A new national day has been announced by the PM... 'Stephen Lawrence day'!

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/697970/stephen-lawrence-day-april-22-theresa-may-racist-murder-25-years-Doreen-Eltham





https://www.channel4.com/news/lawrence-murder-trial-the-forensic-evidence





http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/the-rod-liddle-article-which-threatened-stephen-lawrence-trial-as-it-had-barely-begun-51305/

Tommy, can’t you at least put some of the story up?
Lazy arse.

Daily Mail wrote:APRIL 22 will forever be known as Stephen Lawrence Day in a lasting tribute to the teen murdered by racist thugs in London 25 years ago.

They can play Portrait of My Love all day long.

why
??????

Why, Vic? I think it is actually a really good idea. Perhaps it will bring some peace to his family who’ve suffered a fucking huge misjustice because their beloved family member was killed by white yobs and it was covered up by British police.

Seems justified to me.

eddie wrote:Tommy, can’t you at least put some of the story up?
Lazy arse.

I did put the main bit of the story up...!


The thread title gives you the story...


'...A NEW NATIONAL DAY HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED BY THE PM... 'STEPHEN LAWRENCE DAY'!...'


The rest of the article is just repeating some of the same tired old waffle that is usually spun out by the media whenever Lawrence is mentioned...!


So... given that the only 'news' is the PM announcing that there is to be a new national 'Stephen Lawrence day'... and I already covered that... not sure what else I could have added...!?

eddie wrote:Why, Vic? I think it is actually a really good idea. Perhaps it will bring some peace to his family who’ve suffered a fucking huge misjustice because their beloved family member was killed by white yobs and it was covered up by British police.  

Seems justified to me.

so why not have an Alan Turing day,
or
one for any number of white folks killed by black yobs

etc etc etc

What are we supposed to do on that day then?

For years I wondered if those boys were actually guilty as there didn't seem to be much evidence against them. Wasn't there another gang in the area at the time?

Later on, DNA evidence clinched it for two of them anyway, but that presumably wasn't available at the time.

Every one in Eltham and surrounding areas is sick to death of all this.

He was no angel. His mate run away and left him. I think it was to do with drugs.

The police were on the take, but they turned this into a racist killing.

Not long after a white boy was killed because he was white, it was racist and hushed up.

Lord Foul wrote:

eddie wrote:Why, Vic? I think it is actually a really good idea. Perhaps it will bring some peace to his family who’ve suffered a fucking huge misjustice because their beloved family member was killed by white yobs and it was covered up by British police.  

Seems justified to me.

so why not have an Alan Turing day,
or
one for any number of white folks killed by black yobs

etc etc etc

Are you serious? There was a major hush-up and his family were treated poorly.
It’s about time this happened. Perhaps it will serve as a reminder to corrupt and racist police.

my point is he isnt the only one

by a long stretch

and if its police coverups that bother you what about a "hillsborough day"?

Its nothing less than "angst", the disease that crippled germany for years after the war.
And its a meaningless gesture anyway, I mean, as Ragga rightly says , what are we supposed to do on this day? I suppose, aside from the family, a few insane politicos with an axe to grind and perhaps the odd guilty copper with a concience might make handsome speeches about how its all changed (it hasnt) and how lessons have been learned (and as propmptly forgotten since they are inconvenient), but beyond that ???????

I completely get what you’re saying and none of your points are invalid - there are many unfair gross misjustices and racist deaths, I agree.
But just because something is commonplace why is it wrong to pick one, and make a thing of it? That’s really the point in my opinion

Edit. That should say ALL of your points are valid.

Raggamuffin wrote:What are we supposed to do on that day then?

For years I wondered if those boys were actually guilty as there didn't seem to be much evidence against them. Wasn't there another gang in the area at the time?

Later on, DNA evidence clinched it for two of them anyway, but that presumably wasn't available at the time.

DNA evidence 'found' on clothes, after years of none being found on these clothes, but then 'found' after clothes were subject to handling and storage methods that posed high risk to cross contamination of DNA on clothes...


Highlighted in op post ch4 link...

magica wrote:Every one in Eltham and surrounding areas is sick to death of all this.

He was no angel. His mate run away and left him.  I think it was to do with drugs.

The police were on the take, but  they turned this into a racist killing.

Not long after a white boy was killed because he was white, it was racist and hushed up.

His mate 'Duwayne Brooks'... you mean this one...?


'...when the police arrived at the murder scene, Brooks snarled: “Who called you fucking cùnts anyway, pigs, I only called an ambulance.”...'

What about the Soldier hacked to death by two scumbag Muslims ? Why not a "day" for him ?
Did no one see the full length picture of him giving the black power salute? Only the top half of the photo is shown, why is that ?

Difference is the police didnt turn a blind eye to the Muslim arseholes and selectively ignore clues and dna.
They were guilty of institutional racism, were found out.
I expected the far right racists on here to compare the 2 occurrences.
But why not include the murder of Jo Cox?

Oh, the murderer was another far right nut job,of a like mindset to those that defend him but hate the fact the Lawrence's family were honoured for their relentless pursuit of justice against a corrupt and incompetent police force.

Go suck a lemon Nicko and deal with the fact that even young black guys can be wronged by white racist thugs.

[quote="Tommy Monk"]

magica wrote:Every one in Eltham and surrounding areas is sick to death of all this.

He was no angel. His mate run away and left him.  I think it was to do with drugs.

The police were on the take, but  they turned this into a racist killing.

Not long after a white boy was killed because he was white, it was racist and hushed up.

His mate 'Duwayne Brooks'... you mean this one...?


'...when the police arrived at the murder scene, Brooks snarled: “Who called you fucking cùnts anyway, pigs, I only called an ambulance.”...'

[/quot


Yeah, he was accused of rape before all this. Not sure what happened, don't think he was charged. Now am MP in Catford/Lewisham.

nicko wrote:What about the Soldier hacked to death by two scumbag Muslims ? Why not a "day" for him ?
Did no one see the full length picture of him giving the black power salute?  Only the top half of the photo is shown,   why is that ?

Exactly. No plaque for him. He has his name on a remembrance board in a military church, tucked away. The people wanted a plaque like Stephen Lawrence had, it was denied in case it upset Muslims.

So Andy, the death of a Soldier and the manner of his death means nothing to you ?

Why is there a remembrance day for him, nothing for our soldiers who died in fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. They should have their own one. Or a Lee Rigby memorial day.

nicko wrote:So Andy, the death of a Soldier and the manner of his death means nothing to you ?    

Show me where I said that..

This issue was much more than just a murder. The MacPherson report exposed corruption and dishonesty in the local police and an insidious bias towards a section of the community. A force as powerful as the police should be above board.


I don't believe in having a national day for this or that. But I do know that there's a national day for just about everything. Hundreds of them. You name it, and there's probably commemorative day for it. Ignore the ones which do not interest you. Lobby for the ones which you think should be created, instead of being resentful.

One of the meanest, nastiest threads I've seen in a long time.

You didn't mention it because it is no interest to you !
You'd rather a black man who gives a Black power salute be remembered, than a Soldier who was murdered by two Muslim scum.
The first photo of the Black lad was a full length one showing him giving the Black Power salute,ie clenched fist with black Glove on. In every other photo only the top half was shown, you must have missed that one.!

Jules wrote:One of the meanest, nastiest threads I've seen in a long time.

You go by what the media says, not by what actually happened, I wasn't there so don't know either.

The police were corrupt, they've always been corrupt, not just on this case but on many others, which doesn't get talked about.

Stephen Lawrence was no angel, he wasn't liked by many of his age . No he shouldn't have been killed, no one should because of their colour, but it wasn't because of his colour.

He has a plaque with a camera on it, why? Where are the plaques for others. Lee Rigby for instance, the people did everything they could to get one, it was denied. Why is Stephens murder any different from Lees.

The McPherson report is a load of bollocks... which resulted in stop and search being reduced and street muggings up 50%...

+1

nicko wrote:You didn't mention it because it is no interest to you !
You'd rather a black man who gives a Black power salute be remembered,  than a Soldier who was murdered by two Muslim scum.
The first photo of the Black lad was a full length one showing him giving the Black Power salute,ie clenched fist with black Glove on. In every other photo only the top half was shown, you must have missed that one.!

Thinking about this this am. Race has become more important to you, nicko, than when I argued you were not into it. What has changed?

I'm not sure I agree with this, there are so many people that have had something on these lines happen to them why pick out one person? Why not have a Justice Day and remember everyone who has not had the justice they deserve.

From a 2009 article...


'...But the Lawrence murder took on a wide social significance because of its racial overtones. The botched investigation became a cause célèbre—the presumption being that racism alone could explain the police’s failure to bring the perpetrators to justice—and the government launched an official inquiry to “identify the lessons to be learned for the investigation and prosecution of racially motivated crimes.” There followed a festival of political and emotional correctness the likes of which have rarely been equaled. It would be impossible, at less than book length, to plumb the depths of intellectual confusion and moral cowardice to which the inquiry plunged. In 1999, it released a report of its findings that won almost universal praise despite its risible shortcomings.

This year, on the tenth anniversary of the report, the press and professional criminologists are celebrating it for, as one put it, bringing about a “paradigm shift” in the sensitivities of British police about “diversity”—police now think about race all the time, it seems. The report’s real effect, however, was to demoralize further an already demoralized police force, which, immediately after the report appeared, retreated from stopping or searching people behaving suspiciously and watched street robberies increase 50 percent.

Perhaps the fact that the inquiry was open to the public had something to do with the nature of the resulting report. The public gallery regularly overflowed with activists and extremists, who did not hesitate to jeer and mock the witnesses with whom they disagreed; the head of the inquiry, Sir William Macpherson, rarely admonished these spectators, thus creating an officially sanctioned atmosphere of intimidation. Among the self-congratulatory sentences that opened the report (“We believe that our procedures did ensure fairness”; “The contributions of the Inquiry’s Advisers to the Report and to the conclusions to the Report . . . have been imaginative, radical and of incalculable worth”) was the following, a flash of lightning in the darkness: “We thank the officers from the Walworth Police Station, who in difficult and sometimes dangerous circumstances have helped to keep order when emotions ran high.” An incipient riot is not a situation in which the truth is likely to emerge or to be uppermost in people’s minds.

The report’s contention was that the mishandled Lawrence case illustrated the “institutional racism” of the London police force. Poor Sir William tied himself in knots trying to explain the notion of institutional racism, relying in part on that great moral authority on race relations, Stokely Carmichael, the onetime “prime minister” of the Black Panthers. As Macpherson admitted, he could point to no actual instance of racist behavior by the officers involved in the case, though evidence of incompetence and delay was abundant. But if he had concluded from the lack of evidence of racist behavior that the police were not racist, he doubtless would have become an object of execration by all the people who think the right thoughts. Thus Macpherson’s redefinition of racism: “Failure to adjust policies and methods to meet the needs of policing a multi-racial society can occur simply because police officers may mistakenly believe that it is legitimate to be ‘colour-blind’ in both individual and team response to the management and investigation of racist crimes.”

On the very next page, however, Sir William quoted approvingly the assertion of an association of black police officers: “Institutional racism leads officers to act, albeit unconsciously, and for the most part unintentionally, and treat others differently because of their ethnicity or culture.” In other words, if you treat people the same, you are racist; but if you treat them differently, you are racist. It is clear that we are here in the realm not of the rule of law but of the Malleus Maleficarum, and that Macpherson is acting not as judge but as witchfinder-general.

The evidence of institutional racism that Macpherson uncovered would be laughable, had the liberal press not taken it so seriously. For example, when the police arrived at the murder scene, Brooks snarled: “Who called you fucking geranium anyway, pigs, I only called an ambulance.” That the police did not feel entirely reassured that Brooks was a respectable, upright citizen, and ignored the fact that he was also a victim of the attack, became for Macpherson a sign of their racist stereotyping, not a natural response to such vile abuse, which is not a normal way for the law-abiding to address the supposed guardians of the law—or, indeed, anyone else.

Further evidence, in Sir William’s view, was that some of the detectives refused to accept that the Lawrence murder was “wholly racist,” though none denied at least a racist element. Of course, since no one had actually been convicted of the murder, the murderer’s motive could not be known for certain. And even if the suspects—a violent group, certainly—were indeed the culprits, was racism the sole, or even primary, cause of their violence? One suspect—David Norris, the drug trafficker’s son—was almost certainly guilty of that earlier stabbing in which his father became illegally involved, as the report observed. But there the victim was white. Norris and two other suspects in the Lawrence murder had also been suspects in another assault, this one on two brothers, both white. In both instances, Norris got off because of incompetent prosecutions.

Macpherson did not draw the obvious inference, and if he did, the liberal intelligentsia would not have applauded...'


https://www.city-journal.org/html/modern-witch-trial-13180.html

I'm still "not into it" Quill, I don't care about a mans colour but I want to see a level playground. Why laud a man who mixed with criminals and ignore a man who served his country ?

'...The report’s contention was that the mishandled Lawrence case illustrated the “institutional racism” of the London police force. Poor Sir William tied himself in knots trying to explain the notion of institutional racism, relying in part on that great moral authority on race relations, Stokely Carmichael, the onetime “prime minister” of the Black Panthers. As Macpherson admitted, he could point to no actual instance of racist behavior by the officers involved in the case, though evidence of incompetence and delay was abundant. But if he had concluded from the lack of evidence of racist behavior that the police were not racist, he doubtless would have become an object of execration by all the people who think the right thoughts. Thus Macpherson’s redefinition of racism: “Failure to adjust policies and methods to meet the needs of policing a multi-racial society can occur simply because police officers may mistakenly believe that it is legitimate to be ‘colour-blind’ in both individual and team response to the management and investigation of racist crimes.”

On the very next page, however, Sir William quoted approvingly the assertion of an association of black police officers: “Institutional racism leads officers to act, albeit unconsciously, and for the most part unintentionally, and treat others differently because of their ethnicity or culture.” In other words, if you treat people the same, you are racist; but if you treat them differently, you are racist. It is clear that we are here in the realm not of the rule of law but of the Malleus Maleficarum, and that Macpherson is acting not as judge but as witchfinder-general...'

nicko wrote:I'm still "not into it" Quill, I don't care about a mans colour but I want to see a level playground.   Why laud a man who mixed with criminals and ignore a man who served his country ?

Take a look:

nicko wrote:You'd rather a black man who gives a Black power salute be remembered,  than a Soldier who was murdered by two Muslim scum.
The first photo of the Black lad was a full length one showing him giving the Black Power salute,ie clenched fist with black Glove on. In every other photo only the top half was shown, you must have missed that one.!

I agree, you're not into just a man's color, but his politics-related-to-his-color.  The so-called "Black power salute" is the anti-Christ for you.  You emphasize that "clenched fist" and "black Glove on" are negative signatures, suggesting that they have anti-symbolic meaning for you.

In the US you wouldn't get away with the opposition of black power and the soldier.  Blacks are represented in the military much more than their proportion in society.

What about the prison population percentage, compared to national population percentage, quill...?


Although this thread has nothing to do with the US... so I don't know why you are trying to divert it...

The Lawrence case undoubtedly raised some important issues and exposed both complacency and serial incompetence in the higher echelons of the Criminal Prosecution Service as well as ethnic bias among senior officers of the Metropolitan Police (I refuse to accept charges of "institutional racism" for a number of reasons that are not relevant to this debate). I also applaud the tenacity and dignity of his parents, and particularly his mother whose work not only on behalf of her son but also of other disadvantaged sectors of society earned her well deserved recognition in the form of a cross-bench life Peerage.

But a national and annual Steven Lawrence Day "celebration"? I think not.

Why, in the name of all that's holy, should the murder of a single black youth result in his elevation to the memorial equal status of a distinguished national leader, a momentous battle won by the country's military or a Christian Saint? (Sorry, Lurker: You have your opinions on religion and I have mine!)

This is pandering to political correctness to the point of appeasement by the Establishment, and it has cost Theresa May my admiration, support and confidence - and yes, I feel that strongly about the matter!

As others, notably Nicko, have asked: What about soldier Lee Rigby? He was murdered horribly and in cold blood by low life, thuggish scum not of his own race or religion.

What about PC Yvonne Fletcher? She was murdered in cold blood by political and racial thuggish scum not of her own race or religion.

Will there be a Lee Rigby Day? Will there be an Yvonne Fletcher Day? Not fucking likely...because they were British, white and serving their country faithfully when they were cut down in the prime of life.

Absolutely bloody disgusting...and to the eternal shame of those who both proposed and imposed this vile and ridiculous travesty of justice.

And finally, for the benefit of the forum's resident standard-bearer of loony Leftism: Isn't it deliciously ironic that the family of Stephen Lawrence would never have received the justice that they deserved but for the dedicated and tireless work of the team of investigative journalists who worked for that award-winning, campaigning newspaper.....the Right-leaning Daily Mail!!!!!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

What about the prison population percentage, compared to national population percentage, quill...?

That has to do with the way America acculturates blacks in this country.  With fewer educational opportunities, fewer employment opportunities, and police attitudes toward the black community (termed: inner-city), the greater culture herds the black community into prisons.

Indeed, a part of the popularity of military life is that it protects and guides soldiers in paths that help avoid the pitfalls and traps that society sets out for blacks.

Gave you a green thing for that Fred, you explain things better than me !

Tommy Monk wrote:The McPherson report is a load of bollocks... which resulted in stop and search being reduced and street muggings up 50%...

I couldn't really see where the "institutional racism" came in, or corruption. There were mistakes of course, but very little actual evidence against the boys. They tried surveillance but they never incriminated themselves. A lot of it was local people naming them - not much to go on. It also wasn't the police who decided that Dwayne's evidence should be disallowed.

Actually I support the day.

Its very important to show how at the time, there was a problem with racism and this case brought such a problem to the limelight. It was a turning point, that the Police to their shame, did not even start investigating the case, until 4 days later. Thus ensuring valuable evidence was lost. The initial investigation was filled with blunders

Despite more than 20 people naming the suspects within 48 hours of the attacks, the police did nothing to apprehend them until more than two weeks later, missing out on potential forensic opportunities.
Rather than arrest them, the police instead decided to put surveillance outside the Acourts house. But this too was flawed.
The surveillance did not begin until four days after the murder, partly because the police prioritised the surveillance of a young black man wanted on suspicion of theft over the murder or Stephen Lawrence.


When surveillance did begin, two incidents summed up the blundering nature of the investigation.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8974032/Stephen-Lawrence-murder-a-tale-of-two-police-investigations.html

This case was a turning point in Britain and i think it should be a day to remember, that we did in fact look to change, problems within the Police and society with racism. It highlighted that the Police clearly through errors and a bias against Black people. Led to this case having a later second investigation.

To use claims to other cases, is at best idiotic.

Anyone here wants to campaign for the victims of Hillsborough, Lee Rigby and Yvonne Fletcher to have a day in their rememberence, they will have my full support. All our worthy to have one. That though does not mean, we should not have a day, for such a famous case, which did shock the very foundations of our police and justice system around racism. So to claim based off others, is to me a piss poor excuse, when there is nothing stopping any here putting forward a case for those mentioned and again I would back this.

What people neglect here, is why it was a major turning point in British history with race relations. To belittle this and even worse have some conspiracy bullshit mocking Stephen Lawrence claiming there was something wrong with him, as if to justify his murder, shows those posters, still have learnt nothing from this case or past racism.

so on EXACTLY the same grounds...are we going to see a Poppi Worthington day??
The reality is that, apart from the family (who doubtless have a day of remembrance anyway), within a year or less, it will be forgotten about by 99.9% of the population......I mean...who keeps track of all these "days" anyhow??? I know I dont.....

Lord Foul wrote:so on EXACTLY the same grounds...are we going to see a Poppi Worthington day??
The reality is that, apart from the family (who doubtless have a day of remembrance anyway), within a year or less, it will be forgotten about by 99.9% of the population......I mean...who keeps track of all these "days" anyhow??? I know I dont.....

Then campaign for such a day, you have my blessing, but using other events to deny another historic event. Clearly is not someone supporting a day for Poppy Worthington, but poorly using that case, to deny a day for Stephen lawrence and to me, is pathetic.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:

What about the prison population percentage, compared to national population percentage, quill...?

That has to do with the way America acculturates blacks in this country.  With fewer educational opportunities, fewer employment opportunities, and police attitudes toward the black community (termed: inner-city), the greater culture herds the black community into prisons.

Indeed, a part of the popularity of military life is that it protects and guides soldiers in paths that help avoid the pitfalls and traps that society sets out for blacks.

I would say that 'black culture' of gangs/guns/drugs/gangsta rap/get rich quick/fuck the police & their 'them & us' mentality etc is the problem... and that this type of 'black culture' thinking/behaviour is so widespread and dominant among black communities, that it is really what 'acculturates' so many other blacks in the country to think/behave the same...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

That has to do with the way America acculturates blacks in this country.  With fewer educational opportunities, fewer employment opportunities, and police attitudes toward the black community (termed: inner-city), the greater culture herds the black community into prisons.

Indeed, a part of the popularity of military life is that it protects and guides soldiers in paths that help avoid the pitfalls and traps that society sets out for blacks.

I would say that 'black culture' of gangs/guns/drugs/gangsta rap/get rich quick/fuck the police & their 'them & us' mentality etc is the problem... and that this type of 'black culture' thinking/behaviour is so widespread and dominant among black communities, that it is really what 'acculturates' so many other blacks in the country to think/behave the same...

Really, based on what evidence?

How many people classed black?

Such a view is emphtically you basing this off a poor sterotype

nicko wrote:Gave you a green thing for that Fred,   you explain things better than me !

Thanks, mate. This whole charade has made me fucking furious. Stephen Lawrence more deserving than Winston Churchill? Or Keir Hardie? Or Emmeline Pankhurst? Or Oliver Cromwell? or King Alfred the Great?

Absolute bloody PC madness.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

nicko wrote:Gave you a green thing for that Fred,   you explain things better than me !

Thanks, mate. This whole charade has made me fucking furious. Stephen Lawrence more deserving than Winston Churchill? Or Keir Hardie? Or Emmeline Pankhurst? Or Oliver Cromwell? or King Alfred the Great?

Absolute bloody PC madness.

Who said he was more deserving?

Nobody has, only you have made yourself believe so

Oliver Cromwell?

Are you actually serious?

You want to campaign for any of the above bar Cromwell, who butchered countless Irish, then you have my blessing. Have you actually bothered to campaign for them, or are you using them, to simple stop a day for Stephen Lawrence?

Nothing to do with PC, but showing how clearly some still have not learn from this lesson in British history

Oh there is a national day for Churchill on April 9th, set by America

Did any here celebrate the day for him?

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


I would say that 'black culture' of gangs/guns/drugs/gangsta rap/get rich quick/fuck the police & their 'them & us' mentality etc is the problem... and that this type of 'black culture' thinking/behaviour is so widespread and dominant among black communities, that it is really what 'acculturates' so many other blacks in the country to think/behave the same...

Really, based on what evidence?

How many people classed black?

Such a view is emphtically you basing this off a poor sterotype

You want evidence now...!!!???


You haven't bothered with needing any recently RE Syria...


But all you need do is look at prison population and how it is rife with gangs... and the wider gang culture in black communities in US...!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Didge wrote:


Really, based on what evidence?

How many people classed black?

Such a view is emphtically you basing this off a poor sterotype

You want evidence now...!!!???


You haven't bothered with needing any recently RE Syria...


But all you need do is look at prison population and how it is rife with gangs... and the wider gang culture in black communities in US...!!!

Deflection alert

So you basically have no evidence for your accusation

So you now claim, that because of a Prison population, due to a multitude of crimes, even though far more whites reside in prisons by a long margin.

So clearly, based on your reasoning, you must believe the following

I would say that 'white culture' of rape/child sex abuse/child abuse/domestic violence/pop/get rich quick/fuck the police, black, Asians & their 'them & us' mentality etc is the problem... and that this type of 'white culture' thinking/behaviour is so widespread and dominant among  white communities, that it is really what 'acculturates' so many other whites in the country to think/behave the same...

Is that what you think based on your warped reasoning of white people?

Tommy Monk wrote:But all you need do is look at prison population and how it is rife with gangs... and the wider gang culture in black communities in US...!!!

But again, tommy, that is the effect, not the cause. If we were to relax all discriminatory attitudes and institutions, we would see in a couple of generations the resultant discriminatory patterns, in prisons and elsewhere, simply disappear.

A lot of people are arguing that this isn’t the only murder, racist or otherwise, so why shouldn’t we honour all the dead?

So, I’ll repeat what I said earlier - just because something is commonplace why is it wrong to pick one, and make a moment out of it?