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BoJo/Trump call off the wedding

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Business Insider wrote:Boris Johnson has canceled his planned trip to the White House after Trump slammed the phone down on him in a moment of 'apoplectic' fury
insider@insider.com (Adam Bienkov)
February 14, 2020

- UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has canceled a planned trip to meet with [impeached] President Donald Trump next month after a furious row between the two men.

- Johnson had been due to visit Washington shortly after his election victory in December.

- The visit has been repeatedly delayed, however, amid a series of disagreements between the two leaders.

- Trump slammed the phone down on Johnson last month after the prime minister defied him on the issue of Huawei's involvement in the UK.

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has canceled a trip to the US planned for next month after a furious phone call from President Donald Trump in which Trump slammed down the phone on the prime minister.

Johnson had been due to visit Washington last month but repeatedly delayed the trip after a series of rows with the president over Iran, Huawei, and a rejected request by the prime minister to extradite the wife of a US diplomat.

The disagreements culminated in a phone call last month in which Trump hung up on Johnson, according to officials with knowledge of the conversation.

Johnson has now canceled his trip altogether, according to the newspaper The Sun, now planning on forgoing a trip to the country until the G7 summit in June.

Downing Street insisted on Thursday that Johnson would concentrate instead on his domestic agenda over the coming months.

"When the Eye of Sauron is off the Whitehall machine, things stop working," one source told the paper.

"That is why he has stripped down all his foreign travel this year to get his agenda done."

The prime minister had been one of Trump's few close international allies, with the president labeling Johnson "fantastic," a "good man," and "Britain Trump."

Relations broke down in recent weeks, however, following a series of high-profile threats from Trump and a series of pointed interventions against Trump by Johnson and senior members of his government.

The call last month, which one source described to the Financial Times as "very difficult," came after Johnson defied Trump and allowed the Chinese telecom company Huawei the rights to develop the UK's 5G network.

Johnson backed Huawei despite multiple threats by Trump and his allies that the US would withdraw security cooperation with the UK if the deal went ahead. The US fears that Huawei's technology could have backdoors for the Chinese government.

Trump's threats reportedly "irritated" the UK government, with Johnson frustrated at the president's failure to suggest any alternatives.

Following the call, US Vice President Mike Pence said the Trump administration had made its disappointment with the UK "very clear to them."

Interesting...evil can only do evil, even to each other.  This is why criminals cannot enterprise.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:35 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:What has Huawei got to do with whether we agree to lower tariffs on cars or clothes or food etc...!?

A straight question deserves a straight answer.

Business Insider wrote:Johnson had been due to visit Washington last month but repeatedly delayed the trip after a series of rows with the president over Iran, Huawei, and a rejected request by the prime minister to extradite the wife of a US diplomat.

As things stand the UK and the US are at an impasse over Huawei. When Trump goes into vindictive mode, he never goes back. To do so he would have to admit he was wrong, and he has no tolerance for any criticism, let alone such an admission.

Without the EU, this is the wrong time to be losing friends.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:47 pm





We already trade quite happily with the US on current terms... We don't need a trade deal to trade with anyone.



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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:What has Huawei got to do with whether we agree to lower tariffs on cars or clothes or food etc...!?

A straight question deserves a straight answer.

Business Insider wrote:Johnson had been due to visit Washington last month but repeatedly delayed the trip after a series of rows with the president over Iran, Huawei, and a rejected request by the prime minister to extradite the wife of a US diplomat.

As things stand the UK and the US are at an impasse over Huawei.  When Trump goes into vindictive mode, he never goes back.  To do so he would have to admit he was wrong, and he has no tolerance for any criticism, let alone such an admission.

Without the EU, this is the wrong time to be losing friends.

Exactly. It's almost like tommy is sticking his fingers in his ears when it comes to the reality of international trade. The idea a nation can prosper while scuppering trade deals with major partners is laughably naive.

I have, however, given up on getting a straight answer.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:02 pm

We are not a dog waiting for the US to throw us a few scraps from their table of plenty...


As I said before... We already trade with the US quite happily on current terms... Any future proposal on lowering or zeroing trade tariffs must be in the UK interest otherwise we simply don't agree to it...



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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:43 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

A straight question deserves a straight answer.



As things stand the UK and the US are at an impasse over Huawei.  When Trump goes into vindictive mode, he never goes back.  To do so he would have to admit he was wrong, and he has no tolerance for any criticism, let alone such an admission.

Without the EU, this is the wrong time to be losing friends.

Exactly. It's almost like tommy is sticking his fingers in his ears when it comes to the reality of international trade. The idea a nation can prosper while scuppering trade deals with major partners is laughably naive.

I have, however, given up on getting a straight answer.


I keep giving you straight answers...


Maybe you have a problem with understanding...!?



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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:16 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:We are not a dog waiting for the US to throw us a few scraps from their table of plenty...

No, but you are hoping to run with the big dogs. It can't help that your are getting sideways with the biggest dog of all.

Tommy, we are not arguing over British pride. I want good fortune for the UK as much as you. We differ in what is prudential in achieving that common goal. BoJo and Trump having a falling-out cannot be a good sign.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:38 pm



We are happy running at our own pace...


And we are happy trading with the US on current terms...


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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:We are happy running at our own pace...

And we are happy trading with the US on current terms...

How long do you think that's going to last?

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:37 pm

Been the same for decades... so not going to matter much if it carries on like this for years/decades to come...



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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Been the same for decades... so not going to matter much if it carries on like this for years/decades to come...

That's exactly what they said before Trump was elected.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:22 pm

My My, if BoJo had rolled over for trump, leftys would have been screaming at him, if he stands up to him they scream at him.....

Trump will do what his corporate backers tell him to even more so than Johnson.....

personally i'd say its about time we had a govt that is prepared to "give the finger" to those who try to dictate to us....one with a bit of backbone...not something the left are known for.....

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:55 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:My My, if BoJo had rolled over for trump, leftys would have been screaming at him, if he stands up to him they scream at him.....

You are absolutely right. I don't blame you for wanting to kick Trump in the ass. But leftist response is totally beside the point. Because BoJo didn't Kowtow to Trump, it raises a different sort of problem: BoJo's economic woes.

It comes at a bad time. Britain is looking for trading partners, having just thumbed its nose at the EU. BoJo pisses Trump off at just the very time that Trump is learning the power of economic weaponery. Trump is becoming very aware of economic reprisal. He saw it with North Korea. He tried it with China. He learned it with Iran. He even tried to parley American aide to Ukraine into a personal advantage. Now he's inclined to impose it on every country the US has been supporting heretofore.

Here comes BoJo skipping along, and has a chance encounter with Trump. They get to talking and BoJo pisses Trump off (easy to do). Trump, already p.o.'ed that the US is carrying NATO's water, recalls the Brexit split. Trump's mind works in two ways: money and revenge. He immediately goes into revenge mode. He looks for something with just the right measure of revenge: not too loud; not to soft.

A-ha...BoJo is looking to shore trading partners. Why not just passively and silently refuse to renew trade agreements with Britain? Trump's devious intent kicks in...not too loud; not too soft.

We'll see.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:00 pm

Victor wrote:Trump will do what his corporate backers tell him to even more so than Johnson.....

Trump has no corporate backers. They left him after his 6th bankruptcy.

In order to get money he has turned to the Russian mafia. Trump does anything that Putin wants.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:01 pm

Victor wrote:personally i'd say its about time we had a govt that is prepared to "give the finger" to those who try to dictate to us....one with a bit of backbone...not something the left are known for.....

I agree. It's just a bad time. That's all.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:57 pm



It's not about Trump...


Our govt is there to do the best for this country...


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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:12 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

It's not about Trump...

Our govt is there to do the best for this country...

Okay...but just don't try to involve the US. Your govt. isn't doing too well there. Know what I mean?

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:03 am

Victorismyhero wrote:My My, if BoJo had rolled over for trump, leftys would have been screaming at him, if he stands up to him they scream at him.....

Trump will do what his corporate backers tell him to even more so than Johnson.....

personally i'd say its about time we had a govt that is prepared to "give the finger" to those who try to dictate to us....one with a bit of backbone...not something the left are known for.....

You are taking the situation out of context. Context is important.

If BoJo hadn't just spent months telling us how he'd negotiate amazing trade deals to make up for any impact EU trade, then it wouldn't look as bad.

But he did, and the US was one one of, if not the, biggest country paraded as among those that would fill the gap.

If this wasn't related to the same company Trump has spent months fighting a trade war over, it wouldn't be as bad.

But it is.

If this wasn't also a company with shady practices and raising cyber security issues then it wouldn't matter as much.

But it is.

So in the wake of Brexit, after months of bigging up a great US trade deal, Johnson immediate makes a deal with a shady Chinese company that the US is fighting a trade war over.

No one with a brain can believe that is a clever move, no one. Regardless of whether you want to wave the Union Flag while singing of independence, you must admit this move by BoJo is NOT helpful.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:33 am

Les... please stop talking absolute shite!?


We don't need to make any desperate trade deals to make up for anything!!!


You keep banging on about us leaving the EU as being some sort of economic shit hole scenario that means we somehow need rescuing... And not only rescuing, but being bent over and reamed out is something our freinds want to do to us, and that this is something we also want to be happening...!?


We can trade quite happily with anyone we choose...!!!


We can trade with the EU without being in the EU!


And we (can and do) already trade with everyone else that we want!!!


You don't need a trade deal to do trade!!!


lol!



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Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:26 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Les... please stop talking absolute shite!?


We don't need to make any desperate trade deals to make up for anything!!!


You keep banging on about us leaving the EU as being some sort of economic shit hole scenario that means we somehow need rescuing... And not only rescuing, but being bent over and reamed out is something our freinds want to do to us, and that this is something we also want to be happening...!?


We can trade quite happily with anyone we choose...!!!


We can trade with the EU without being in the EU!


And we (can and do) already trade with everyone else that we want!!!


You don't need a trade deal to do trade!!!


lol!



You really are the simpleton here.

I have a friend whose brother-in-law runs a medium sized retail company in the UK. He sells a huge amount to France and other EU countries, while also importing a lot too. He can does so easily because of the zero tax both ways. Once we lose access to the free market, that frictionless ease of trade ends and costs hit him both ways. Worse, some of his customers might just look to the continent since his offer will be more expensive.

He, as an SME, knows that this will be a massive hit to his income and is genuinely concerned for his business. And he is just one of many with these reality based worries (beyond wanting 'just a little bit of trade').

Having free trade with the EU has benefited the UK economy massively, not surprising as about 50% of our trade is with EU members.

Now we've lost membership, and a free trade deal looks remote. YES we can trade, obviously, stating that is not a revelation, not everyone is as simple minded as you. BUT, as is clear from actual business owners (not the likes of 'just a bit of low tariff trade' tommy), the terms of trade put UK exporters at a competetive disadvantage and WILL cost them.

In that context, negotiating beneficial trade deals with other large economies becomes vital to make up for some of that impact on BRITISH exporters.

None of this is complicated, it isn't about being bent over anything. It's pure common sense to not do things that would knowingly be detrimental to future trade talks with those potential partners in future.

Just 'trading' by WTO rules is NOT the lifeline you think it is. And I'd take the concerns of ACTUAL businesses over 'a little bit of trade' tommy any day of the week.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:37 pm

It's not a "free market"... It costs us 10-15 billion every year...


Plenty of countries trade with the EU without being in the EU...


And 95% of UK companies don't do any trade with the EU at all, but have been saddled with the cost of abiding by their rules for decades...


But the EU is not just about trade... is it...!?


Which is why 17.4 million people voted to leave!!!


And which is why so many millions of others across the 27 remaining countries are growing increasingly unhappy with the EU and want out of it too!!!



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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It's not a "free market"... It costs us 10-15 billion every year...

Plenty of countries trade with the EU without being in the EU...

And 95% of UK companies don't do any trade with the EU at all, but have been saddled with the cost of abiding by their rules for decades...

But the EU is not just about trade... is it...!?

Which is why 17.4 million people voted to leave!!!

And which is why so many millions of others across the 27 remaining countries are growing increasingly unhappy with the EU and want out of it too!!!

Tom, you are still arguing Brexit.  The EU is gone...fenis...kaput!  That is reality.  Now, pick yourself up from there.

I take it you agree that the UK needs trade?  In order to have trade, you must have trading partners.  They must be of a sort that your businesses will find consumers, and vice-versa.

So, you need trading partners of the modern, industrial and technological sort.  You speak their language and they speak your language...that eliminates the Trobian Islanders.  The field narrows.

You say you can always deal with the EU, but is that true?  Putting aside the bad feelings, trade agreements are not all the same arms-length transactions.  Indeed, a trade agreement is agreed to beforehand precisely because it gives economic advantages.  Let's say you sell widgets...the guy two stalls down also sells widgets, but he sells them for £2 less per item.  That is because he has entered into a trade agreement with the suppliers and you have not.  Everyone goes to his stall because they can get a better price, and you have lost your widget business.

Now, you have suddenly learned the world is waaaay more sophisticated than you imagined.  So, in addition to choosing synonymous markets, you've got to have agreements that give you the price advantage.  So, here are BoJo and Trump having a casual conversation.  Neither of them are particularly farsighted, nor even future-oriented, and both have delicate egos.  Both hold grudges.

BoJo insults Trump...he says: you stupid yanks are the cause of all the trouble in the world!!  Trump slams down the phone in act of anger and defiance, saying I don't ever want to talk to you!!  Trump fumes and contemplates revenge.

Meanwhile, the guy two stalls down is still selling widgets at a £2 discount over you.  He didn't let his anger get in the way.  He's smart!

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:22 pm



Waffle!



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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Waffle!

Waffle = You don't have an answer.  Twisted Evil

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:31 pm




Waffle = you're talking waffle!



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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:42 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Waffle = you're talking waffle!

Notice you haven't got an answer? Evil or Very Mad

Waffle = You haven't got an answer. Razz

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:09 pm



Waffle doesn't need answering...

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“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Waffle doesn't need answering...

No...nor does the person who uses it.  It's a placeholder for an otherwise answer, put out there to say, I'm opposing you, but I don't know why.  Let me help you over that hurdle.

The reason why you have no answer is because you are opposing truth, and/or otherwise have no substance behind your position.  The reason, then, why you oppose me is simply tribal politics.  You identify with a certain tribe (Tory), and habitually oppose anyone who does not belong to your tribe.

This is not an identity group.  This is a debate forum.  Debate is a form of exchange, with ideas going back and forth, winnowing the differences down to nil.  So essentially, "waffle" is a way to avoid the harsh consequences of having no valid idea to offer.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

Original Quill

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:36 pm




More waffle!



_________________
“Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.” — Isaac Newton

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:57 pm

Again...

We'll wait until someone has something to say.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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