Who do you love: Israel or Syria

Haaratz wrote:Israel Downs Iranian Drone, Strikes Syria; Israeli F-16 Shot Down

One pilot in serious condition ■ Israel attacks Syrian, Iranian targets in fresh strike ■ Rocket sirens sound throughout northern Israel

Yaniv Kubovich, Jack Khoury, Noa Landau and Noa Shpigel | Feb 10, 2018

An Israeli F-16 was downed Saturday morning after Israel intercepted an Iranian drone launched from Syria into Israeli territory. According to the Israeli army, Syrian anti-aircraft missiles targeted the jet after Israel responded to the infiltration of the drone with a strike in Syria.

The two F-16 pilots ejected as the plane went down in northern Israel. The pilots were taken to the hospital in stable condition. One of the pilots is in serious condition. Following the downing of the jet Israel responded with a fresh "large-scale strike" in Syria.

The pro-Assad military alliance, which includes Iran and Hezbollah, warned Israel on Saturday that any new act of what it called "terrorism" will be met with a "severe and serious response." Russia called on sides to exercise restraint, adding that any threat to the safety of Russian servicemen are "unacceptable."

In response, the Israeli military struck targets in Syria. Manelis said the targets included the trailer from which "the Iranians launched the drone," adding that, "This was a surgical action deep in Syria, target destroyed."

Manelis confirmed that sirens were activated but said civilians were not in danger.

"This is a serious Iranian attack on Israeli territory," Manelis said "Iran is dragging the region into a situation in which it doesn't know how it will end. We are prepared for a variety of incidents...whoever is responsible for this incident is the one who will pay the price."

Rocket sirens sounded for a second time following the downing of the jet. Syrian state TV reported explosions in the Damascus area, calling them new "Israeli aggression."

Shortly afterwards, the Israeli military said it has carried out a fresh 'large-scale strike' against 12 Iranian and Syrian targets in Syria. The targets included four Syrian air-defense batteries and four Iranian targets, the military said.

Landings and departures were temporarily halted at Israel's Ben-Gurion International Airport, located near the central city of Tel Aviv.

An Israeli military spokesman said that Syria and Iran are "playing with fire" and will pay a heavy price. The Prime Minister Office has instructed cabinet ministers not to speak publicly about the events on the northern border.

Opposition sources in Damascus said that an Israeli strike targeted a control tower of a Syrian military airfield near Damascus, and a weapons depot near the Syrian capital.

According to official Israeli sources, since the incidents began Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been holding security consultations and approving the necessary actions in real-time. Members of the Israeli security cabinet have been briefed on the details.

Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman will hold a special security assessment meeting shortly with the IDF chief of staff and senior army and security officials.

Syrian television claimed Saturday morning more than one Israeli aircraft was hit by Syria's defense systems.

Due to Syrian anti-aircraft fire, says the army, rocket sirens sounded in multiple areas of northern Israel, first in the northern Israeli town of Beit She’an and later in the surrounding areas and Golan Heights.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I find the heading for this thread just a bit weird...

I have no reason to "love" any country other than the country of my birth..

Even then, it's certainly nowhere near the same kind of strong bond one might have with close family, true friends and some pets.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:My sympathies will always be with Israel and its people who, since 1947, have faced the never-rescinded (apart from Jordan and Egypt, I understand) Arab pledge to "drive the Jews into the sea."

My preference is also influenced by having been the unintended (I think!) and, thank God, unsuccessful target of a Palestinian hand grenade while serving as a member of a fact-finding delegation  on the "night of the gliders" near the South Lebanon border in November 1987.

Didge wrote:Some people clearly need to understand the history conflicts started by the Syrians against Israel and that unlike Eygpt and Jordan, have not come to peace with Israel.

Israel has every right to retaliate and take out military threats.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Yes, there were proxy wars all over the globe. The vast majority of those did  the people of those countries no help. Vietnam was a good example. The former colonial powers knew it was a waste of time and left ot to us, a few Aussies and S. Koreans.


Same thing is happening in Yemen between Saudi and Iran today. Only a fool would stick their nose in there.

However,  those proxy wars didn't cause the Berlin wall to come down.  

The problem with being the world's policemen beyond the fact that your boys come home in boxes and their children are saddled with debt, is that for every friend you make you make an enemy.  And half those friends are only tour friends because you are buying their friendship. They can become your enemynat the drop of a hat.  

They did people no help?

Based on what history?

I seriously wonder what on earth they are teaching kids in the US history over the last 50 years

Only an idiot would sit by and allow people to suffer when they can do somethin about it. To say we should not is the most lamest and cowardly answer a person can give

If you want to be hypocritical and only maintain order within the geography and tribalism you maintain there? Then you are no friend of humanity. Until the world stands up to oppression, then this will continue unabated.

To say it happens, is about the lamest excuse going or that you care only for "your boys" coming home in boxes, shows how lame society is tribally still. Surely the universal rights of humans matter most?

Something you have and many people in the world do not.

Eiether you stand for universal human rights or you stand for nothing

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:


They did people no help?

Based on what history?

I seriously wonder what on earth they are teaching kids in the US history over the last 50 years

Only an idiot would sit by and allow people to suffer when they can do somethin about it. To say we should not is the most lamest and cowardly answer a person can give

If you want to be hypocritical and only maintain order within the geography and tribalism you maintain there? Then you are no friend of humanity. Until the world stands up to oppression, then this will continue unabated.

To say it happens, is about the lamest excuse going or that you care only for "your boys" coming home in boxes, shows how lame society is tribally still. Surely the universal rights of humans matter most?

Something you have and many people in the world do not.

Eiether you stand for universal human rights or you stand for nothing

Apparently you and I have different definitions of help. Mine requires that my actions have measurable, positive results for those trying to be helped.  

And, yes I'm am American, not a globalist. American boys are the ones I put first and I don't care how much you don't like it.  

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:


They did people no help?

Based on what history?

I seriously wonder what on earth they are teaching kids in the US history over the last 50 years

Only an idiot would sit by and allow people to suffer when they can do somethin about it. To say we should not is the most lamest and cowardly answer a person can give

If you want to be hypocritical and only maintain order within the geography and tribalism you maintain there? Then you are no friend of humanity. Until the world stands up to oppression, then this will continue unabated.

To say it happens, is about the lamest excuse going or that you care only for "your boys" coming home in boxes, shows how lame society is tribally still. Surely the universal rights of humans matter most?

Something you have and many people in the world do not.

Eiether you stand for universal human rights or you stand for nothing

Apparently you and I have different definitions of help. Mine requires that my actions have measurable, positive results for those trying to be helped.  

And, yes I'm am American, not a globalist. American boys are the ones I put first and I don't care how much you don't like it.  

Raggamuffin wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Apparently you and I have different definitions of help. Mine requires that my actions have measurable, positive results for those trying to be helped.  

And, yes I'm am American, not a globalist. American boys are the ones I put first and I don't care how much you don't like it.  

There's nothing wrong with putting your own people first.

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

Apparently you and I have different definitions of help. Mine requires that my actions have measurable, positive results for those trying to be helped.  

And, yes I'm am American, not a globalist. American boys are the ones I put first and I don't care how much you don't like it.  

American is a concept

Your family is humanity, not something imagined.

Its not a case of liking, I am not concerned either way, its more to show how people divide themselves needlessly

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's nothing wrong with putting your own people first.

Your own?

Do you put your neighbours first?

Or the people in the next street?

The next town?

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:


American is a concept

Your family is humanity, not something imagined.

Its not a case of liking, I am not concerned either way, its more to show how people divide themselves needlessly

That's your opinion. Your still allowed to have one. So am I.  I think Switzerland is a country that has helped Iraq as much as the US.  I'm sure you have a different opinion and will express it by questioning my education.  

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's nothing wrong with putting your own people first.

Your own?

Do you put your neighbours first?

Or the people in the next street?

The next town?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Your own?

Do you put your neighbours first?

Or the people in the next street?

The next town?

Yes, your own. I guess you think that people in remote tribes should go off to fight against people they have nothing to do with then.

Maddog wrote:

Didge wrote:

Your own?

Do you put your neighbours first?

Or the people in the next street?

The next town?

The term "citizen" comes to mind.  

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, your own. I guess you think that people in remote tribes should go off to fight against people they have nothing to do with then.

You never answer my questions

Which would you put first?

Explain "your own"

Is there something unique being born between imaginary boundaries that class a country?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

You never answer my questions

Which would you put first?

Explain "your own"

Is there something unique being born between imaginary boundaries that class a country?

The people who live in the same country as you.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

The people who live in the same country as you.

Try again

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Try again

I just answered you. Now you answer this:

Do you think that people in remote tribes should go off to fight against people they have nothing to do with for the sake of "humanity"?  

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I just answered you. Now you answer this:

Do you think that people in remote tribes should go off to fight against people they have nothing to do with for the sake of "humanity"?  

Try again

Raggamuffin wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:My sympathies will always be with Israel and its people who, since 1947, have faced the never-rescinded (apart from Jordan and Egypt, I understand) Arab pledge to "drive the Jews into the sea."

My preference is also influenced by having been the unintended (I think!) and, thank God, unsuccessful target of a Palestinian hand grenade while serving as a member of a fact-finding delegation  on the "night of the gliders" near the South Lebanon border in November 1987.

What about the right of Syria to defend itself though? OK, there was this Iranian drone which the Israelis decided had come from Syria, so they shot it down - fair enough. They then went into Syria with jets to destroy some facilities, and the Syrians defended themselves by shooting the jets, one of which was downed. Israel then sent in more jets in revenge for the jet being downed, but why do they expect Syria to just accept Israeli jets over Syria?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Try again

I answered you, so you answer me. There's no point you hassling me until I give an answer that you like.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I answered you, so you answer me. There's no point you hassling me until I give an answer that you like.

I gave you options and you failed to answer mine

With remote tribes, they can die if they have not been in contact with humans through diseases.

If they have been in contact with humans and are okay, off course they should help those oppressed.

What do you think happened in ww2

Now try again

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

I gave you options and you failed to answer mine

With remote tribes, they can die if they have not been in contact with humans through diseases.

If they have been in contact with humans and are okay, off course they should help those oppressed.

What do you think happened in ww2

Now try again

Well you think that all humans should get involved when there's trouble, right? You must therefor include remote tribes in that, and you must think that they should go and fight people they know nothing about.

Raggamuffin wrote:

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

I find the heading for this thread just a bit weird...

I have no reason to "love" any country other than the country of my birth..

Even then, it's certainly nowhere near the same kind of strong bond one might have with close family, true friends and some pets.

It's just Quill's way of asking who Trump will support really.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Well you think that all humans should get involved when there's trouble, right? You must therefor include remote tribes in that, and you must think that they should go and fight people they know nothing about.

I think its dumb to ask people who could die just by attempting to ask them, if they are remote.

As they would be no use

Still cannot answer my questions

No problem, you helped prove my point.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

I think its dumb to ask people who could die just by attempting to ask them, if they are remote.

As they would be no use

Still cannot answer my questions

No problem, you helped prove my point.

Eh? I think you're missing the point - as usual.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It's just Quill's way of asking who Trump will support really.

Gd. point, Raggs.  But it's only part of the motivation.  Going back to a prediction I made--perhaps 6 - 8 years ago--that the final middle east battle will involve Israel and Iran, I couldn't help but flag this incident because it may have legs.  There's just something about having two potential adversaries in close proximity, with gunpowder and a match handy.

But then there's Trump, with a professed love (doesn't everybody?) for Israel, and a contemporary love affair with Putin, who may well have to support Iran.  If we just flagged any old confrontation...well, look below, the graveyard is full of dead stories.  But this one obviously has longevity and I thought if I just gave it a nudge in the right direction..and lo, it's three pages long already.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Eh? I think you're missing the point - as usual.

I dont think so, hence my questions and why they have been avoided

Didge wrote:You avoided it

I asked who you would help first out of your neighbours, people in the next street or town

Didge wrote:

Maddog wrote:

The term "citizen" comes to mind.  

Which would you help first?

I mean you said helping your own, so which is it?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:You avoided it

I asked who you would help first out of your neighbours, people in the next street or town

My neighbours.

Now stop harassing me.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

My neighbours.

Now stop harassing me.

Why place them above the others?

They are all "your own" people?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Why place them above the others?

They are all "your own" people?

Because I know them.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Because I know them.

Which is my point. Many people do not even help, their "own people", they help people they know

You see this al the time, when people do not even stop and help the homeless for example

I know Maddog does this in his community and helps.

So when people say help "your own" they generally, do not even do that.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Which is my point. Many people do not even help, their "own people", they help people they know

You see this al the time, when people do not even stop and help the homeless for example

I know Maddog does this in his community and helps.

So when people say help "your own" they generally, do not even do that.

I didn't say I don't help help the homeless - you asked specifically about my neighbours, so I replied.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I didn't say I don't help help the homeless - you asked specifically about my neighbours, so I replied.

I am say that when people say they to help" their own" its generally bullshit as seen

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

I am say that when people say they to help" their own" its generally bullshit as seen

No it's not. Maddog clearly said that he cares about fellow Americans coming home in body bags, but you even have to make an issue of that, even though it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

No it's not. Maddog clearly said that he cares about fellow Americans coming home in body bags, but you even have to make an issue of that, even though it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

I agree in that Maddog is the exception to the rule, hence why I stated as such

Many others are as seen dp not

To say it happens, is about the lamest excuse going or that you care only for "your boys" coming home in boxes, shows how lame society is tribally still. Surely the universal rights of humans matter most?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

I agree in that Maddog is the exception to the rule, hence why I stated as such

Many others are as seen dp not

You made an issue of what he said.

To say it happens, is about the lamest excuse going or that you care only for "your boys" coming home in boxes, shows how lame society is tribally still. Surely the universal rights of humans matter most?

You made it sound like it didn't matter that Americans are coming home in boxes. In fact it was a foul post altogether.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You made an issue of what he said.



You made it sound like it didn't matter that Americans are coming home in boxes. In fact it was a foul post altogether.

Never made any such claim or insinuation, as I stated people should care for "all" humanity

So if I state all, how would that mean they did not matter?

Its you inventing an issue here

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:

Never made any such claim or insinuation, as I stated people should care for "all" humanity

So if I state all, how would that mean they did not matter?

Its you inventing an issue here

Why shouldn't someone care more about their fellow citizens coming home in body bags, especially as they went to help others and got killed themselves? What is the point of that?

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Why shouldn't someone care more about their fellow citizens coming home in body bags, especially as they went to help others and got killed themselves? What is the point of that?

Becuase we are all human, and thus dividing people helps nobody in the long term.

Every nation functions now globally

What if every country took such a stance?

This country alone, cannot sustain itself without outside resources and food for example.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


Becuase we are all human, and thus dividing people helps nobody in the long term.

Every nation functions now globally

What if every country took such a stance?

This country alone, cannot sustain itself without outside resources and food for example.

I don't agree. I don't think it's wrong to care more about people coming home in body bags than the people who caused the problem in the first place. Leave them to sort it out themselves - they caused it, they can sort it.

Maddog wrote:This thread is about Israels reaction to a drone crossing it's border and has morphed into a discussion about if people should acknowledge borders.  

If borders and citizenship don't matter, what's the point of getting upset with drones from other areas flying in your area?