Supreme Court to weigh free speech, discrimination in wedding cake casce

by Guest Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Supreme Court has a tough question ahead: Where do you draw the line between free speech and discrimination?

The case headed to the high court in the new term that begins next month centers on Jack Phillips, the owner of the Colorado-based Masterpiece Cakeshop who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding.

Phillips claims he shouldn’t be forced to under the state’s anti-discrimination law and gained a strong ally this week when the Trump administration filed a friend of the court brief on his behalf.
Acting Solicitor General Jeffrey Wall and DOJ attorneys claim there is no clear line between Phillips’s speech and that of his clients when he designs and creates a custom wedding cake.

“He is not merely tolerating someone else’s message on his property; he is giving effect to their message by crafting a unique product with his own two hands,” the administration said in its 41-page brief.

Continue reading by clicking the name of the source below.

SOURCE THE HILL

by Eilzel Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:24 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

But to force religious people is okay with you. Thus you discriminating against them.

Like I said, the tolerant now becomes the intolerant.

I'd be forcing myself in the reverse situation. So not intolerant, just fair.

So you now claim to speak for all homosexuals do you?

You have been intolerant, which is what is so wrong here, espcially when we live in a secular society that does not ban beliefs.

You just make it up as you go along sometimes..

I never claimed to speak for all gay people.
I didn't say we should ban beliefs.

Next time reply to what I actually said.

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:26 am

veya_victaous wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:businesses are not people, protections for personal beliefs do NOT extend to them. No one is forced to run a business.

open and shut case under UK and Australian law.

If you have a problem and think the British law is Wrong then argue with you MP

another BUMP for thorin

Its not open and shut case under EU law.

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:28 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you now claim to speak for all homosexuals do you?

You have been intolerant, which is what is so wrong here, espcially when we live in a secular society that does not ban beliefs.

You just make it up as you go along sometimes..

I never claimed to speak for all gay people.
I didn't say we should ban beliefs.

Next time reply to what I actually said.

What?

When you avoided countless of my points?

Again you invoked a view based on you saying you would serve someone, not thinking of any other homosexual who might well object to doing so.

Hence what you would do is irrelevant.

My point on you being intolerant, as you have been by saying "fuck em".

Next time dont be such a condescending dick

The reality is you back discriminbating against people forcing them to prmote views that go against their beliefs.

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:36 am

This is the problem I see more and more from the left.

That they become more and more intolerant, heading towards totalitarianism.

I back the right of homosexuals to have equality under the law.

I do not back them to force someone to promote something that goes against their beliefs.

Hence its wrong for a B&B owner to deny letting a room to a gay couple because they are gay.

But its also wrong for a gay couple to force a cake owner to promote a view against his belief.

We live in a secular society, not North Korea.

by Eilzel Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:37 am

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you now claim to speak for all homosexuals do you?

You have been intolerant, which is what is so wrong here, espcially when we live in a secular society that does not ban beliefs.

You just make it up as you go along sometimes..

I never claimed to speak for all gay people.
I didn't say we should ban beliefs.

Next time reply to what I actually said.

What?

When you avoided countless of my points?

Again you invoked a view based on you saying you would serve someone, not thinking of any other homosexual who might well object to doing so.

Hence what you would do is irrelevant.

My point on you being intolerant, as you have been by saying "fuck em".

Next time dont be such a condescending dick

The reality is you back discriminbating against people forcing them to prmote views that go against their beliefs.

Even if they would object, it doesn't matter, laws have to be fair to all. I'm not speaking for all gay people, I'm speaking of what I think is right.

And let's be honest, I can say this from the luxury that no absolute tool is ever going to require a cake stating they oppose gay marriage...

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:39 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

What?

When you avoided countless of my points?

Again you invoked a view based on you saying you would serve someone, not thinking of any other homosexual who might well object to doing so.

Hence what you would do is irrelevant.

My point on you being intolerant, as you have been by saying "fuck em".

Next time dont be such a condescending dick

The reality is you back discriminbating against people forcing them to prmote views that go against their beliefs.

Even if they would object, it doesn't matter, laws have to be fair to all. I'm not speaking for all gay people, I'm speaking of what I think is right.

And let's be honest, I can say this from the luxury that no absolute tool is ever going to require a cake stating they oppose gay marriage...

Which means you are not thus thinking on how other homosexuals might think, which is what is needed here.

You can say with certainty can you?

That none of the things I have suggested will never happen.

How many people have eaten their words making that poor claim?

Right have to go to work.

I think you need to take a long hard look at how you want to force people to promote views against their beliefs.

That is Totalitarianism, not secularism.

Byeee

by Eilzel Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:51 am

Half of people are never happy with a lot of decisions to be fair. There are two sides of everything. Bye.

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:53 am

If I owned a Christian cake shop I wouldn't have a problem making a cake for a same sex couple - business is business and makes me money .

I do however think that people should be able to refuse if it goes against what they believe .

I agree with didge - what if a moslem cake shop were asked to create a cake with a huge cross and write ' Jesus is the son of God ' they don't believe that and they should have the right to refuse . Or a Jewish cake shop being forced to create a cake in the shape of a gas chamber not nice I know but its an example of offense that is being forced upon people's beliefs .

by Eilzel Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:40 am

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:If I owned a Christian cake shop I wouldn't have a problem making a cake for a same sex couple - business is business and makes me money .

I do however think that people should be able to refuse if it goes against what they believe .

I agree with didge - what if a moslem cake shop were asked to create a cake with a huge cross and write ' Jesus is the son of God ' they don't believe that and they should have the right to refuse . Or a Jewish cake shop being forced to create a cake in the shape of a gas chamber not nice I know but its an example of offense that is being forced upon people's beliefs .

The problem with that is, hypothetically, if every person in the country were homophobic, then gay people wouldn't be served anywhere. Then we'd have serious problems. Now of course that isn't going to be the case in modern Britain, but it MIGHT be close to the case in other countries. So you might support my point in another country. If you do, then why apply laws in one place you wouldn't apply at home? The principle is the same.

The point put across by you and didge is absurd.

No one is going to ask for a cake with gas chambers depicted on it; I doubt anyone would want a cake saying Jesus is the Son of God (what would be the occasion where such a claim would need to be stated?), the stupid Mexican wall is again a ridiculous idea for a cake, no one would EVER want. Likewise, when is a cake saying "Vote no" or even "Vote yes" to Same Sex marriage ever going to be a thing? It's an absurd argument. Presumably, for the hypothetical 'Jesus is the Son of God' cake, a real Christian wouldn't even want it made by someone who believes in another religion's god.

Whereas, the cake in question, a wedding cake, is probably the 2nd most common cake request in the world (right after birthday cake of course lol).

Allowing people to discriminate based on sexuality is WRONG in any circumstances. It really is that simple. No one is stopping people having their beliefs. No one is forcing people to go against their beliefs. We are asking people to do their jobs, that's it.

In the real world, no Trump supporter is going to ask for a cake with a fucking wall on it; no Christian is going to ask a Muslim baker for a cake with a fucking Christian slogan on it and no complete political nerd is going to ask for a cake voting one way or the other in a marriage debate. Gay people WILL ask for wedding cakes Rolling Eyes

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:05 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

So what about the Muslim. Checkout attendant that won't sell customers their booze??

Legal or illegal??

it is different as they are not, not selling it because of what the customers is. so it is not discrimination against the customer. However the customer may be able to sue the store (not the checkout attendant directly) if they made a statement like "As a Christian/atheist/etc I am allowed to consume alcohol" then it would override the checkout persons dislike of doing so.(much like the baker's personal opinion is overridden by the companies requirement to operate lawfully)

that issues has more to do with the employee and employer discrimination act, it is arguable that the employee is unable to preform the required function and can be legally terminated. but it depends on the specifics of the employment contract (are the specifically employed as checkout staff), the employer may need to just move them to different role

But but but but that's different smelly..........(because they are Muslims and will kills us all if we fuck with them)

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:36 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:If I owned a Christian cake shop I wouldn't have a problem making a cake for a same sex couple - business is business and makes me money .

I do however think that people should be able to refuse if it goes against what they believe .

I agree with didge - what if a moslem cake shop were asked to create a cake with a huge cross and write ' Jesus is the son of God ' they don't believe that and they should have the right to refuse . Or a Jewish cake shop being forced to create a cake in the shape of a gas chamber not nice I know but its an example of offense that is being forced upon people's beliefs .

The problem with that is, hypothetically, if every person in the country were homophobic, then gay people wouldn't be served anywhere. Then we'd have serious problems. Now of course that isn't going to be the case in modern Britain, but it MIGHT be close to the case in other countries. So you might support my point in another country. If you do, then why apply laws in one place you wouldn't apply at home? The principle is the same.

The point put across by you and didge is absurd.

No one is going to ask for a cake with gas chambers depicted on it; I doubt anyone would want a cake saying Jesus is the Son of God (what would be the occasion where such a claim would need to be stated?), the stupid Mexican wall is again a ridiculous idea for a cake, no one would EVER want. Likewise, when is a cake saying "Vote no" or even "Vote yes" to Same Sex marriage ever going to be a thing? It's an absurd argument. Presumably, for the hypothetical 'Jesus is the Son of God' cake, a real Christian wouldn't even want it made by someone who believes in another religion's god.

Whereas, the cake in question, a wedding cake, is probably the 2nd most common cake request in the world (right after birthday cake of course lol).

Allowing people to discriminate based on sexuality is WRONG in any circumstances. It really is that simple. No one is stopping people having their beliefs. No one is forcing people to go against their beliefs. We are asking people to do their jobs, that's it.

In the real world, no Trump supporter is going to ask for a cake with a fucking wall on it; no Christian is going to ask a Muslim baker for a cake with a fucking Christian slogan on it and no complete political nerd is going to ask for a cake voting one way or the other in a marriage debate. Gay people WILL ask for wedding cakes

Well gays are asking Christians to go against their beliefs by trying to force them to bake them a cake - why should they be forced when they don't believe it is moral - like I said I have no problem with gays and I would bake you a cake lol - but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean other Christians feel the same .

How can you be sure that a Christian wouldn't ask a moslem cake maker to bake them a cake and write Jesus is the son of God ' - its only the same thing as asking a Christian to bake a cake for gays - would you go to a moslem baker and ask them to make you a cake for your wedding ? if not why not and why would it be okay to ask Christians to do it and not moslems ?

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:07 pm

Eilzel wrote:

The problem with that is, hypothetically, if every person in the country were homophobic, then gay people wouldn't be served anywhere. Then we'd have serious problems. Now of course that isn't going to be the case in modern Britain, but it MIGHT be close to the case in other countries. So you might support my point in another country. If you do, then why apply laws in one place you wouldn't apply at home? The principle is the same.

The point put across by you and didge is absurd.

Here we go again where Eilzel confuses the issue that is being talked about.
This is not about discriminating people becuase they are gay.
That is inherantly wrong, as has also been stated countless times.
This is about forcing the promotion of beliefs that conflict with the person this is forced upon.
You seem to wrongly conflate this is about the gay couple themselves.
Its not, its based on promoting the view of a gay marriage.

How many fucking times does this need to be pointed out to you?
That you are opening up a presedence to force people within business to promote views that conflict with their beliefs. What is worse is you think it is acceptable to do..

Again that is not secualarisn, but Totalitarianism

Supreme Court to weigh free speech, discrimination in wedding cake casce - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdPIUXKfy8Z9OJuMFLgQNvKRmyE18uctd7CqTmxANHwcLnL4cP

Supreme Court to weigh free speech, discrimination in wedding cake casce - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdPIUXKfy8Z9OJuMFLgQNvKRmyE18uctd7CqTmxANHwcLnL4cP

Now imagine asking an Eastern European who lived through Communism and hated it to make a cake like this.
Do you not think they have a right to say no to making this cake?

by Eilzel Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:25 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:If I owned a Christian cake shop I wouldn't have a problem making a cake for a same sex couple - business is business and makes me money .

I do however think that people should be able to refuse if it goes against what they believe .

I agree with didge - what if a moslem cake shop were asked to create a cake with a huge cross and write ' Jesus is the son of God ' they don't believe that and they should have the right to refuse . Or a Jewish cake shop being forced to create a cake in the shape of a gas chamber not nice I know but its an example of offense that is being forced upon people's beliefs .

The problem with that is, hypothetically, if every person in the country were homophobic, then gay people wouldn't be served anywhere. Then we'd have serious problems. Now of course that isn't going to be the case in modern Britain, but it MIGHT be close to the case in other countries. So you might support my point in another country. If you do, then why apply laws in one place you wouldn't apply at home? The principle is the same.

The point put across by you and didge is absurd.

No one is going to ask for a cake with gas chambers depicted on it; I doubt anyone would want a cake saying Jesus is the Son of God (what would be the occasion where such a claim would need to be stated?), the stupid Mexican wall is again a ridiculous idea for a cake, no one would EVER want. Likewise, when is a cake saying "Vote no" or even "Vote yes" to Same Sex marriage ever going to be a thing? It's an absurd argument. Presumably, for the hypothetical 'Jesus is the Son of God' cake, a real Christian wouldn't even want it made by someone who believes in another religion's god.

Whereas, the cake in question, a wedding cake, is probably the 2nd most common cake request in the world (right after birthday cake of course lol).

Allowing people to discriminate based on sexuality is WRONG in any circumstances. It really is that simple. No one is stopping people having their beliefs. No one is forcing people to go against their beliefs. We are asking people to do their jobs, that's it.

In the real world, no Trump supporter is going to ask for a cake with a fucking wall on it; no Christian is going to ask a Muslim baker for a cake with a fucking Christian slogan on it and no complete political nerd is going to ask for a cake voting one way or the other in a marriage debate. Gay people WILL ask for wedding cakes

Well gays are asking Christians to go against their beliefs by trying to force them to bake them a cake - why should they be forced when they don't believe it is moral - like I said I have no problem with gays and I would bake you a cake lol - but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean other Christians feel the same .

How can you be sure that a Christian wouldn't ask a moslem cake maker to bake them a cake and write Jesus is the son of God ' - its only the same thing as asking a Christian to bake a cake for gays - would you go to a moslem baker and ask them to make you a cake for your wedding ? if not why not and why would it be okay to ask Christians to do it and not moslems ?

You and smelly seem to share the delusion that when we say we expect it of Christians that we don't expect the same of Muslims. I do. Muslims are no different to Christians.

Are cakes with 'Jesus is the son of god' a common thing then VoD? As common as wedding cakes? Didn't think so, so a pointless argument.

Now please show me the verse that says 'thou shalt not bake a gay wedding cake'.

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:34 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Well gays are asking Christians to go against their beliefs by trying to force them to bake them a cake - why should they be forced when they don't believe it is moral - like I said I have no problem with gays and I would bake you a cake lol - but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean other Christians feel the same .

How can you be sure that a Christian wouldn't ask a moslem cake maker to bake them a cake and write Jesus is the son of God ' - its only the same thing as asking a Christian to bake a cake for gays - would you go to a moslem baker and ask them to make you a cake for your wedding ? if not why not and why would it be okay to ask Christians to do it and not moslems ?

You and smelly seem to share the delusion that when we say we expect it of Christians that we don't expect the same of Muslims. I do. Muslims are no different to Christians.

Are cakes with 'Jesus is the son of god' a common thing then VoD? As common as wedding cakes? Didn't think so, so a pointless argument.

Now please show me the verse that says 'thou shalt not bake a gay wedding cake'.

you don't expect the same of Muslims, you give them a free pass at every turn, in fact everytime someone does criticize Islam or the behavior of the Muhammadans, you immediately jump to their defense with cries of "islamophobe"

I don't hear you calling for mosques to be closed down for what they teach about homosexuality, or dare i say it??? allowing gay marriage, that's a long way off isn't it?? seems like you just shrug and accept it as the norm that's because you're all so shit scared of them, and who can blame you, you're soft , not designed for dealing with muhhamad and his crew, best you stick to the safe bet - bashing Christians, you know for sure you wont lose your head over it.

you're missing the point of this whole thing, its about forcing someone to do something they don't want to do "because they are a business"

by Eilzel Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:39 pm

Strawman argument. I give no free pass to Muslims. Nothing to respond to then really.

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:55 pm

Eilzel wrote:Strawman argument. I give no free pass to Muslims. Nothing to respond to then really.

ill have to remember that the next time you're shrieking at me about being an islamophobe

by Tommy Monk Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:47 pm

Surely this cake maker has the right to decide which jobs he agrees to take on to do or not...!?

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:13 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Well gays are asking Christians to go against their beliefs by trying to force them to bake them a cake - why should they be forced when they don't believe it is moral - like I said I have no problem with gays and I would bake you a cake lol - but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean other Christians feel the same .

How can you be sure that a Christian wouldn't ask a moslem cake maker to bake them a cake and write Jesus is the son of God ' - its only the same thing as asking a Christian to bake a cake for gays - would you go to a moslem baker and ask them to make you a cake for your wedding ? if not why not and why would it be okay to ask Christians to do it and not moslems ?

You and smelly seem to share the delusion that when we say we expect it of Christians that we don't expect the same of Muslims. I do. Muslims are no different to Christians.

Are cakes with 'Jesus is the son of god' a common thing then VoD? As common as wedding cakes? Didn't think so, so a pointless argument.

Now please show me the verse that says 'thou shalt not bake a gay wedding cake'.

cakes with scripture on are very common .

Supreme Court to weigh free speech, discrimination in wedding cake casce - Page 2 Jesus_10

Supreme Court to weigh free speech, discrimination in wedding cake casce - Page 2 Jesus_11

Supreme Court to weigh free speech, discrimination in wedding cake casce - Page 2 Nativi10

Show me scripture where it says believers have to accept homosexuals .

by Tommy Monk Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:28 pm

Try going into any Muslim run restaurant/take away and demanding a non halal meat dish...!!!

Of course this demand will be refused...!!!

So shouldn't they all be prosecuted for refusing you service on religious grounds and that being discrimination...!!!???

Or are we going to see some posters try to say 'but, but, but... that's different...!'...!!!???

Laughing

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Try going into any Muslim run restaurant/take away and demanding a non halal meat dish...!!!
Of course this demand will be refused...!!!
So shouldn't they all be prosecuted for refusing you service on religious grounds and that being discrimination...!!!???
Or are we going to see some posters try to say 'but, but, but... that's different...!'...!!!???

Try reading again what you wrote and then digest further and see how that argument falls apart.

Take as long as you need.

I will give a you a clue, think of a Vegitarian restaurant.

Does it serve meat?

Then think of the cake store and if this serves hot dogs?

by Tommy Monk Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:01 pm

I'm talking about getting a non halal meat dish from a meat dish serving food business run by people with certain religious views...

Either they should provide me with the meat dish of my demand that satisfies my particular beliefs, although it goes against theirs, or they are refusing service to me on religious grounds and that is discrimination...!!!

Maybe if they had a sign in window saying 'no christian/jew food served here'... then that would be ok...?

So maybe the cake maker should have had a sign saying 'no homosexual cakes served here'... and that would have been ok too...!!!???

Or is it more 'but, but, but... that's different...' waffle...!!!???

Laughing

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:04 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm talking about getting a non halal meat dish from a meat dish serving food business run by people with certain religious views... Either they should provide me with the meat dish of my demand that satisfies my particular beliefs, although it goes against theirs, or they are refusing service to me on religious grounds and that is discrimination...!!!
Maybe if they had a sign in window saying 'no christian/jew food served here'... then that would be ok...?
So maybe the cake maker should have had a sign saying 'no homosexual cakes served here'... and that would have been ok too...!!!???
Or is it more 'but, but, but... that's different...' waffle...!!!???

Does it have to provide non-halal food?

So can you ask for a big mac in a chinese restaurant?

Try really thinking again.

by Tommy Monk Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:17 pm

Talking about going into a curry/kebab house and asking for one of the meat dishes that they have on their menu... but wanting a non halal version to conform with my personal beliefs...!!!

Isn't it wrong for them to deny me service of this... because they say they won't cook me food that goes against their religious beliefs...!!!???

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:25 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Talking about going into a curry/kebab house and asking for one of the meat dishes that they have on their menu... but wanting a non halal version to conform with my personal beliefs...!!!

Isn't it wrong for them to deny me service of this... because they say they won't cook me food that goes against their religious beliefs...!!!???

Your personal beliefs, did you say? Not religious then?

How can they serve you a non-halal kebab, when they only have halal meat?

by Tommy Monk Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:03 pm

Why are they allowed to get away with denying service to someone who has requested them to provide a dish that is listed on their menu, and as a business should legally cater for all customers legitimate preferences/beliefs regardless of race/religion/gender/sexuality/disability etc, but service denied because business refused to provide a non halal version that customer requested as personal preference, which amounts to business discriminating against customer on religious grounds...?

by Guest Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:25 pm

There is a very simple solution to this problem

Don't take payment, give quotes or accept jobs until you have all the details.

If it's a gay marriage or something you're not in favour of??

Simply price yourself out of the market

by Original Quill Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:58 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:There is a very simple solution to this problem

Don't take payment, give quotes or accept jobs until you have all the details.

If it's a gay marriage or something you're not in favour of??

Simply price yourself out of the market

They always lie. That's called a pretextual excuse. So common, it's gotta name...

You just put into evidence that yesterday's prices were lower. Tomorrow's too.

by eddie Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:11 pm

If it was me running a business and I was asked to make a cake about something I was wholly against, I'd make it, spit in it, take the fucker's money and laugh all the way to the bank.

Et voila!

by Tommy Monk Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:04 am

eddie wrote:If it was me running a business and I was asked to make a cake about something I was wholly against, I'd make it, spit in it, take the fucker's money and laugh all the way to the bank.

Et voila!

But if cake man had been found to have done that, you would be screaming about how homophobic and wrong it was...!

Because it is only people with views YOU DISAGREE WITH that deserve such 'punishment'...!!!

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:22 am

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Well gays are asking Christians to go against their beliefs by trying to force them to bake them a cake - why should they be forced when they don't believe it is moral - like I said I have no problem with gays and I would bake you a cake lol - but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean other Christians feel the same .

How can you be sure that a Christian wouldn't ask a moslem cake maker to bake them a cake and write Jesus is the son of God ' - its only the same thing as asking a Christian to bake a cake for gays - would you go to a moslem baker and ask them to make you a cake for your wedding ? if not why not and why would it be okay to ask Christians to do it and not moslems ?

You and smelly seem to share the delusion that when we say we expect it of Christians that we don't expect the same of Muslims. I do. Muslims are no different to Christians.

Are cakes with 'Jesus is the son of god' a common thing then VoD? As common as wedding cakes? Didn't think so, so a pointless argument.

Now please show me the verse that says 'thou shalt not bake a gay wedding cake'.

cakes with scripture on are very common .

Show me scripture where it says believers have to accept homosexuals .

What kind of ridiculous logic is that?

"Scripture doesn't say we have to accept gay people so we shouldn't have to"

Ok, so since scrpiture says you don't have to accept Chinese people does it make it ok to refuse them service too? Of course not!

by veya_victaous Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:46 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

So what about the Muslim. Checkout attendant that won't sell customers their booze??

Legal or illegal??

it is different as they are not, not selling it because of what the customers is. so it is not discrimination against the customer. However the customer may be able to sue the store (not the checkout attendant directly) if they made a statement like "As a Christian/atheist/etc I am allowed to consume alcohol" then it would override the checkout persons dislike of doing so.(much like the baker's personal opinion is overridden by the companies requirement to operate lawfully)

that issues has more to do with the employee and employer discrimination act, it is arguable that the employee is unable to preform the required function and can be legally terminated. but it depends on the specifics of the employment contract (are the specifically employed as checkout staff), the employer may need to just move them to different role

But but but but that's different smelly..........(because they are Muslims and will kills us all if we fuck with them)

Can you read?

I said they Could sue, but it is different because they are not denying the sale based on what the customer is (presuming they are not selling it to anybody)but because of the checkout person opinion which is still not a good enough reason
The baker is not selling it because of what the customer is, legally this is different.

I know you not very smart and can't understand the finer points of law. but do try and keep up, don't want people to think you're as dumb a thorin now do you.

by veya_victaous Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:48 am

smelly-bandit wrote:There is a very simple solution to this problem

Don't take payment, give quotes or accept jobs until you have all the details.

If it's a gay marriage or something you're not in favour of??

Simply price yourself out of the market

that is actually the legally correct thing to do Cool

the baker is dumb ass, the store that but the 'Muslim that wont sell alcohol' on checkouts is a dumb ass
the problem is dumb asses

by veya_victaous Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:54 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Talking about going into a curry/kebab house and asking for one of the meat dishes that they have on their menu... but wanting a non halal version to conform with my personal beliefs...!!!

Isn't it wrong for them to deny me service of this... because they say they won't cook me food that goes against their religious beliefs...!!!???

No because it is not on the menu, it is not advertised as a service provided. the baker would not have to decorate the cake if they didn't advertise that decorate the cakes with the customer requested message, A commercial bakery that had pre-decorated cakes would not have to go make a one off gay marriage cake.

Plus the only religious diets that are not allowed Halal are the vegetarian/vegan ones
You're personal beliefs(that you just pull out of your ass) are not protected
only legally recognized religious beliefs are (major organized religions)

by veya_victaous Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:07 am

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

Well gays are asking Christians to go against their beliefs by trying to force them to bake them a cake - why should they be forced when they don't believe it is moral - like I said I have no problem with gays and I would bake you a cake lol - but just because it doesn't bother me doesn't mean other Christians feel the same .

How can you be sure that a Christian wouldn't ask a moslem cake maker to bake them a cake and write Jesus is the son of God ' - its only the same thing as asking a Christian to bake a cake for gays - would you go to a moslem baker and ask them to make you a cake for your wedding ? if not why not and why would it be okay to ask Christians to do it and not moslems ?

You and smelly seem to share the delusion that when we say we expect it of Christians that we don't expect the same of Muslims. I do. Muslims are no different to Christians.

Are cakes with 'Jesus is the son of god' a common thing then VoD? As common as wedding cakes? Didn't think so, so a pointless argument.

Now please show me the verse that says 'thou shalt not bake a gay wedding cake'.

cakes with scripture on are very common .

Show me scripture where it says believers have to accept homosexuals .

"You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 23:9

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.
Hebrews 13:2

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Romans 14:1-4

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
Luke 6:42

there is whole section on accepting those that are different

Accepting Those Who are Different (Romans 15:7-12)
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-100-accepting-those-who-are-different-romans-157-12

NOW show me a bible quote that says you have the right to hold any one in judgment?
it can be fairly argued that by usurping what the bible considers the right of god alone, you are the greater sinner. Evil or Very Mad

by Guest Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:02 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

cakes with scripture on are very common .

Show me scripture where it says believers have to accept homosexuals .

"You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 23:9

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.
Hebrews 13:2

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Romans 14:1-4

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
Luke 6:42

there is whole section on accepting those that are different
Accepting Those Who are Different (Romans 15:7-12)
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-100-accepting-those-who-are-different-romans-157-12

NOW show me a bible quote that says you have the right to hold any one in judgment?
it can be fairly argued that by usurping what the bible considers the right of god alone, you are the greater sinner.

None of the scriptures tell believers bake a cake for same sex weddings - I already told les i have no problem with baking a cake for same sex couples - makes no difference to me . I just point out that he can't force his belief on others just because he says they have to.

You think calling me a sinner offends me ?

It doesn't I know I am but I am forgiven but you won't understand that . I'm accepted I'm forgiven - I am loved by God - for there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus .

by SEXY MAMA Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:05 pm

Eilzel wrote:Strawman argument. I give no free pass to Muslims. Nothing to respond to then really.

Why do they think you will say something different about Muslims.

Lol

by SEXY MAMA Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Talking about going into a curry/kebab house and asking for one of the meat dishes that they have on their menu... but wanting a non halal version to conform with my personal beliefs...!!!

Isn't it wrong for them to deny me service of this... because they say they won't cook me food that goes against their religious beliefs...!!!???

You didn't think clearly when you wrote this post did you!

Razz

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:15 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Strawman argument. I give no free pass to Muslims. Nothing to respond to then really.

Why do they think you will say something different about Muslims.

Lol

It's their safety pass, they can't accept I might have a point so they try and divert attention to Muslims so at least they can get something out of it. Obviously if I'd expect a Christian business to serve gay customers I'd expect the same of Muslims. I don't know why Dibs would think otherwise.

by SEXY MAMA Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:17 pm

Eilzel wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:

Why do they think you will say something different about Muslims.

Lol

It's their safety pass, they can't accept I might have a point so they try and divert attention to Muslims so at least they can get something out of it. Obviously if I'd expect a Christian business to serve gay customers I'd expect the same of Muslims. I don't know why Dibs would think otherwise.

Don't run a business than if you can't abide by the country's law.

Simple.

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:18 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:

cakes with scripture on are very common .

Show me scripture where it says believers have to accept homosexuals .

"You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 23:9

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.
Hebrews 13:2

Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
Romans 14:1-4

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.
Luke 6:42

there is whole section on accepting those that are different
Accepting Those Who are Different (Romans 15:7-12)
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-100-accepting-those-who-are-different-romans-157-12

NOW show me a bible quote that says you have the right to hold any one in judgment?
it can be fairly argued that by usurping what the bible considers the right of god alone, you are the greater sinner.

None of the scriptures tell believers bake a cake for same sex weddings - I already told les i have no problem with baking a cake for same sex couples - makes no difference to me . I just point out that he can't force his belief on others just because he says they have to.

You think calling me a sinner offends me ?

It doesn't I know I am but I am forgiven but you won't understand that . I'm accepted I'm forgiven - I am loved by God - for there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus .

So let's just be clear:

Scripture does NOT tell believers not to bake cakes for gay weddings.
Scripture does NOT tell believers they should bake cakes for gay weddings.

So why can't they just do it? Since scripture doesn't state either way.

Just like:

Scripture does NOT tell believers not to bake cakes for the Chinese/atheists/thrice married.
Scripture does NOT tell believers they should bake cakes for the Chinese/atheists/thrice married.

So they do it.

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:18 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:

Why do they think you will say something different about Muslims.

Lol

It's their safety pass, they can't accept I might have a point so they try and divert attention to Muslims so at least they can get something out of it. Obviously if I'd expect a Christian business to serve gay customers I'd expect the same of Muslims. I don't know why Dibs would think otherwise.

Don't run a business than if you can't abide by the country's law.

Simple.

Exactly

by Guest Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:20 pm

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

The problem with that is, hypothetically, if every person in the country were homophobic, then gay people wouldn't be served anywhere. Then we'd have serious problems. Now of course that isn't going to be the case in modern Britain, but it MIGHT be close to the case in other countries. So you might support my point in another country. If you do, then why apply laws in one place you wouldn't apply at home? The principle is the same.

The point put across by you and didge is absurd.

Here we go again where Eilzel confuses the issue that is being talked about.
This is not about discriminating people becuase they are gay.
That is inherantly wrong, as has also been stated countless times.
This is about forcing the promotion of beliefs that conflict with the person this is forced upon.
You seem to wrongly conflate this is about the gay couple themselves.
Its not, its based on promoting the view of a gay marriage.

How many times does this need to be pointed out to you?
That you are opening up a presedence to force people within business to promote views that conflict with their beliefs. What is worse is you think it is acceptable to do..

Again that is not secualarisn, but Totalitarianism

Now imagine asking an Eastern European who lived through Communism and hated it to make a cake like this.
Do you not think they have a right to say no to making this cake?

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:22 pm

Thorin wrote:
Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

The problem with that is, hypothetically, if every person in the country were homophobic, then gay people wouldn't be served anywhere. Then we'd have serious problems. Now of course that isn't going to be the case in modern Britain, but it MIGHT be close to the case in other countries. So you might support my point in another country. If you do, then why apply laws in one place you wouldn't apply at home? The principle is the same.

The point put across by you and didge is absurd.

Here we go again where Eilzel confuses the issue that is being talked about.
This is not about discriminating people becuase they are gay.
That is inherantly wrong, as has also been stated countless times.
This is about forcing the promotion of beliefs that conflict with the person this is forced upon.
You seem to wrongly conflate this is about the gay couple themselves.
Its not, its based on promoting the view of a gay marriage.

How many times does this need to be pointed out to you?
That you are opening up a presedence to force people within business to promote views that conflict with their beliefs. What is worse is you think it is acceptable to do..

Again that is not secualarisn, but Totalitarianism

Now imagine asking an Eastern European who lived through Communism and hated it to make a cake like this.
Do you not think they have a right to say no to making this cake?

It's not promoting anything if the only people who see the end product are the consumer and the maker.

by Guest Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:23 pm

Eilzel wrote:

It's not promoting anything if the only people who see the end product are the consumer and the maker.

So you are telling me that a Ukranian, who lost their family to starvation under Stalin in the 1930's should be forced to make such a cake?

Seriously?

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:30 pm

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

It's not promoting anything if the only people who see the end product are the consumer and the maker.

So you are telling me that a Ukranian, who lost their family to starvation under Stalin in the 1930's should be forced to make such a cake?

Seriously?

Do you SERIOUSLY think that scenario is likely to crop up? I know you will throw up the 'yes but legally by your logic there would be no legal way they could refuse' etc...

Who would want a soviet style cake?
How many Ukrainian cake makers are there in the UK?
What occasion would require a Soviet style cake?

Yes, I know that isn't the point you are making, but still, you are saying we should allow people to discriminate 'just in case' people start asking for the most bizarre and off the wall cakes know to man.

And again, if this were a country where most people were homophobic do you still think the law should be as you say? And potentially result in gay people have extremely limited options?

by Guest Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:43 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you are telling me that a Ukranian, who lost their family to starvation under Stalin in the 1930's should be forced to make such a cake?

Seriously?

Do you SERIOUSLY think that scenario is likely to crop up? I know you will throw up the 'yes but legally by your logic there would be no legal way they could refuse' etc...

Who would want a soviet style cake?
How many Ukrainian cake makers are there in the UK?
What occasion would require a Soviet style cake?

Yes, I know that isn't the point you are making, but still, you are saying we should allow people to discriminate 'just in case' people start asking for the most bizarre and off the wall cakes know to man.

And again, if this were a country where most people were homophobic do you still think the law should be as you say? And potentially result in gay people have extremely limited options?

Can you not even see how bad your answers are?

I mean how many people would refuse making a cake for a homosexual couple?

I know of only a couple of cases and thus it can happen. So to use the view its unlikley to happen in other scenarios shows how poor your thinking is here.

Its not just Ukranians but countless ethnic groups that suffered under the Soviet Union. We have plenty of Polish people here, so your view is really poor. Just speak to many Polish people what they think of Stalin?

Again this is about forcing people to promote views they disagree with.

Eilzel, you know for a fact I have always and will always support the rights of homosexuals. They should have the same rights as any other hetrosexual, bisexual etc.

What I see here though could end up opening a can of worms by having a precedent that an individual is forced to promote the view off something that as seen by my example. Bring great hurt to them. That they would be forced to create a cake that celebrates one of the most barbaric regimes in history.

Now in reality I think the individual does not have a chance in winning, based on the reality its not really promoting a view on gay marriage, as its simple a cake for a wedding. Though he claims he was happy to serve them any other products he had and has now since stopped making any wedding cakes for anyone. Hence its a very grey area this. Though I think he will lose, but I fear this becoming a precedent for where it really could force people to promote views they strongly disagree with.

My concern here is that you could, by such cases end up seeing peoples rights taken away. On their ability to refuse the customer when they are asked to promote something that conflicts with their belief. Now again if its a buisness, then another employee can fulfill that order. If its just a small buisness, where they are religiously smallminded. Why on earth would that gay couple even want to have their cake made by such a bigot? I seriously would not want to pay someone who had such views about me, would you? I would certainly make it know that the shop was bigoted, which would have far more of an effect than anything else. If the bigot had denied them any service, he would clearly being discriminating against them on being gay. That would be completely wrong.

I understand their frustration, but I fear they have not thought this through and how it could effect others.

by Guest Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:53 pm

And low and beyold, I find such a case where the owner did not find such a birthday cake appropriate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3797823/Adolf-Hitler-denied-his-birthday-cake.html

Now do you agree with the cake shop or the parents?

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:54 pm

Thorin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

So you are telling me that a Ukranian, who lost their family to starvation under Stalin in the 1930's should be forced to make such a cake?

Seriously?

Do you SERIOUSLY think that scenario is likely to crop up? I know you will throw up the 'yes but legally by your logic there would be no legal way they could refuse' etc...

Who would want a soviet style cake?
How many Ukrainian cake makers are there in the UK?
What occasion would require a Soviet style cake?

Yes, I know that isn't the point you are making, but still, you are saying we should allow people to discriminate 'just in case' people start asking for the most bizarre and off the wall cakes know to man.

And again, if this were a country where most people were homophobic do you still think the law should be as you say? And potentially result in gay people have extremely limited options?

Can you not even see how bad your answers are?

I mean how many people would refuse making a cake for a homosexual couple?

I know of only a couple of cases and thus it can happen. So to use the view its unlikley to happen in other scenarios shows how poor your thinking is here.

Its not just Ukranians but countless ethnic groups that suffered under the Soviet Union. We have plenty of Polish people here, so your view is really poor. Just speak to many Polish people what they think of Stalin?

Again this is about forcing people to promote views they disagree with.

Eilzel, you know for a fact I have always and will always support the rights of homosexuals. They should have the same rights as any other hetrosexual, bisexual etc.

What I see here though could end up opening a can of worms by having a precedent that an individual is forced to promote the view off something that as seen by my example. Bring great hurt to them. That they would be forced to create a cake that celebrates one of the most barbaric regimes in history.

Now in reality I think the individual does not have a chance in winning, based on the reality its not really promoting a view on gay marriage, as its simple a cake for a wedding. Though he claims he was happy to serve them any other products he had and has now since stopped making any wedding cakes for anyone. Hence its a very grey area this. Though I think he will lose, but I fear this becoming a precedent for where it really could force people to promote views they strongly disagree with.

My concern here is that you could, by such cases end up seeing peoples rights taken away. On their ability to refuse the customer when they are asked to promote something that conflicts with their belief. Now again if its a buisness, then another employee can fulfill that order. If its just a small buisness, where they are religiously smallminded. Why on earth would that gay couple even want to have their cake made by such a bigot? I seriously would not want to pay someone who had such views about me, would you? I would certainly make it know that the shop was bigoted, which would have far more of an effect than anything else. If the bigot had denied them any service, he would clearly being discriminating against them on being gay. That would be completely wrong.

I understand their frustration, but I fear they have not thought this through and how it could effect others.

So do you think it's promoting anything or not?

I do not think it is. SO there is one difference right off the bat.

And yes, there are many here who suffered during the Soviet Union. However, again, how many times is a Soviet badge EVER going to be a request for a cake?

And of course in the UK not many would refuse a gay couple- but then you are saying we don't need a law because society has changed. Yet you'd support the same law in another country (Russia, perhaps?). So why is the law good for one place but not another? Either the law is a good law or it isn't.

by Eilzel Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:57 pm

Thorin wrote:And low and beyold, I find such a case where the owner did not find such a birthday cake appropriate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3797823/Adolf-Hitler-denied-his-birthday-cake.html

Now do you agree with the cake shop or the parents?

Those parents are cnuts, first and foremost. Who the fuck names their kid that?

But the shop should still make the cake, since that IS the kids name...

If it was the Nazi swastika it'd be different, since that is a symbol of hate.

by Guest Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:57 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Thorin wrote:

Can you not even see how bad your answers are?

I mean how many people would refuse making a cake for a homosexual couple?

I know of only a couple of cases and thus it can happen. So to use the view its unlikley to happen in other scenarios shows how poor your thinking is here.

Its not just Ukranians but countless ethnic groups that suffered under the Soviet Union. We have plenty of Polish people here, so your view is really poor. Just speak to many Polish people what they think of Stalin?

Again this is about forcing people to promote views they disagree with.

Eilzel, you know for a fact I have always and will always support the rights of homosexuals. They should have the same rights as any other hetrosexual, bisexual etc.

What I see here though could end up opening a can of worms by having a precedent that an individual is forced to promote the view off something that as seen by my example. Bring great hurt to them. That they would be forced to create a cake that celebrates one of the most barbaric regimes in history.

Now in reality I think the individual does not have a chance in winning, based on the reality its not really promoting a view on gay marriage, as its simple a cake for a wedding. Though he claims he was happy to serve them any other products he had and has now since stopped making any wedding cakes for anyone. Hence its a very grey area this. Though I think he will lose, but I fear this becoming a precedent for where it really could force people to promote views they strongly disagree with.

My concern here is that you could, by such cases end up seeing peoples rights taken away. On their ability to refuse the customer when they are asked to promote something that conflicts with their belief. Now again if its a buisness, then another employee can fulfill that order. If its just a small buisness, where they are religiously smallminded. Why on earth would that gay couple even want to have their cake made by such a bigot? I seriously would not want to pay someone who had such views about me, would you? I would certainly make it know that the shop was bigoted, which would have far more of an effect than anything else. If the bigot had denied them any service, he would clearly being discriminating against them on being gay. That would be completely wrong.

I understand their frustration, but I fear they have not thought this through and how it could effect others.

So do you think it's promoting anything or not?

I do not think it is. SO there is one difference right off the bat.

And yes, there are many here who suffered during the Soviet Union. However, again, how many times is a Soviet badge EVER going to be a request for a cake?

And of course in the UK not many would refuse a gay couple- but then you are saying we don't need a law because society has changed. Yet you'd support the same law in another country (Russia, perhaps?). So why is the law good for one place but not another? Either the law is a good law or it isn't.

I do not think making a cake for a gay marriage is per say promoting gay marriage.

That is my opinion, which is what is going to be the bases and argument made by the gay couple

Again though he did not refuse them on any other products he sold

So you clearly missed this that I posted

And low and beyold, I find such a case where the owner did not find such a birthday cake appropriate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3797823/Adolf-Hitler-denied-his-birthday-cake.html

Now do you agree with the cake shop or the parents?

by Sponsored content