A Maomentum poll does not go quite the way they hoped

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Surely the question should read: "Should the whip be withdrawn from Boris Johnson after his burka comments?" and not the other way round?

(Ps. I have to spend part of the day in re-hab - cardiac, not alcoholic, I hasten to add - and I'm feeling picky as well as grumpy.)

Syl wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Surely the question should read: "Should the whip be withdrawn from Boris Johnson after his burka comments?" and not the other way round?

(Ps. I have to spend part of the day in re-hab - cardiac, not alcoholic, I hasten to add - and I'm feeling picky as well as grumpy.)

Lol Fred...I feel your pain.
I have a dreaded afternoon planned, thats manifesting itself in me being picky and grumpy too.

Angry Andy wrote:That is a fake Twitter account.

It was set up by Guido Fawkes.

Check out @GuidoFawkes’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1029624454656212992?s=09

Angry Andy wrote:I expected you to believe everything you read on Twitter. Just as you believe everything Trump says.
I see your speech impediment hasn't improved with therapy. Hare lip or genetic defect?

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Angry Andy wrote:I expected you to believe everything you read on Twitter. Just as you believe everything Trump says.
I see your speech impediment hasn't improved with therapy. Hare lip or genetic defect?

andwew it is maomentums very own twitter account.
You will become a non person for dissing it you know just as Partick Stewart is now public enemy number 1 to all the cult members for saying enough is enough with labour.

Are you making fun of disabilities now. We'll just add that to the causal anti semitism and occasional islamaphobia of yours then.

Ben Mothafuckin' Reilly wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
andwew it is maomentums very own twitter account.
You will become a non person for dissing it you know just as Partick Stewart is now public enemy number 1 to all the cult members for saying enough is enough with labour.

Are you making fun of disabilities now. We'll just add that to the causal anti semitism and occasional islamaphobia of yours then.

Who’s Partick Stewart, does he do any causal antisemitism?

Didge wrote:What matters here is the reality, many people are very critical of the Burka and agree with Boris here.

What this means is we have people sick of PC

That somehow a politician, who in fact was agaisnt the ban, rightly called out the outfit as ridiculous and oppressive

He has every right to do this and no religion should be excempt from ridicule

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Didge wrote:What matters here is the reality, many people are very critical of the Burka and agree with Boris here.

What this means is we have people sick of PC

That somehow a politician, who in fact was agaisnt the ban, rightly called out the outfit as ridiculous and oppressive

He has every right to do this and no religion should be excempt from ridicule

it is not racist to call a garment anything.

Ben Mothafuckin' Reilly wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
andwew it is maomentums very own twitter account.
You will become a non person for dissing it you know just as Partick Stewart is now public enemy number 1 to all the cult members for saying enough is enough with labour.

Are you making fun of disabilities now. We'll just add that to the causal anti semitism and occasional islamaphobia of yours then.

Who’s Partick Stewart, does he do any causal antisemitism?

Ben Mothafuckin' Reilly wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
andwew it is maomentums very own twitter account.
You will become a non person for dissing it you know just as Partick Stewart is now public enemy number 1 to all the cult members for saying enough is enough with labour.

Are you making fun of disabilities now. We'll just add that to the causal anti semitism and occasional islamaphobia of yours then.

Who’s Partick Stewart, does he do any causal antisemitism?

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Didge wrote:What matters here is the reality, many people are very critical of the Burka and agree with Boris here.

What this means is we have people sick of PC

That somehow a politician, who in fact was agaisnt the ban, rightly called out the outfit as ridiculous and oppressive

He has every right to do this and no religion should be excempt from ridicule

it is not racist to call a garment anything.

Syl wrote:So would you say a mini skirt or a low cut top makes a woman look like a slapper then?

It may not be racist to say women who wear the burka look like bank robbers and letterboxes, but it's incredibly rude and opens the door for like minded idiots to see these women as not individuals, but as some sort of weird entity.

Incidentally, abuse against burka clad women has apparently increased a lot since bungling Boris wrote said his piece. And I doubt anyone can be surprised.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-burqa-Muslim-women-veil-attacks-islamophobia-letterboxes-rise-a8488651.html

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:So would you say a mini skirt or a low cut top makes a woman look like a slapper then?

It may not be racist to say women who wear the burka look like bank robbers and letterboxes, but it's incredibly rude and opens the door for like minded idiots to see these women as not individuals, but as some sort of weird entity.

Incidentally, abuse against burka clad women has apparently increased a lot since bungling Boris wrote said his piece. And I doubt anyone can be surprised.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boris-johnson-burqa-Muslim-women-veil-attacks-islamophobia-letterboxes-rise-a8488651.html

Unfounded comparrison, yet again. When again many Islamists men and women view western women as slappers and whores for how they dress and yet I do not see you jumping up and down over this. Those who wear the Burka, call western women, whores and slags for how they dress. Yet even these idiots have a right to free speech, what you do is challenge thes poor beliefs

So where is this Burqa glad women, up in arms defending  western women being slagged off?

Its non-existant

Now nobody should face abuse, but is it down to his view on Burkas, that there has been an increase of claims to abuse?

Or have you decided this is the case?

I mean thousands of British white girls have been raped and cast as white slags, for being non-Muslims

I dont see British white men raping and abusing Burka glad women and calling them Asian whores, do you?

Where is your moral equivalency here?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4936754/Wives-men-jailed-rape-blame-victims-too.html

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:

Unfounded comparrison, yet again. When again many Islamists men and women view western women as slappers and whores for how they dress and yet I do not see you jumping up and down over this. Those who wear the Burka, call western women, whores and slags for how they dress. Yet even these idiots have a right to free speech, what you do is challenge thes poor beliefs

So where is this Burqa glad women, up in arms defending  western women being slagged off?

Its non-existant

Now nobody should face abuse, but is it down to his view on Burkas, that there has been an increase of claims to abuse?

Or have you decided this is the case?

I mean thousands of British white girls have been raped and cast as white slags, for being non-Muslims

I dont see British white men raping and abusing Burka glad women and calling them Asian whores, do you?

Where is your moral equivalency here?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4936754/Wives-men-jailed-rape-blame-victims-too.html

It isn't an unfounded allegation, it's exactly the same sort of thing, people who tar everyone with the same brush are not seeing those people as individuals, they come as a job lot...be that they look like letterboxes, bankrobbers or slappers.
I would defend a womans right to wear whatever she chooses, be it a burka or a skimpy dress....it's all about choice.

I have spoken out a lot on the Pakistani Muslim gangs....this is a different thread.

Vintage wrote:So is there any country that forces women to wear low cut tops and mini skirts in public by law or cultural/societal pressure? Because there certainly are countries that enforce women covering up in public and I wish to know how Muslim women in tolerant countries can justify choosing such attire knowing the circumstances of their fellow women in such countries and that Mohammed says there is no compulsion in religion (although that verse doesn't actually mean what it seems to mean when you look into it).

Vintage wrote:So is there any country that forces women to wear low cut tops and mini skirts in public by law or cultural/societal pressure? Because there certainly are countries that enforce women covering up in public and I wish to know how Muslim women in tolerant countries can justify choosing such attire knowing the circumstances of their fellow women in such countries and that Mohammed says there is no compulsion in religion (although that verse doesn't actually mean what it seems to mean when you look into it).

Syl wrote:

Vintage wrote:So is there any country that forces women to wear low cut tops and mini skirts in public by law or cultural/societal pressure? Because there certainly are countries that enforce women covering up in public and I wish to know how Muslim women in tolerant countries can justify choosing such attire knowing the circumstances of their fellow women in such countries and that Mohammed says there is no compulsion in religion (although that verse doesn't actually mean what it seems to mean when you look into it).

No country forces women to wear low cut tops, but then this country doesn't force women to wear the burka either, and thankfully we do still live in a free country.
Its a matter of choice, I dont see a problem if a woman wants to cover herself here, she can legally (so far) wear the burka for whatever reason she chooses to...and the definitive word is CHOICE.

Vintage wrote:The question is why has this garment become so prevalent when only a small number in a particular  area wore it previously?

Didge wrote:I am going to break this down very simple for you Syl

You rightly back the choise of what women should be able to wear

You ignore where here is not a choice on clothing but beliefs

You should always defend the right of women on what they want to wear

I back that

What you should also do, is condemn the Burka, as a form of oppression. When women are forced to wear. When you fail to. You then back the belief that has women corerced to where as a uniform should take precedent here over those forced to wear

When you should condemn this outfit

You can still defend the right of women to wear, whilst denouncing such an oppressive symbol of hate

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:I am going to break this down very simple for you Syl

You rightly back the choise of what women should be able to wear

You ignore where here is not a choice on clothing but beliefs

You should always defend the right of women on what they want to wear

I back that

What you should also do, is condemn the Burka, as a form of oppression. When women are forced to wear. When you fail to. You then back the belief that has women corerced to where as a uniform should take precedent here over those forced to wear

When you should condemn this outfit

You can still defend the right of women to wear, whilst denouncing such an oppressive symbol of hate

Thats would make sense.....if so many Muslim women didn't insist they were wearing the burka for their own reasons and through choice. Maybe some feel empowered and not oppressed, because they are wearing something THEY want to.

To dictate what a woman cannot wear is as bad as dictating what she can wear.

And we have been through this on at least two different threads lately, i am not trying to change your opinion....and as this stands now, you certainly wont change mine.

Vintage wrote:I'm sorry to be pedantic but Muslim women in many countries have not felt the need to wear the burkha until the rise of political Islam, I've said before they wore a colourful national costume, some did wear the hijab in that tight only your face showing, most didn't. Women in many Islamic countries wore anything from mini skirts to covering dresses or baggy trousers and tops, shalwa kameez, saris, others just adapted modern western clothes not to show too much flesh as many non Muslim women do, the most you'd find in covering was the North African cloak worn by men and women it came with a hood and was generally colourful, nearly every country that wore a national type clothing were colourful even in public, even in Afghanistan and for goodness sake Pakistan, women were also reasonably free to go to the market and shop. The Wahabbist type movement put a stop to all this and politicised women's dress and daily behaviour - what choice is that?

Vintage wrote:I'm sorry to be pedantic but Muslim women in many countries have not felt the need to wear the burkha until the rise of political Islam, I've said before they wore a colourful national costume, some did wear the hijab in that tight only your face showing, most didn't. Women in many Islamic countries wore anything from mini skirts to covering dresses or baggy trousers and tops, shalwa kameez, saris, others just adapted modern western clothes not to show too much flesh as many non Muslim women do, the most you'd find in covering was the North African cloak worn by men and women it came with a hood and was generally colourful, nearly every country that wore a national type clothing were colourful even in public, even in Afghanistan and for goodness sake Pakistan, women were also reasonably free to go to the market and shop. The Wahabbist type movement put a stop to all this and politicised women's dress and daily behaviour - what choice is that?

Syl wrote:

Vintage wrote:I'm sorry to be pedantic but Muslim women in many countries have not felt the need to wear the burkha until the rise of political Islam, I've said before they wore a colourful national costume, some did wear the hijab in that tight only your face showing, most didn't. Women in many Islamic countries wore anything from mini skirts to covering dresses or baggy trousers and tops, shalwa kameez, saris, others just adapted modern western clothes not to show too much flesh as many non Muslim women do, the most you'd find in covering was the North African cloak worn by men and women it came with a hood and was generally colourful, nearly every country that wore a national type clothing were colourful even in public, even in Afghanistan and for goodness sake Pakistan, women were also reasonably free to go to the market and shop. The Wahabbist type movement put a stop to all this and politicised women's dress and daily behaviour - what choice is that?

We are talking about Muslim women choosing the wear the Burka here in this country.
I dont believe the majority of women wear it because they are forced to, as has been pointed out it isn't a religious OR a cultural requirement for the women who speak out about why wear it, unless they are lying....it's their own choice to do so for whatever reason to choose to.

You may not like it, I think it's pretty ugly, unnecessary  and unpractical myself....but so what?
Whilst its still legal here, why should other people interfere in a womans choice of dress?

You are not being pedantic btw, you are as entitled to argue your points as everyone else is.

Vintage wrote:Surely you have to ask why this has come about in the last 30 years(?) when hardly anyone in Muslim countries wore them for religious reasons or cultural reasons by choice or not? Its hardly a fashion statement. Strange this has happened after the Iranian revolution and the emergence of the Taliban and such cults. The Muslim world was moving forward up until the 80's, at least people in the cities were, now they are flying backwards at an alarming rate, especially for the women who are verbally and physically abused by complete strangers and imprisoned for not being properly dressed. I'm shocked that other free Muslim women should choose to wear such a garment while this goes on, their own mothers and grandmothers didn't. If women were completely free to wear what they like when they like in every country, I'll have to accept some anti social women wearing this thing by choice, until then I will protest and hope there's a ban on it.

Syl wrote:

Vintage wrote:Surely you have to ask why this has come about in the last 30 years(?) when hardly anyone in Muslim countries wore them for religious reasons or cultural reasons by choice or not? Its hardly a fashion statement. Strange this has happened after the Iranian revolution and the emergence of the Taliban and such cults. The Muslim world was moving forward up until the 80's, at least people in the cities were, now they are flying backwards at an alarming rate, especially for the women who are verbally and physically abused by complete strangers and imprisoned for not being properly dressed. I'm shocked that other free Muslim women should choose to wear such a garment while this goes on, their own mothers and grandmothers didn't. If women were completely free to wear what they like when they like in every country, I'll have to accept some anti social women wearing this thing by choice, until then I will protest and hope there's a ban on it.

They may be antisocial, I dont personally know any burka wearing women, though there are quite a few in this area.
I have heard women who wear it say they feel protected in it, and though it's an extreme garment I can see that for some women who dont like to be ogled, or feel exposed or unsafe in western clothes, it's a way to feel empowered.

I wish we had some Muslim women on here (lovely Sexy Mama doesn't post here lately) they would be able to give a better insight of why the burka is being worn now in a modern country.

Didge wrote:

Syl wrote:

They may be antisocial, I dont personally know any burka wearing women, though there are quite a few in this area.
I have heard women who wear it say they feel protected in it, and though it's an extreme garment I can see that for some women who dont like to be ogled, or feel exposed or unsafe in western clothes, it's a way to feel empowered.

I wish we had some Muslim women on here (lovely Sexy Mama doesn't post here lately) they would be able to give a better insight of why the burka is being worn now in a modern country.

Ha ha ha

So you dont know a single Muslim that wears one and yet throughout have claimed that those who follow this belief choose to wear.

Seriously

I have debated this with sexy before and when I asked her whether Muslim women should unite ffor their sisters forced to wear the hijab and burka.. That they stop wearing until laws are changed. She was against this idea by me

What does that tell you about the problems of religious beliefs?

Syl wrote:

Didge wrote:


Ha ha ha

So you dont know a single Muslim that wears one and yet throughout have claimed that those who follow this belief choose to wear.

Seriously

I have debated this with sexy before and when I asked her whether Muslim women should unite ffor their sisters forced to wear the hijab and burka.. That they stop wearing until laws are changed. She was against this idea by me

What does that tell you about the problems of religious beliefs?

What's so funny Didge? There are quite a few women who wear the burka in this area, I have no intention of asking each one why. They go about their business in a quiet respectable way, if they dont bother anyone else why should anyone bother them?
I have heard/read quite a few women talk/write about why they wear it....I remember sexy mama saying she agreed with me tha tin her opinion women in this country usually wear face coverings by choice.

To be frank I would respect her opinion more than yours on this subject.

Vintage wrote:It doesn't keep them safe though, Egyptian women were asked about sexual harrassment when they go out and even those who wear it have reported they have been verbally and physically sexually harrassed, its something like 80 % of women, how the heck does this cloth protect them. How about teaching boys to respect everyone including women instead of imprisoning half of the population in a sheet. Its called eve teasing/baiting the men think its hilarious, except when its their wives, daughters and sisters then they get confined to the house because if anything too serious happens that's the family honour down the shute and we all know what happens then.  

Vintage wrote:Are women making an informed choice if their whole life has been indoctrination by family or societal pressure. I've been reading about the sub sects of Mormonism where men have absolute charge over women, only 15 men out of approx 4,000 people who are thought to belong are allowed to marry and have children, many boys from about 12 are ejected from the community to live in a world they've been taught is totally evil, some women decide to escape but most just go with what they've been taught, they all wear the same style dress and the same hairstyle, they all get married to one of the 15 once they reach 12 years old. One boy who was ejected said his father had 16 wives, at least the last he heard and he could boast 160 siblings when he left, are these girls making a concious choice when they stay and do as ordered or are they brainwashed?

Inside the World of Gulf State Slavery

“La, Baba,” a young woman, pleads in Arabic, as she stands in a tidy kitchen trying to escape the attention of her cajoling Saudi boss, seconds before he gropes and sexually molests her. “No, father. It is nothing.”

The heart-breaking scene, filmed secretly as part of a grainy half-minute clip, shot around the world this week after a courageous—and angry—wife apparently posted it to the Internet from Saudi Arabia, shocking viewers and inspiring a social media campaign, #SaudiWomanCatchesHusbandCheating. The case, which the government of Indonesia says it is investigating and trying to confirm, became even more outrageous when media accounts reported the wife faces jail time for allegedly “defaming her husband in line with the law on information technology crimes.”

But the clip of the Saudi man stalking and sexually harassing his family’s “maid servant” is more than just an Internet meme. It is emblematic of the de facto slave subculture that thrives in modern day Saudi Arabia, supported by fatwas from Saudi clerics from the country’s dogmatic Wahhabi and Salafi schools of Islam, which argue that the Quran gives owners—most usually men—rights over “those whom your right hand possess,” or, in Arabic, “mā malakat aymānukum“ (4:3, 4:24, 4:24, 16:71, 23:5-6, 24:33, 24:58, 33:50).

One verse reads: “And if you fear that you will not be fair to the orphans, then marry whomever you like from the women, two or three, or four but if you fear that you won’t be fair to them, then marry only one or the slaves that your right hands possess. That is the closest way to prevent injustice.” (Quran, Surat Al-Nisa, “The Women,” 4:3)

For sure, abuse of power is global and universal. But to progressive Muslim thinkers, the notion of power over “those whom your right hand possess” is the theological underpinning of a cultural mindset that sanctions acts of brutality, like the media reports this week of a Saudi employer in New Delhi raping two “maids” from Nepal and, then, an employer in Saudi Arabia cutting off the arm of a woman worker from India, after she filed a complaint of torture. The government of Saudi Arabia did not return a request for comment.

It is time for the Saudi establishment, to reject and condemn this regressive, inhumane and, importantly, illegal interpretation of Islam.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-the-world-of-gulf-state-slavery