Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week

by Guest Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:09 am

Trump may order US embassy moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem Wednesday

That would give Israel's claim to the entire city de facto US recognition

Israel claims all of Jerusalem as its capital; Palestinians also claim it as theirs

At present the world does not officially recognize Israel's claim to East Jerusalem

It took that section of the city after a war with a group of Arab states in 1965

US presidents have kept the embassy in Tel Aviv to avoid recognizing the claim

Recognition will infuriate the Arabs, and undo attempts to broker peace

But the final decision has not yet been made, officials have claimed

Donald Trump is likely to announce next week that the United States recognizes Jerusalem, not Tel Aviv, as Israel's capital, a senior official has said - potentially causing chaos in the Middle East.

Trump may make the declaration on Wednesday, the senior member of the administration told Reuters.

If he does, it will deal a serious blow to the Middle East peace protest.

Jerusalem - which contains sites holy to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths - is claimed as the capital of both the state of Israel and a proposed Palestinian state.

The international community doesn't recognize the Palestinian claim and does not recognize Israel's claim to section sections of the city that it annexed from Palestine following the 1967 Middle East War.

But in 1995, a law was passed declaring that the US embassy be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Every president since then has signed a waver every six months to put off that transfer, in the hope of not further widening the rifts that exist in the region.

Instead, they have said, Jerusalem's status must be decided only in negotiations.

Trump pledged on the presidential campaign trail last year that he would move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

But in June he waived the requirement, saying he wanted to 'maximize the chances' for a new US-led push for what he has called the 'ultimate deal' of Israeli-Palestinian peace.

Those efforts have made little, if any, progress so far and many experts are skeptical of the prospects for success.

Now, the possibility that Trump may take this chance to bestow US recognition on Israel's claim has upset many Arab leaders in the surrounding region.

It could also unravel the US administration's fledgling diplomatic effort, led by Trump's son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner, to restart long-stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace talks and enlist the support of the US's Arab allies.

Nabil Abu Rdainah, spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said America's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital would 'destroy the peace process' and 'destabilize the region.'

And while visiting Washington this week, Jordan's King Abdullah warned lawmakers that moving the embassy could be 'exploited by terrorists to stoke anger, frustration and desperation,' according to the Jordanian state news agency Petra.

Such a move, however, could help satisfy the pro-Israel, right-wing base - particularly evangelical Christians - that helped Trump win the presidency. It would also please the Israeli government, a close US ally.

And some of Trump's top aides have privately pushed for him to keep his campaign promise for that reason

The senior US official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said details were still being finalized and could still change.

Another American official also said Trump appeared to be heading toward recognizing Israel's claim to Jerusalem but that it was not a done deal.

We've nothing to announce,' said a spokesperson with the White House National Security Council.

Trump is reportedly weighing in personally in the intense internal deliberations, a White House aide said.

Despite the short-term gains to be had for him, he may still stick with the established program and sign a waiver keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv for another six months.

But seeking to temper his supporters' concerns, another option under consideration is for him to order his aides to develop a longer-term plan for the embassy's relocation, to make clear his intent to do so eventually, the officials said.

It was unclear, however, whether any public recognition by Trump of Israel's claim on Jerusalem would be formally enshrined in a presidential action or be more of a symbolic statement.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5137481/Trump-likely-recognize-Jerusalem-Israels-capital-week-official.html

by Guest Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Palestinian Authority said the peace process will end and sought an emergency meeting of the Arab League. launched its own diplomatic campaign, while Hamas threatened a renewed intifada, and Jordan said it would strengthen terror groups.

I hope Trump does not sign the waiver.

I mean, look how violent the Arab world is, that they cannot allow for a city, that has over 3,000 years of Jewish history, to rightly be the capital of Israel.

They instead, based on Arabization, thus arab colonialism, think the land belongs to the Arabs. If any European made such claims to lands in South Africa, the world would be screaming Aparthied.

Which is ironic, being that the West Bank and Gaza under the Palestinian authority, are Judenrein.

Its time the world stopped pandering to Islamic extremists

by Guest Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pm

God emperor trump Carries out the divine plan to restore Jerusalem to noble Israel.

No two state solution

No peace for terrorist Palestine

by 'Wolfie Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:32 pm

by Guest Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:03 pm

'Jerusalem IS Israel's capital': I will move our embassy there AND make peace with the Palestinians says Trump as he defies the world's warning he will set the Middle East on fire with dramatic change of policy

Fake President Trump announced Wednesday that America formally recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital city, changing decades of U.S. policy in a brief afternoon speech and casting the move as a bid to preserve, not derail, aspirations for regional peace.

Appearing in the White House's Diplomatic Reception Room against an elaborate backdrop of Christmas decorations, He also said the United States embassy in Israel would, over time, be moved there from Tel Aviv.

Israel is the only country where the United States has an embassy in a city that the host nation does not consider its capital.

'I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel,' Trump said. 'While previous presidents have made this a major campaign promise, they failed to deliver. Today I am delivering.'

'When I came into office I promised to look at the world's challenges with open eyes and very fresh thinking,' he said, leaning heavily on a mid-1990s federal law that demanded the embassy's relocation.

'We have declined to acknowledge any Israeli capital – at all,' Trump added. 'But today we finally acknowledge the obvious, that Jerusalem is Israel's capital. This is nothing more or less than a recognition of reality.'

'It is also the right thing to do. It is something that has to be done.'

Every president since Bill Clinton has exercised a waiver in the Jerusalem Embassy Act, effectively kicking the can down the road. Trump said that has brought the world 'no closer to a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.'

A major theme in Trump's unprecedented statement was his claim that it shouldn't interfere with longer-term peace negotiations between Israeli and Palestinian leaders.

But the Palestine Liberation Organization said after his speech that it had destroyed hopes for a two-state solution.

The terror group Hamas said Trump had opened 'the gates of hell.'

'This decision is not intended in any way to reflect a departure from our strong commitment to facilitate a lasting peace agreement,' the president insisted. 'We want an agreement that is a great deal for the Israelis and a great deal for the Palestinians.'

'We are not taking a position of any final status issues, including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem or the resolution of contested borders,' he continued.

Those questions are up to the parties involved. The United States remains deeply committed to helping facilitate a peace agreement that is acceptable to both sides. I intend to do everything in my power to help forge such an agreement.'

Trump said the United States will continue to support a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian standoff, 'if agreed to by both sides.'

'In the meantime, I call on all parties to maintain the status quo at Jerusalem's holy sites,' he said.

'Jerusalem is today, and must remain, a place where Jews pray at the Western Wall, where Christians walk the Stations of the Cross and where Muslims pray at Al-Aqsa Mosque,' Trump added.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called Trump's policy shift 'historic' and quickly pledged to continue giving Muslims and Christians access to their sacred places in Jerusalem's Old City.

Trump insisted that ordering a move of the embassy's location would 'immediately begin the process of hiring architects, engineers and planners so that a new embassy, when completed, will be a magnificent tribute to peace.'

America's friends and foes unleashed fierce criticism before Trump made official what the White House previewed for reporters Tuesday night.

But Trump stuck to his guns, calling his decision an act of political courage.

The president previewed his 'big announcement' during a cabinet meeting, which he said concerns 'Israel and the Palestinians in the Middle East. And I think it's long overdue.'

'Many presidents have said they want to do something, and they didn't do it. Whether it's through courage or they change their mind I can't tell you. But a lot of people have said we have to do something, and they didn't do it.'

A senior administration official said Tuesday that the president's decision to move the embassy in the long term 'is a recognition of reality.'

While Israel welcomed the news, Palestinian officials declared the Mideast peace process 'finished' and Turkey announced it would host a meeting of Islamic nations next week to give Muslim countries' leaders an opportunity to coordinate a response.

In Gaza, U.S. and Israeli flags were burned and in the West Bank Hamas declared Friday a 'day of rage,' raising the specter of mass violence in the occupied territories.

Israeli security forces braced for violence as well.

The Pope made a plea for Trump to rethink urgently and spoke out at his weekly general audience in Rome .

'I make a heartfelt appeal so that all commit themselves to respecting the status quo of the city, in conformity with the pertinent resolutions of the United Nations,' Pope Francis said.

The Roman Catholic Pontiff told thousands of people at his general audience: 'I cannot keep quiet about my deep concern about the situation that has been created in the last few days.'

A Turkish government spokesman said that the move will plunge the region and the world into 'a fire with no end in sight.'

In the UK Prime Minister Theresa May said she would challenge the country's closest ally.

'I'm intending to speak to President Trump about this matter,' May told MPs.

'Our position has not changed, it has been a long standing one and it is also a very clear one.

'It is that the status of Jerusalem should be determined in a negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and Jerusalem should ultimately form a shared capital between the Israeli and Palestinian states.'

The harsh global reaction cast questions about the feasibility of a brewing U.S. peace plan that is expected to be presented by the White House in the near future.

Trump would effectively be making a declaration of war, the Palestinians' chief representative to Britain said Wednesday before the president's speech.

'If he says what he is intending to say about Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, it means a kiss of death to the two-state solution,' Manuel Hassassian said in a BBC radio interview.

'He is declaring war in the Middle East, he is declaring war against 1.5 billion Muslims [and] hundreds of millions of Christians that are not going to accept the holy shrines to be totally under the hegemony of Israel,' Hassassian added.

The Palestinians seek east Jerusalem as the capital of a future independent state and fear that Trump's declaration essentially imposes on them a disastrous solution for one of the core issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

'There is no way that there can be talks with the Americans. The peace process is finished. They have already pre-empted the outcome,' said Palestinian official Hanan Ashrawi. 'They cannot take us for granted.'

The U.S. decision 'destroys the peace process,' added Palestinian Prime Minister Rami Hamdallah. Top Palestinian officials were meeting Wednesday to plot their course forward.

Congressional leaders on the Republican side of the aisle were overwhelmingly supportive in Washington on Wednesday.

'This is a day that is long overdue,' said Republican Speaker of the House Paul Ryan.

'Jerusalem has been, and always will be, the eternal, undivided capital of the State of Israel.'

But Democrats were openly critical.

Trump's decision 'comes at the wrong time and unnecessarily inflames the region,' Sen. Mark Warner of Virginia insisted.

'This announcement upends long-standing U.S. policy and international agreements that the status of Jerusalem should be determined as part of a peace settlement between Israel and the Palestinians, not unilaterally.'

Moving the embassy will be a long process.

'This will be a matter of some years. It won't be immediate, it won't be months, it won't be quick,' a senior administration official said Tuesday night.

'For instance,' he said, 'the United States was looking at moving out of Grosvenor Square in London for a long, long time. And I think that took something like eight years to get done and will be done in early 2018.'

'It is a practicable impossibility to move the embassy tomorrow,' another official said. 'There are about 1,000 personnel in the embassy in Tel Aviv. There is no facility they can move into in Jerusalem, as of today.'

'It will take some time to find a site, address security concerns, design a new facility, fund a new facility – working with Congress, obviously – and build it. So this is not an instantaneous process.'

Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said on Facebook that '[o]ur historical national identity is receiving important expressions every day.'

Other members of his cabinet were more forthcoming. Education Minister Naftali Bennett, head of the nationalist Jewish Home party, praised what he called Trump's 'bold and yet natural' move.

'The sooner the Arab world recognizes Jerusalem as our capital, the sooner we will reach real peace. Real peace that is not predicated on an illusion that we are going to carve up Jerusalem and carve up Israel,' Bennett told The Associated Press on the sidelines of the Jerusalem Post Diplomatic Conference.

The Family Research Council, an American evangelical Christian group, was enthusiastic.

'America's foreign policy, as it pertains to Israel, is coming into alignment with this biblical truth: Jerusalem is the eternal and indivisible capital of the Jewish state,' the group's president Tony Perkins said.

International leaders, however, swiftly criticized Trump's plan.

China, which has good ties with Israel and the Palestinians, expressed concerns over 'possible aggravation of regional tensions.'

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said during a news briefing that the status of Jerusalem was a complicated and sensitive issue and China was concerned the U.S. decision 'could sharpen regional conflict.'

'All parties should do more for the peace and tranquility of the region, behave cautiously, and avoid impacting the foundation for resolving the long-standing Palestine issue and initiating new hostility in the region,' Geng said.

Russia, a key Mideast player, expressed its concern about a 'possible deterioration.'

Two leading Lebanese newspapers published front-page rebukes of Trump.

Britain's Foreign Minister, Boris Johnson, who had already expressed concern about the U.S. decision, on Wednesday said it was now time for the Americans to present their peace plan for the region.

'Jerusalem obviously should be part of the final settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians - a negotiated settlement that we want to see,' Johnson said.

'We have no plans ourselves to move our embassy.'

In Brussels Secretary of State Rex Tillerson tried to dampen down the reaction.

'The president is very committed to the Middle East peace process,' Tillerson told reporters at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels.

He said a small team led by Trump's son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner - a 36-year-old former property developer - has been 'engaged in a quiet way' in the region to try to revive peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

'We continue to believe there is a very good opportunity for peace to be achieved and the president has a team that is devoted to that entirely,' Tillerson said.

Trump's Mideast team have spent months meeting with Israeli, Palestinian and Arab leaders. Details of their long awaited plan remain a mystery.

'Clearly this is a decision that makes it more important than ever that the long-awaited American proposals on the Middle East peace process are now brought forward,' Johnson told reporters in Brussels.

In his speech, Trump was expected to instruct the State Department to begin the multi-year process of moving the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to the holy city. It remained unclear, however, when he might take that physical step, which is required by U.S. law but has been waived on national security grounds for more than two decades.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5152783/Trump-officially-recognizes-Jerusalem-Israels-capital.html

by Guest Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:03 pm

by Guest Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:04 pm

has any man ever been more presidential??

by 'Wolfie Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
has any man ever been more presidential??

Oh, just every preceding POTUS in America's history...

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week 3489511464

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:52 pm

It doesn't matter.

by Guest Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:It doesn't matter.

it does matter, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel

this is massive.

tomorrow is Friday and the Muslims will kick off, the Israelis will smash them back into their box where they belong and they can get on with reclaiming Jerusalem.

this is Trump at his very best, under Muslim-in-chief Obama, the Muslim world went berserk because he was on their side, hundreds of thousands died.

Times have changed, there is anew sheriff in town and the Muslim jihadis will learn their place, Israel will show them.

at the very least this is a breath of fresh air in the peace process, nothing else has worked, now this is done and dusted, the "Palestinians" will have no option but to deal with teh new reality

its a great day quill you should be celebrating

by Guest Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:00 pm

No, Trump Verifying That Jerusalem Is Israel's Capital Won't Be The Cause Of Violence. Muslim Anti-Semitism Will. Here's The Proof.

Despite the fact that the Senate recently voted unanimously to recognize Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel — a bill co-sponsored by 17 senators, including Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) — media and religious figures have emerged from the woodwork to condemn the Trump administration for the supposedly precipitous step of announcing just that fact. And it is a fact: Jerusalem has always been and will always be the eternal capital of the Jewish people and Israel, the site of the Temple Mount and the place where Jacob was informed by God, “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying… All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.”

The president’s decision to verify what Congress has made law since 1995, and to recognize a reality that’s been true for several thousand years, shouldn’t be all that controversial. But it is, largely thanks to misinformation put out by enemies of Israel, who suggest that to say true things amounts to provocation of violence.

Here’s the reality: recognizing the unification of Jerusalem under Israeli authority isn’t what causes violence between Israel and its neighboring Muslim enemies. It’s the anti-Semitic religious fervor of Israel’s neighboring Muslim enemies. That’s been true since before there was a State of Israel, and before Israel controlled Jerusalem.

Here’s a brief history of violence and Jerusalem.

1929. Conflict began in British Mandate Palestine after Jews made the “provocative” move of bringing chairs for the elderly and the infirm to the Western Wall for prayer purposes. In October 1928, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem decided to build atop the Temple Mount, and purposefully led mules through the Western Wall area, excreting in the holy area to spite the Jews. All of this led to a Jewish march to the wall in August 1929. The next day, Muslims marched to the wall to show their sovereignty, even though the Western Wall isn’t holy to Muslims. The following day, Arabs stabbed a Jew to death in the city. By August 23, Muslims were rioting across Jerusalem. 17 Jews were murdered and a hospital was attacked in the city in Jerusalem itself. In Hebron, Arabs massacred more than 60 Jews.

The British Shaw report described the events thusly: “Arabs in Hebron made a most ferocious attack on the Jewish ghetto and on isolated Jewish houses lying outside the crowded quarters of the town. More than 60 Jews – including many women and children – were murdered and more than 50 were wounded.” Remember, this was long before Israel existed or Jerusalem was in Jewish hands. There were also anti-Jewish riots in 1920 and in the 1930s.

1948. Israel’s creation was supposed to lead to a peaceful coexistence in Jerusalem. Instead, Arabs cut off all roads to Jerusalem and prevented Jews from reaching the city, blockading the inhabitants inside. Thousands of Israelis died attempting to reach their brethren in Jerusalem. The outcome: the split of the city between West Jerusalem, which did not include the Western Wall, and East Jerusalem, controlled by Jordan. Under Muslim rule, Jews were not able to visit Jewish holy sites; under Jewish rule, Muslims were. Muslims used gravestones from the Jewish cemetery Mount of Olives to pave their roads. During this period, while East Jerusalem was fully controlled by Muslims, the Palestine Liberation Organization (later the Palestinian Authority) was formed. It openly stated that its goal was the destruction of the State of Israel. Remember, this is before Israel controlled Jerusalem.

1967. Israel wins control of Jerusalem and unifies the city. Muslims are not just granted access to holy sites, the Islamic Waqf is given full control over the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism. Jews are still forbidden from praying at the Temple Mount to this day, despite Israel’s sovereignty over the site.

1993. In the Oslo Accords, Israel agreed to negotiate with the terrorist Palestinian Authority over a future Palestinian state. In return, the PA stated that it would acknowledge Israel’s right to exist (it never has) and cease violence (it never has). The Oslo Accords never made any statement about transfer of Jerusalem to Muslim rule. Despite that fact, the number of terrorist attacks on Israel dramatically increased in the aftermath of Oslo, with 27 Israelis murdered in October 1994 alone through Muslim terrorism.

2000. At the Camp David summit, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, of the Labor Party, offered Palestinian terrorist leader Yasser Arafat control over East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount itself. That’s according to Bill Clinton. Arafat refused the deal and walked away from the table without a counteroffer, then used Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount as a pretext to begin a terrorist wave that would result in the deaths of hundreds of Jews from terrorism (I was in Israel during the Second Intifada, and remember walking by the remains of murdered Jews in a Sbarro pizzeria).

2008. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered new Palestinian terrorist dictator Mahmoud Abbas — a man who was working hand in glove with Palestinian terrorist group Hamas — international control of Jerusalem’s Old City, which includes the holy sites. Olmert stated, “Remember my words, it will be 50 years before there will be another Israeli prime minister that will offer you what I am offering you now. Don’t miss this opportunity.” Olmert also offered near-complete withdrawal from Judea and Samaria, with retention of just 6.3% of the territory for existing settlement blocs, and even agreed to hand over Israeli land equivalent to 5.8% of the territory, as well as a land bridge between Judea and Samaria and the Gaza Strip. Abbas turned it down, and launched another round of violence instead in coordination with Hamas in Gaza. Incessant Muslim terrorism against Jews in Jerusalem has not ceased.

So no, sovereignty over Jerusalem has nothing to do with increased Muslim violence. Muslims in the region will not tolerate Israel’s existence; Jerusalem is just a convenient proxy issue for that inconvenient fact. Muslims launched violence against Jews in Jerusalem for the sin of visiting Jewish holy sites long before Israel existed; they pushed for Israel’s annihilation long before Israel had control over Jerusalem; they have turned down multiple peace offers including division of Jerusalem and opted for violence instead.

Don’t believe the lie that anti-Semitic Muslim regimes and populations require the pretext of Israeli sovereignty over the eternal capital of the Jewish people in order to excuse violence. They don’t, and they never have.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/24370/no-trump-verifying-jerusalem-israels-capital-wont-ben-shapiro

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:59 pm

sb wrote:it does matter, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel

this is massive.

It doesn't matter because the Divided States doesn't matter. Once you step down, you're just part of the noise.

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:07 pm

Moving the capitol to Jerusalem is a meaningless gesture, and further in the Divided States showing it's real colors. I predicted the end of the any peace when PM Benjamin Netanyahu was reelected in 2015. In his interview with NRG news website, Netanyahu was asked whether no Palestinian state would emerge if he remains Israel’s leader. “Indeed,” he replied.

Mr. Netanyahu effectively confirmed that as long as he remains Israel’s prime minister he won’t allow the creation of a Palestinian state. The words came a day before the parliamentary election.

To realize only now that the Divided States' attempts to negotiate a peace were rigged, is too little/too late. They've always been rigged.

by Guest Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:Moving the capitol to Jerusalem is a meaningless gesture, and further in the Divided States showing it's real colors. I predicted the end of the any peace when PM Benjamin Netanyahu was reelected in 2015. In his interview with NRG news website, Netanyahu was asked whether no Palestinian state would emerge if he remains Israel’s leader. “Indeed,” he replied.

Mr. Netanyahu effectively confirmed that as long as he remains Israel’s prime minister he won’t allow the creation of a Palestinian state. The words came a day before the parliamentary election.

To realize only now that the Divided States' attempts to negotiate a peace were rigged, is too little/too late. They've always been rigged.

It was never going to work.

This was never about land and sovereignty, it was about about religious Islamic hatred of the Jewish people.

Palestinians have had dozens of opportunities for peace but each and every time they chose war.

The system was indeed rigged, against Israel,but now the tide has turned now Israel has the moral high ground and can hopefully force the Palestinians into a corner where they have no house but to disarm

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:09 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Moving the capitol to Jerusalem is a meaningless gesture, and further in the Divided States showing it's real colors. I predicted the end of the any peace when PM Benjamin Netanyahu was reelected in 2015. In his interview with NRG news website, Netanyahu was asked whether no Palestinian state would emerge if he remains Israel’s leader. “Indeed,” he replied.

Mr. Netanyahu effectively confirmed that as long as he remains Israel’s prime minister he won’t allow the creation of a Palestinian state. The words came a day before the parliamentary election.

To realize only now that the Divided States' attempts to negotiate a peace were rigged, is too little/too late. They've always been rigged.

It was never going to work.

This was never about land and sovereignty, it was about about religious Islamic hatred of the Jewish people.

Palestinians have had dozens of opportunities for peace but each and every time they chose war.

The system was indeed rigged, against Israel,but now the tide has turned now Israel has the moral high ground and can hopefully force the Palestinians into a corner where they have no house but to disarm

No choice? You've got 1.6-billion Muslims in the world...and more importantly, they are all having children. Force is not the answer. It will only result in perpetual war.

by nicko Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:37 pm

Quill, your a "Conchie" !

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:08 pm

nicko wrote:Quill, your a "Conchie" !

Not really. I don't object to war; I just object to not recognizing you are in one...or heading into one with no apparent purpose.

I believe after the falsehoods that were told to the American public to get us into the Iraq war, that it will not stand for going into another one. If someone want's to try lying to start a war again, they will pay the price.

It's a good place to be. I'm tired of all my tax money going to foreign adventures, for which we also have to pick up the clean-up expenses. It's the tail wagging the dog. We give the generals so much money, they have to spend it somewhere. So they direct policy to a place where they will start a war. You see that happening right now with North Korea and the middle east.

We need only a slight adjustment in ideology to divert all that money into a beneficial healthcare program. Now, that's where I'm at. If you want to call me a healthcare apostle, count me in.

by Guest Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:46 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

It was never going to work.

This was never about land and sovereignty, it was about about religious Islamic hatred of the Jewish people.

Palestinians have had dozens of opportunities for peace but each and every time they chose war.

The system was indeed rigged, against Israel,but now the tide has turned now Israel has the moral high ground and can hopefully force the Palestinians into a corner where they have no house but to disarm

No choice? You've got 1.6-billion Muslims in the world...and more importantly, they are all having children. Force is not the answer. It will only result in perpetual war.

no it wont

are you suggesting sexy mama is going to pick up a rifle and start killing Jews just because she is a Muslim and Israel has taken Jerusalem??

she doesn't strike me as a murderer.

i am not sure you liberals realize just how casually racist and Islamophobic you guys are, you've just suggested that all 1.6 billion Muslims are unthinking clones who will just all move as one against Israel

its the same insulting argument you guys use when you're trying to defend Islamic scripture. "if Islam promoted war then we would be at war with 1.6 billion Muslims"

good going with the ole tar brush there quill.

do you ever stop to think that maybe some of those 1.6 billion Muslims arent that bothered??

do you even know why Muslims what Jerusalem??

i doubt it

maybe elizel got it wrong when he said i hate ALL Muslims, maybe he meant you??

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:28 pm

sb wrote:no it wont

Dream on. They already are waging war.

Do you think with 1.6-billion people, and climbing, they are just going to lay down and kiss Israel's ass? It only took 19-men to bring down the World Trade Center. What do you think 1.6-billion of them can do?

by Guest Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
sb wrote:no it wont

Dream on. They already are waging war.

Do you think with 1.6-billion people, and climbing, they are just going to lay down and kiss Israel's ass? It only took 19-men to bring down the World Trade Center. What do you think 1.6-billion of them can do?

Nothing

Because they have done nothing

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:48 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Dream on. They already are waging war.

Do you think with 1.6-billion people, and climbing, they are just going to lay down and kiss Israel's ass? It only took 19-men to bring down the World Trade Center. What do you think 1.6-billion of them can do?

Nothing

Because they have done nothing

How many attacks has Britain alone had in 2016?

by Guest Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:18 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

Nothing

Because they have done nothing

How many attacks has Britain alone had in 2016?

Too many, but that has more to do with Britain and it's useless government and politicised police force than any kind of actual professionalism on the behalf of Abdullah.

Anyway what's your point?? The UK is still here after absorbing those attacks, we haven't been conquered yet.

Israel is NOT the UK, they don't fuck around,they shoot terrorists dead, they don't reward and bribe them.

by Original Quill Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:37 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

How many attacks has Britain alone had in 2016?

Too many, but that has more to do with Britain and it's useless government and politicised police force than any kind of actual professionalism on the behalf of Abdullah.

Anyway what's your point?? The UK is still here after absorbing those attacks, we haven't been conquered yet.

Israel is NOT the UK, they don't fuck around,they shoot terrorists dead, they don't reward and bribe them.

My point was as I stated: perpetual war. Pay attention.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:04 am

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

It was never going to work.

This was never about land and sovereignty, it was about about religious Islamic hatred of the Jewish people.

Palestinians have had dozens of opportunities for peace but each and every time they chose war.

The system was indeed rigged, against Israel,but now the tide has turned now Israel has the moral high ground and can hopefully force the Palestinians into a corner where they have no house but to disarm

No choice? You've got 1.6-billion Muslims in the world...and more importantly, they are all having children. Force is not the answer. It will only result in perpetual war.

So you are claiming something is wrong with all Muslims now?

I doubt many Muslims will care. Even more so when their own Quran states the lands belong to the Jews, but its interesting that so many people pander to fear.

I mean do you pander to a child having a tantrum, not getting his or her own way?

It seems the world is in perpetual fear due to the reality, that some Muslims will commit to violence, everytime they feel offended or do not get their way.

I do not see 2 billion Christians threatening to commit violence over this. Do you? Yet Jerusalem, as some of the most holiest places in Christianity.

So why do people always seem to allow some Muslims to have tantrums, when they do not get their way?

The Palestinians have had a chance to have a state 5 times and 6 if you include the fact they were given already 78% of the British Mandate in Jordan. They were still not happy with this mass of land and many living there. Still moved to where Jews had made the rest prosperous. That is irony. Many Arabs, would not even have been living there, if not for the ingenuity of the Jews.

The world has to stop pandering to the demands of the Palestian Authority, you continually keep this problem going.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:09 am

Original Quill wrote:
sb wrote:no it wont

Dream on. They already are waging war.

Do you think with 1.6-billion people, and climbing, they are just going to lay down and kiss Israel's ass? It only took 19-men to bring down the World Trade Center. What do you think 1.6-billion of them can do?

And after 70 years, continually Muslim nations, who out number Israel by millions, have been constantly and resoundedly beaten. So why is it millions cannot defeat Israel?

by Original Quill Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:06 am

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Dream on. They already are waging war.

Do you think with 1.6-billion people, and climbing, they are just going to lay down and kiss Israel's ass? It only took 19-men to bring down the World Trade Center. What do you think 1.6-billion of them can do?

And after 70 years, continually Muslim nations, who out number Israel by millions, have been constantly and resoundedly beaten. So why is it millions cannot defeat Israel?

They battle in a different way. As John Keegan documents, Muslims have two things that make them a formidable fighting force: 1) an undying ideology; and 2) a peck and avoid strategy.

What ISIS is doing in Northern Iraq and Syria is very rare for an Arab fighting force. They rarely fight in the European way, with confrontational, single and final battle. But mark my word, they will be there forever.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:13 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

And after 70 years, continually Muslim nations, who out number Israel by millions, have been constantly and resoundedly beaten. So why is it millions cannot defeat Israel?

They battle in a different way. As John Keegan says, Muslims have two things that make them a formidable fighting force: 1) an undying ideology; and 3) a peck and avoid strategy. What ISIS is doing is very rare for an Arab fighting force. They rarely fight in the European way, with a single and final battle. But mark my word, it will be forever.

Which shows you have no comprehension of the terrorism that Israel has always faced and dealt with.
Everytime, Israel stands defiant.
They tried to defeat Israel militarily and failed.
The Arabs have tried to defeat Israel economically and failed.
They have tried to defeat Israel politically and failed
They have tried to destroy it psychologically with suicide bombings, car rammings, stabbings, bombings and shootings and have failed.
What ISIS does has gone on for centuries, you just fail to know your history or the fact that Israel simply fights terrorism better than the rest

You see, what you fail to see, is that Jews have faced time and again being persecuted and being on the end of an extermination plan to wipe them out, which they still face today. You thus place Jews elevated above the fear of death, that you see within Muslim terrorists. That Jews are not afraid to die to protect their home and people.

by Original Quill Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:27 am

Didge wrote:They tried to defeat Israel Miltarily and failed.
The Arabs have tried to defeat Israel economically and failed.
They have tried to defeat Israel politically and failed
They have tried to destroy it physchologicall with suicide bombings, car rammings, stabbings, bombings and shootings and have failed.

They haven't failed. They are just not done yet.

Israel fights in the European way. Agincourt. Battle of Bosworth. Trafalgar. Waterloo. Single, confrontational battles, based upon holding territory. And look what Israel covets: territory.

Arabs play hit and run...as Keegan notes, much like Mao's endless war. See, Mao Tse-tung, On Protracted War (1938). You saw what it did to the Americans in Vietnam. Israel will be at it 100-years from now, if they can survive without American support.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:34 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:They tried to defeat Israel Miltarily and failed.
The Arabs have tried to defeat Israel economically and failed.
They have tried to defeat Israel politically and failed
They have tried to destroy it physchologicall with suicide bombings, car rammings, stabbings, bombings and shootings and have failed.

They haven't failed. They are just not done yet.

Israel fights in the European way. Agincourt. Battle of Bosworth. Trafalgar. Waterloo. Single, confrontational battles, based upon holding territory. And look what Israel covets: territory.

Arabs play hit and run...as Keegan notes, much like Mao's endless war. See, Mao Tse-tung, On Protracted War (1938). You saw what it did to the Americans in Vietnam. Israel will be at it 100-years from now, if they can survive without American support.

And again the Arabs have consistantly failed and lost.

70 years of failures, shows how inept their tactics are. They rely on fear and it falls flat against a people that has nothing to lose, when faced with annihilation. That is what you fail to grasp and the end game is not a good one for the Arabs. If it came down to it and Israel faced extinction and were being overrun, they would take out most of the Arab world with Nukes.

So they can easily survive, as they did originally without US support. How do you think they won the first Arab war? The reaily is, Israel could blow back to the stone ages, many of the Arab nations, but chooses not to, because it shows it is morally and ethically better as a people. It even goes out of its way to warn the enemy of an impending attack, in order that civillians can evacuate. Thus giving the advantage to the enemy. An enemy that is quite happy to use its civillians as humans shields and still the Arabs end up losing. The reality is, that if Israel was disarmed, then it would be overun, but you never ask the important questions do you.

Why is it that the Arabs, cannot live with others in peace, where western nations have moved past previous hate they had with each other?

Israel has even given up lands gain in conflicts for peace and yet the Arabs, cannot even or want to have neighbours being able to govern themselves

You see, you even argue, as if there is something inherantly wrong with Muslims and Arabs, which goes back to my original point.

I doubt many Muslims will care. Even more so when their own Quran states the lands belong to the Jews, but its interesting that so many people pander to fear.

I mean do you pander to a child having a tantrum, not getting his or her own way?

It seems the world is in perpetual fear due to the reality, that some Muslims will commit to violence, everytime they feel offended or do not get their way.

I do not see 2 billion Christians threatening to commit violence over this. Do you? Yet Jerusalem, as some of the most holiest places in Christianity.

So why do people always seem to allow some Muslims to have tantrums, when they do not get their way?

The Palestinians have had a chance to have a state 5 times and 6 if you include the fact they were given already 78% of the British Mandate in Jordan. They were still not happy with this mass of land and many living there. Still moved to where Jews had made the rest prosperous. That is irony. Many Arabs, would not even have been living there, if not for the ingenuity of the Jews.

The world has to stop pandering to the demands of the Palestian Authority, you continually keep this problem going.

by Original Quill Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:01 am

Didge wrote:70 years of failures, shows how inept their tactics are. They rely on fear and it falls flat against a people that has nothing to lose, when faced with annihilation. That is what you fail to grasp and the end game is not a good one for the Arabs.

What do you think they're going to do, give up? In your dreams.

Didge wrote:If it came down to it and Israel faced extinction and were being overrun, they would take out most of the Arab world with Nukes.

That's exactly what I said. The Israelis only think in single confrontations--the European way. Their very definition of finality in a war is tied to their method of fighting a war.

Only, as Keegan also points out, in his final chapter, the European way is exhausted...kaput...finished. The final confrontation now is mutually assured destruction. If Israel drops one nuke, there goes all of Europe and half of North America.

Israel is just going to have to hunker down and bear it.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:17 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:70 years of failures, shows how inept their tactics are. They rely on fear and it falls flat against a people that has nothing to lose, when faced with annihilation. That is what you fail to grasp and the end game is not a good one for the Arabs.

What do you think they're going to do, give up? In your dreams.

Didge wrote:It was never theirs in the first place. They were colonialists through Arabization

Nice to see though you excuse their tantrums.

What Israel should have done, is what the allies did to a similar aggressors that started a conflict, through denying the self determination of a people.
The Germans did this with Poland and the Arabs did this with Israel.

Israel should have totally destroyed Jordan, Syria and Eygpt, as the allies did to Germany.
There would be no problems today from such a move

The biggest absurd view, claiming that this move will destroy the peace process, is a load of crap
The Palestinian authorities have continually refused to even entertain peace
As stated 5 times, they could have had a nation and 5 times they rejected this, as their hate of Israel is more important than peace or a statehood.

That's exactly what I said. The Israelis only think in single confrontations--the European way. Their very definition of finality in a war is tied to their method of fighting a war.

Only, as Keegan also points out, in his final chapter, the European way is exhausted...kaput...finished. The final confrontation now is mutually assured destruction. If Israel drops one nuke, there goes all of Europe and half of North America.

Israel is just going to have to hunker down and bear it.

Do they?

Is that now why the Gulf states want israel to do what it did twice before?

Take out the Nuke facilities in Iran, as it did with Iraq and Syria.

The only thing that is exhasted, is your argument. Which fails to understand that now the greater threat in the Middle East, is seen as Iran and not Israel.

Have you not noticed that most of the protests by the gulf states was feeble at best?

How on earth will Europe or America face nukes, based on Israel doing a nuke attack, based on their reality of extinction?

Who is going to nuke the west based off Israel doing something with its last breath?

Israel will do what it always does when faced with threats

Neutralize them, as it did with Syria and Iraq, when they looked to build Nukes. The world pissed and moaned back then and did nothing

Waiting for you to answer the following

Why is it that the Arabs, cannot live with others in peace, where western nations have moved past previous hate they had with each other?

Israel has even given up lands gain in conflicts for peace and yet the Arabs, cannot even or want to have neighbours being able to govern themselves

You see, you even argue, as if there is something inherantly wrong with Muslims and Arabs, which goes back to my original point.

I doubt many Muslims will care. Even more so when their own Quran states the lands belong to the Jews, but its interesting that so many people pander to fear.

I mean do you pander to a child having a tantrum, not getting his or her own way?

It seems the world is in perpetual fear due to the reality, that some Muslims will commit to violence, everytime they feel offended or do not get their way.

I do not see 2 billion Christians threatening to commit violence over this. Do you? Yet Jerusalem, as some of the most holiest places in Christianity.

So why do people always seem to allow some Muslims to have tantrums, when they do not get their way?

The Palestinians have had a chance to have a state 5 times and 6 if you include the fact they were given already 78% of the British Mandate in Jordan. They were still not happy with this mass of land and many living there. Still moved to where Jews had made the rest prosperous. That is irony. Many Arabs, would not even have been living there, if not for the ingenuity of the Jews.

The world has to stop pandering to the demands of the Palestian Authority, you continually keep this problem going.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:41 am

Russia recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital this past April.
Despite the fact that Russia was first, Israel’s neighboring Muslim nations are having a fit about the U.S. announcement.

Turkey’s despotic leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan has said Donald Trump’s plan to declare Jerusalem the capital of Israel is a “red line” for Muslims and could see him breaking off diplomatic relations with Israel.

Palestinian President Abbas said, “Any American step related to the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, or moving the US embassy to Jerusalem, represents a threat to the future of the peace process and is unacceptable for the Palestinians, Arabs and internationally.”

Peace process? What peace process? Does the Palestinian mean the videos running on the official Palestinian Authority TV station telling their citizens to kill Jews? Or perhaps the way his government encourages terrorism by paying blood money to terrorists or their families. How about the fact that everytime the negotiations get close to an agreement the Palestinian side pulls out of talks? Arafat did it and so did Abbas.

Of course, the media reports Abbas’ words without perspective, just like they present the Jerusalem issue without all the facts. For example they omit the historic Jewish presence in the city, Israel has controlled parts of Jerusalem since 1948, and the fact that Israel’s Muslim neighbors didn’t care about East Jerusalem until it became part of Israel in 1967. Perhaps it has to do with the media’s Democratic Party skew and the Democrat’s anti-Israel policies.

The below are six facts the MSM doesn’t tell you about Jerusalem controversy:

1) Jews have always been a large (even dominant) segment of the Jerusalem Population: During the period of 135 CE when the Romans kicked the Jews out, through 1948 when Jordan occupied the eastern part of Jerusalem, there were large populations of Jews in Jerusalem. In fact, beginning with the earliest information available (1844), there were more Jews in Jerusalem than any other faith.

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week Untitledjerus

Source: Manashe Harrel, “The Jewish Presence in Jerusalem through the Ages” in Sinai and Oestericcher, eds., Jerusalem, John Day, 1974.

2) Jerusalem has been part of Israel since 1948. The Arab Nations aren’t objecting to Israel’s presence in the part of Jerusalem controlled since June 1967, they are objecting to any Israeli presence in Jerusalem, even the section agreed to as part of the 1949 Israeli/Jordan armistice. Because of the rejectionism by Israel’s neighbors, the United States has recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

“On November 30, 1948, following the cessation of the battle between the two armies in Jerusalem, two officers – Lt. Col. Moshe Dayan of the Israeli army and Lt. Col. Abdallah A-Tal of the Jordanian army – drew in thick wax pencils an inaccurate cease-fire line on a map of Jerusalem. This line, including the No Man’s Land between the two sides, was later included in the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement of 3 April 1949. The City Line divided Jerusalem between Israel (in the western part) and Jordan (in the eastern part, including the Old City and the Temple Mount) for 19 years, until The Six Day War in June 1967 when Israel reunited the city.

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week Divided-Jerusalem-1948-1967

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week Divided-Jerusalem-1948-1967

3) Under Arab rule holy sites were not protected. Only since 1967 when Israel took control of all of Jerusalem have the holy sites in the eastern part of the city been protected and open to all faiths. Between 1949 and 1967 the Jordanians breached their commitment (in the Armistice Agreement) to allow free access of Jews to the holy sites, mainly to the Western Wall and to the cemetery on the Mount of Olives. They also desecrated the Jewish holy sites.

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week Jerusalem-shragai-hebrewbook-2015_img_42

Tombstones From The Ancient Mount Of Olives Were Used To Make Staircases By Jordan

4) The Official 1925 Supreme Moslem Council (Wakf) Guide Book To Al-Ḥaram Al-Sarif, recognized the presence of the Jewish Temples atop the Mount. Shown below is paragraph two on page four, which says, “It’s [the Temple Mount] identity with the site of Solomon’s Temple is beyond dispute.” Now 90 years later the head of the Wakf is disputing it.

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week Screen-Shot-2015-10-25-at-8.47.46-PM1

Trump likely to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital next week Screen-Shot-2015-10-25-at-8.47.46-PM1

5) The location of the Farthest Mosque in Jerusalem is a modern construct. The Arab Mulisms based their claim on Jerusalem based on a line in the Quran that says “Glory to (Allah) Who did take his servant for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest mosque” Modern Muslims claim that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the farthest Mosque. However ancient Muslim philosophers reject that notion:

Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiya (638-700), a close relative of the Prophet Muhammad, is quoted denigrating the notion that the prophet ever set foot on the Rock in Jerusalem; “these damned Syrians,” by which he means the Umayyads, “pretend that God put His foot on the Rock in Jerusalem, though [only] one person ever put his foot on the rock, namely Abraham.”

Very roughly speaking, what Jerusalem is to Jews, Mecca is to Muslims – a point made in the Qur’an itself (2:145) in recognizing that Muslims have one qibla and “the people of the Book” another one. The parallel was noted by medieval Muslims; the geographer Yaqut (1179-1229) wrote, for example, that “Mecca is holy to Muslims and Jerusalem to the Jews.” In modern times, some scholars have come to the same conclusion: “Jerusalem plays for the Jewish people the same role that Mecca has for Muslims,” writes Abdul Hadi Palazzi, director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community.

6) Arab Leaders Ignored Jerusalem Until the Six Day War. They don’t really care about the holy city, they just don’t want the Jews to have it.

Under Jordanian rule, east Jerusalem became an isolated provincial town, less important than Nablus. The economy so stagnated that many thousands of Arab Jerusalemites left the town: while the population of Amman increased five-fold in the period 1948-67, that of Jerusalem grew by just 50 percent. To take out a bank loan meant traveling to Amman. Amman had the privilege of hosting the country’s first university and the royal family’s many residences. Jerusalem Arabs knew full well what was going on, as evidenced by one notable’s complaint about the royal residences: “those palaces should have been built in Jerusalem, but were removed from here so that Jerusalem would remain not a city, but a kind of village.” East Jerusalem’s Municipal Counsel twice formally complained of the Jordanian authorities’ discrimination against their city. Source: Meron Benvenisti, Jerusalem: The Torn City (Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press, 1976), p. 28.

Perhaps most insulting of all was the decline in Jerusalem’s religious standing. Mosques lacked sufficient funds. Jordanian radio broadcast the Friday prayers not from Al-Aqsa Mosque but from an upstart mosque in Amman. (Ironically, Radio Israel began broadcasting services from Al-Aqsa immediately after the Israel victory in 1967.)

This was part of a larger pattern, as the Jordanian authorities sought to benefit from the prestige of controlling Jerusalem even as they put the city down: Marshall Breger and Thomas Idinopulos note that although King ‘Abdullah “styled himself a protector of the holy sites, he did little to promote the religious importance of Jerusalem to Muslims.” Jerusalem’s Holy Places and the Peace Process (p. 15)
Nor were Jordan’s rulers alone in ignoring Jerusalem; the city virtually disappeared from the Arab diplomatic map. Malcolm Kerr’s well-known study on inter-Arab relations during this period (The Arab Cold War) appears not once to mention the city, No foreign Arab leader came to Jerusalem during the nineteen years when Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, and King Husayn (r. 1952-99) himself only rarely visited. King Faysal of Saudi Arabia spoke often after 1967 of his yearning to pray in Jerusalem, yet he appears never to have bothered to pray there when he had the chance.

Perhaps most remarkable is that the PLO’s founding document, the Palestinian National Covenant of 1964, does not once mention Jerusalem or even allude to it. (source: Malcolm H. Kerr, The Arab Cold War: Gamal ‘Abd al-Nasir and His Rivals, 1958-70, 3d ed.

Here’s the bottom line the objections to the US recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital have nothing to do with the Muslim faith or history, and everything to do with the fact that just like the rest of Israel, if the Jewish State has it, they want it.

http://lidblog.com/msm-isnt-telling-jerusalem/

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:51 am

After U.S. Fake President Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, on December 6, 2017, Mobarak Haidar (above), renowned Pakistani historian and author of multiple books, wrote the following on his Facebook page:[1]

"Jerusalem And Muslim Claims

"The Holy Koran spoke of Al-Aqsa Mosque when it was not a 'mosque' in the Islamic sense. It was a holy place because of the prophets of Israel, from Moses to Jesus. It was the holy spot of worship for Jews and Christians. Obviously, there were no Muslims in the city of Jerusalem till the era of Emir-ul-Momineen Umar ibn Khattab... The Prophet [Muhammad] and his followers prayed with their faces toward this Jewish-Christian holy temple because Kaaba (the present center of Islamic Hajj) was full of idols.

"After the 'Conquest of Mecca,' Muslims were told to turn their faces toward Kaaba and away from Jerusalem. They have never faced their loyalty toward Jerusalem after that, for the last 1,400 years. No Muslim ever went to pray in Jerusalem till it was conquered by the second caliph [Umar ibn Khattab], although there was no restriction on Muslims. They do not go there today because it was no longer their center.

"Christians were masters of Jerusalem before Muslims conquered it. It is still a holy place for Christians. But Christians have no dispute over ownership of the city. It is their religious right to visit the holy city; and the Jews do not stop them. Muslims, too, should have the same religious rights, and in fact they have those rights; Jews do not stop them. Muslims of the world, therefore, have no religious basis to rule Jerusalem. Most of the Muslims have never even wished to visit Jerusalem. As for the political claim, only Palestinians can make it and only they should negotiate.

"It cannot be a collective Muslim claim. Quraishi Arabs were masters of Jerusalem for some time. Then Mamluks, Muslim kings, took over. Turks came after them. Colonial Christians were the last political rulers. It is interesting to note that Iranian Muslims or Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent or Southeast Asia or of Africa have never been its masters. They can claim only spiritual ties.

"Active centers of Muslim faith are none other than the Holy Cities of Mecca and Medina. Iranians have never controlled these active centers. But they are passionately building deadly weapons and jihadi forces to conquer or destroy Israel. It is sectarian politics of hegemony which can generate nothing but division and pain."

https://www.memri.org/reports/after-trumps-recognition-jerusalem-israels-capital-pakistani-historian-mobarak-haidar-writes

by Original Quill Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:56 am

Didge wrote:The only thing that is exhasted, is your argument.

Fine, try it. You've done great job so far. See any end in sight?

I'll bet you'll still be picking up the debris in a hundred years.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:08 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:The only thing that is exhasted, is your argument.

Fine, try it. I'll bet you'll still be picking up the debris in a hundred years.

I will be long dead and so will you.

So yet another failed argument.

What you fail to grasp is one single point

The Palestinians could have peace and a nation tomorrow

They always have had this chance, but continually spurn this, because they refuse to live alongside an indegenious people. The Jews who had their genesis in the land of Israel and Judea.

Why is it that you continually defend those who do not want peace?

The Palestinian authorities?

I mean Israel has withdrawn from the Sinai, Lebanon, Gaza etc doing this for peace and still are continually attacked, because the Arab Muslim authorities refuse to accept a nation to exist. In lands, the Arabs conquered and colonized.

It would be like you arguing that the Boers had rights over the many African ethnic groups to the lands of South Africa.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:19 am

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

Too many, but that has more to do with Britain and it's useless government and politicised police force than any kind of actual professionalism on the behalf of Abdullah.

Anyway what's your point?? The UK is still here after absorbing those attacks, we haven't been conquered yet.

Israel is NOT the UK, they don't fuck around,they shoot terrorists dead, they don't reward and bribe them.

My point was as I stated: perpetual war. Pay attention.

you lefties love to ignore how timelines work don't you??? I suppose you have no choice but to ignore chronology when you're rewriting history

but your logic is flawed.

the attacks in 2016 cannot be attributed to trumps recognition of Jerusalem in 2017 that's not how time works, and if your point is "perpetual war" then by your own logic we are already engaged in perpetual war and have been since 9/11which again, was BEFORE trumps announcement

trumps recognition for Jerusalem will have little impact on "perpetual war"

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:47 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

And after 70 years, continually Muslim nations, who out number Israel by millions, have been constantly and resoundedly beaten. So why is it millions cannot defeat Israel?

They battle in a different way. As John Keegan documents, Muslims have two things that make them a formidable fighting force: 1) an undying ideology; and 2) a peck and avoid strategy.

What ISIS is doing in Northern Iraq and Syria is very rare for an Arab fighting force. They rarely fight in the European way, with confrontational, single and final battle. But mark my word, they will be there forever.

What ISIS is doing in Northern Iraq and Syria is very rare for an Arab fighting force.

whats that??? raping women and killing old men and children?? no quill that sort of "fighting" is common as muck where Arabs and in particular Muslims are concerned.

and ISIS arent DOING anything, they had their shot and lost, they lost ground they lost cohesion, they are fractured and splintering away into nothing.

the western way of fighting war only developed because that is the way other western countries tend to fight but its not the only way the western world fights, you seem to think that the western armies are restricted to conventional warfare and conventional warfare only.

nonsense of course since western armies are making using special forces more and more in the fight against ISIS and the like.

northern Ireland was very much a non conventional theatre and SF were heavily involved and highly successful in that conflict,even regular forces adopted different tactics to deal with NI, they did the same in afghan and iraq, military tactics are fluid, they evolve and develop in response to what the enemy is doing.

ISIS and the like are savages who rely on allah to protect and guide them, they might be able to rape women and kill defenseless men with the best of them, but when faced with any kind of regular military that has been trained and well equipped and supported?? they cannot stand toe to toe with them.

we have seen that time and time again.

i mean for goodness sakes part of ISIS training was diving through burning rings of fire and getting kicked in the balls, what practical application does that have???

we then see these cretins on TV and what do we see??

blind firing round corners on full auto.

full auto firing from the hip.

full auto firing over the tops of walls.

full auto firing on every weapon they have.

they might have millions of followers, i hope they have millions of body bags.

by nicko Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:45 am

I'v watched these so-called fighters on TV, standing out in the open firing full auto at fuck knows what ! they are not Soldiers they are just show offs,"look at me, aren't I brave?" any decent Sniper would pick him off in seconds, and they do so lots of times. In the British Army they would be charged with wasting rounds and made to pay for them !
In Nam, some of the yanks would hold their M16's over the walls above their heads and fire off full mag's with no idea what they were hitting!

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:00 pm

nicko wrote:I'v watched these so-called fighters on TV, standing out in the open firing full auto at fuck knows what ! they are not Soldiers they are just show offs,"look at me, aren't I brave?" any decent Sniper would pick him off in seconds, and they do so lots of times. In the British Army they would be charged with wasting rounds and made to pay for them !
In Nam, some of the yanks would hold their M16's over the walls above their heads and fire off full mag's with no idea what they were hitting!

exactly

quill has watched one too many rambo films

he seems to think that the way these cretins fight is superior to the way the west does business, i think he like the romance of the idea of a freedom fighter taking on the big dogs and winning.

but yeah, the reality is that the majority of ISIS fighters are untrained thugs with AK's who have watched too many Rambo movies

by nicko Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:01 pm

Have a green thing Smelly, Quill has no idea how a real, highly trained Soldier fights a war. He should read up on the Falklands war, he might learn something about how to fight and win !

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:26 pm

Jerusalem protests claim their first life as Palestinian is shot dead by Israeli soldiers during clashes over Trump's plan to move US embassy

Israeli soldiers have shot two Palestinians dead while hundreds more are injured after violent clashes erupted over Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Protesters launched stones at Israeli troops, who responded with tear gas and rubber bullets while huge crowds rallied outside Jerusalem's Al Aqsa Mosque, a flashpoint site in the holy city.

This afternoon, Palestinian officials announced two protesters had been shot dead by Israeli soldiers in Gaza - only to retract their statement and name only one victim, Mahmoud al-Masri, 30.

Israel's army, however, confirmed it had shot two people along the border, accusing them of being 'main instigators' of 'violent riots'.

More than 250 have been injured in the clashes, which erupted after Friday prayers. In the West Bank city of Ramallah, troops sent in a jeep armed with a multi-grenade tear gas launcher that rained projectiles down on masked protesters.

As demonstrations took place around the world today, protesters burnt effigies of Donald Trump in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia while hundreds rallied in the Iranian capital, Tehran, chanting 'death to America'.

Thousands also marched in Turkey as well as in Afghanistan, Jordan, Pakistan, Somalia and Egypt, where campaigners vowed to 'sacrifice our blood and souls for Palestine'.

Meanwhile, US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said today that plans to move America's embassy to Jerusalem are unlikely to be acted on for at least two years.

Tillerson said it will 'take some time' to acquire a site for the embassy, develop building and construction plans, obtain authorisations from the Israeli government and actually build the embassy.

It won't happen this year, and probably not in 2018, he said, adding that Trump's recognition of the city as Israel's capital 'did not indicate any final status for Jerusalem.'

He says the US is making clear that Jerusalem's borders will be left to Israelis and Palestinians to 'negotiate and decide.'

However, Trump's announcement has inflamed tensions in the region.

Yesterday, the Islamist group Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, called for a new 'intifada', or uprising, and three missiles were fired last night from the coastal territory into Israel.

Two fell short and the third caused no damage, the Israeli military said, and warplanes and tanks were scrambled in response, striking two sites used by Hamas terrorises in Gaza.

On the West Bank, the more moderate Palestinian Authority ordered a general strike.

Schools, universities and shops in Arab areas of Jerusalem were closed amid expectations that thousands of young people would take to the streets in anger today to battle soldiers and police.

This morning, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital by the United States runs counter to common sense.

'This announcement runs counter to common sense,' Lavrov told a news conference in Vienna.

French President Emmanuel Macron has appealed for calm in the region.

Speaking at a meeting to discuss Lebanon, Macron said Trump's decision should not 'add to the instability of the region. I'm issuing a call for calm and responsibility by everyone which is essential for the efforts we are undertaking here.'

As so-called 'day of rage' protests took place in Muslim countries around the world, thousands of pro-Palestinian supporters marched after Friday prayers in Istanbul this morning.

Chanting slogans including 'Jerusalem is ours and will remain so!' and 'down with America, down with Israel', the protesters marched after prayers at the Ottoman Fatih mosque in the centre of Istanbul, the correspondent added. Other protests were planned elsewhere in Istanbul and across Turkey on Friday.

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has taken a strong line against the move and called an emergency summit meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) on December 13 in Istanbul.

Last year, Turkey and Israel ended a rift triggered by Israel's storming in 2010 of a Gaza-bound ship that left 10 Turkish activists dead and led to a downgrading of diplomatic ties.

The two sides have since stepped up cooperation, particularly in energy, but Erdogan, who regards himself as a champion of the Palestinian cause, is still often bitterly critical of Israeli policy.

Earlier today, Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia protested outside the U.S. embassies.

In Kuala Lumpur, more than 1,000 protesters led by Sports Minister Khairy Jamaluddin marched from a nearby mosque after Friday prayers to the U.S. Embassy, halting traffic as they chanted 'Long live Islam' and 'Destroy Zionists.' Many carried banners, some of which said 'Free Palestine' and 'Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine.'

Khairy addressed Trump in a speech after handing a protest note to an embassy official, saying 'Mr President, this is an illegal announcement. Jerusalem is an occupied territory. You must not even set foot in Jerusalem. ... The world will rise against the United States.'

'Trump has to understand that Jerusalem is not his to give and the decision for whatever status of Jerusalem should not come from America,' said Ulya Aqamah bin Husamudin, a leader of the political party BERSATU.

Nurul Hidayah Mesari, a student, compared Jerusalem to the holy Muslim cities of Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia, saying 'it's as if those places were occupied as well, that's our feeling.'

In Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, more than 300 protesters shouted 'Go to hell Israel!' and called on Trump to stop 'blind support' for the Jewish state. Neither Malaysia nor Indonesia has diplomatic ties with Israel and both are strong supporters of Palestinians.

The protesters marched from mosques to the heavily guarded U.S. Embassy in Jakarta, waving Palestinian and Indonesian flags. They burned tires near the embassy and photos of Trump and U.S. and Israeli flags in a similar rally in the cities of Banda Aceh and Makassar. Another protest was held in Surabaya, Indonesia's second largest city.

Hundreds of Muslim Kashmiris also marched at several places in the main city of Srinagar and other parts of Indian-controlled Kashmir, chanting slogans 'Down with America' and 'Down with Israel.' They burned U.S. and Israeli flags, while authorities imposed a curfew in old parts of Srinagar and disallowed Friday prayers at the city's main mosque for fear protests could morph into violent anti-India rallies.

Kashmiri leaders have called Trump's move 'anti-Muslim.'

It follows widespread unrest across the region yesterday with violence flaring at multiple points and angry demonstrators in Gaza burning Israeli and American flags and images of Mr Trump.

In Bethlehem, on the West Bank, tear gas was fired to dispel rioters along streets decorated with Christmas

On the outskirts of the Palestinian city of Ramallah yesterday, Israeli police fired tear gas and stun grenades at crowds of young men who were throwing stones and burning tyres.

Hundreds of Palestinians also gathered at the plaza outside the Damascus Gate entrance to Jerusalem's Old City, chanting 'Jerusalem is Arab, Jerusalem is Palestinian', and 'Trump, Trump, you will see, Palestine will be free'.

The demonstrators clashed frequently with police as officers attempted to clear them from the plaza.

Three Palestinians were arrested in Jerusalem and more than 100 injured elsewhere as concerns mounted that further unrest was planned for today after Friday prayers, traditionally a febrile time in the region.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5158827/Day-rage-expected-Jerusalem.html

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:27 pm

good shooting boys!!!!!

give em hell

by magica Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:34 pm

Serious question, how comes Trump gets to decide the capital of Israel.

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:41 pm

magica wrote:Serious question, how comes Trump gets to decide the capital of Israel.

errrr he hasn't decided it

Jerusalem has always been Israels capital, trump has just acknowledged historical fact

by Original Quill Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:04 pm

nicko wrote:Have a green thing Smelly, Quill has no idea how a real, highly trained Soldier fights a war. He should read up on the Falklands war, he might learn something about how to fight and win !

The Falklands War was a classic single confrontation, European-style war.

The question isn't how Europeans fight Europeans, but how Europeans fight a people who use hit and run tactics.

Keegan, John wrote:The Arabs transfused warfare with a new force altogether, the force of an idea. Ideology... Their new religion, Islam, was a creed of conflict, that taught the necessity of submission to to its revealed teachings and the right of its believers to take arms against those who opposed them.

Keegan, John, A History of Warfare (1993) [italics added]

Keegan, former senior lecturer in military history at the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst, added that their preferred...

Keegan, John wrote:"...form of operations was the raid (ghazwa)...Arab armies chose positions defended by natural obstacles where their dismounted soldiers, armed with the composite bow, could fight behind some protection; they also preferred ground from which they had an easy escape route into the desert.

His tactics were 'primative' to begin with, and he saw no indignity in retreat as long as his soldiers retained their belief in eventual victory."

A warfare ideology and 'hit and run' tactics...and what do we see today?? Acts of terrorism bear the same marks as yesteryear. The added 'suicidal' element is merely a part of the devotional element of the ideology.

Now, if you think your 'high training' is superior to those who teach at Sandhurst, why don't you share it with us in more detail? Notably, what do you think is going to change the 1.6-billion strong Muslim mind, in the midst of goading by the ignorant Trump, such that we don't have perpetual war? How are we going to avoid a thousand-year war? I'm all ears.

by magica Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:18 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
magica wrote:Serious question, how comes Trump gets to decide the capital of Israel.

errrr he hasn't decided it

Jerusalem has always been Israels capital, trump has just acknowledged historical fact

If that's the case, how come other countries don't recognise it and neither do the Palestinians

by HoratioTarr Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:31 pm

magica wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

errrr he hasn't decided it

Jerusalem has always been Israels capital, trump has just acknowledged historical fact

If that's the case, how come other countries don't recognise it and neither do the Palestinians

Coz they're ALL a bunch of idiots.

by Fred Moletrousers Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:41 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
magica wrote:

If that's the case, how come other countries don't recognise it and neither do the Palestinians

Coz they're ALL a bunch of idiots.

Well, that certainly may well be true, HT...but although Smelly is perfectly correct in stating that Jerusalem is the capital city of the State of Israel, by declaration of the government of Israel, , international diplomatic activity has always been centred on Tel Aviv.

I know both cities well...to visit Jerusalem is the experience of a lifetime; to visit Tel Aviv is to appreciate some fine beaches and, if so inclined, to experience the delights of a notorious nightclub called Fuckerama on the Tel Aviv/Jaffa road.

Please be assured that when I was in Tel Aviv, I didn't!

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:18 pm

magica wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

errrr he hasn't decided it

Jerusalem has always been Israels capital, trump has just acknowledged historical fact

If that's the case, how come other countries don't recognise it and neither do the Palestinians

its complicated.

the Palestinians wont recognize it as a Jewish city because it contains an allegedly famous mosque and once a land has been captured by a Muslim army, Muslims consider that land to belong to Allah for all eternity, so they cant recognize it as Jewish since they don't want to give it to the Jews.

the issue of peace revolves somewhat around Jerusalem and its ownership, historically it is the Jewish capital city but the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem is through Islamic conquest and occupation, so the rest of the world didn't want to take sides.

don't forget that Israel and Jerusalem both existed long before Palestine or Islam.

trump has simply acknowledge historical fact , whilst the rest of the world is doing the political hand wringing thing they are so good at

by Guest Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:19 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Coz they're ALL a bunch of idiots.

Well, that certainly may well be true, HT...but although Smelly is perfectly correct in stating that Jerusalem is the capital city of the State of Israel, by declaration of the government of Israel, , international diplomatic activity has always been centred on Tel Aviv.

I know both cities well...to visit Jerusalem is the experience of a lifetime; to visit Tel Aviv is to appreciate some fine beaches and, if so inclined, to experience the delights of a notorious nightclub called Fuckerama on the Tel Aviv/Jaffa road.

Please be assured that when I was in Tel Aviv, I didn't!

Israel is on my bucket list

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