Five teenagers who "tortured" a 15-year-old boy to death have been sentenced to life in prison.

by Tommy Monk Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:36 pm

Kai Fisher-Dixon, Shuayb Mahomud, Tremayne Gray, Omarion Stephens and Abdulqaliq Mohamed attacked Jacob Abraham in Waltham Cross in December.

The boys, all aged 15 and from Enfield, north London, denied murder but were found guilty by a jury after a five-week trial at St Albans Crown Court.

Five teenagers who "tortured" a 15-year-old boy to death have been sentenced to life in prison. _102727627_abrahamkillers

Five teenagers who "tortured" a 15-year-old boy to death have been sentenced to life in prison. _102727627_abrahamkillers

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44987281

The judge said: "The purpose was to punish him [Jacob] by the deliberate infliction of serious pain and humiliation, but to leave him alive.

"That was what I meant when I used the word torture in the course of the hearing and I do not shrink from it."

WTF!!!???

'...he was stabbed eight times in an alleyway behind his home...'

Stabbed EIGHT times... but the judge thinks that there was no intent to kill him...!!!???

by Original Quill Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:37 pm

Well, if he sentenced the kids to life, it all equals out. That's the maximum in UK, isn't it?

by magica Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:42 pm

Here Quill, life is about ten years. Paltry sentence for what they did.

If they got life at Her Majestys Pleasure, that gives no date, so could be in prison many years.

by Original Quill Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:13 am

Ok, what would be a greater sentence, and could the court have imposed that given their age?

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:32 am

What they did was obviously despicable and they deserve to be punished.
The lads are all 15, not fully developed, so there is every chance, given the right kind of help they can turn into responsible human beings.

Maybe they will develop at different rates, but surely, after a few years, they should be assessed, and given a second chance if they have proven to be rehabilitated.

by Original Quill Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:40 am

Syl wrote:What they did was obviously despicable and they deserve to be punished.
The lads are all 15, not fully developed, so there is every chance, given the right kind of help they can turn into responsible human beings.

Maybe they will develop at different rates, but surely, after a few years, they should be assessed, and given a second chance if they have proven to be rehabilitated.

I sorta agree. I know how gangs operate, and one of them was most likely the actor, and the rest were just hanging around...maybe cheer leading, but not actual killers.

If I'm right, the judge should have found the 'bad seed', and given him the heavy sentence, giving the others a little chance to rehabilitate themselves.

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:04 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:What they did was obviously despicable and they deserve to be punished.
The lads are all 15, not fully developed, so there is every chance, given the right kind of help they can turn into responsible human beings.

Maybe they will develop at different rates, but surely, after a few years, they should be assessed, and given a second chance if they have proven to be rehabilitated.

I sorta agree. I know how gangs operate, and one of them was most likely the actor, and the rest were just hanging around...maybe cheer leading, but not actual killers.

If I'm right, the judge should have found the 'bad seed', and given him the heavy sentence, giving the others a little chance to rehabilitate themselves.

The black gang culture is getting worse in the UK.

I know you cant watch teenagers all the time, but its sad that kids so young are marauding about carrying knives and dealing in drugs.
Where are the parents....they have to take some of the responsibility to how their 15 year old sons are acting.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:10 am

...while the dead victim doesn't get any second chance at life...!

These 5 shouldn't get any second chances either...!

Should each do lengthy prison sentence, solitary cell and bread & water style... then hung...!

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:24 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

...while the dead victim doesn't get any second chance at life...!

These 5 shouldn't get any second chances either...!

Should each do lengthy prison sentence, solitary cell and bread & water style... then hung...!

No the victim will never get a second chance, tragic though that is it's too late for him.
These lads are just kids though, you seriously cant be suggesting we hang children the UK.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:57 pm

After they have done 10-15 years each... then they are adults...

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:After they have done 10-15 years each... then they are adults...

So you would be happy to hang the adult for the crime he committed when he was a child?

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:05 pm

They are all above the age of criminal responsibility...

And it is clear by the crime epidemic that soft prisons and soft sentencing is not working...

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:They are all above the age of criminal responsibility...

And it is clear by the crime epidemic that soft prisons and soft sentencing is not working...

I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished Tommy, obviously they should, and they should remain inside till they have served their sentences, and even then if they are not deemed safe they should stay there.
But to hang a man because of the act he committed when he was a child, and 15 year olds are still kids, would be barbaric.

by magica Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:13 pm

Syl wrote:What they did was obviously despicable and they deserve to be punished.
The lads are all 15, not fully developed, so there is every chance, given the right kind of help they can turn into responsible human beings.

Maybe they will develop at different rates, but surely, after a few years, they should be assessed, and given a second chance if they have proven to be rehabilitated.

They might Syl, but the poor boy they butchered won't have that chance.

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:31 pm

magica wrote:
Syl wrote:What they did was obviously despicable and they deserve to be punished.
The lads are all 15, not fully developed, so there is every chance, given the right kind of help they can turn into responsible human beings.

Maybe they will develop at different rates, but surely, after a few years, they should be assessed, and given a second chance if they have proven to be rehabilitated.

They might Syl, but the poor boy they butchered won't have that chance.

And you could say that about anyone who has been murdered Mags, but the vast majority of murderers walk free eventually.
Like I say, these are kids....they deserve a second chance in the future if they serve their sentences and learn by their mistakes.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:22 pm

Murderers should not get any second chances...

by Original Quill Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:32 pm

Syl wrote:The black gang culture is getting worse in the UK.

You could say that about any culture, but it's a different argument...one requiring quantitative proof. This is about one incident. You can generalize from specifics.

Tommy Monk wrote:And it is clear by the crime epidemic that soft prisons and soft sentencing is not working...

"Crime epidemic"?? See Syl, what you start when you drift off into unsubstantiated generalizations? With absolutely no evidence, the crowd condemns a whole race.

I'm not saying that an argument could not be made. I'm just saying this piece, about one incident, is not that argument. It's an entirely different subject.

What tommy is actually motivated by is the racism in his own heart. You've just tickled his funny bone about it. Lol.

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:26 pm

There is a violent crime epidemic going on here in UK!

I have posted plenty about it on other threads!

by Original Quill Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:There is a violent crime epidemic going on here in UK!

I have posted plenty about it on other threads!

If you want to make that case, go ahead. This item is not that case.

That case is a generalization, and requires a quantitative argument, with appropriate controls. "Posting plenty..." is not a quantitative argument.

by nicko Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Do you live her Quill, no, so butt out !

by Original Quill Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:51 pm

nicko wrote:Do you live her Quill, no, so butt out !

Um...nicko, this is an American site. You are the guest. But of course you are always welcome, so I won't tell you to "butt out". American sites are known for free speech and proper debate.

Again, my point to tommy is to make a proper argument. If he wants to generalize, he certainly can. He must present a quantitative argument.

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:09 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:The black gang culture is getting worse in the UK.

You could say that about any culture, but it's a different argument...one requiring quantitative proof. This is about one incident. You can generalize from specifics.

Tommy Monk wrote:And it is clear by the crime epidemic that soft prisons and soft sentencing is not working...

"Crime epidemic"?? See Syl, what you start when you drift off into unsubstantiated generalizations? With absolutely no evidence, the crowd condemns a whole race.

I'm not saying that an argument could not be made. I'm just saying this piece, about one incident, is not that argument. It's an entirely different subject.

What tommy is actually motivated by is the racism in his own heart. You've just tickled his funny bone about it. Lol.

You could say that about any culture but you may not be right.

Black gang culture is certainly getting worse in the UK, especially in the London region. Knife crime has soared over the last few years, most of the stabbings are black on black....look at the statistics for this year alone.

You have to deal in facts, else you will be in denial re the people involved.....just as Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs were left to grow and multiply, not facing the truth will see more and more black kids left to die on the streets.

by Original Quill Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:40 pm

Syl wrote:You could say that about any culture but you may not be right.

Right or wrong...how will we know until someone makes the argument and backs it up with a statistical argument.

The blacks in London that I know are exemplary people. Highly intelligent and a delight to socialize with.

by Syl Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:57 pm

I'm sure many of the black people you know in London are delightful, maybe you dont mix with the kids who run in gangs.

Read the links about knife crime so far this year in London alone.
The majority of the victims have been black.
Almost everytime we read of another black person being attacked or killed gangs are mentioned.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/21/knife-deaths-among-black-people-should-cause-more-outrage

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290047/Metropolitan-Police-crime-statistics-reveal-violent-criminals-black--victims.html

by Tommy Monk Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:51 pm

Lefties don't seem to care about black youths stabbing and killing each other all over the place... they would rather pretend it isn't happening and shout 'racist' at those who do speak about it... thus adding to & perpetuating the problem...!

by 'Wolfie Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:53 am

Those like Tommy, Sly and nicko would apparently prefer the right to have anyone they don't like exterminated...

Never mind the law, courts or juries..

Just give them their own "Kangaroo Court" where the lowest common denominator can carry out their mob vengeance on any designated scapegoat, guilty or not.

by nicko Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:42 am

Wolfie, you do seem to put words in peoples mouths, show me where i'v advocated extermination you silly little man !

by 'Wolfie Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:41 am

Five teenagers who "tortured" a 15-year-old boy to death have been sentenced to life in prison. 1858517897

Five teenagers who "tortured" a 15-year-old boy to death have been sentenced to life in prison. 2347854014

Five teenagers who "tortured" a 15-year-old boy to death have been sentenced to life in prison. 3068147984

by Syl Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:35 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Those like Tommy, Sly and nicko would apparently prefer the right to have anyone they don't like exterminated...

Never mind the law, courts or juries..

Just give them their own "Kangaroo Court" where the lowest common denominator can carry out their mob vengeance on any designated scapegoat, guilty or not.

My points have been for the direct opposite....fool.
I swear you never actually read anyone's posts, you just follow the same old mantra in your head. Rolling Eyes

by magica Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:34 pm

Syl wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Those like Tommy, Sly and nicko would apparently prefer the right to have anyone they don't like exterminated...

Never mind the law, courts or juries..

Just give them their own "Kangaroo Court" where the lowest common denominator can carry out their mob vengeance on any designated scapegoat, guilty or not.

My points have been for the direct opposite....fool.
I swear you never actually read anyone's posts, you just follow the same old mantra in your head.

He must be confused Syl, gets you're name wrong aswell. Suspect

by Raggamuffin Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:What they did was obviously despicable and they deserve to be punished.
The lads are all 15, not fully developed, so there is every chance, given the right kind of help they can turn into responsible human beings.

Maybe they will develop at different rates, but surely, after a few years, they should be assessed, and given a second chance if they have proven to be rehabilitated.

I sorta agree. I know how gangs operate, and one of them was most likely the actor, and the rest were just hanging around...maybe cheer leading, but not actual killers.

If I'm right, the judge should have found the 'bad seed', and given him the heavy sentence, giving the others a little chance to rehabilitate themselves.

It's a good job the judge didn't do that - if he couldn't decide who was most responsible, they could all have walked.

They were all in it together, and I don't think that any of them were "hanging around" or cheerleading. Even if they were, they're just as guilty.

by Raggamuffin Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:16 pm

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:Do you live her Quill, no, so butt out !

Um...nicko, this is an American site. You are the guest. But of course you are always welcome, so I won't tell you to "butt out". American sites are known for free speech and proper debate.

Again, my point to tommy is to make a proper argument. If he wants to generalize, he certainly can. He must present a quantitative argument.

It's not American - the person who runs it is, and he could be in the UK soon, so you butt out. You don't have priority just because you're American.

by eddie Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:26 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Those like Tommy, Sly and nicko would apparently prefer the right to have anyone they don't like exterminated...

Never mind the law, courts or juries..

Just give them their own "Kangaroo Court" where the lowest common denominator can carry out their mob vengeance on any designated scapegoat, guilty or not.

Neither Nicko or Syl said they wanted these boys exterminated.
Perhaps you could admit you’re wrong and apologise for tarring everyone with the same brush?

I made this large so you could see it, in case it was poor eyesight that made you think you read something you didn’t.

Hope it helps!

by eddie Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:Do you live her Quill, no, so butt out !

Um...nicko, this is an American site. You are the guest. But of course you are always welcome, so I won't tell you to "butt out". American sites are known for free speech and proper debate.

Again, my point to tommy is to make a proper argument. If he wants to generalize, he certainly can. He must present a quantitative argument.

It's not American - the person who runs it is, and he could be in the UK soon, so you butt out. You don't have priority just because you're American.

Actually besides any of that, we are ALL guests here, wherever we are from.

by Original Quill Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:16 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I sorta agree. I know how gangs operate, and one of them was most likely the actor, and the rest were just hanging around...maybe cheer leading, but not actual killers.

If I'm right, the judge should have found the 'bad seed', and given him the heavy sentence, giving the others a little chance to rehabilitate themselves.

It's a good job the judge didn't do that - if he couldn't decide who was most responsible, they could all have walked.

They were all in it together, and I don't think that any of them were "hanging around" or cheerleading. Even if they were, they're just as guilty.

In my scenario the one who did the deed would receive a heavier sentence. If you think everybody within a 4-square block radius should be "just as guilty' go ahead and prosecute. Lol

by Original Quill Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:23 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Um...nicko, this is an American site. You are the guest. But of course you are always welcome, so I won't tell you to "butt out". American sites are known for free speech and proper debate.

Again, my point to tommy is to make a proper argument. If he wants to generalize, he certainly can. He must present a quantitative argument.

It's not American - the person who runs it is, and he could be in the UK soon, so you butt out. You don't have priority just because you're American.

The operative word is "soon". It's an American site as of the present. "Butt out" was not a persuasive point when nicko said it, and it's not a proper retort for you to use. It's a scared person who has no other answer, trying to censor discussion because he's frustrated and losing.

by Syl Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's a good job the judge didn't do that - if he couldn't decide who was most responsible, they could all have walked.

They were all in it together, and I don't think that any of them were "hanging around" or cheerleading. Even if they were, they're just as guilty.

In my scenario the one who did the deed would receive a heavier sentence. If you think everybody within a 4-square block radius should be "just as guilty' go ahead and prosecute. Lol

The two boys who did the actual deed did recieve heavier sentences.

What was chilling, three of these kids were only 14 at the time, they changed from their school uniforms before they went out looking for their victim.

by Syl Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:36 pm

magica wrote:
Syl wrote:

My points have been for the direct opposite....fool.
I swear you never actually read anyone's posts, you just follow the same old mantra in your head.

He must be confused Syl, gets you're name wrong aswell.

Its a hard three letter name to spell right if you are thick Mags. Razz

by Original Quill Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:45 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

In my scenario the one who did the deed would receive a heavier sentence. If you think everybody within a 4-square block radius should be "just as guilty' go ahead and prosecute. Lol

The two boys who did the actual deed did recieve heavier sentences.

Wise judge. Wink

by Tommy Monk Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:04 am

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

In my scenario the one who did the deed would receive a heavier sentence. If you think everybody within a 4-square block radius should be "just as guilty' go ahead and prosecute. Lol
The two boys who did the actual deed did recieve heavier sentences.

What was chilling, three of these kids were only 14 at the time, they changed from their school uniforms before they went out looking for their victim.

Premeditated murder!!!

by Original Quill Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:14 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
The two boys who did the actual deed did recieve heavier sentences.

What was chilling, three of these kids were only 14 at the time, they changed from their school uniforms before they went out looking for their victim.

Premeditated murder!!!

Apparently, it wasn't premeditated. The intent was not to kill, but to frighten and punish:

BBC wrote:The judge said: "The purpose was to punish him [Jacob] by the deliberate infliction of serious pain and humiliation, but to leave him alive.

Premeditated murder is when you intend to commit murder.

by Tommy Monk Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:34 am

Of course they are going to try to say they didn't mean to kill him!!!

But you don't set out in a gang to attack a certain person, and armed with knives, and then stab them 8 times... with intent to NOT kill them...

The judge got it wrong on this...

And they WERE found guilty of murder by the jury!!!

by Original Quill Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:47 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Of course they are going to try to say they didn't mean to kill him!!!

But you don't set out in a gang to attack a certain person, and armed with knives, and then stab them 8 times... with intent to NOT kill them...

The judge got it wrong on this...

And they WERE found guilty of murder by the jury!!!

Well, the court declared otherwise on premeditation...as a finding of fact. That means it's real in the eyes of the law.

It's conclusive, no matter what.

by Tommy Monk Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:05 pm

Not quite... if it was proven that there was no intent to kill, then they would not have been found guilty of MURDER!!!

The judge gave his 'opinion' that there was maybe no intent... but the jury found them guilty of murder!!!

The jury decide... the judge is there to preside over proceedings and to deliver sentencing...!

by nicko Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:47 am

"The Law is an Ass" in some cases !

by Original Quill Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:37 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Not quite... if it was proven that there was no intent to kill, then they would not have been found guilty of MURDER!!!

The judge gave his 'opinion' that there was maybe no intent... but the jury found them guilty of murder!!!

The jury decide... the judge is there to preside over proceedings and to deliver sentencing...!

Sorry tommy, that's a misstatement of the law. The crime is broken into three categories: manslaughter, murder (2nd degree) and premeditated murder (1st degree). The third category requires pre-cogitation, or some preconception indicating planning and intent.

The Court specifically found to the contrary on pre-cogitation. The Court found an intent to injure and scare the boy. You can't be injured or scared if you're dead. So the intent found by the Court was inconsistent with premeditated murder.

by Syl Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Not quite... if it was proven that there was no intent to kill, then they would not have been found guilty of MURDER!!!

The judge gave his 'opinion' that there was maybe no intent... but the jury found them guilty of murder!!!

The jury decide... the judge is there to preside over proceedings and to deliver sentencing...!

Sorry tommy, that's a misstatement of the law. The crime is broken into three categories: manslaughter, murder (2nd degree) and premeditated murder (1st degree). The third category requires pre-cogitation, or some preconception indicating planning and intent.

The Court specifically found to the contrary on pre-cogitation. The Court found an intent to injure and scare the boy. You can't be injured or scared if you're dead. So the intent found by the Court was inconsistent with premeditated murder.

Why could they not be found guilty of the 2nd category....murder without premeditated planning?

by Original Quill Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:04 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Sorry tommy, that's a misstatement of the law. The crime is broken into three categories: manslaughter, murder (2nd degree) and premeditated murder (1st degree). The third category requires pre-cogitation, or some preconception indicating planning and intent.

The Court specifically found to the contrary on pre-cogitation. The Court found an intent to injure and scare the boy. You can't be injured or scared if you're dead. So the intent found by the Court was inconsistent with premeditated murder.

Why could they not be found guilty of the 2nd category....murder without premeditated planning?

I believe that is what the jury determined the conviction was, and the sentence is for life.

by Raggamuffin Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:13 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's a good job the judge didn't do that - if he couldn't decide who was most responsible, they could all have walked.

They were all in it together, and I don't think that any of them were "hanging around" or cheerleading. Even if they were, they're just as guilty.

In my scenario the one who did the deed would receive a heavier sentence. If you think everybody within a 4-square block radius should be "just as guilty' go ahead and prosecute. Lol

The two who stabbed him did get a heavier sentence. The others didn't happen to be in a "4-square block radius", they lured him to the scene knowing what would happen.

by Raggamuffin Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

It's not American - the person who runs it is, and he could be in the UK soon, so you butt out. You don't have priority just because you're American.

The operative word is "soon". It's an American site as of the present. "Butt out" was not a persuasive point when nicko said it, and it's not a proper retort for you to use. It's a scared person who has no other answer, trying to censor discussion because he's frustrated and losing.

It's not American. Forumotion is not American.

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