dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

by veya_victaous Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:14 pm

A MAN and his biological daughter who are reportedly “planning to get married” are facing incest charges after they allegedly had a baby together.

According to The Sun, Steven Pladl, 42, of Wake County, North Carolina, gave up Katie Pladl, 20, for adoption as a baby but she contacted her parents through social media when she turned 18, police said.

She went to live with her biological parents and their two children near Richmond, Virginia, in August 2016 before the couple legally separated three months later, according to local news channel WNCN.

The wife, who has not been named, told authorities that her husband would sleep on the floor of Katie’s room in the months before she moved out.

In May last year, she read in one of her children’s journals that Katie was pregnant with her father’s baby and that her husband Steven Pladl had told his other children to call Katie their stepmother, according to the arrest warrant.

When his wife confronted him, Pladl allegedly confirmed he had impregnated their adult daughter and that they planned to marry.

A week later, father and daughter moved to Wake County and in November last year a warrant was issued for their arrest.

They were located at an address last week, where officers discovered a baby boy who is understood to be the four-month-old child of the pair.

Steven and Katie Pladl were held at the Wake County Detention Center pending extradition to Virginia and charged with incest with adult, adultery, contributing to delinquency.

Court records show that Steven Pladl has been released on a $1 million bond while Katie Pladl, issued with the same bond, remains in jail.

According to the warrant, they are due to make their first court appearance on Monday.

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/american-dad-and-daughter-have-baby-plan-to-marry-face-incest-charges/news-story/9aa467e6ac6761f7f6d97c2a28398659

by Cass Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:29 am

Gross

by Original Quill Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:39 am

Trump has probably already deregulated the incest laws.

Ah well...

by Syl Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:23 pm

When a parent has no contact with their baby through whatever reason, there has been several cases reported of when the child grows up, meets the parent, a sexual love grows between them.
I read of case a few years ago where a mother met her long lost son after many years and fell in love with him.

Unfortunatey, as in this case, the parent and child take it further.

by magica Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:34 pm

It's horrible, poor baby

by Maddog Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:57 pm

I guess sometimes, love doesn't always win. Shocked

by Guest Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:04 pm

Maddog wrote:I guess sometimes, love doesn't always win.

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?

by Maddog Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:10 pm

Didge wrote:
Maddog wrote:I guess sometimes, love doesn't always win.

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?

I'm not going to lose any sleep over this pairing either, but I think some will come at it from a scientific perspective saying the state has an obligation to keep partners from reproducing when there is an increased chance of birth defects.

by Syl Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:39 pm

Didge wrote:
Maddog wrote:I guess sometimes, love doesn't always win.

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?

Incest is wrong, it just goes against everything we believe in that a parent should mate with their biological child.

I do have sympathy for them, but it shouldnt be condoned.

by Maddog Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:43 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?
Incest is wrong, it just goes against everything we believe in that a parent should mate with their biological child.

I do have sympathy for them, but it shouldnt be condoned.

I think it's bat shit crazy, but I don't see how we put people in jail for it.

For the record, I think marrying two women is bat shit crazy too, and I can accept that some people like that arrangement.

by Syl Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:44 pm

Didge wrote:
Maddog wrote:I guess sometimes, love doesn't always win.

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?

They have allready had a baby together.

by Syl Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:47 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:
Incest is wrong, it just goes against everything we believe in that a parent should mate with their biological child.

I do have sympathy for them, but it shouldnt be condoned.

I think it's bat shit crazy, but I don't see how we put people in jail for it.

For the record, I think marrying two women is bat shit crazy too, and I can accept that some people like that arrangement.

The damage has allready been done, I dont know what punishment should be meted out, even if he was imprisoned they would probably get together again when he was released.

by Guest Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:53 am

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?
Incest is wrong, it just goes against everything we believe in that a parent should mate with their biological child.

I do have sympathy for them, but it shouldnt be condoned.

You mean you think its wrong, just as some people think being gay is wrong?

If two people love each other, and are conscenting adults, how is that wrong?

by Eilzel Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:34 am

As gross as I think it is, I agree with didge and maddog that the state shouldn't punish incestuous relationships. Provide they remain childless they harm no one so what use is it?

That said, they have had a child, and so shown themselves as harmfully irresponsible. But, I have no idea what punishment fits here. They shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to have more children, and I strongly question whether they should be allowed to bring up the one they have.

by 'Wolfie Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:04 am

Eilzel wrote:
As gross as I think it is, I agree with didge and maddog that the state shouldn't punish incestuous relationships. Provide they remain childless they harm no one so what use is it?

That said, they have had a child, and so shown themselves as harmfully irresponsible. But, I have no idea what punishment fits here. They shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to have more children, and I strongly question whether they should be allowed to bring up the one they have.

I reckon their child should be permanently, forcibly if need be, removed and adopted out...

They have forfeited and abdicated any potential "parental rights" over their baby, through their irresponsible, socially unacceptable, and still illegal, reckless behaviour..

by nicko Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:59 pm

The Nazi's had much the same idea. Kidnapping Aryan looking children from non-German families and giving them to German parents.

by 'Wolfie Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:46 pm

nicko wrote:
The Nazi's had much the same idea. Kidnapping Aryan looking children from non-German families and giving them to German parents.

I fail to see the comparison there, nicko...

To me, the better comparison with should be with a child who has drug addicts, abusive parents, or maybe sexual predaotors as parents..

The best comparisons I would make to your nazi scenarios, would be with those British authorities who stole thousands of children during WWII, and shipped them off into servitude on farms, or even with paedo' groups; or maybe those Australian and American authorities who took native children and put them with white families to destroy their indigenous cultures.

by Syl Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:
Incest is wrong, it just goes against everything we believe in that a parent should mate with their biological child.

I do have sympathy for them, but it shouldnt be condoned.

You mean you think its wrong, just as some people think being gay is wrong?

If two people love each other, and are conscenting adults, how is that wrong?

There is no comparison between a gay relationship and an incestuous one. scratch

by magica Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:10 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

When it should win.

I have nothing against this pairing.

Who has?

Because they have been brought up on a diet of Christian-Judeo beliefs?

If they love it other, so be it. They woulod be stupid to plan a family based on the risks, but if they as adults make this choice? Who am I or anyone to deny them being in love?
Incest is wrong, it just goes against everything we believe in that a parent should mate with their biological child.

I do have sympathy for them, but it shouldnt be condoned.

I agree. It's against law and its socially so wrong on all levels.

by Original Quill Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:05 pm

Eilzel wrote:As gross as I think it is, I agree with didge and maddog that the state shouldn't punish incestuous relationships. Provide they remain childless they harm no one so what use is it?

That said, they have had a child, and so shown themselves as harmfully irresponsible. But, I have no idea what punishment fits here. They shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to have more children, and I strongly question whether they should be allowed to bring up the one they have.

My first instinct is the same. In response to gay marriage, we were adamant in stating (as the first line of defense) that it was nobody else's business. A variant of this perspective is the 'right to abortion' movement: It's a woman's body, not your business.

I have a hard time getting beyond this argument in this case. I'm personally repulsed, but it's none of my business.

by eddie Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:16 pm

I’m sort of with didge and Les in that you can’t punish people for having sex if it’s consensual.
I don’t think they should have their baby taken away either - the baby isn’t at risk, is it?

They might turn out to be the best parents in the world for all we know and stay together until one of them dies.

It’s yucky yes, but worth tearing up a family for? No.

by veya_victaous Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:31 pm

eddie wrote:I’m sort of with didge and Les in that you can’t punish people for having sex if it’s consensual.
I don’t think they should have their baby taken away either - the baby isn’t at risk, is it?

They might turn out to be the best parents in the world for all we know and stay together until one of them dies.

It’s yucky yes, but worth tearing up a family for? No.

Until he dumps her for the kid in 17 years Rolling Eyes

He Already Broke up a Family to fuck his daughter, So it's not a issue, it wasn't a concern for him.

I am 100% against this
for the same reason as a Teacher, doctor or any other person in a position of power over someone else can't.
it's a terrible precedent that opens all sorts of avenues for abuse

by Maddog Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:36 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
eddie wrote:I’m sort of with didge and Les in that you can’t punish people for having sex if it’s consensual.
I don’t think they should have their baby taken away either - the baby isn’t at risk, is it?

They might turn out to be the best parents in the world for all we know and stay together until one of them dies.

It’s yucky yes, but worth tearing up a family for? No.

Until he dumps her for the kid in 17 years

He Already Broke up a Family to fuck his daughter, So it's not a issue, it wasn't a concern for him.

I am 100% against this
for the same reason as a Teacher, doctor or any other person in a position of power over someone else can't.
it's a terrible precedent that opens all sorts of avenues for abuse

I'm against the idea, like I'm against 18 year olds marrying 80 year olds.

The question is, what do you want to do to them? Throw them both in prison and give away the child?

by Ben Reilly Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:04 pm

Okay, some thoughts. First thought -- he's a 42-year-old macking on an 18-year-old. So that makes me wonder about his character right there.

Second -- he KNEW she was his daughter. How can you still be attracted to her when you know you're her dad? That feels pretty fucked-up to me.

All that said, apparently they love each other and they're not hurting one another, so my instinct would be to leave them be -- but I do tend to think they shouldn't have any more kids. They're practically begging for one of them to come out a big ball of fingers.

by Raggamuffin Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:17 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, some thoughts. First thought -- he's a 42-year-old macking on an 18-year-old. So that makes me wonder about his character right there.

Second -- he KNEW she was his daughter. How can you still be attracted to her when you know you're her dad? That feels pretty fucked-up to me.

All that said, apparently they love each other and they're not hurting one another, so my instinct would be to leave them be -- but I do tend to think they shouldn't have any more kids. They're practically begging for one of them to come out a big ball of fingers.

She's as guilty as him though - she's an adult and she's having sex with her own father.

I don't know what anyone should do about it though - it seems a bit late to do anything really.

by Raggamuffin Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:20 pm

Eilzel wrote:As gross as I think it is, I agree with didge and maddog that the state shouldn't punish incestuous relationships. Provide they remain childless they harm no one so what use is it?

That said, they have had a child, and so shown themselves as harmfully irresponsible. But, I have no idea what punishment fits here. They shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to have more children, and I strongly question whether they should be allowed to bring up the one they have.

Why? Does the fact they're related make them bad parents?

by Guest Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:07 am

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

You mean you think its wrong, just as some people think being gay is wrong?

If two people love each other, and are conscenting adults, how is that wrong?

There is no comparison between a gay relationship and an incestuous one.

That is your belief, but again If two people love each other, and are conscenting adults, how is that wrong?

by Eilzel Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:40 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:As gross as I think it is, I agree with didge and maddog that the state shouldn't punish incestuous relationships. Provide they remain childless they harm no one so what use is it?

That said, they have had a child, and so shown themselves as harmfully irresponsible. But, I have no idea what punishment fits here. They shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to have more children, and I strongly question whether they should be allowed to bring up the one they have.

Why? Does the fact they're related make them bad parents?

They are clearly grossly irresponsible to be having kids in the first place-if that's anything to go by how can we expect them to be more responsible as parents?

Plus, what kind of psychological damage might it cause when the kid discovers it is a product of incest?

And what's to say the same won't happen again in the future?

by veya_victaous Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:14 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:As gross as I think it is, I agree with didge and maddog that the state shouldn't punish incestuous relationships. Provide they remain childless they harm no one so what use is it?

That said, they have had a child, and so shown themselves as harmfully irresponsible. But, I have no idea what punishment fits here. They shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to have more children, and I strongly question whether they should be allowed to bring up the one they have.

Why? Does the fact they're related make them bad parents?

well it does for him, having sex with your daughter is generally considered Bad parenting Suspect

by Original Quill Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:20 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why? Does the fact they're related make them bad parents?

well it does for him, having sex with your daughter is generally considered Bad parenting

It's unusual, I admit. But demonstration is a timeless pedagogical technique. Rolling Eyes

by Syl Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

There is no comparison between a gay relationship and an incestuous one.

That is your belief, but again If two people love each other, and are conscenting adults, how is that wrong?

Its not natural, interbreeding between close family members can cause all kinds of medical abnormalities.

Apart from all that, how a parent can have sex with the child they have created is just wrong on every level.

by Guest Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:56 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

That is your belief, but again If two people love each other, and are conscenting adults, how is that wrong?

Its not natural, interbreeding between close family members can cause all kinds of medical abnormalities.

Apart from all that, how a parent can have sex with the child they have created is just wrong on every level.

How is it not natural?

Many animals already do and history is littered with people having incest. In fact the law allows this with counsins

You do realize you are using the same poor arguments Tommy uses against homosexuality?

We are not talking about procreation, but love between two conscenting adults.

These two only just met also, and had no relationship as a child to father but only as adults.

by Guest Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:59 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why? Does the fact they're related make them bad parents?

They are clearly grossly irresponsible to be having kids in the first place-if that's anything to go by how can we expect them to be more responsible as parents?

Plus, what kind of psychological damage might it cause when the kid discovers it is a product of incest?

And what's to say the same won't happen again in the future?

What is everyone using arguments people use against gays?

How often have you heard, that if gay parents raise a child, that child with become gay or the damge done to the child?

by Vintage Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:55 pm

It certainly isn't the sole fault of Christian/Judeo teaching that there is a ban on incestuous relationships, it's taboo to some degree, in the majority of societies past and present, whether by law or custom, just because there are many instances through history doesn't make it right. Look what has happened in Royal houses were this took place.

by eddie Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:28 pm

I think there are two seperate issues here and one of them is about the child. I simply cannot see how removing that child from it’s loving mother can be right.

Woody Allen went off with his adopted daughter - whom he lived with and brought up as a daughter, I might add - and they’ve been together for years and years.

Is this any better, worse or the same?

by Original Quill Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:40 pm

Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn share no blood. Emotions and family roles aside, that makes it better.

In the present situation, you have the complication that in-breeding causes biological complications...if not in the first generation, then the second or third, etc.

But heck, genetic mutations can result in positive changes as well. Evolution is built on such changes.

by eddie Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn share no blood. Emotions and family roles aside, that makes it better.

In the present situation, you have the complication that in-breeding causes biological complications...if not in the first generation, then the second or third, etc.

But heck, genetic mutations can result in positive changes as well. Evolution is built on such changes.

Yes I know about in-breeding but my point was, woody Allen brought that girl up and lived with her, this guy didn’t despite being her biological father.
Just wondering which was worse?

by Original Quill Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:28 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn share no blood. Emotions and family roles aside, that makes it better.

In the present situation, you have the complication that in-breeding causes biological complications...if not in the first generation, then the second or third, etc.

But heck, genetic mutations can result in positive changes as well. Evolution is built on such changes.

Yes I know about in-breeding but my point was, woody Allen brought that girl up and lived with her, this guy didn’t despite being her biological father.
Just wondering which was worse?

I stand by my position. This is worse than the Woody Allen/Soon Yi connection because it is biological.

by Syl Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:

Yes I know about in-breeding but my point was, woody Allen brought that girl up and lived with her, this guy didn’t despite being her biological father.
Just wondering which was worse?

I stand by my position. This is worse than the Woody Allen/Soon Yi connection because it is biological.

I agree....what Woody Allen did was wrong on many levels, but like has been said, she wasn't his flesh and blood so there was no chance of any children having diseases or mental illnesses caised by genetic inbreeding.

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:33 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why? Does the fact they're related make them bad parents?

They are clearly grossly irresponsible to be having kids in the first place-if that's anything to go by how can we expect them to be more responsible as parents?

Plus, what kind of psychological damage might it cause when the kid discovers it is a product of incest?

And what's to say the same won't happen again in the future?

It might damage the kid if he/she is taken away from them as well.

by Syl Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:39 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

Its not natural, interbreeding between close family members can cause all kinds of medical abnormalities.

Apart from all that, how a parent can have sex with the child they have created is just wrong on every level.

How is it not natural?

Many animals already do and history is littered with people having incest. In fact the law allows this with counsins

You do realize you are using the same poor arguments Tommy uses against homosexuality?

We are not talking about procreation, but love between two conscenting adults.

These two only just met also, and had no relationship as a child to father but only as adults.

Of course it isn't natural, parents should parent their children, not have sex with them. Rolling Eyes

Some animals interbreed many don't, animals are guided by instinct, human beings posses morals and knowledge, a world where anything went sexually would be corrupt, riddled with disease and abnormalities, and frankly disgusting.

Cousins aren't forbidden to marry presently in the UK...this is the updated1986 list of blood relatives who cannot marry under any circumstances.

A woman may not marry her:

Father
Son
Grandfather
Grandson
Brother
Half Brother
Uncle
Half Uncle
Nephew
Half Nephew

A man may not marry his..

Mother
Daughter
Grandmother
Granddaughter
Sister
Half sister
Aunt
Half Aunt
Niece
Half Niece.

This will probably have to be revised now same sex marriage is allowed.

by eddie Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:02 pm

So, just to play devils advocate for a moment, are we saying that deformed or mentally impaired children aren’t welcome in the world?
Because many children are born that way without their parents being related.

Most of the points raised here are about the damage that may happen to a child of inbreeding.
So. Back to my original question.

by Raggamuffin Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:08 pm

Inbreeding problems are generally caused by recessive genes, but that can happen to any couple. What about a couple who has a child with a serious health condition because of recessive genes who then go on to have another child. Is that not irresponsible?

What about those who know they have inherited health conditions in their family - Huntington's for example? Are they irresponsible to have children?

by eddie Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Inbreeding problems are generally caused by recessive genes, but that can happen to any couple. What about a couple who has a child with a serious health condition because of recessive genes who then go on to have another child. Is that not irresponsible?

What about those who know they have inherited health conditions in their family - Huntington's for example? Are they irresponsible to have children?

Yes, that’s what I was saying.

by Syl Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:43 pm

eddie wrote:So, just to play devils advocate for a moment, are we saying that deformed or mentally impaired children aren’t welcome in the world?
Because many children are born that way without their parents being related.

Most of the points raised here are about the damage that may happen to a child of inbreeding.
So. Back to my original question.

That's not what I mean, if a child is born with a handicap it should be loved regardless of the difficulties, but interbreeding causes genetic disorders that need not happen otherwise.
Morally apart from physically its wrong ....its pretty sick that anyone thinks otherwise imo.

by eddie Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:46 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:So, just to play devils advocate for a moment, are we saying that deformed or mentally impaired children aren’t welcome in the world?
Because many children are born that way without their parents being related.

Most of the points raised here are about the damage that may happen to a child of inbreeding.
So. Back to my original question.

That's not what I mean, if a child is born with a handicap it should be loved regardless of the difficulties, but interbreeding causes genetic disorders that need not happen otherwise.
Morally apart from physically its wrong ....its pretty sick that anyone thinks otherwise imo.

I don’t like the thought of it either. I’m not saying there’s anything morally right about the whole thing....but!
I really don’t think removing a child from its natural parents is a good idea, ever, unless it is under direct physical and/or mental threat.

by Syl Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:48 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:

That's not what I mean, if a child is born with a handicap it should be loved regardless of the difficulties, but interbreeding causes genetic disorders that need not happen otherwise.
Morally apart from physically its wrong ....its pretty sick that anyone thinks otherwise imo.

I don’t like the thought of it either. I’m not saying there’s anything morally right about the whole thing....but!
I really don’t think removing a child from its natural parents is a good idea, ever, unless it is under direct physical and/or mental threat.

I think the welfare of the child has to come first.
Maybe it would be better to keep it in the home with the mother and father....its complicated.

by Victorismyhero Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:51 pm

The human race is fucked
We allow and indeed empower those with known serious genetic defects to breed and now it seems some are out to quadruple the chance of genetic implosion by allowing incestuous breeding.

Lets not be coy here not so many years ago the severely genetically affected would either not survive to breed or if they did would be outcasts and thus not breed (speaking in general....obviously there, were exceptions)

Now.line breeding ...(as it is actually known) can in some cases be used to eliminate an undesireable trait...but this requires the proviso that any offspring NOT clear of the defect are prevented from breeding,by one means or another.But in general it is highly undesireable as a general course of things since indiscriminate line breeding acts in the opposite manner to fix malformations etc into ca population by increasing the prevalence of carriers of those recessive genes.

Now as a general matter of principle I have NO moralobjection to an incestuous relationship (since we no longer rely on tribal stability to function as a society,which is the other objection that makes sense in some cases) BUT it seems to me that for the good og humankind we should insist that those who wish to proceed with such a relationship MUST be required ( compelled even) to be rendered incapable of breeding

by Syl Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:00 pm

Incest between close family members, Mother or father with adult child, sister and brother, is wrong...end of.

I don't care if people assume the taboo its caused from conditioning or brain washing, I assume that people who find it acceptable are unhinged.

Viva la difference.

by magica Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:08 pm

I agree Syl. It's not acceptable, and I feel for the baby. As much as I don't agree, I don't want the baby to be taken away.

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