Have the far right infiltrated the British police?

by Guest Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:02 am

Only 1 uncovered at this time, but still worthy of a full investigation to see whether there are others associated with him.
This cannot be allowed to happen.

Serving Met Police officer, 21, arrested over ‘links to right-wing terror group’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11107767/met-police-arrest-terror-group/

by Guest Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:22 pm

I wonder whether the response here would have been as underwhelming if the thread was entitled "Have the far left infiltrated the Met police?" With a link to the Mail or Expresss.

by Maddog Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:32 pm

Brutus wrote:Only 1 uncovered at this time, but still worthy of a full investigation to see whether there are others associated with him.
This cannot be allowed to happen.

Serving Met Police officer, 21, arrested over ‘links to right-wing terror group’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11107767/met-police-arrest-terror-group/

People attracted to law enforcement are often authoritarian in nature.

This shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone.

by gelico Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:54 pm

Brutus wrote:I wonder whether the response here would have been as underwhelming if the thread was entitled "Have the far left infiltrated the Met police?" With a link to the Mail or Expresss.

''His arrest relates to his suspected membership to an organisation with links to right-wing terrorism, police said.''

''The investigation remains ongoing and police do not believe there is anything to suggest there is any threat to wider public safety in relation to this matter''.

to be honest Brutus, there isn't much info given to comment on

no confirmation of links, no threat involved, no danger to the public, just kinda leaves me thinking meh,,,,whatever

by Tommy Monk Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:51 pm

The link article says "neo nazi groups"... and Nazis were nationalist socialists... so far left...!

by Guest Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:32 pm

gelico wrote:
Brutus wrote:I wonder whether the response here would have been as underwhelming if the thread was entitled "Have the far left infiltrated the Met police?" With a link to the Mail or Expresss.

''His arrest relates to his suspected membership to an organisation with links to right-wing terrorism, police said.''

''The investigation remains ongoing and police do not believe there is anything to suggest there is any threat to wider public safety in relation to this matter''.

to be honest Brutus, there isn't much info given to comment on

no confirmation of links, no threat involved, no danger to the public, just kinda leaves me thinking meh,,,,whatever

Heard that defensive speech before

The Police gave this exact same reply before, in regards to grooming gangs

Go figure

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:32 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

The link article says "neo nazi groups"... and Nazis were nationalist socialists... so far left...!

by Guest Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

The link article says "neo nazi groups"... and Nazis were nationalist socialists... so far left...!

https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/

Tommy claims neo-Nazism is Far left?

Tommy this has gotten beyond a joke and is embarrassing every time you claim this. When as seen its wrong your claims. Like a drug addict, you are being controlled by your emotions and beliefs. Like any religious zealot that denies the truth. You are an acolyte of the alt right

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics

Stop being a Nazi apologist Tommy eh?

As no Neo Nazi would ever view themselves on the left

This is what you fail to grasp and you making up the continual load of crap that Nazism is far left. Fails to understand the major factor that makes Nazism, Far right. Its certainly nearer the Far left than anything right wing. Being that the extremes of both left and right share far more policies and positions. Than those right and left of centre.

That does not then name Nazism far left. It simple shows the extreme ends of the spectrum. Share the some similar extreme positions, but are at polar opposites in regards to the social construct, race

So no matter how many times you prove you are an apologist for Nazism. Based on you being biased from a position of right wing yourself. To constantly deny the real horrors of far right ideology. That saw the genocide of countless peoples. Based on the hateful racist ideology. When people, as you do. Attempt to divert facts around far right extremism. You have created a state of mind, that is incapable of believing anything from a right wing political view point. Can cause harm. Its why you continually make these same repeated poor arguments that Nazism is far left to you.

Like most addicts, you are simple unable to be open minded and are led by your political biased emotions. It means you are incapable of seeing and understanding far right extremism. Your ideological beliefs, blind you to understand that there is such a thing as far right extremism.

Its why you constantly bore all of us with this incessant false claim. That to you Nazism was far left. Not only is that ignorant to claim, it mocks the countless people murdered by the Nazism, for their left wing beliefs

Its why you have never been able to convinced anyone on this Tommy

by Guest Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:35 pm

Brutus wrote:Only 1 uncovered at this time, but still worthy of a full investigation to see whether there are others associated with him.
This cannot be allowed to happen.

Serving Met Police officer, 21, arrested over ‘links to right-wing terror group’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11107767/met-police-arrest-terror-group/

No it cannot be allowed to happen

It also shows how effective our intelligence systems are to uncover this extremist

The Police work off Intel. Its how they exposed this individual. You however cannot to presume this one incident requires further investigation, without a single lead to do so.???

WE do not operate from a system of paranoia. It has to be based on intelligence

Its why we do not immediately assume and suspect all Muslims as Islamic extremists

Just as we would not immediately suspect anyone with right of left wing views as extremists . Based on what extreme views a person holds, that has slipped through the net to join the Police. My position would be the same in regards to an officer who held extreme views on the left. That they should not then be a cause to investigate and view left wing people with suspicion.

Far left and far right ideologies are an issue though. There is no competition here. Both are extremely bad

Its why you would want those left of centre and right to unite against either far and left extremism

So what really is your point here? When we know there is issues with right and left wing extremism?

Or are you denying Labour under Corbyn had a problem with far left extremism?

There is never an excuse for far right or left extremism. Labour under Corbyn, happened to attract to the Labour party, just about every left wing extremist and anti-Semite

Hence I always condemn both the far right and left.

Do you condemn momentum which is far left?

Lets see how your view on extremism pans out?

I imagine its completely muddled.

by Tommy Monk Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:55 pm

Even the BNP said that they were the Labour party that our parents generation voted for...

by Guest Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:59 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Even the BNP said that they were the Labour party that our parents generation voted for...

Okay. So let me get this straight. Your evidence for the Nazi's being far left. Is based on the beliefs of the BNP?

Come again?

Is that not proving the link between the BNP and far right populism?

You are using a "nut picking fallacy" tommy

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:03 am

Aren't the BNP always labelled as being "far right/Nazi" ..!?

When in fact they are left wing national socialist party...!?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:09 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Aren't the BNP always labelled as being "far right/Nazi" ..!?

When in fact they are left wing national socialist party...!?

Like I said

Tommy is an apologist for Nazism

His denial of far right extremism. Says everything

Again Tommy knows the truth and continually lies.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:39 am

I am not apologising for, or denying the existence of, any political group... I am merely pointing out that what is so often labelled as "far right", is actually far left authoritarianist nationalist socialism...!

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:41 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

I am not apologising for, or denying the existence of, any political group... I am merely pointing out that what is so often labelled as "far right", is actually far left authoritarianist nationalist socialism...!

Hence you are pointing out you are an apologist for Nazism

As why else woulds anyone argue that Nazism was FAR LEFT?

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:49 am

Me saying Nazism was far left doesn't make it any nicer because it is left wing national socialism...

Do you think that by attaching the label of being left wing/socialist makes Nazism any nicer or cuddly...!?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:52 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Me saying Nazism was far left doesn't make it any nicer because it is left wing national socialism...

Do you think that by attaching the label of being left wing/socialist makes Nazism any nicer or cuddly...!?

wow

Are you claiming you are now a socialist tommy?

by JulesV Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:11 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Aren't the BNP always labelled as being "far right/Nazi" ..!?
When in fact they are left wing national socialist party...!?

Tommy Monk wrote:
I am not apologising for, or denying the existence of, any political group... I am merely pointing out that what is so often labelled as "far right", is actually far left authoritarianist nationalist socialism...!

Not this nonsense again, Tommy!
It is generally accepted that followers of Hitler's ideologies who do the Nazi salute are 'far right'.
Turning definitions back to front/upside down - is a strange way to try to win arguments.

It's like you don't want to see the Right ever criticised, under any circumstances.
The far Left is criticised nonstop on here, you have no problem with that.
But the very few times the far Right nazis are condemmed (to redress the balance and even things up) you jump in to say that the nazis are actually the Left too.

by JulesV Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:24 am

Maddog wrote:
Brutus wrote:Only 1 uncovered at this time, but still worthy of a full investigation to see whether there are others associated with him.
This cannot be allowed to happen.

Serving Met Police officer, 21, arrested over ‘links to right-wing terror group’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11107767/met-police-arrest-terror-group/

People attracted to law enforcement are often authoritarian in nature.
This shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone.

People attracted to law enforcement should themselves uphold the law. Rather than act as if they are above it.
The group he joined wasn't merely authoritarian - it was downright illegal. The law enforcer broke the law.

by JulesV Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:37 am

Brutus wrote:Only 1 uncovered at this time, but still worthy of a full investigation to see whether there are others associated with him.
This cannot be allowed to happen.

Serving Met Police officer, 21, arrested over ‘links to right-wing terror group’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11107767/met-police-arrest-terror-group/

I don't know which group he joined but it must have been an extreme one, for him to be thrown into a prison cell.

You cannot have your cake and eat it.
As a cop he has more power, more respect, perks and privileges and than his peers in other jobs. He also has a great salary and better career opportunities than them. A huge amount of public trust is bestowed on him.

In return for all that he should be scrupulously fair-minded and unbiased towards everyone, that's the deal.
If he breaks the deal, he can bugger off.

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:06 am

JulesV wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Aren't the BNP always labelled as being "far right/Nazi" ..!?
When in fact they are left wing national socialist party...!?
Tommy Monk wrote:
I am not apologising for, or denying the existence of, any political group... I am merely pointing out that what is so often labelled as "far right", is actually far left authoritarianist nationalist socialism...!

Not this nonsense again, Tommy!
It is generally accepted that followers of Hitler's ideologies who do the Nazi salute are 'far right'.
Turning definitions back to front/upside down - is a strange way to try to win arguments.

It's like you don't want to see the Right ever criticised, under any circumstances.
The far Left is criticised nonstop on here, you have no problem with that.
But the very few times the far Right nazis are condemmed (to redress the balance and even things up) you jump in to say that the nazis are actually the Left too.

I'm more than happy for criticism of right wing politics where criticism is due... I'm just against the misrepresentation of far left national/state socialism /Nazism/fascism as being of the right wing of politics...

by Eilzel Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:25 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
JulesV wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Aren't the BNP always labelled as being "far right/Nazi" ..!?
When in fact they are left wing national socialist party...!?
Tommy Monk wrote:
I am not apologising for, or denying the existence of, any political group... I am merely pointing out that what is so often labelled as "far right", is actually far left authoritarianist nationalist socialism...!

Not this nonsense again, Tommy!
It is generally accepted that followers of Hitler's ideologies who do the Nazi salute are 'far right'.
Turning definitions back to front/upside down - is a strange way to try to win arguments.

It's like you don't want to see the Right ever criticised, under any circumstances.
The far Left is criticised nonstop on here, you have no problem with that.
But the very few times the far Right nazis are condemmed (to redress the balance and even things up) you jump in to say that the nazis are actually the Left too.

I'm more than happy for criticism of right wing politics where criticism is due... I'm just against the misrepresentation of far left national/state socialism /Nazism/fascism as being of the right wing of politics...

It's not misrepresentation.

Extreme LW politics aims to make everyone equal, specifically in terms of income (which almost no credible LWer today sees as a worthy cause, preferring equality of opportunity instead).

But the aim of LW politics is full equality. The disasters of LW policies in the 20th century came by making everyone equally poor, and the systems sucked.

Was the aim of Nazism to make everyone economically equal?

No. This is apparent in their economic policies; their industrial policy and so on.

Again, you are getting hung up on a name. Hitler and the Nazi's used the socialists and had most of them executed later.
The National Socialist party was ultimately as socialist as the Democratic Republic of Korea is democratic.

by 'Wolfie Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:26 am

Tommy is the only person on Newsfix so ignorantly stupid, that he still claims that Nazism and Fascism are "left wing" idealogies...

Then again, Tommy is a self-declared "genius" (despite his obvious lack of education, and his inbred inability to understand any science or maths in front of him..).

What can you do against his self-declared I.Q. of 147,365, 277, 975.345 ?

"Here I am, brain the size of a planet.." :
https://youtu.be/1jLIRJwfZhg

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:16 am

There are none so blind than those who refuse to see...

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:02 pm

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:50 pm

Multiple posts on social media have claimed that the Nazi party were socialists, due to their full name—the National Socialist German Workers' Party.

This argument has been used to attack socialism through association with Nazi policies. It has also led to confusion, as Nazism is normally associated with fascism and far-right-wing views.

The issue of whether the Nazis were socialists isn’t a straightforward one, due to how the Nazi party developed and grew its base of support. But the consensus among historians is that the Nazis, and Hitler in particular, were not socialists in any meaningful sense.

Historians have regularly disavowed claims that Hitler adhered to socialist ideology. Historian Richard Evans wrote of the Nazis’ incorporation of socialist into their name in 1920, “Despite the change of name, however, it would be wrong to see Nazism as a form of, or an outgrowth from, socialism….Nazism was in some ways an extreme counter-ideology to socialism”. Or as simply put by historian and Hitler expert Ian Kershaw, “Hitler was never a socialist.”

Socialism, for supporters of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, appeared to substitute Marx’s idea of class war with a race one.

The Nazis didn’t create the term “National socialism” themselves; both the left-leaning Czech National Socialist Party and right-leaning Austrian National socialism movement predated the Nazi party in Germany. The term was added to the party’s title in 1920—turning the German Worker’s Party into the National Socialist German Worker’s Party. This, along with their manifesto, was done to appeal to the working classes.

This can lead to confusion as to what national socialism meant. Though they sometimes described themselves as socialist, their general ideology and treatment of left-wing figures reflected their true views.

In Hitler’s speeches, he established his idea of socialism as something only for select Germans the Nazi party deemed worthy. In his 1920 speech “Why We Are Anti-Semites” he claimed Judaism was the opposite of socialism by aligning it with capitalism at a time when Germany’s workers were suffering.

In the same year, the party outlined their party programme, which included a number of points which could be seen to align with socialist and anti-capitalist ideals. However, historian of the period Karl Dietrich Bracher has referred to the programme as “propaganda” through which Hitler gained support and then discarded once he achieved power.

Hitler worked closely with industrialists—in 1933 he held a meeting with a number of German industrial figures and gained their trust by speaking of the communist threat. In return, they gave millions of Reichmarks to fund the Nazi party in the upcoming elections. Many developed close relationships with the Nazi regime and flourished under the ideology—the Krupp family supplied Germany with arms during World War Two, readily dismissed Jewish employees, and it's then head Alfried Krupp joined the Nazi party in 1938.

Hitler also suppressed trade unions and refused to give the homes of German princes to the people, as he felt this would move the party towards communism.

Socialists, along with other left-wing political activists opposed the Nazi regime and were persecuted under it. The Communist Party and Social Democratic Party (SPD) of Germany were banned in 1933, along with the limitation of the power of all those who opposed Nazi rule. Many SPD members were arrested, sent to concentration camps, or exiled to Prague, Paris and London. The first concentration camp in Dachau, built-in 1933, was intended to inter the Nazi’s left-wing opponents. Hitler was also vocally critical of the “November criminals”—those who led Germany after the First World War and signed the Armistice and the Treaty of Versailles. These leaders were social democrats.

More left-leaning members of the Nazi party were also targeted; Otto Strasser and his brother Gregor followed a strand of Nazism that wanted to remove the elites Hitler courted from power. Gregor was killed along with other pro-worker members during the Night Of the Long Knives.

We would like to thank Dr David Motadel for his help reviewing this article.

This article is part of our work fact checking potentially false pictures, videos and stories on Facebook. You can read more about this—and find out how to report Facebook content—here. For the purposes of that scheme, we’ve rated this claim as false as the Nazis were not socialists.

https://fullfact.org/online/nazis-socialists/

by Tommy Monk Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html

by eddie Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Even the BNP said that they were the Labour party that our parents generation voted for...

That’s absolute nonsense Tommy. Seriously.

by Ben Reilly Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:27 pm

In a nutshell, the massive fucking difference between leftism and national socialism is that leftism is egalitarian and inclusive, where national socialism gives privilege to natives or to a certain ethnicity.

Lefties believe you can be great or terrible regardless of your skin color. Nazis, and racial supremacists throughout the world, believe that some colors are better than others -- much like Tommy does.

There are supremacists among every ethnicity. There are black people in America that subscribe to the "melanin theory" that darker skin makes you a superior human being. There have been Japanese politicians who fought against importing rice from other countries using the argument that Japanese people can only thrive on Japanese rice.

It really all boils down to racism, and there are racists among every race.

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:38 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:In a nutshell, the massive fucking difference between leftism and national socialism is that leftism is egalitarian and inclusive, where national socialism gives privilege to natives or to a certain ethnicity.

Lefties believe you can be great or terrible regardless of your skin color. Nazis, and racial supremacists throughout the world, believe that some colors are better than others -- much like Tommy does.

There are supremacists among every ethnicity. There are black people in America that subscribe to the "melanin theory" that darker skin makes you a superior human being. There have been Japanese politicians who fought against importing rice from other countries using the argument that Japanese people can only thrive on Japanese rice.

It really all boils down to racism, and there are racists among every race.

Er no t it is not inclusive

It teaches a view of hateful stances towards those better off

How the fuck is that inclusive?

The fact is the worst supremacists throughout history have tended to be on the left

This is the reality you do not want to face ben.

That you ignore people who hate others based on their well being and class

That is when left leaning ideas fall apart

by Ben Reilly Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:41 pm

Thorin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:In a nutshell, the massive fucking difference between leftism and national socialism is that leftism is egalitarian and inclusive, where national socialism gives privilege to natives or to a certain ethnicity.

Lefties believe you can be great or terrible regardless of your skin color. Nazis, and racial supremacists throughout the world, believe that some colors are better than others -- much like Tommy does.

There are supremacists among every ethnicity. There are black people in America that subscribe to the "melanin theory" that darker skin makes you a superior human being. There have been Japanese politicians who fought against importing rice from other countries using the argument that Japanese people can only thrive on Japanese rice.

It really all boils down to racism, and there are racists among every race.

Er no t it is not inclusive

It teaches a view of hateful stances towards those better off

How the fuck is that inclusive?

The fact is the worst supremacists throughout history have tended to be on the left

This is the reality you do not want to face ben.

That you ignore people who hate others based on their well being and class

That is when left leaning ideas fall apart

The left doesn't tell people to hate the rich. That's what the right tells people that the left tells people.

I don't hate the rich, I just think we should raise their taxes to create a better society for everyone, including the rich.

How is that hateful?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:43 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Er no t it is not inclusive

It teaches a view of hateful stances towards those better off

How the fuck is that inclusive?

The fact is the worst supremacists throughout history have tended to be on the left

This is the reality you do not want to face ben.

That you ignore people who hate others based on their well being and class

That is when left leaning ideas fall apart

The left doesn't tell people to hate the rich. That's what the right tells people that the left tells people.

I don't hate the rich, I just think we should raise their taxes to create a better society for everyone, including the rich.

How is that hateful?

Really, exactly what history have you been taught?

Are you now denying the hate taught under communism?

Yet another pathetic left wing apologist

by Ben Reilly Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:51 pm

Thorin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Er no t it is not inclusive

It teaches a view of hateful stances towards those better off

How the fuck is that inclusive?

The fact is the worst supremacists throughout history have tended to be on the left

This is the reality you do not want to face ben.

That you ignore people who hate others based on their well being and class

That is when left leaning ideas fall apart

The left doesn't tell people to hate the rich. That's what the right tells people that the left tells people.

I don't hate the rich, I just think we should raise their taxes to create a better society for everyone, including the rich.

How is that hateful?

Really, exactly what history have you been taught?

Are you now denying the hate taught under communism?

Yet another pathetic left wing apologist

Why would you expect me, of all people, to consider communists legitimately left? They're too authoritarian to be true lefties. Authoritarianism and liberalism don't mix. I'm American, remember?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:54 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Really, exactly what history have you been taught?

Are you now denying the hate taught under communism?

Yet another pathetic left wing apologist

Why would you expect me, of all people, to consider communists legitimately left? They're too authoritarian to be true lefties. Authoritarianism and liberalism don't mix. I'm American, remember?

Legitimately left?

That is like Tommy claiming the Nazis were left wing

For someone atheist, you hold this preconceived ideals

That only left wing ideals are correct and right

I find such a position idiotic and ignorant to be honest

Both thew right and left have extremes

For you to attempt to disassociate extremism from, the left as not leftist ideals. Shows you have not learnt a damn thing from history

by Maddog Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:13 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:In a nutshell, the massive fucking difference between leftism and national socialism is that leftism is egalitarian and inclusive, where national socialism gives privilege to natives or to a certain ethnicity.

Lefties believe you can be great or terrible regardless of your skin color. Nazis, and racial supremacists throughout the world, believe that some colors are better than others -- much like Tommy does.

There are supremacists among every ethnicity. There are black people in America that subscribe to the "melanin theory" that darker skin makes you a superior human being. There have been Japanese politicians who fought against importing rice from other countries using the argument that Japanese people can only thrive on Japanese rice.

It really all boils down to racism, and there are racists among every race.

Leftists can go off the rails and be just as deadly as those on the right.

by Maddog Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:14 pm

Jesus.

Nazis are no longer right, and commies are no longer left?

by Guest Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:16 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:In a nutshell, the massive fucking difference between leftism and national socialism is that leftism is egalitarian and inclusive, where national socialism gives privilege to natives or to a certain ethnicity.

Lefties believe you can be great or terrible regardless of your skin color. Nazis, and racial supremacists throughout the world, believe that some colors are better than others -- much like Tommy does.

There are supremacists among every ethnicity. There are black people in America that subscribe to the "melanin theory" that darker skin makes you a superior human being. There have been Japanese politicians who fought against importing rice from other countries using the argument that Japanese people can only thrive on Japanese rice.

It really all boils down to racism, and there are racists among every race.

Leftists can go off the rails and be just as deadly as those on the right.

Indeed, its sheer nonsense. Political ideologies has now overtaken religious ones., In regards to stupidity

by Victorismyhero Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:42 pm

one might say that, given the police response to the grooming gangs (or rather lack thereof) that the far left have infiltrated far deeper....

by eddie Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:09 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:one might say that, given the police response to the grooming gangs (or rather lack thereof) that the far left have infiltrated far deeper....

The grooming gang scenario was a terrible “left” thing.
Doesn’t mean all left “things” are the same.

by Ben Reilly Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:18 pm

Indeed, and I've never said that everything the left has come up with is good. But I'm a product of American and Western European liberalism, in which shit like gulags, state control of industry and, last but not least, genocide are definitely frowned upon.

Part of that tradition is progressivism, which is all about trying new ideas, accepting when they don't work, and trying to perfect the systems under which everyone has to live under the notion that the system should serve the people rather than vice-versa.

So yeah -- I can easily admit and accept that certain ideas that the Western left has come out with, such as prohibition and eugenics, are terrible.

At the same time, I don't have to "admit" that the left was wrong when it comes to authoritarianism, simply because there has been no major leftwing movement within Western European liberalism that has ever enforced or embraced authoritarianism.

by Original Quill Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:34 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Indeed, and I've never said that everything the left has come up with is good. But I'm a product of American and Western European liberalism, in which shit like gulags, state control of industry and, last but not least, genocide are definitely frowned upon.

Part of that tradition is progressivism, which is all about trying new ideas, accepting when they don't work, and trying to perfect the systems under which everyone has to live under the notion that the system should serve the people rather than vice-versa.

So yeah -- I can easily admit and accept that certain ideas that the Western left has come out with, such as prohibition and eugenics, are terrible.

At the same time, I don't have to "admit" that the left was wrong when it comes to authoritarianism, simply because there has been no major leftwing movement within Western European liberalism that has ever enforced or embraced authoritarianism.

At least the progressives, like the Democratic Party, are dedicated to problem solving and decent, above-board governing. They are not like Republicans and conservatives, who serve no purpose when they get into government, but to line their own pockets and get fatter.

It's the classic public servant vs. the special, selfish interests.

by JulesV Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:24 am

Victorismyhero wrote:one might say that, given the police response to the grooming gangs (or rather lack thereof)

that the far left have infiltrated far deeper....

This story is about an officer who is allegedly an active member of a banned RW extremist group.
There have been no reports of any officer being a member of any banned LW organisation. Have the far right infiltrated the British police? 2190311264

Have the far right infiltrated the British police? 2190311264

by JulesV Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:39 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
I'm more than happy for criticism of right wing politics where criticism is due... I'm just against the misrepresentation of far left national/state socialism /Nazism/fascism as being of the right wing of politics...

You say that,....... but often when the RW is criticised you jump in and say they are LW.
It's like you regard the term ''RW'' as a protected brand whose reputation should never be sullied.

You say you are happy for bad behaviour to be criticised.
Be also happy for the RIGHT to be called by their RIGHTful name.

Praising Hitler and his supremacist ideologies ''heil hitler, death to the untermensch'' and making the nazi salute is most definitely RW nazi activity (even the article uses the word nazi) - and that's an end to it.

by Tommy Monk Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:21 am

No... It is Nazi behaviour... Which is a far left brand of national socialism... Or otherwise known as state socialism.

by Victorismyhero Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

No... It is Nazi behaviour... Which is a far left brand of national socialism... Or otherwise known as state socialism.

Now THAT........is an interesting concept, even if it leads to the wrong conclusion, since communism inevitably leads to "state capitalism"

however tommy, under your ideas that would mean that communist russia was in fact Right wing, so.......................

by Tommy Monk Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:03 pm

No because they had complete control over the means of production.

by Maddog Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:00 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Indeed, and I've never said that everything the left has come up with is good. But I'm a product of American and Western European liberalism, in which shit like gulags, state control of industry and, last but not least, genocide are definitely frowned upon.

Part of that tradition is progressivism, which is all about trying new ideas, accepting when they don't work, and trying to perfect the systems under which everyone has to live under the notion that the system should serve the people rather than vice-versa.

So yeah -- I can easily admit and accept that certain ideas that the Western left has come out with, such as prohibition and eugenics, are terrible.

At the same time, I don't have to "admit" that the left was wrong when it comes to authoritarianism, simply because there has been no major leftwing movement within Western European liberalism that has ever enforced or embraced authoritarianism.

Europe has seen state control of many industries. The Nordic states saw a great deal of that before they swung back around to a capitalist system.

When leftists that have implemented gulags and such take power, are the gulags mentioned before or after they take power?

by JulesV Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:57 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

No... It is Nazi behaviour... Which is a far left brand of national socialism... Or otherwise known as state socialism.

Look, instead of arguing with little Jules, why not take your pedantic arguments to the big boys who actually write these articles? They all use 'RW' and 'Nazi' pretty much synonymously and interchangeably.

These journalists prefer to communicate in the way ordinary people generally speak, they have little time for obscure academic points. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-officer-terror-arrest-met-london-right-wing-group-a9379641.html

by Tommy Monk Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:06 pm

Doesn't make it correct...

by Guest Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:34 pm

Yes it does.
Tommy Monk is coming from a position where he honestly believes the ONLY fair and decent point on the political barometer is the far right wing. Centre, left and far left are either corrupt, rotten or just plain wrong in the world viewed through his eyes.
But he is too blinkered and board to see the benefits that are derived from parts of each political wing.

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