Should Boris be booted?

by Syl Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:46 am

First topic message reminder :

Boris Johnson is being asked to at least apologise, at worst resign or be sacked over the piece he wrote in Mondays Daily Telegraph.
He likened Burka wearing women to resembling bank robbers and letter boxes.

Should May get rid of bungling Boris, or will this just enhance his popularity with his following?

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-peer-remove-whip-from-boris-over-burka-remarks-11464276

by Original Quill Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:55 am

Deano wrote:the jews have lived in the holy land for 3000 years at least. Jerusalem has been their capitol since it was first founded. We know the jews are sneaky building their temples under all those Muslim temples. , but they have lived in the region far longer than the concept of palestine has been around.

We know the background, Dean. But the people who built Israel were Europeans, not 3,000-year old Semites.

And European states, as a form of apologia, let them have a free rein, no matter that they were stealing land from Semites...thus carving out a new breed of victim.

I just think we'd have a whole lot more peace if the Europeans gave them Italy. Italy was part of the guilty side, and it's a nice plot of land surrounded by the Med.

by Syl Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:41 am

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:Boris Johnson is being asked to at least apologise, at worst resign or be sacked over the piece he wrote in Mondays Daily Telegraph.
He likened Burka wearing women to resembling bank robbers and letter boxes.

Should May get rid of bungling Boris, or will this just enhance his popularity with his following?

https://news.sky.com/story/tory-peer-remove-whip-from-boris-over-burka-remarks-11464276

Anyway, back to the OP

Diverting again from the topic.....do you know that Shania Twain song was said to be about lesbians....she was actually saying that Man....she feels like a woman, as in, I feel like a curry, or I feel like a day out.....meaning she feels like having a woman.

Just a little trivia to break up the off topic thread. Razz

by nicko Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:55 am

I feel like a Woman lots of times, but I don't make a song and dance over it !

by Syl Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:56 am

nicko wrote:I feel like a Woman lots of times, but I don't make a song and dance over it !

by The Devil, You Know Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:09 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Deano wrote:the jews have lived in the holy land for 3000 years at least. Jerusalem has been their capitol since it was first founded. We know the jews are sneaky building their temples under all those Muslim temples. , but they have lived in the region far longer than the concept of palestine has been around.

We know the background, Dean. But the people who built Israel were Europeans, not 3,000-year old Semites.

And European states, as a form of apologia, let them have a free rein, no matter that they were stealing land from Semites...thus carving out a new breed of victim.

I just think we'd have a whole lot more peace if the Europeans gave them Italy. Italy was part of the guilty side, and it's a nice plot of land surrounded by the Med.

they were jews, that is a heritage going back several thousand years. Jews lived there the entire time. the Palestinians referred to then were jews. Most of the "palestinians" of today are actually those booted out of jordan

by Original Quill Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:10 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

We know the background, Dean. But the people who built Israel were Europeans, not 3,000-year old Semites.

And European states, as a form of apologia, let them have a free rein, no matter that they were stealing land from Semites...thus carving out a new breed of victim.

I just think we'd have a whole lot more peace if the Europeans gave them Italy. Italy was part of the guilty side, and it's a nice plot of land surrounded by the Med.

they were jews, that is a heritage going back several thousand years. Jews lived there the entire time. the Palestinians referred to then were jews. Most of the "palestinians" of today are actually those booted out of jordan

They were Jews, but they weren't Semites. Jews, like Americans, come in all flavors. No question, they should be free to practice their faith. But stealing real estate is not on the agenda of freedom of religion.

As far as who the Palestinians are, you have to go a lot farther that "most of" to establish demographics. Got any statistics? I need proof. When you get into these vague terms like "most of" and "majority" you are trying to sneak in a generalization. You can't generalize from specifics. It's important, because most of these arguments--even those I see in print--go along the lines of such vague references.

by nicko Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:49 pm

Quill. There's none so blind as those who will not see !

by JulesV Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:22 pm

"Should Boris be booted?"

Nope. It's not in Theresa's interest to make a martyr out of her number one rival.

There are many similarities between him and trump who he is clearly emulating. But one MASSIVE difference is that Boris is extremely well educated and highly articulate while Trump is the total opposite. In fact Boris was one of the most articulate journalists in the UK.

So he has no excuse to be crass - it's not as if his vocabulary is limited. His crassness is quite deliberate. It's attention-seeking behaviour.

by Syl Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:29 pm

Jules wrote:"Should Boris be booted?"

Nope. It's not in Theresa's interest to make a martyr out of her number one rival.

There are many similarities between him and trump who he is clearly emulating. But one MASSIVE difference is that Boris is extremely well educated and highly articulate while Trump is the total opposite. In fact Boris was one of the most articulate journalists in the UK.

So he has no excuse to be crass - it's not as if his vocabulary is limited. His crassness is quite deliberate. It's attention-seeking behaviour.

Good comment Jules....it was the way he said it, well he didn't even say it, he sat and considered it before he put pen to paper and wrote it down in a column that he knows millions will read..

by JulesV Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:46 pm

Syl wrote:
Jules wrote:"Should Boris be booted?"

Nope. It's not in Theresa's interest to make a martyr out of her number one rival.

There are many similarities between him and trump who he is clearly emulating. But one MASSIVE difference is that Boris is extremely well educated and highly articulate while Trump is the total opposite. In fact Boris was one of the most articulate journalists in the UK.

So he has no excuse to be crass - it's not as if his vocabulary is limited. His crassness is quite deliberate. It's attention-seeking behaviour.

Good comment Jules....it was the way he said it, well he didn't even say it, he sat and considered it before he put pen to paper and wrote it down in a column that he knows millions will read..

Ya, along with the privilege of having a massive global platform to speak on, there should be certain degree of responsibility too.

You are speaking on a world stage, Boris, not having a cosy drunken chat with mates in your front room, watch your words.

by Original Quill Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:01 pm

nicko wrote:Quill. There's none so blind as those who will not see !

Are you referring to the mantra that Israel is full of victims? Or, the idea that others can be victims, too?

I think the former has run its course.

by nicko Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:36 pm

I am referring to you mate, you refuse to see the other persons views, thinking yourself being always in the right !

by Original Quill Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:55 pm

nicko wrote:I am referring to you mate, you refuse to see the other persons views, thinking yourself being always in the right !

Yeah, but you're not saying much. And, it's my views that are being rejected. I'm the one arguing against the hackneyed notion that Jews are always victims. It's my opinion that Israel is taking advantage of us.

As for right/wrong abstractly, when do you think of yourself being as wrong? And if you are wrong, why don't you change? Or, are you one of those who "refuse to see the other persons views?"

See what I mean? The person digging new soil is always moving contrary to "other persons views". That's how original ideas help the species to improve.

by Guest Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:00 pm

nicko wrote:I am referring to you mate, you refuse to see the other persons views, thinking yourself being always in the right !

There you go mate. Its now impossible for israeli's to be victims according to Quill. When we see victims on both sides of this conflict. Countless israeli Jews and even Jews outside Israel have been butchered to death. That is irrelevant to Quill

At no point have you denied that there is victims on the Palestinian side

What you rightly see, is that one side has never sought peace and has rejected peace and a nation now 5 times. As they care more about hating Jews, that providing a state for their people.

I mean can you imagine that mate

They rejected the 1937 two state solution proposed by the British, even though the British created an Arab state already in Jordan full of Palestian Arabs within the British mandate. For some reason this was not enough and they wanted to deny any inch of land, the actual ancestral land of the Jews to the Jews for self determination

They then rejected the Un proposal for a two state solution and throughout this time they had been butchering Jews since for decades.

Then whilst occupied by the Jordanians and Eygptians, they never called for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, only the within the recreated state of israel

They then later rejected more proposals of peace, which would have given then a nation state

I mean what is really going on here?

Well it seems obvious

The Jews have extended out a hand for peace many times and the Palestinian Arabs keep rejecting their own self determination and also having their own state recognised (they already have part autonomy). They place hating the Jews and wiping them out above having peace, and a state.

Shades and mentality of what the germans also wanted to do

What can i say

Some people have not learnt from history and want to help create the same crimes all over again. As they wont be happy until the Arabs wipe out the Jews

by Vintage Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:07 pm

The State of Israel has even offered their technological knowhow to help establish a working Palestinian State, with irrigation and agriculture and still Hamas bites the very successful hand that could help them.

by Guest Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:13 pm

Vintage wrote:The State of Israel has even offered their technological knowhow to help establish a working Palestinian State, with irrigation and agriculture and still Hamas bites the very successful hand that could help them.

+1

by Guest Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:15 pm

You See Eddie, this has now become more interesting than the original debate

So I suggest you split them, as the other has interest also

It happens on debates like this, how they can diverge and for the record

They is a very small minority of Ultra orthordox Jews in Israel that where the Burqa

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_burqa_sect

Of which i am highly critical of also

by Original Quill Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:18 pm

Vintage wrote:The State of Israel has even offered their technological knowhow to help establish a working Palestinian State, with irrigation and agriculture and still Hamas bites the very successful hand that could help them.

They have also killed Palestinian babies.

I think with these settlements, Israel is into lebensraum every bit as much as Germany in 1932. I think Netanyahu has admitted this. I believe she is using the resources of the US to prop up her military to accomplish this.

I oppose my tax money going to this effort.

by Guest Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:27 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Vintage wrote:The State of Israel has even offered their technological knowhow to help establish a working Palestinian State, with irrigation and agriculture and still Hamas bites the very successful hand that could help them.

They have also killed Palestinian babies.

I think with these settlements, Israel is into lebensraum every bit as much as Germany in 1932. I think Netanyahu has admitted this. I believe she is using the resources of the US to prop up her military to accomplish this.

I oppose my tax money going to this effort.

So moot point, if both sides have killed babies

What you are not saying ethically on this is about whether it was deliberate or a mistake

Hamas, intentionally and does kill babies with suicide bombers, indiscriminate rocket attacks, stabbing Jewish babies to death, rock throwing at cars which has killed babies also, shooting and blowing up babies with bombs

The IDF however, warn the people of gaza through a combination of methods unprecidented in warfare. Where they drop leaflets, ring and text people in advance of an impending attack on an area that is housing weapons targeted on Israel. With the latest rocket tap technic also as a last measure to warn people. This they all do to help prevent the loss of civillian life

Does that sound like an unethical army to you, looking to butcher babies?

Or is it that Hamas is known to place weapons targeted on israel in schools, hospitals etc?
That they use Gazan people as human shields.
That they build tunnels to attack israel, but not a single bomb shelter for the protection of civillians. They use aid money to not rebuild gaze but as a means to attack Israel
That they even either force them or brainwash them to remain to be martyrs in buildings when the IDF sends warning of an attack

Moral equivalency?

You have not got a clue

Israel hates any loss of Palestinian civillian life, its why they could and do not indiscriminately not wipe out gaza, and they easily could.

Mistakes happen in wars, as they always have, when people are looking to protect their own civillians

Your baby argument is a insult to every Palestinian baby that has died, as they all could have been prevented. Where those babies have had hamas place weapons and fire them where they are living. Israel has a right under international law to proect its citizens. Even the Geneva convention allows Hospitals to be targetd, if after being warned to remove civillians, when they harbour armed forces

They would all be alive today, if the the palestinian authority had chosen to live alongside the Jews in peace respecting each others selff determination

None of these babies would have died on each side, if they simple stoped hating the Jews and sought actual peace.
Your argument is like backing the Nazi's grievance on Polish independence and self determination.In that the nazi's would not accept it. The Arabs have had countless chances to have peace and rejected it every time. Just as Hitler dismissed any chance of peace with his enemies.

You insult every single casualty of this conflict with such ridiculously unethical and pathetic arguments

by Vintage Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:33 pm

So the Palestinians haven't killed babies and children? (including their own)
Let's compare Israel's development for its people (and Palestinians when required) - with or without help, agriculture, health shelters for their population when Palestinian rockets are launched into the country, deliberately targetting civilians.
Hamas, uses hospitals as launch pads for rockets, buys guns ammo and rocket launchers rather then develop the lands they have for the good of their people who could have it as good as Israel if they tried and took the help offered, its not the Israelis spending vast amounts of money to tunnel into Israeli lands to kill civilians - yes civilians again, their hate is all consuming, and its consuming their own children.

by Original Quill Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:35 pm

dd wrote:What you are not saying ethically on this is about whether it was deliberate or a mistake

I believe Netanyahu has admitted it is intentional on Israel's part.

The US used to be the greatest supporter of Israel. But a fresh look at this is now gaining momentum.

by Guest Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:41 pm

Original Quill wrote:
dd wrote:What you are not saying ethically on this is about whether it was deliberate or a mistake

I believe Netanyahu has admitted it is intentional on Israel's part.

The US used to be the greatest supporter of Israel. But a fresh look at this is now gaining momentum.

He is one man, who I disagree with majorly and it seems he will be prosecuted for fraud

The US is still a great supporter of israel, not that has anything to do with anything here

Israel survived when surrounded on all sides and invaded when it decalred independence.

This is what you fail to grasp about the israeli jews. A number were survivors of the Holocaust. A number were ethnically cleansed from Arab lands. The radical islamists have a view not to fear death through martydom, but it pails into comparrison of a view, where Jews have faced the reality of their own extinction

Hence they will fight to the very last to defend the very right to self determination

What you fail to grasp and excuse pathetically everytime, is why have not the Arabs in Palestine sought actual peace with israel?

The Jordanians have

Eygpt has also

The Palestinians continue to refuse to do so and by doing so, place hate on Jews over helping their own people

Its like i say, such a view would be like backing Germany feeling agrieved at the loss of lands with the formation of Poland. To the tune, that they and the Soviet Union invade to carve it up

I dont here you championing that cause they had on this to wipe out the Polish state at the time

Why is that?

by Guest Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:43 pm

Vintage wrote:So the Palestinians haven't killed babies and children? (including their own)
Let's compare Israel's development for its people (and Palestinians when required) - with or without help, agriculture, health shelters for their population when Palestinian rockets are launched into the country, deliberately targetting civilians.
Hamas, uses hospitals as launch pads for rockets, buys guns ammo and rocket launchers rather then develop the lands they have for the good of their people who could have it as good as Israel if they tried and took the help offered, its not the Israelis spending vast amounts of money to tunnel into Israeli lands to kill civilians - yes civilians again, their hate is all consuming, and its consuming their own children.

+1

by eddie Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:56 am

by Guest Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:13 am

I see Eddie evaded all the points again

Why is it that Non-Salafist Muslims choose not to wear the Burqa?

by Guest Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:56 am

Should Boris be booted? - Page 7 Screenshot-2018-08-15-02.09.05

Momentum, like most of SW1, seems to have severely underestimated Boris and have engaged in a stunt that has only served to highlight his popularity. Taking notes from Brandon Lewis?

After well over 17,000 votes, 80% of respondents say the whip shouldn’t be withdrawn from Boris.

You can still vote in the twitter poll here…

https://order-order.com/2018/08/15/momentum-twitter-poll-backfires/

Its actually 82% "no" now.

by The Devil, You Know Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:11 am

Didge wrote:

Momentum, like most of SW1, seems to have severely underestimated Boris and have engaged in a stunt that has only served to highlight his popularity. Taking notes from Brandon Lewis?

After well over 17,000 votes, 80% of respondents say the whip shouldn’t be withdrawn from Boris.

You can still vote in the twitter poll here…

https://order-order.com/2018/08/15/momentum-twitter-poll-backfires/

Its actually 82% "no" now.

last time I saw that poll there had been over 35000 votes and it was 82% in favour of boris

by The Devil, You Know Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:13 am

Vintage wrote:The State of Israel has even offered their technological knowhow to help establish a working Palestinian State, with irrigation and agriculture and still Hamas bites the very successful hand that could help them.

those evil blood sucking jews are such terrible people that they have helped more wounded from the syrian conflict than any other nation.

by The Devil, You Know Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:15 am

Original Quill wrote:
The Devil, You Know wrote:

they were jews, that is a heritage going back several thousand years. Jews lived there the entire time. the Palestinians referred to then were jews. Most of the "palestinians" of today are actually those booted out of jordan

They were Jews, but they weren't Semites. Jews, like Americans, come in all flavors. No question, they should be free to practice their faith. But stealing real estate is not on the agenda of freedom of religion.

As far as who the Palestinians are, you have to go a lot farther that "most of" to establish demographics. Got any statistics? I need proof. When you get into these vague terms like "most of" and "majority" you are trying to sneak in a generalization. You can't generalize from specifics. It's important, because most of these arguments--even those I see in print--go along the lines of such vague references.

so what is the timescale for theft that is acceptable to you. 10 years, 100years, 1000 years? the jews have lived int eh region for 3000 years, jerusalem was their capitol millenia ago

by The Devil, You Know Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:17 am

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:Quill. There's none so blind as those who will not see !

Are you referring to the mantra that Israel is full of victims? Or, the idea that others can be victims, too?

I think the former has run its course.

you are quick to condemn israel for self defence but have you ever condemned the palestinians for the war crimes they commit on a daily basis by firing unguided rockets at civilians. Just because israel spends money on an airdefence to protect their citizens and stops most of them does not stop it being a crime.

Israel uses weapons to defend its people, the palestinians use people to defend its weapons

by Original Quill Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:54 pm

nicko wrote:I am referring to you mate, you refuse to see the other persons views, thinking yourself being always in the right !

The topic isn't about me, nicko. Have you anything relevant so add?

by Original Quill Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:22 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

They were Jews, but they weren't Semites. Jews, like Americans, come in all flavors. No question, they should be free to practice their faith. But stealing real estate is not on the agenda of freedom of religion.

As far as who the Palestinians are, you have to go a lot farther that "most of" to establish demographics. Got any statistics? I need proof. When you get into these vague terms like "most of" and "majority" you are trying to sneak in a generalization. You can't generalize from specifics. It's important, because most of these arguments--even those I see in print--go along the lines of such vague references.

so what is the timescale for theft that is acceptable to you. 10 years, 100years, 1000 years? the jews have lived int eh region for 3000 years, jerusalem was their capitol millenia ago

A good place to start would have be the point at which civilized people started recognizing boundaries in this century. It's about humanism, not legalistic minutia. Today--as opposed to yesteryear--people have a right to enjoy and be secure in their homes.

Israel was but a Jonestown-type cult until Europeans gave them the go-ahead to build a nation, post-WWII. I stick by my premise in this discussion: Europe would have been justified, and far less threatened, if they had given the Jews Italy. It's on the Med, it's an attractive climate, and there is a retributive justification. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-retributive/

Those who think it's a quirky idea, ought to remember that the chosen alternative is war with 1.6 billion people.

by Original Quill Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:34 pm

The Devil, You Know wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Are you referring to the mantra that Israel is full of victims? Or, the idea that others can be victims, too?

I think the former has run its course.
you are quick to condemn israel for self defence but have you ever condemned the palestinians for the war crimes they commit on a daily basis by firing unguided rockets at civilians. Just because israel spends money on an airdefence to protect their citizens and stops most of them does not stop it being a crime.

Israel uses weapons to defend its people, the palestinians use people to defend its weapons

I don't condemn Israel for self-defense. That's your casting of events.

Israel in this decade has drifted from self-defense, to an aggressive Lebensraum. It's a transition in history with which we are all too familiar, where the victim looses sight of it's justification, and becomes villain.

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