

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

1) Simple, by the fact he states that some Muslims will hate non-Muslims. Hence why allow Muslims into a country that will increase the risk of this hate?

2) Nobody said to not teach about hate? What do you think I stated in regards to bad beliefs? Its the view to say "well some Muslims are going to hate you". Even though they may well not even meet one that does. Hence it instills a false sense of fear and bigotry in that child towards someone Muslim. As they are expecting a number of Muslims to hate them

What sort of impression do you think that is going to have on a child then viewing Muslims?

Distrust? An automatic apprehensive view towards Muslims etc?

Its ignoring the fact that someone may hate them, simple because they do not like them. Which is going to be inmcreased when people apply idiciotic identity politics. The brainchild and stupidity that comes from the left. In that hey, "lets introduce an idea, that creates even more bigotry between people"

Honestly I think if you would teach about hate/bigotry to kids then you and Ben are basically saying the same thing and it is really nitpicking to find differences. Any intelligent parent will teach their kids that some people hate others for a whole plethora of reasons - include religion, race, sexuality or whatever else - AND that it is wrong to do so.

So it does not logically follow that those parents would think 'we should ban Muslims from our country', since that would be another example of bigotry.

You are making the jump on his behalf: "Son, some Muslims will hate you because you are non-Muslim, that's why I think we should ban Muslims from coming here."
It is of course possible to make that jump, if bigotry is not the main teaching point. But it is. So that is actually the opposite of what he'd be saying.

What this person is teaching their kids is that all people of a race are bad. That's straight up Nazi or KKK shit and indefensible no matter how you twist it.

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Didgee wrote:

1) Simple, by the fact he states that some Muslims will hate non-Muslims. Hence why allow Muslims into a country that will increase the risk of this hate?

2) Nobody said to not teach about hate? What do you think I stated in regards to bad beliefs? Its the view to say "well some Muslims are going to hate you". Even though they may well not even meet one that does. Hence it instills a false sense of fear and bigotry in that child towards someone Muslim. As they are expecting a number of Muslims to hate them

What sort of impression do you think that is going to have on a child then viewing Muslims?

Distrust? An automatic apprehensive view towards Muslims etc?

Its ignoring the fact that someone may hate them, simple because they do not like them. Which is going to be inmcreased when people apply idiciotic identity politics. The brainchild and stupidity that comes from the left. In that hey, "lets introduce an idea, that creates even more bigotry between people"

Honestly I think if you would teach about hate/bigotry to kids then you and Ben are basically saying the same thing and it is really nitpicking to find differences. Any intelligent parent will teach their kids that some people hate others for a whole plethora of reasons - include religion, race, sexuality or whatever else - AND that it is wrong to do so.

So it does not logically follow that those parents would think 'we should ban Muslims from our country', since that would be another example of bigotry.

You are making the jump on his behalf: "Son, some Muslims will hate you because you are non-Muslim, that's why I think we should ban Muslims from coming here."
It is of course possible to make that jump, if bigotry is not the main teaching point. But it is. So that is actually the opposite of what he'd be saying.

What this person is teaching their kids is that all people of a race are bad. That's straight up Nazi or KKK shit and indefensible no matter how you twist it.  

I wasn't defending the person in the OP. I was referring to how didge's assumptions on what Ben was saying didn't make sense.

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Honestly I think if you would teach about hate/bigotry to kids then you and Ben are basically saying the same thing and it is really nitpicking to find differences. Any intelligent parent will teach their kids that some people hate others for a whole plethora of reasons - include religion, race, sexuality or whatever else - AND that it is wrong to do so.

So it does not logically follow that those parents would think 'we should ban Muslims from our country', since that would be another example of bigotry.

You are making the jump on his behalf: "Son, some Muslims will hate you because you are non-Muslim, that's why I think we should ban Muslims from coming here."
It is of course possible to make that jump, if bigotry is not the main teaching point. But it is. So that is actually the opposite of what he'd be saying.

What this person is teaching their kids is that all people of a race are bad. That's straight up Nazi or KKK shit and indefensible no matter how you twist it.  

I don't think so. What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them. A bear cub might want to play with a poisonous snake. If the mother bear teaches the cub that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-snake"? Of course not. She is teaching the cubs how to get along in the world...as it is.

Granted, racism is bad. But America has been a racist land for over 400-years, and at no time has that ever ceased. Any black mother knows to teach her children: Don't forget your lunch, don't lose your jacket, and don't do anything to antagonize the white police officer. It's just the way it is.

Whites who say blacks should teach their children to love and appreciate them (whites), are hypocrites. Before they can expect that, they should stop killing black children. George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery...start there. Let's have a few hundred years of comity before we criticize the way it is, and expect blacks to change it. Respect is for those who deserve it, not for those who demand it.

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

What this person is teaching their kids is that all people of a race are bad. That's straight up Nazi or KKK shit and indefensible no matter how you twist it.  

I wasn't defending the person in the OP. I was referring to how didge's assumptions on what Ben was saying didn't make sense.

Ben was defending the person in the OP.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

What this person is teaching their kids is that all people of a race are bad. That's straight up Nazi or KKK shit and indefensible no matter how you twist it.  

I don't think so.  What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them.  A bear cub might want to play with a poisonous snake.  If the mother bear teaches the cub that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-snake"?  Of course not.  She is teaching the cubs how to get along in the world...as it is.

Granted, racism is bad.  But America has been a racist land for over 400-years, and at no time has that ever ceased.  Any black mother knows to teach her children: Don't forget your lunch, don't lose your jacket, and don't do anything to antagonize the white police officer.  It's just the way it is.

Whites who say blacks should teach their children to love and appreciate them (whites), are hypocrites.  Before they can expect that, they should stop killing black children.  George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery...start there.  Let's have a few hundred years of comity before we criticize the way it is, and expect blacks to change it.  Respect is for those who deserve it, not for those who demand it.

Yeah, you should stop killing black children. Why do you keep doing that?

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I don't think so.  What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them.  A bear cub might want to play with a poisonous snake.  If the mother bear teaches the cub that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-snake"?  Of course not.  She is teaching the cubs how to get along in the world...as it is.

Granted, racism is bad.  But America has been a racist land for over 400-years, and at no time has that ever ceased.  Any black mother knows to teach her children: Don't forget your lunch, don't lose your jacket, and don't do anything to antagonize the white police officer.  It's just the way it is.

Whites who say blacks should teach their children to love and appreciate them (whites), are hypocrites.  Before they can expect that, they should stop killing black children.  George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery...start there.  Let's have a few hundred years of comity before we criticize the way it is, and expect blacks to change it.  Respect is for those who deserve it, not for those who demand it.

Yeah, you should stop killing black children. Why do you keep doing that?

You have a tendency to personalize everything. It's not about me. Go back and reread the OP...you seem to have lost the plot.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yeah, you should stop killing black children. Why do you keep doing that?

You have a tendency to personalize everything.  It's not about me.  Go back and reread the OP...you seem to have lost the plot.

I have a tendency to call out your bullshit.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You have a tendency to personalize everything.  It's not about me.  Go back and reread the OP...you seem to have lost the plot.

I have a tendency to call out your bullshit.

No, you have a tendency to attack the messenger, rather than stay on message. Stay on the topic, and you might come up with answers. As it is, you are doing nobody any good.

Now...we were talking about black mothers having to teach black children how to stay alive. Your response?

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

I have a tendency to call out your bullshit.

No, you have a tendency to attack the messenger, rather than stay on message.  Stay on the topic, and you might come up with answers.  As it is, you are doing nobody any good.

Now...we were talking about black mothers having to teach black children how to stay alive.  Your response?

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

No, you have a tendency to attack the messenger, rather than stay on message. Stay on the topic, and you might come up with answers. As it is, you are doing nobody any good.

Now...we were talking about black mothers having to teach black children how to stay alive. Your response?

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

I have witnessed clips of those types of murders. I've seen on video, whites Travis McMichael and his father Gregory, kill Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year old black man. I've watched a video where Derek Chauvin, a white police officer, killed Floyd George, a 46-year old black man by asphyxiation. I've seen a tape of a black man, Walter Scott, being shot and killed by a white police officer, Michael Slager, in South Carolina.

When we speak of mothers teaching children how to stay out of harm’s way, we are speaking of teaching them to stay out of harm’s way now, and in the future. It’s a life-lesson. Sometimes it is when they are children, as in the case of Trayvon Martin, sometimes it is when they are adults, as with Floyd George. But always, it is a white killing a black man. It is one of life's dangers for blacks.

I didn't ask you shit about fucking videos.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Maddog wrote:

I didn't ask you shit about fucking videos.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Settle down and watch your language.  You're not some southern cracker, state trooper, who has just stopped a black family, ostensibly for a broken tail light.

You know damn well that those videos answer your questions, fully and quite well.  Those are racist whites, looking to kill a black man, thinking they have complete impunity.  That's what black mothers are teaching about.

It's this latter element of impunity that makes for institutional racism, mentioned earlier.  If cops were held to meet the same burden of proof as normal people, there would be a hell of a lot more cops in prison.

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

What this person is teaching their kids is that all people of a race are bad. That's straight up Nazi or KKK shit and indefensible no matter how you twist it.  

I don't think so.  What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them.  A bear cub might want to play with a poisonous snake.  If the mother bear teaches the cub that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-snake"?  Of course not.  She is teaching the cubs how to get along in the world...as it is.

Granted, racism is bad.  But America has been a racist land for over 400-years, and at no time has that ever ceased.  Any black mother knows to teach her children: Don't forget your lunch, don't lose your jacket, and don't do anything to antagonize the white police officer.  It's just the way it is.

Whites who say blacks should teach their children to love and appreciate them (whites), are hypocrites.  Before they can expect that, they should stop killing black children.  George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery...start there.  Let's have a few hundred years of comity before we criticize the way it is, and expect blacks to change it.  Respect is for those who deserve it, not for those who demand it.

Going to interpret the above in regards to what Quill means

Translation wrote:"I don't think so.  What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them.  A Human child with darker skin pigmentation might want to play with a a child with lighter skin pigmentation.  If the mother with darker skin pigmentation teaches the child that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-human"? (of course, yes)  She is teaching the child how to hate others in the world. (As quill perceives all children with fair skin as venomous snakes. Hallmarks of the biblical Adam and Eve, where women are portrayed as sinful)

Granted, racism is bad.  But America has been a racist land in the past, and has managed to pass many civil right laws that protect against discrimination.  Any mother knows to teach her children to respect liberal secular laws, that seek to protect them. Being as Police officers come in all shades of skin pigmentation.

Humans who say parents should teach their children to love and appreciate others, no matter how they look or the colour of their skin, are correct.  Sadly males should stop killing innocent women, children and men. " 

Lets start here quill because it seems, the following African American kids who were murdered by other African Americans. Do not register as worthy of being black lives, because their lives were taken by other black lives


You elevate criminal black lives, over innocent black children lives and that speaks volumes

This is what is wrong with the movement black lives matter

As the majority of us care about black lives and of course they do matter

Yet the movement only cares about African American criminals, killed by cops and not innocent African American kids or women. Murdered by African American criminals

The vast majority of African Americans who are murdered are killed by African Americans

So when the fuck are you going to start giving a fuck about these black lives Quill?

As all it seems to me is you are weaponizing the deaths of some Black criminals to further your own racist agenda

3-Year-Old Girl Shot In Englewood Is The 4th Chicago Toddler Shot In 10 Days: ‘We’ve Lost Our Minds’
The girl was hospitalized and was in "critical but stable" condition after being shot Tuesday night.

https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/07/01/3-year-old-girl-shot-in-englewood-is-the-4th-chicago-toddler-gunned-down-in-10-days-weve-lost-our-minds/
 

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

I didn't ask you shit about fucking videos.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Settle down and watch your language.  You're not some southern cracker, state trooper, who has just stopped a black family, ostensibly for a broken tail light.

You know damn well that those videos answer your questions, fully and quite well.  Those are racist whites, looking to kill a black man, thinking they have complete impunity.  That's what black mothers are teaching about.

It's this latter element of impunity that makes for institutional racism, mentioned earlier.  If cops were held to meet the same burden of proof as normal people, there would be a hell of a lot more cops in prison.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Didgee wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I don't think so.  What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them.  A bear cub might want to play with a poisonous snake.  If the mother bear teaches the cub that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-snake"?  Of course not.  She is teaching the cubs how to get along in the world...as it is.

Granted, racism is bad.  But America has been a racist land for over 400-years, and at no time has that ever ceased.  Any black mother knows to teach her children: Don't forget your lunch, don't lose your jacket, and don't do anything to antagonize the white police officer.  It's just the way it is.

Whites who say blacks should teach their children to love and appreciate them (whites), are hypocrites.  Before they can expect that, they should stop killing black children.  George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery...start there.  Let's have a few hundred years of comity before we criticize the way it is, and expect blacks to change it.  Respect is for those who deserve it, not for those who demand it.

Going to interpret the above in regards to what Quill means

Translation wrote:"I don't think so.  What she is teaching her children are survival skills, based upon the world around them.  A Human child with darker skin pigmentation might want to play with a a child with lighter skin pigmentation.  If the mother with darker skin pigmentation teaches the child that it is dangerous to do, is she being "anti-human"? (of course, yes)  She is teaching the child how to hate others in the world. (As quill perceives all children with fair skin as venomous snakes. Hallmarks of the biblical Adam and Eve, where women are portrayed as sinful)

Granted, racism is bad.  But America has been a racist land in the past, and has managed to pass many civil right laws that protect against discrimination.  Any mother knows to teach her children to respect liberal secular laws, that seek to protect them. Being as Police officers come in all shades of skin pigmentation.

Humans who say parents should teach their children to love and appreciate others, no matter how they look or the colour of their skin, are correct.  Sadly males should stop killing innocent women, children and men. " 

Lets start here quill because it seems, the following African American kids who were murdered by other African Americans. Do not register as worthy of being black lives, because their lives were taken by other black lives


You elevate criminal black lives, over innocent black children lives and that speaks volumes

This is what is wrong with the movement black lives matter

As the majority of us care about black lives and of course they do matter

Yet the movement only cares about African American criminals, killed by cops and not innocent African American kids or women. Murdered by African American criminals

The vast majority of African Americans who are murdered are killed by African Americans

So when the fuck are you going to start giving a fuck about these black lives Quill?

As all it seems to me is you are weaponizing the deaths of some Black criminals to further your own racist agenda

3-Year-Old Girl Shot In Englewood Is The 4th Chicago Toddler Shot In 10 Days: ‘We’ve Lost Our Minds’
The girl was hospitalized and was in "critical but stable" condition after being shot Tuesday night.

https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/07/01/3-year-old-girl-shot-in-englewood-is-the-4th-chicago-toddler-gunned-down-in-10-days-weve-lost-our-minds/
 

To Quill, one dead black person killed by a white person can be exploited far better than the 99 black people that are killed by black people. The 99 dead are worthless to him, and will be ignored by him.

Maddog wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Settle down and watch your language.  You're not some southern cracker, state trooper, who has just stopped a black family, ostensibly for a broken tail light.

You know damn well that those videos answer your questions, fully and quite well.  Those are racist whites, looking to kill a black man, thinking they have complete impunity.  That's what black mothers are teaching about.

It's this latter element of impunity that makes for institutional racism, mentioned earlier.  If cops were held to meet the same burden of proof as normal people, there would be a hell of a lot more cops in prison.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

It's a stupid question.

On another note, you're showing the Brits how southerners think and behave. If it isn't guns and violence, it's 'shit' and 'fuck'...as if that makes sense. Then, it's any attempt to demean the black race, and such hostility...my lord, I couldn't have asked for a better model to make a point about southerners.

But...as I say, it's stupid to engage in such vapid talk. If you have nothing further, bye...

Original Quill wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

It's a stupid question.

On another note, you're showing the Brits how southerners think and behave.  If it isn't guns and violence, it's 'shit' and 'fuck'...as if that makes sense.  Then, it's any attempt to demean the black race, and such hostility...my lord, I couldn't have asked for a better model to make a point about southerners.

But...as I say, it's stupid to engage in such vapid talk.  If you have nothing further, bye...

One that you can't answer. Let's try again.

Do you, or any white people that you know, kill black children?

Quill wrote:Whites who say blacks should teach their children to love and appreciate them (whites), are hypocrites. Before they can expect that, they should stop killing black children.

Have you stopped killing them?