Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

by Didgee Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:02 am

Iresisted for a long time applying the fascist label to Donald J. Trump. He did indeed display some telltale signs. In 2016, a newsreel clip of Trump's plane taxiing up to a hangar where cheering supporters awaited reminded me eerily of Adolf Hitler's electoral campaign in Germany in July 1932, the first airborne campaign in history, where the arrival of the Führer's plane electrified the crowd. Once the rally began, with Hitler and Mussolini, Trump mastered the art of back-and-forth exchanges with his enraptured listeners. There was the threat of physical violence ("lock her up!"), sometimes leading to the forceful ejection of hecklers. The Proud Boys stood in convincingly for Hitler's Storm Troopers and Mussolini's squadristi. The MAGA hats even provided a bit of uniform.The "America First" message and the leader's arrogant swagger fit the fascist model.

But these are matters of surface decor. How did Trump relate to more profound social, political, economic, and cultural forces in American life? Like Hitler, among the first political leaders to master radio, Trump mastered electronic media like Twitter and won the support of America's largest television chain, Fox News. Like the fascist leaders Trump understood the deep disaffection of parts of society for traditional leaders and institutions, and he knew how to exploit a widespread fear of national division and decline. Like Hitler and Mussolini he knew how to pose as the only effective bulwark against an advancing Left, all the more fearful because it took on cultural forms unfamiliar to provincial rural America—feminism, Black Power, gay rights.

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-paxton-trump-fascist-1560652

2) Why Trump isn’t a fascist:

The storming of the Capitol on 6 January was not a coup. But American democracy is still in danger.

Anumber of prominent commentators, including the historians Timothy Snyder and Sarah Churchwell, the former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright and the Berkeley public policy professor Robert Reich have been arguing for some time that Donald Trump is a fascist. The writer Rebecca Solnit has even called Trump’s supporters “Nazis”.

Look at his contempt for democracy, they say; his attacks on the press and the judiciary, his rabble-rousing, his intolerance of all who oppose him, his authoritarianism, his self-identification with foreign dictators and strongmen, his nationalism and “America first” foreign policy. Look at the way he spurns international organisations, treaties and agreements, his racism and encouragement of white supremacist groups, his incitement to violence on the streets of the US.

Certainly, these carry strong echoes of fascism. Hitler and Mussolini attacked the free press, poured scorn on the judiciary, urged their followers to attack and kill their opponents, and put a murderous racism at the heart of their ideology. They tore up treaties, abandoned international organisations, undermined and ultimately destroyed parliamentary democracy, and promoted a cult of their own personality that seduced millions of citizens into accepting them as great redeemers.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2021/01/why-trump-isnt-fascist

Thoughts on each article?

You get some interesting perspectives on this by historians

https://twitter.com/RichardEvans36/status/1349426563952082946

https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1349421474466164742

This also has another article

https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/1349408070137475073

by Tommy Monk Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:19 am

The 2nd bit you've posted under the sub heading 'why Trump isn't a fascist' sounds like it's just arguing that Trump is a fascist...

by Eilzel Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:47 am

I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

by Didgee Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:54 pm

Eilzel wrote:I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

Agree withmany of your points

Just found it interesting how academics have looked at the events

One think is clear Trump will go down as the worst US President so far in history

by Maddog Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:15 pm

Eilzel wrote:I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

I despise labels like those. They are a lazy way of making a point. Trump is an authoritarian in the vein of Pinochet.

But having some exasperated millennial proclaim that Trump "is literally Pinochet" doesn't have the same effect.

The typical woke warrior doesn't know who that is.

by Didgee Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:49 pm

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

I despise labels like those. They are a lazy way of making a point. Trump is an authoritarian in the vein of Pinochet.

But having some exasperated millennial proclaim that Trump "is literally Pinochet" doesn't have the same effect.

The typical woke warrior doesn't know who that is.

I found historian Tom Holland's reply very interesting

"There is also a case for arguing - for the reasons I set out here - that ancient Rome offers a much more suggestive historical parallel to contemporary America than does Nazi Germany. It was, after all, the Capitol that got attacked..."

by Original Quill Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:29 pm

Maddog wrote:I despise labels like those.

Haha...he despises labels, unless they are his own: "exasperated millennial". Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion 3489511464

Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion 3489511464

You can't avoid labels unless you are going to forego generalizations altogether. Labels are simply identification tags given to generalities.

I prefer labels that are as near (in abstractness) to the subject as possible. That Donald Trump is a fascist is certainly true, but it doesn't pinpoint the precise place of Trump within fascism.

Trump is a white supremacist, drawing on the zeitgeist of white supremacy of the American south. True, Trump is not a southerner, but since the embracing of the southern strategy of the south by the RW Republicans, the racist Queens/Brooklynite in him has found a home.

In the January 6th insurrectionists, you find the ideology of southerners of the civil war. It's our country! We can do what we want! Make America Racist Again! And most of all: if we can't have it, we'll take it! The insurrectionists even had the stars & bars of the slavery flag on display.

Every sin of Trump has been of the racist nature. What are his great programs? No Muslims in our country! No FEMA for Puerto Ricans! Crimes against Mexicans and Central/South Americans, including murder, rape and family-splitting (661 children now don't know their parents). Slap-downs of blacks following the murder of George Floyd...even sending his storm troopers to Portland to show his hatred of blacks. All his crimes have the tinge of white supremacy.

Of course, his real crime has yet to come to light: he is a Russian mole in the highest reaches of the US government. He has been compromised through accepting vast sums of money through the Moscow branch of Deutsche Bank, and he must kowtow to Russian oligarchs. Harding, Luke, Collusion : Secret Meetings, Dirty Money, and How Russia Helped Donald Trump Win (2017). But that's not political dogma. That's just RW/capitalist greed.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:00 pm

Eilzel wrote:I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

The democrats created all the division with their behaviour since trump won the presidency back in 2016 (was it?)... They just couldn't accept it and have waged a hostile campaign against him ever since...

by Maddog Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:20 am

Didgee wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I despise labels like those. They are a lazy way of making a point. Trump is an authoritarian in the vein of Pinochet.

But having some exasperated millennial proclaim that Trump "is literally Pinochet" doesn't have the same effect.

The typical woke warrior doesn't know who that is.

I found historian Tom Holland's reply very interesting

"There is also a case for arguing - for the reasons I set out here - that ancient Rome offers a much more suggestive historical parallel to contemporary America than does Nazi Germany. It was, after all, the Capitol that got attacked..."

Yup. I make the comparison to Rome all of the time.

I'm sure the Roman's thought that every new emporer was going to right the ship.

And maybe they could have if the people.really knew what kind of shape they were in.

by Eilzel Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:17 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Eilzel wrote:I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

The democrats created all the division with their behaviour since trump won the presidency back in 2016 (was it?)... They just couldn't accept it and have waged a hostile campaign against him ever since...

If you believe that, you're delusional. The man made a point of targeting groups of people he opposed in every speech. You didn't see that from previous presidents, even Bush.

by Tommy Monk Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:54 pm

He was responding to the hostile attacks from those groups.

by Maddog Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:42 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

The democrats created all the division with their behaviour since trump won the presidency back in 2016 (was it?)... They just couldn't accept it and have waged a hostile campaign against him ever since...

If you believe that, you're delusional. The man made a point of targeting groups of people he opposed in every speech. You didn't see that from previous presidents, even Bush.

Both sides were very adversarial and extremely hostile to each other. They had no intention of playing nice.

We could fill a thread about shitty things they said about each other.

by Original Quill Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:18 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Eilzel wrote:I don’t focus too much on the labels slung at him or other leaders (Bernie is a communist, Biden is socialist, Trump is fascist etc...).

Is Trump a bad president? Yes.
Has he created more division and mistrust in politics and media than any other president? Yes.
Did he help incite a violent mob to storm the Capitol? Yes.
Is that impeachable and deserving of removing him from office? Yes.

Whether or not he is a ‘fascist’ is subject to debate, but not important to how his actions should be responded to.

The democrats created all the division with their behaviour since trump won the presidency back in 2016 (was it?)... They just couldn't accept it and have waged a hostile campaign against him ever since...

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Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

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Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion

Re: Two articles: 1) I've Hesitated to Call Donald Trump a Fascist. Until Now | Opinion