And then there were two, old, white guys...

Tom, Pete and Amy have dropped out of the primary race. Bloomberg is a Republican, in sheep's clothing. That leaves Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

These guys are older even than Trump. Y'all better size up the vice-presidential candidates, because they will be the ones finishing out the term.

Original Quill wrote:Tom, Pete and Amy have dropped out of the primary race.  Bloomberg is a Republican, in sheep's clothing.  That leaves Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

These guys are older even than Trump.  Y'all better size up the vice-presidential candidates, because they will be the ones finishing out the term.

Moderates are wetting themselves over Sanders

I'd like a Sanders/Warren ticket, though totally expecting the DNC to screw Bernie at the convention, gift Trump the mantra of labelling his opponents as the UNdemocratic party and destroying hopeless Joe in the debates.

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Tom, Pete and Amy have dropped out of the primary race.  Bloomberg is a Republican, in sheep's clothing.  That leaves Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

These guys are older even than Trump.  Y'all better size up the vice-presidential candidates, because they will be the ones finishing out the term.

Moderates are wetting themselves over Sanders

I'd like a Sanders/Warren ticket, though totally expecting the DNC to screw Bernie at the convention, gift Trump the mantra of labelling his opponents as the UNdemocratic party and destroying hopeless Joe in the debates.

Bernie isn't a Dem. I'm not sure how much loyalty the Dems owe a man who has consistently run as an independent and a few other parties long gone.

If Bernie gets screwed, he should run as an independent. Heck, he should have been running as an independent or a socialist the whole time.

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Tom, Pete and Amy have dropped out of the primary race.  Bloomberg is a Republican, in sheep's clothing.  That leaves Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

These guys are older even than Trump.  Y'all better size up the vice-presidential candidates, because they will be the ones finishing out the term.

Moderates are wetting themselves over Sanders

I'd like a Sanders/Warren ticket, though totally expecting the DNC to screw Bernie at the convention, gift Trump the mantra of labelling his opponents as the UNdemocratic party and destroying hopeless Joe in the debates.

Bernie isn't a Dem. I'm not sure how much loyalty the Dems owe a man who has consistently run as an independent and a few other parties long gone.  

If Bernie gets screwed, he should run as an independent.  Heck, he should have been running as an independent or a socialist the whole time.  

He isn't really a socialist though

And the fact is (as you being a libertarian should know) your system really screws anyone outside the two party structure. Bernie knows to change America he NEEDS to run with one of the big two. And he has, from most accounts, worked with the Democrats and voted with them more often than not on major progressive issues.

If he loses the convention and runs as an independent then it guarantees a Trump victory. If he loses the convention and supports the Democratic appointed one, then that one will lose anyway - but if he gets screwed I doubt he would be all the supportive.

The best chance of getting Trump out is respecting the nominee with the most elected delegates, but we'll see how democratic the Democratic party truly is soon enough.

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Bernie isn't a Dem. I'm not sure how much loyalty the Dems owe a man who has consistently run as an independent and a few other parties long gone.  

If Bernie gets screwed, he should run as an independent.  Heck, he should have been running as an independent or a socialist the whole time.  

He isn't really a socialist though

And the fact is (as you being a libertarian should know) your system really screws anyone outside the two party structure. Bernie knows to change America he NEEDS to run with one of the big two. And he has, from most accounts, worked with the Democrats and voted with them more often than not on major progressive issues.

If he loses the convention and runs as an independent then it guarantees a Trump victory. If he loses the convention and supports the Democratic appointed one, then that one will lose anyway - but if he gets screwed I doubt he would be all the supportive.

The best chance of getting Trump out is respecting the nominee with the most elected delegates, but we'll see how democratic the Democratic party truly is soon enough.

The Democratic Socialist of America call themselves socialists and they have endorsed him. He used to call himself a socialist. Maybe he changed, maybe he learned to play the game better?

Our system has supported 3rd parties in the past. The two major parties have worked together to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. Bernie could be the guy that changes that. Especially if he wins a plurality of delegates and loses the nomination of a "shady party.

I mean if Trump is going to stop Joe anyway.......

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Bernie isn't a Dem. I'm not sure how much loyalty the Dems owe a man who has consistently run as an independent and a few other parties long gone.  

If Bernie gets screwed, he should run as an independent.  Heck, he should have been running as an independent or a socialist the whole time.  

He isn't really a socialist though

And the fact is (as you being a libertarian should know) your system really screws anyone outside the two party structure. Bernie knows to change America he NEEDS to run with one of the big two. And he has, from most accounts, worked with the Democrats and voted with them more often than not on major progressive issues.

If he loses the convention and runs as an independent then it guarantees a Trump victory. If he loses the convention and supports the Democratic appointed one, then that one will lose anyway - but if he gets screwed I doubt he would be all the supportive.

The best chance of getting Trump out is respecting the nominee with the most elected delegates, but we'll see how democratic the Democratic party truly is soon enough.

The Democratic Socialist of America call themselves socialists and they have endorsed him. He used to call himself a socialist. Maybe he changed, maybe he learned to play the game better?  

Our system has supported 3rd parties in the past. The two major parties have worked together to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. Bernie could be the guy that changes that. Especially if he wins a plurality of delegates and loses the nomination of a "shady party.

I mean if Trump is going to stop Joe anyway.......

Is Bernie planning to end private enterprise and introduce a command economy?

If not he isn't a real socialist. He is barely even more left than Boris Johnson if we're totally honest.

Of coursw words evolve, and now Democratic Socialist us really a Social Democrat which is really just a capitalist who wants more regulations and wealth redistribution.

We'll see what happens. Personally I still hope the Dems do the only right thing and go with the nominee who has the most delegates.

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The Democratic Socialist of America call themselves socialists and they have endorsed him. He used to call himself a socialist. Maybe he changed, maybe he learned to play the game better?  

Our system has supported 3rd parties in the past. The two major parties have worked together to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. Bernie could be the guy that changes that. Especially if he wins a plurality of delegates and loses the nomination of a "shady party.

I mean if Trump is going to stop Joe anyway.......

Is Bernie planning to end private enterprise and introduce a command economy?

If not he isn't a real socialist. He is barely even more left than Boris Johnson if we're totally honest.

Of coursw words evolve, and now Democratic Socialist us really a Social Democrat which is really just a capitalist who wants more regulations and wealth redistribution.

We'll see what happens. Personally I still hope the Dems do the only right thing and go with the nominee who has the most delegates.

The Democratic Socialists of America want to replace capitalism with social or government ownership over the means of production. Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist and they endorse him.

Bernie might say he wants something like Sweden. So did Chavez. A lot of autocrats start out with a different tune than they finish with.

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The Democratic Socialist of America call themselves socialists and they have endorsed him. He used to call himself a socialist. Maybe he changed, maybe he learned to play the game better?  

Our system has supported 3rd parties in the past. The two major parties have worked together to make sure that doesn't happen anymore. Bernie could be the guy that changes that. Especially if he wins a plurality of delegates and loses the nomination of a "shady party.

I mean if Trump is going to stop Joe anyway.......

Is Bernie planning to end private enterprise and introduce a command economy?

If not he isn't a real socialist. He is barely even more left than Boris Johnson if we're totally honest.

Of coursw words evolve, and now Democratic Socialist us really a Social Democrat which is really just a capitalist who wants more regulations and wealth redistribution.

We'll see what happens. Personally I still hope the Dems do the only right thing and go with the nominee who has the most delegates.

The Democratic Socialists of America want to replace capitalism with social or government ownership over the means of production. Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist and they endorse him.  

Bernie might say he wants something like Sweden.  So did Chavez.  A lot of autocrats start out with a different tune than they finish with.  

Do you honestly believe Sanders plans to overthrow the capitalist economy?

I mean, if you do that's fine, but I think you are wildly wrong. I doubt I'm going to convince you otherwise though

Also, just because someone endorses a candidate or party, does not mean they shares the values. The EDL's Tommy Robinson supports Boris Johnson and the Conservatives, and while I dislike BoJo, I don't actually believe he shares those views. Nor do I think Trump shares the values of the KKK.

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Is Bernie planning to end private enterprise and introduce a command economy?

If not he isn't a real socialist. He is barely even more left than Boris Johnson if we're totally honest.

Of coursw words evolve, and now Democratic Socialist us really a Social Democrat which is really just a capitalist who wants more regulations and wealth redistribution.

We'll see what happens. Personally I still hope the Dems do the only right thing and go with the nominee who has the most delegates.

The Democratic Socialists of America want to replace capitalism with social or government ownership over the means of production. Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist and they endorse him.  

Bernie might say he wants something like Sweden.  So did Chavez.  A lot of autocrats start out with a different tune than they finish with.  

Chavez was never a genuine "socialist", either...

He was always an "Stalinist" autocrat at heart..

With links to overseas 'Big Oil' companies, as well -- they have to sell their oil somewhere.


Sanders has shown no sign of being a communist autocrat -- but that doesn't stop the far right propagandists over there labelling him as such..

Just mention "national health services" and "unemployment support" in the USA, and one gets labelled a "communist", "un-American" and "traitor !" -- despite places as varied as Oz, NZ, Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, Japan and Singapore having various systems in place..

I still struggle to accept that in a country the size of the US, with only 2 viable parties, it is impossible to unearth a wealthy, credible and electable Democratic candidate under 60 years of age.
If the can find another Obama, smooth, charming, charismatic and good looking, they would kick Trump out of office comfortably.

Brutus wrote:I still struggle to accept that in a country the size of the US, with only 2 viable parties, it is impossible to unearth a wealthy, credible and electable Democratic candidate under 60 years of age.
If the can find another Obama, smooth, charming, charismatic and good looking, they would kick Trump out of office comfortably.

You need to add 'with actual convictions' to that mix, cause Mayor Pete had all those but was as ideologically bankrupt as a 5 year old and slippery as a result

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The Democratic Socialists of America want to replace capitalism with social or government ownership over the means of production. Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist and they endorse him.  

Bernie might say he wants something like Sweden.  So did Chavez.  A lot of autocrats start out with a different tune than they finish with.  

Do you honestly believe Sanders plans to overthrow the capitalist economy?

I mean, if you do that's fine, but I think you are wildly wrong. I doubt I'm going to convince you otherwise though

Also, just because someone endorses a candidate or party, does not mean they shares the values. The EDL's Tommy Robinson supports Boris Johnson and the Conservatives, and while I dislike BoJo, I don't actually believe he shares those views. Nor do I think Trump shares the values of the KKK.

I believe the DSA when they say it's their goal. I believe the DSA when they say it wont happen over night and electing Bernie would be the first step.

Bernie has been all over the place politically during the past 50 years. Maybe we will get to find out exactly where he is now in less than a year.

Agree or disagree with Bernie Sanders, at least he’s consistent—or so he claims. “Having a long record,” the Vermont senator said in October, “gives people the understanding that these ideas that I’m talking about—they are in my guts. They are in my heart. This is who I am as a human being, and it ain’t gonna change.”

That’s true up to a point. During half a century in public life, Mr. Sanders has dependably denounced “oligarchy” and proclaimed himself a “democratic socialist.” But his definition of the term has radically changed. Last year he said his goal was “an economy in which you have wealth being created by the private sector, but you have a fair distribution of that wealth.” He added: “I think that countries like Denmark and Sweden do very well.”

He had a different vision in the 1970s, when he sought statewide office four times as the nominee of the Liberty Union Party of Vermont. Campaigning for U.S. Senate in 1971, he demanded the nationalization of utilities. In 1973 he proposed a federal takeover of “the entire energy industry,” and in 1974 he wanted a 100% tax on all income above $1 million. In 1976 he asserted that workers needed to “take immediate control of the economy if we are to survive” and called for “public ownership of utilities, banks and major industries.” He had a plan for “public control over capital.” As late as 1987 he asserted that “democracy means public ownership of the major means of production.”


https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-socialist-evolution-of-bernie-sanders-11580673878


Maybe he has evolved, maybe he has learned how to get elected.

Maddog wrote:The Democratic Socialist of America call themselves socialists and they have endorsed him. He used to call himself a socialist. Maybe he changed, maybe he learned to play the game better?  

People who attach labels and argue them, are just making spurious points.  The American Nazi Party routinely endorses candidates--is the candidate responsible for that?  Unless one is willing to get into a candidate's agenda, it’s just slinging mud.

People who still think socialism is a hobgoblin need to grow up.  Socialism is a useful tool in situations where the free market does not fill the void.  The US military--Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard--is a completely socialist organization, and it works very well.  Police, fire departments, hospitals and ambulance services are all socialist enterprises.  Anytime the free market doesn't offer up an essential service, the government must step in and provide it.

That’s why it is meaningless to label a person, or a nation for that matter, a socialist one.  Think of socialism as an adverb, not an adjective.  It describes a function (verb), not a thing (noun).  The function is the government providing a service, when the free market fails to fill a need.

Socialism is a resort also when the needs of the people demand that the function be held by all, not just a privileged few.  Free market capitalism is dedicated only to making profits for shareholders. It has no other purpose or incentive. Imagine if the US military was owned, and subject to the control of the DuPont de Nemours, Inc.  The Board of Directors would declare a war whenever its munitions subsidiary was not showing a profit.  The nice thing about socialism is that it doesn’t hold profit in higher regard than the well-being of the people.

Eilzel wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The Democratic Socialists of America want to replace capitalism with social or government ownership over the means of production. Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist and they endorse him.  

Bernie might say he wants something like Sweden.  So did Chavez.  A lot of autocrats start out with a different tune than they finish with.  

Do you honestly believe Sanders plans to overthrow the capitalist economy?

I mean, if you do that's fine, but I think you are wildly wrong. I doubt I'm going to convince you otherwise though

Also, just because someone endorses a candidate or party, does not mean they shares the values. The EDL's Tommy Robinson supports Boris Johnson and the Conservatives, and while I dislike BoJo, I don't actually believe he shares those views. Nor do I think Trump shares the values of the KKK.

BoJo doesn't claim any association with the EDL, nor Trump to the KKK.

Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist. Therefore, the beliefs of other Democratic Socialists is a bit more relevant.

Electoral Strategy

Bernie Sanders launched a political revolution and DSA continues to build it, training our chapters to effectively support democratic socialist candidates running for local and state office while lifting up our key issues. We’re also grappling with how to build independent political power to hold elected officials accountable to their constituents rather than the donor class.

https://www.dsausa.org/

Maddog wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

Do you honestly believe Sanders plans to overthrow the capitalist economy?

I mean, if you do that's fine, but I think you are wildly wrong. I doubt I'm going to convince you otherwise though

Also, just because someone endorses a candidate or party, does not mean they shares the values. The EDL's Tommy Robinson supports Boris Johnson and the Conservatives, and while I dislike BoJo, I don't actually believe he shares those views. Nor do I think Trump shares the values of the KKK.

BoJo doesn't claim any association with the EDL, nor Trump to the KKK.

Bernie calls himself a Democratic Socialist. Therefore, the beliefs of other Democratic Socialists is a bit more relevant.

Bullshit. You don't prove anything by making up loose associations, cherry-picking the variables you think are related. Look to the candidate's programs, and what s/he says they support.

I'm not even a Sanders supporter, yet even I can recognize a hatchet-job when I see one. You are a libertarian southerner, lagging behind in the 1950's with state's right dogma and anti-collectivist convictions.

Bernie calls himself an American. Therefore, the beliefs of other Americans "is a bit more relevant".

Funny how the same people who will plead for sanity and maturity when it comes to a candidate they're comfortable with will insist upon insanity and immaturity when it comes to a candidate who makes them squirm.

Original Quill wrote:Tom, Pete and Amy have dropped out of the primary race.  Bloomberg is a Republican, in sheep's clothing.  That leaves Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

These guys are older even than Trump.  Y'all better size up the vice-presidential candidates, because they will be the ones finishing out the term.

Isn’t this post a tad ageist?

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Tom, Pete and Amy have dropped out of the primary race. Bloomberg is a Republican, in sheep's clothing. That leaves Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders.

These guys are older even than Trump. Y'all better size up the vice-presidential candidates, because they will be the ones finishing out the term.

Isn’t this post a tad ageist?

First, I speak as an old, white man myself. Second, unfortunately (or fortunately) age is unlike skin color or ethnicity, in that it doesn't create divisions of privilege and distinction. Age is something we all must share as we go through life.

Note, I didn't say age is a deficit directly, but something that draws attention to who runs as vice-president. I reckon that person will likely become the real president you are voting into office.

Age comes with liabilities that are meaningful to our political positions. We have political terms to anticipate, from two years (congressman), to four years (president), to six years (senator). It's not disparaging if it's to do with reality, and the fact that an octogenarian may die in office is something one must accept as a very real possibility.

Last night on the news here, I saw an American "economist" lobbyist for the US health insurance industry claiming that establishing a national healthcare/Medicare system in the USA (similar to those already operating in Australia, France, NZ, Britain, Canada, etc.), would entail "tripling the payroll taxes for 'middle income' Americans"   !!!

This is the kind of outrageous corporatist propaganda lies that anyone pushing more socially responsible policies in the USA has to face up to..

Where health funds and private hospitals continually push the line that it is the 'American way' to allow corporations to rob you blind, and 'communistic' and "Un-Amerikun" to offer a minimum level of healthcare, while giving more choices to average citizens.        

'Wolfie wrote:

Last night on the news here, I saw an American "economist" lobbyist for the US health insurance industry claiming that establishing a national healthcare/Medicare system in the USA (similar to those already operating in Australia, France, NZ, Britain, Canada, etc.), would entail "tripling the payroll taxes for 'middle income' Americans"   !!!

This is the kind of outrageous corporatist propaganda lies that anyone pushing more socially responsible policies in the USA has to face up to..

Where health funds and private hospitals continually push the line that it is the 'American way' to allow corporations to rob you blind, and 'communistic' and "Un-Amerikun" to offer a minimum level of healthcare, while giving more choices to average citizens.        

Well, you know how Republicans lie.

I'll bet he didn't even mention defense spending, did he? I keep saying...all you have to do is merge the Department of Defense with the Department of Health, and let them smooth out the lumps. Stop buying toys for admirals, and lower the cost of CAT Scans.

You wouldn't even have to reduce the number of military personnel, either. Their payroll is nothing compared to the price tag of 100 new fighter jets that probably will never even be used.

Senator Elizabeth Warren drops out of the race.

Yesterday, former NYC mayor Mike Bloomberg dropped out.